My Experience with Denver Snuffer

[pjbrownie]

Christ never set up a church the way we think of it. He called witnesses.by showing himself to his apostles. Otherwise those keys could have just been passed down through callings like we do today. It's amazing to think how simple this is, that it takes a charismatic call from the Lord, that they can't simply be passed down from a man.

[Jonesy]

Christ never set up a church the way we think of it. He called witnesses.by showing himself to his apostles. Otherwise those keys could have just been passed down through callings like we do today. It's amazing to think how simple this is, that it takes a charismatic call from the Lord, that they can't simply be passed down from a man.

I would encourage you to search this out. There is plenty of information and revelation to support this. Although each period of the Gospel may be administered a little differently, we have been given the law to administer today. It's established in the Doctrine and Covenants. The keys are with the Church. If there is anyone administering the Gospel outside of the Church, they are not authorized.

These quotes build on that foundation:

Words of Joseph Smith:

I suppose I had established this Church on a permanent foundation when I went to Missouri, and indeed I did so, for if I had been taken away, it would have been enough, but I yet live, and therefore God requires more at my hands.

Also, if applicable:

An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more…You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.(Orson Hyde, “Although Dead, Yet He Speaketh: Joseph Smith’s testimony concerning men being ordained by angels, delivered in the school of the prophets, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the Winter of 1832–3,” Millennial Star 8 no. 9 (20 November 1846), 138–139

[pjbrownie]

There may be temporal sunsets in those statements. Same with all the statements about the church in the D&C. There is no promise that the church would last into perpetuity, and.those statements apply to that time and place. For this one must go to the Lord. And read Isaiah. You will then see that there are prophecies relating to the drifting of the latter day church.

[Jonesy]

There may be temporal sunsets in those statements. Same with all the statements about the church in the D&C. There is no promise that the church would last into perpetuity, and.those statements apply to that time and place. For this one must go to the Lord. And read Isaiah. You will then see that there are prophecies relating to the drifting of the latter day church.

Those prophecies have not yet come to fulfillment. Not one, and you are not justified in saying so. Until the 12 die, you may be on to something.

[pjbrownie]

The second statement is a recollection by Orson Hyde quoting Joseph Smith in 1846. I'll take that with a little grain of salt. The Lord called prophets outside of the priesthood system all the time in the Bible and Book of Mormon so it doesn't fit the scriptural pattern.

[Jonesy]

The second statement is a recollection by Orson Hyde quoting Joseph Smith in 1846. I'll take that with a little grain of salt. The Lord called prophets outside of the priesthood system all the time in the Bible and Book of Mormon so it doesn't fit the scriptural pattern.

I can believe that there was a tribal priesthood, different than when a church is set up. However, whenever a church is established, the church is solely authorized to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. That holds true throughout the scriptures.

[pjbrownie]

That's an interesting theory. Don't know if it's true, but I tend to think God does things more or less the same.

[Jonesy]

That's an interesting theory. Don't know if it's true, but I tend to think God does things more or less the same.

I'll PM you from here later on...

[eddie]

Keys aren't true the way the LDS Church teaches them. They are the most important doctrine taught by the Church but they are foundationally weak. And if they were true, we should all become Catholic because they guarantee leaders that won't lead people astray.

There's a reason why the last testimony principle is the one some people reject. It's because it's based on a sandy foundation. But people will use that shifty principle to reject everything else and that's the dangerous part.

Wow, You know not of what you speak if I understand you correctly. Sad

[eddie]

The second statement is a recollection by Orson Hyde quoting Joseph Smith in 1846. I'll take that with a little grain of salt. The Lord called prophets outside of the priesthood system all the time in the Bible and Book of Mormon so it doesn't fit the scriptural pattern.

The Lord did not call Prophets outside of the Priesthoid system, he was given Priesthood authority by God the Father. Where do you get your information, please document.

[pjbrownie]

Alma, Abinidi, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Lehi, Jesus Christ. These are all examples of men called outside of the existing hierarchy of their day. None had hands laid on their head to give them keys. They did have priesthood but that's different. Read D&C 84 and Alma 13. Human priesthood is preparatory. Heavenly priesthood is given by God. You can't simply get this by getting called and being the oldest in a quorum.

[gclayjr]

pjbrownie,

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Priesthood ... ical_Times

ATRIARCHAL PRIESTHOOD AND MELCHIZEDEK. From Adam to Jacob, the main office of God's priesthood was that of patriarch. Adam, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham administered the Lord's work, established covenants between God and the faithful, recorded their teachings and prophecies, and gave special priesthood blessings. A patriarch could bless his offspring by calling upon the powers of heaven. As he gave the birthright blessing to one of his sons, for instance, the keys and powers of the priesthood were extended to the next generation. In the patriarchal order, under the law of primogeniture, these priesthood rights normally were to be given to the eldest

D&C 84:18-21

7 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

18 And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations, which priesthood also continueth and abideth forever with the priesthood which is after the holiest order of God.

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

Alma - (I assume you mean the elder) was a Priest in King Noah's court

Abinidi - Priesthood existed in King Noah's kingdom - not stating his priesthood line of authority doesn't mean he didn't have it

Ezekiel - The author of the Book of Ezekiel presents himself as Ezekiel, the son of Buzzi, born into a priestly (Kohen) lineage

John The Baptists - father was a priest who served in the temple, while he may not have narrated an event of his father giving him the priesthood, there is no reason to believe it didn't happen

Lehi - Again the priesthood was definitely available, and not narrating his line of authority doesn't mean it didn't exist

Jesus Christ - OK you got me there. I don't think anybody gave Jesus Christ the Priesthood of Jesus Christ with the authority to act in his own name!

Not stating something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. You are on ridiculously thin ice to justify a lack of need for proper authority, because prophets in the Old Testament, and BOM didn't think it necessary to write down the ordination and line of authority in the scriptures.

Regards,

George Clay

[pjbrownie]

Yes priesthood, but not keys. They operated outside of the hierarchy even though they had priesthood. Read Alma 13 and D&C 84 again. Human ordination is merely an invitiation to receive a heavenly ordination. It can happy outside of any hierarchy. We've been told our entire lives that this isn't possible it's not how the Lord works, but I've just shown many instances when it HAS worked that way. Many of these people also happened to have priesthood from within their own organizations (such as Alma who was a priest for King Noah) but they did not have KEYS the way the Church interprets them, meaning that you can't go against your presiding authority. Alma went againt the King so he was violating keys. It would be as if Oaks decided to leave the create his own church.

The rubric for priesthood is righteousness, not keys.

[gclayjr]

pjbrownie,

I guess, I should have read your post more carefully. I would say the reason that they worked outside of the hierarchy was that the "organized" church of those times had fully gone astray. Are you positing that the LDS church has fully gone astray, and the Lord needs to call prophets from outside the hierarchy and rebuild anew?

Regards,

George Clay

[AI2.0]

Alma, Abinidi, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Lehi, Jesus Christ. These are all examples of men called outside of the existing hierarchy of their day. None had hands laid on their head to give them keys. They did have priesthood but that's different. Read D&C 84 and Alma 13. Human priesthood is preparatory. Heavenly priesthood is given by God. You can't simply get this by getting called and being the oldest in a quorum.

Alma, Abinadi, Ezekiel, John the Baptism, Lehi and Jesus Christ were not called outside the existing hierarchy of the TRUE church--and they had something that Denver Snuffer lacks. AUTHORITY.
You are following a false prophet who has no authority.

[pjbrownie]

pjbrownie,

I guess, I should have read your post more carefully. I would say the reason that they worked outside of the hierarchy was that the "organized" church of those times had fully gone astray. Are you positing that the LDS church has fully gone astray, and the Lord needs to call prophets from outside the hierarchy and rebuild anew?

Regards,

George Clay

My point is that it's possible. The only way for you to know is to go to the Lord yourself.

[gclayjr]

pjbrownie,

My point is that it's possible. The only way for you to know is to go to the Lord yourself

Been there, done that. You're wrong!

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

Alma, Abinidi, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Lehi, Jesus Christ. These are all examples of men called outside of the existing hierarchy of their day. None had hands laid on their head to give them keys. They did have priesthood but that's different. Read D&C 84 and Alma 13. Human priesthood is preparatory. Heavenly priesthood is given by God. You can't simply get this by getting called and being the oldest in a quorum.

Alma, Abinadi, Ezekiel, John the Baptism, Lehi and Jesus Christ were not called outside the existing hierarchy of the TRUE church--and they had something that Denver Snuffer lacks. AUTHORITY.
You are following a false prophet who has no authority.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood,

Priesthood is not authority to exercise dominion over someone. Priesthood is power derived from a connection with heaven.

All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself.” (Teachings, pp. 180-181)

Joseph Smith

Priesthood ordination is an invitation to obtain priesthood power. There is no power in an ordination until there is a connection with heaven.

[Silver]

Alma, Abinidi, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Lehi, Jesus Christ. These are all examples of men called outside of the existing hierarchy of their day. None had hands laid on their head to give them keys. They did have priesthood but that's different. Read D&C 84 and Alma 13. Human priesthood is preparatory. Heavenly priesthood is given by God. You can't simply get this by getting called and being the oldest in a quorum.

Alma, Abinadi, Ezekiel, John the Baptism, Lehi and Jesus Christ were not called outside the existing hierarchy of the TRUE church--and they had something that Denver Snuffer lacks. AUTHORITY.
You are following a false prophet who has no authority.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood,

Priesthood is not authority to exercise dominion over someone. Priesthood is power derived from a connection with heaven.

All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself.” (Teachings, pp. 180-181)

Joseph Smith

Priesthood ordination is an invitation to obtain priesthood power. There is no power in an ordination until there is a connection with heaven.

I think you're only pointing out the obvious to AI2.0. Nothing in the comment you quoted hints at unrighteous dominion being the favorable manner of administering the Church.

This, on the other hand, is good:
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... l?lang=eng

While some Church members fell into apostasy in Kirtland, most of them remained faithful and were a great strength to the Church. Relate the following experience from the life of Brigham Young:

While living in Kirtland, Brigham Young was in a meeting where a group of apostates, including some prominent Church leaders, were plotting to depose the Prophet Joseph Smith and put someone else in his place. Brigham Young said of this experience:

“I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet, and I knew it, and that they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased; they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God, they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God, and sink themselves to hell. Many were highly enraged at my decided opposition to their measures. … This meeting was broken up without the apostates being able to unite on any decided measures of opposition” (“History of Brigham Young,” Deseret News, 10 Feb. 1858, 386).

[investigator]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophesy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

[Silver]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophecy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

[investigator]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophesy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

When a convincing response is not available, just resort to name calling. I go in peace.

[Silver]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophecy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

When a convincing response is not available, just resort to name calling. I go in peace.

Are you a male? If that is true and I call you "a man," is that name-calling? If you are apostate and I say so, does that constitute name-calling?

[Alaris]

Try to think of how the brethren would handle such a situation. I doubt they would call someone apostate and just stick to love unfeigned, truth, and invitation.

[Finrock]

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That phrase, "Raca", effectively means, "apostate". We shouldn't go around calling people apostate because we disagree with what they are teaching. There is a process involved in determining if someone is apostate and a single person on the internet proclaiming one to be an apostate is not it. An apostate is determined by a council after hearing all of the evidence, pro and con. It is determined after much pondering and prayer. It is, hopefully, determined by a full council of High Priest who are true to their priesthood covenants and who have nothing but love for the person who stands before them to be judged. This council, in each Stake, determines who is an apostate as far as the Church is concerned.

A person who goes around accusing others of being "apostate" is in danger of the council themselves. And, even if a council of High Priest do judge a person to be apostate, we still should not treat that person with contempt or call them evil and accursed. To do so puts us be in danger of hell fire ourselves.

Instead, we are to:

...love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

-Finrock