I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.jwharton wrote:You have been offered various covenants and to be a part of tangible bodies of flesh and bone.SpeedRacer wrote:I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.
Your choices right now consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth and/or a variety of other unnamed offspring of Adam and Eve.
For example, Denver Snuffer is bringing about one such offspring body with their condemnation of Eve and doing their own ordinances.
There are many, many other unnamed offspring that all feel they are very significant because they receive revelation.
But, all of these offspring bodies besides Seth are overcome by pride and miss out on Adam and Eve's redemption.
If you are looking for your own personal covenant to establish your own spiritual posterity unique to the above mentioned covenants and spiritual lineages, then it would be to become yet another unnamed offspring upon which your spiritual posterity would be branched. Is this really what you want? If it is, then as I see it, you will be throwing yourself away insofar as being a part of the exalted bodies that eternal lives are attained through being a member of.
My Experience with Denver Snuffer
- SpeedRacer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1207
- Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
It came to me through a process of personal revelation while studying the scriptures that I don't yet really understand either.SpeedRacer wrote:I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.jwharton wrote:You have been offered various covenants and to be a part of tangible bodies of flesh and bone.SpeedRacer wrote:I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.
Your choices right now consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth and/or a variety of other unnamed offspring of Adam and Eve.
For example, Denver Snuffer is bringing about one such offspring body with their condemnation of Eve and doing their own ordinances.
There are many, many other unnamed offspring that all feel they are very significant because they receive revelation.
But, all of these offspring bodies besides Seth are overcome by pride and miss out on Adam and Eve's redemption.
If you are looking for your own personal covenant to establish your own spiritual posterity unique to the above mentioned covenants and spiritual lineages, then it would be to become yet another unnamed offspring upon which your spiritual posterity would be branched. Is this really what you want? If it is, then as I see it, you will be throwing yourself away insofar as being a part of the exalted bodies that eternal lives are attained through being a member of.
Somehow I went through what you could call a quickening experience similar to what Joseph Smith Jr. described.
The Book of Mormon also indicates that Lehi went through a similar process when he had his visionary experiences.
It would be rather difficult to explain what I experienced but burning in the bosom would be an extreme understatement.
I was so physically overcome by the experience that I was largely bedridden for almost 3 weeks before I could function normally.
But, the experience was an entirely spiritual one with many visions and sensations that I can hardly describe.
It was way beyond having a full body orgasm that made my entire framework vibrating due to the energy surging in me.
Joseph Smith Jr. would talk about how his bones would quake and this was definitely a part of what I experienced.
After this experience I became able to see everything in an entirely new way, like Saul turning to Paul by way of his experience.
Alma the younger also likely tasted this as he described it as being a most exquisite joy that filled his entire soul with light, etc.
There are several other things revealed to me during this and other subsequent aftershocks, so to speak, as well.
But, so far, in all of my efforts to gain audience with the current covenant bodies with my findings, I have been perceived as evil.
I am simply awaiting having a role in Adam and Eve's redemption by way of the restitution of all things to Them through Seth's ministration.
- SpeedRacer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1207
- Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
It came to me through a process of personal revelation while studying the scriptures that I don't yet really understand either.jwharton wrote: I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.
Somehow I went through what you could call a quickening experience similar to what Joseph Smith Jr. described.
The Book of Mormon also indicates that Lehi went through a similar process when he had his visionary experiences.
It would be rather difficult to explain what I experienced but burning in the bosom would be an extreme understatement.
I was so physically overcome by the experience that I was largely bedridden for almost 3 weeks before I could function normally.
But, the experience was an entirely spiritual one with many visions and sensations that I can hardly describe.
It was way beyond having a full body orgasm that made my entire framework vibrating due to the energy surging in me.
Joseph Smith Jr. would talk about how his bones would quake and this was definitely a part of what I experienced.
After this experience I became able to see everything in an entirely new way, like Saul turning to Paul by way of his experience.
Alma the younger also likely tasted this as he described it as being a most exquisite joy that filled his entire soul with light, etc.
There are several other things revealed to me during this and other subsequent aftershocks, so to speak, as well.
But, so far, in all of my efforts to gain audience with the current covenant bodies with my findings, I have been perceived as evil.
I am simply awaiting having a role in Adam and Eve's redemption by way of the restitution of all things to Them through Seth's ministration.[/quote]
Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
- Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.jwharton wrote:The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
For me it is very painful to watch.Mark wrote:The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.jwharton wrote:The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
I am grateful to see members who finally loosen their necks and who do not deny the hard truths of how polluted and out of order things are.
But, when they come through this awakening, they still have their hearts tested to see if they will extend the same grace as was extended to them.
Sadly, instead of people realizing they are just as much at fault as anyone for how polluted things are...
they almost immediately turn against those they were formerly among and happy to be a part of and become prideful.
We have to be able to cross all 3 hurdles of:
1) Being willing to sincerely consider hard truths.
2) Refraining from denying hard truths when we are shown them.
3) Maintaining a soft and charitable heart in light of the hard truths we now understand.
It seems like at every step of the way that people are failing in one way or another.
The Lord is not looking for a snarky and prideful remnant.
The Lord wants a remnant who stands on holy ground in grace and humility.
You are correct that the movements like the Denver Snuffer one are hypocritical.
They claim to want to "preserve the restoration" but in effect they simply want to usurp it entirely.
Those in the Denver Snuffer movement are really not much more than yet another sect of Christianity.
- Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Perhaps you might be of help to those who are thinking of being part of this "preserve the restoration" movement or any of the other movements intent on separating them from the body. If they can just pause to consider the ramifications of what you are saying it might cause them to question their direction they are taking. That would be a very worthwhile thing. Thanks for the efforts.jwharton wrote:For me it is very painful to watch.Mark wrote:The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.jwharton wrote:The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
I am grateful to see members who finally loosen their necks and who do not deny the hard truths of how polluted and out of order things are.
But, when they come through this awakening, they still have their hearts tested to see if they will extend the same grace as was extended to them.
Sadly, instead of people realizing they are just as much at fault as anyone for how polluted things are...
they almost immediately turn against those they were formerly among and happy to be a part of and become prideful.
We have to be able to cross all 3 hurdles of:
1) Being willing to sincerely consider hard truths.
2) Refraining from denying hard truths when we are shown them.
3) Maintaining a soft and charitable heart in light of the hard truths we now understand.
It seems like at every step of the way that people are failing in one way or another.
The Lord is not looking for a snarky and prideful remnant.
The Lord wants a remnant who stands on holy ground in grace and humility.
You are correct that the movements like the Denver Snuffer one are hypocritical.
They claim to want to "preserve the restoration" but in effect they simply want to usurp it entirely.
Those in the Denver Snuffer movement are really not much more than yet another sect of Christianity.
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Thank you for recognizing the fine line I am attempting to tread.Mark wrote:Perhaps you might be of help to those who are thinking of being part of this "preserve the restoration" movement or any of the other movements intent on separating them from the body. If they can just pause to consider the ramifications of what you are saying it might cause them to question their direction they are taking. That would be a very worthwhile thing. Thanks for the efforts.
I'm grateful to see evidence that my ability to communicate it is improving.
- SpeedRacer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1207
- Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Knowledge saves a man. You must search into all heights and depths. It is important to know if what has been revealed to you is a height or a depth. Sometimes depths are revealed and we take them for heights. When we improperly do such a thing, we can lead ourselves astray. I have found gaining the broadest view of things is the most helpful for me. I have investigated many forms of Christianity and other religions. It is amazing the amount of similarities there are.
Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked. I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation. Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate. Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it. How few were preserved in the flood? How few survived the destruction among the Nephites? How few were found faithful in any of the beginning phases with Joseph Smith?
God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.
Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.
As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.
I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.
Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked. I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation. Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate. Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it. How few were preserved in the flood? How few survived the destruction among the Nephites? How few were found faithful in any of the beginning phases with Joseph Smith?
God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.
Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.
As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.
I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Please give an example.SpeedRacer wrote:Knowledge saves a man. You must search into all heights and depths. It is important to know if what has been revealed to you is a height or a depth. Sometimes depths are revealed and we take them for heights. When we improperly do such a thing, we can lead ourselves astray.
There have been many for a long time who have been raising up truths that the mainstream has been moving away from.SpeedRacer wrote:Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked.
Denver is only becoming a "big deal" because he has decided to put himself forward and posture himself as a "big deal".
Other than that, he has actually offered relatively little truth and light of value compared to several others out there.
He just has a particular knack for using a special kind of sophistry I don't see very often that manipulates the unwary.
This is an underhanded slam to those who have entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation.SpeedRacer wrote:I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation.
This is the very same smarmy subtlety that Denver uses to slam the church and disaffect people toward it. I rebuke it.
I am also certain Joseph Smith Jr. would soundly rebuke this attack on everything he stood for accomplishing.
You know not what you mock. The gate is guarded by Him personally.SpeedRacer wrote:Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate.
Nobody receives the ordinances of salvation except that He is in approval.
Nobody is received into covenant with Him without His direct approval.
Who is He? He is the flesh and bone body of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
We are members of this Body literally so do not discount that.
You never accepted your responsibility and authority.
You have taken your covenants for granted.
No wonder you became "dead" to the body.
One of the limiting factors of being among the FEW is because if you have not entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation then you will not be among these few. And, even among those who do, at some point many of them succumb to temptation to walk away from the body as if they have outgrown it and they are better than it and that it is polluted and so on. You do not walk away from your covenants that connect you to the body and get to be able to remain among the FEW.SpeedRacer wrote:Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it.
The taint of Denver Snuffer's prideful posture towards the Church is strong in your words here.SpeedRacer wrote: God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.
Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.
As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.
I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.
I discern several of your foot prints that are departed from the straight and narrow way.
Eve is the Mother of all Living and, despite Her pollution, She remains the only vehicle the FEW shall get to exaltation in.
The salvation you are preaching and the spirit you are drawing people towards is not the Spirit that will lead you to exaltation.
- Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6706
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
jwharton, I think you've explained this idea of covenant bodies better than you have in the past - I finally understand what you are saying. Or, maybe I just am taking more time to go through your posts.
I have a question though. In another thread you also talked about those who you believe are acting like Abel, Cain, and Seth, and I remember thinking that I wasn't so sure if I agreed with you about who was acting like Cain. Can you tell me about those groups again? I assume those labels came to you in the inspiration you received, but did you also see which type of people were under each name or did you put that together in your mind afterward?
I have a question though. In another thread you also talked about those who you believe are acting like Abel, Cain, and Seth, and I remember thinking that I wasn't so sure if I agreed with you about who was acting like Cain. Can you tell me about those groups again? I assume those labels came to you in the inspiration you received, but did you also see which type of people were under each name or did you put that together in your mind afterward?
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3067
- Location: USA
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
It would probably be best to do this in a new thread.Sarah wrote:jwharton, I think you've explained this idea of covenant bodies better than you have in the past - I finally understand what you are saying. Or, maybe I just am taking more time to go through your posts.
I have a question though. In another thread you also talked about those who you believe are acting like Abel, Cain, and Seth, and I remember thinking that I wasn't so sure if I agreed with you about who was acting like Cain. Can you tell me about those groups again? I assume those labels came to you in the inspiration you received, but did you also see which type of people were under each name or did you put that together in your mind afterward?
Would you please go ahead and start one for that purpose?
- Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6706
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Sure.jwharton wrote:It would probably be best to do this in a new thread.Sarah wrote:jwharton, I think you've explained this idea of covenant bodies better than you have in the past - I finally understand what you are saying. Or, maybe I just am taking more time to go through your posts.
I have a question though. In another thread you also talked about those who you believe are acting like Abel, Cain, and Seth, and I remember thinking that I wasn't so sure if I agreed with you about who was acting like Cain. Can you tell me about those groups again? I assume those labels came to you in the inspiration you received, but did you also see which type of people were under each name or did you put that together in your mind afterward?
Would you please go ahead and start one for that purpose?
- SpeedRacer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1207
- Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.
Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Quit soling what I say with some spray of Denver Snuffer. You use petty derogatory and false claims to try and debunk what I am saying for your grovel of a gospel. In my opinion, your insight did not come from heaven, I do not see anyway to line it up with the scriptures. I believe you have been deceived.jwharton wrote:Please give an example.SpeedRacer wrote:Knowledge saves a man. You must search into all heights and depths. It is important to know if what has been revealed to you is a height or a depth. Sometimes depths are revealed and we take them for heights. When we improperly do such a thing, we can lead ourselves astray.
There have been many for a long time who have been raising up truths that the mainstream has been moving away from.SpeedRacer wrote:Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked.
Denver is only becoming a "big deal" because he has decided to put himself forward and posture himself as a "big deal".
Other than that, he has actually offered relatively little truth and light of value compared to several others out there.
He just has a particular knack for using a special kind of sophistry I don't see very often that manipulates the unwary.
This is an underhanded slam to those who have entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation.SpeedRacer wrote:I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation.
This is the very same smarmy subtlety that Denver uses to slam the church and disaffect people toward it. I rebuke it.
I am also certain Joseph Smith Jr. would soundly rebuke this attack on everything he stood for accomplishing.
You know not what you mock. The gate is guarded by Him personally.SpeedRacer wrote:Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate.
Nobody receives the ordinances of salvation except that He is in approval.
Nobody is received into covenant with Him without His direct approval.
Who is He? He is the flesh and bone body of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
We are members of this Body literally so do not discount that.
You never accepted your responsibility and authority.
You have taken your covenants for granted.
No wonder you became "dead" to the body.
One of the limiting factors of being among the FEW is because if you have not entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation then you will not be among these few. And, even among those who do, at some point many of them succumb to temptation to walk away from the body as if they have outgrown it and they are better than it and that it is polluted and so on. You do not walk away from your covenants that connect you to the body and get to be able to remain among the FEW.SpeedRacer wrote:Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it.
The taint of Denver Snuffer's prideful posture towards the Church is strong in your words here.SpeedRacer wrote: God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.
Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.
As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.
I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.
I discern several of your foot prints that are departed from the straight and narrow way.
Eve is the Mother of all Living and, despite Her pollution, She remains the only vehicle the FEW shall get to exaltation in.
The salvation you are preaching and the spirit you are drawing people towards is not the Spirit that will lead you to exaltation.
Had you read the Book of Mormon you would have read about the experience of the Brother of Jared. He was redeemed from the fall, personally by Christ, for the things that he knew. It was knowledge that saved him. Go over and read it in Ether 3.
I am sorry that you carry so much malcontent for what Snuffer says. You have so much ill, you are in danger of hell fire, repent. Forgive the man of anything you think he has done to you personally. Just because it was the first time I heard an intelligent dissent does not mean I discount anyone before. I was talking about my personal experience. That is the title of this thread. I am sharing it. You do not get to tell me what my experience was and was not. You, like the great accuser, accuse me again of under handing slamming people. You accuse me of a great many things, over and over again. Please cease. I again was telling of my personal experience and you were trying to interpret it, please stop it.
All truth is measured by the scriptures, that was the Joseph Smith way. You are telling me that people are saved through Adam and Eve and all sorts of other things. I cannot find such a gospel in the Book of Mormon. They all preach salvation through the atonement of Christ and explain what that atonement is and how we leverage it. We were condemned, as was needed, by the fall, for by the fall came death and by death the atonement and by the atonement an opportunity to progress. In Adam we all die, in Christ we are made alive. God is no respecter of persons, read the scriptures, read Joseph Smith. He does not save different people in different ways, the requirements are the same for all. Christ is the prototype of the saved man, not Adam. Adam would only be the prototype inasmuch as he exactly conformed to Christ. We could be the prototype inasmuch as we perfectly conform to what he laid out. As we do that we find faith, faith is true power unto salvation, it is how we work it out, as faith without works is dead, so there is no saving work without faith. Faith is a specific power brought by thought, knowledge and revelation. I suggest you go back to the basics, learn those and then move on to true knowledge. Knowledge either way is power, but we must know the source, and God has given us a measuring stick to measure what we have.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
If the shoe fits... I call it like I see it.SpeedRacer wrote:Quit soling what I say with some spray of Denver Snuffer.
How about you base your claim on what you actually see instead of on what you can't see?SpeedRacer wrote:You use petty derogatory and false claims to try and debunk what I am saying for your grovel of a gospel. In my opinion, your insight did not come from heaven, I do not see anyway to line it up with the scriptures. I believe you have been deceived.
Admitting you are blind to what I am endeavoring to share doesn't exactly make your opinion of it all that credible.
The insight I have is purely from the scriptures so perhaps you should chill out and do some rumination here.
I am fully aware of the experience of the Brother of Jared.SpeedRacer wrote:Had you read the Book of Mormon you would have read about the experience of the Brother of Jared. He was redeemed from the fall, personally by Christ, for the things that he knew. It was knowledge that saved him. Go over and read it in Ether 3.
It does not pose any conflict with what I have shared.
He lived at a time when there were different circumstances than we have today.
I have nothing against Denver personally.SpeedRacer wrote:I am sorry that you carry so much malcontent for what Snuffer says.
You have so much ill, you are in danger of hell fire, repent.
Forgive the man of anything you think he has done to you personally.
But, when I see dear friends and families turning sour and treating the church arrogantly and condemning it and ultimately being excommunicated from it and acting like it is no big deal and that it doesn't matter and on and on... all the while actually doing nothing good to bring the needed correction in the church so that it can come out from under condemnation and be cleansed and redeemed, it is a bit heart-breaking to me.
And, when I take the time to identify the toxic material in his sermons that is causing this damaging pride I call it out passionately.
False doctrine needs to be examined and exposed with the light of the truth and that is what I am endeavoring to do.
So, ask yourself, why do you try and construe my sincere efforts to do this as being "ill" and "malcontent"?
This is just a cheap attempt to personally denigrate me instead of forthrightly addressing the substance of my principles.
I have no recollection of trying to dictate what your experience was. You are injecting that in.SpeedRacer wrote:Just because it was the first time I heard an intelligent dissent does not mean I discount anyone before. I was talking about my personal experience. That is the title of this thread. I am sharing it. You do not get to tell me what my experience was and was not. You, like the great accuser, accuse me again of under handing slamming people. You accuse me of a great many things, over and over again. Please cease. I again was telling of my personal experience and you were trying to interpret it, please stop it.
But, what I will do is call you out if I get the same foul stench of Denver's toxic doctrines.
The Lord peeled back a veil and opened up a view of the scriptures for me that you now reject.SpeedRacer wrote:All truth is measured by the scriptures, that was the Joseph Smith way. You are telling me that people are saved through Adam and Eve and all sorts of other things. I cannot find such a gospel in the Book of Mormon. They all preach salvation through the atonement of Christ and explain what that atonement is and how we leverage it. We were condemned, as was needed, by the fall, for by the fall came death and by death the atonement and by the atonement an opportunity to progress. In Adam we all die, in Christ we are made alive. God is no respecter of persons, read the scriptures, read Joseph Smith. He does not save different people in different ways, the requirements are the same for all. Christ is the prototype of the saved man, not Adam. Adam would only be the prototype inasmuch as he exactly conformed to Christ. We could be the prototype inasmuch as we perfectly conform to what he laid out. As we do that we find faith, faith is true power unto salvation, it is how we work it out, as faith without works is dead, so there is no saving work without faith. Faith is a specific power brought by thought, knowledge and revelation. I suggest you go back to the basics, learn those and then move on to true knowledge. Knowledge either way is power, but we must know the source, and God has given us a measuring stick to measure what we have.
It is the contents of what can be seen behind this veil that exposes many false doctrines.
In no way shape or form have I preached anything contrary to the atonement of Christ.
In case you didn't notice it is our covenant with Christ that is the center of my whole paradigm.
But, you have chosen to take my efforts to share this information as if I was some kind of enemy to you.
Also, I'm not talking about just salvation here. Even non-Mormon Christians will attain salvation through their faith.
I am talking about how and in what manner some FEW of us will be able to become exalted in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.
Perhaps exaltation is no longer something that is of interest to you and if so I'm certainly not going to waste my breath trying to convince you otherwise.
Last edited by jwharton on April 13th, 2016, 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
JW I have followed this discussion with interest. While I understand your argument at least in general terms it seems to me that that it is the same argument that an observant Jew might have made to Peter or John after the Crucifixion. His argument would have been yes the religious practices have become corrupt and yes a cleansing may be necessary and yes our leaders may be in error but at its essence this is the organization that the dispensation head Moses set up. By what authority do you break the covenants you made and leave the group who are Abraham's seed? How can you argue that God has revealed to you something he never revealed to Moses or Abraham? Moses never said that the law would be changed and now you are changing it and encouraging people to break their covenants and wander away from the truths taught by Moses. Substitute the LDS church for Jewery and you our hypothetical Jew and you are making precisely the same argument are you not ?
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
I understand where you are coming from.boo wrote:JW I have followed this discussion with interest. While I understand your argument at least in general terms it seems to me that that it is the same argument that an observant Jew might have made to Peter or John after the Crucifixion. His argument would have been yes the religious practices have become corrupt and yes a cleansing may be necessary and yes our leaders may be in error but at its essence this is the organization that the dispensation head Moses set up. By what authority do you break the covenants you made and leave the group who are Abraham's seed? How can you argue that God has revealed to you something he never revealed to Moses or Abraham? Moses never said that the law would be changed and now you are changing it and encouraging people to break their covenants and wander away from the truths taught by Moses. Substitute the LDS church for Jewery and you our hypothetical Jew and you are making precisely the same argument are you not ?
I'll address it later when I have more time.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
I understand this point of view but there is a crucial difference that obviates this.boo wrote:JW I have followed this discussion with interest. While I understand your argument at least in general terms it seems to me that that it is the same argument that an observant Jew might have made to Peter or John after the Crucifixion.
The answer is that I do not and the reason why is because of the narrative that is in motion now is different than back then.boo wrote:His argument would have been yes the religious practices have become corrupt and yes a cleansing may be necessary and yes our leaders may be in error but at its essence this is the organization that the dispensation head Moses set up. By what authority do you break the covenants you made and leave the group who are Abraham's seed? How can you argue that God has revealed to you something he never revealed to Moses or Abraham? Moses never said that the law would be changed and now you are changing it and encouraging people to break their covenants and wander away from the truths taught by Moses. Substitute the LDS church for Jewery and you our hypothetical Jew and you are making precisely the same argument are you not ?
What is currently happening now is real tangible and literal beings of flesh and bone as Adam and Eve were constituted in 1830 and their lifespan is at least another 900 years or so from then so they are very young yet in their age. And, we also have the narrative that talks about Adam and Eve falling into transgression and being driven out into the wilderness and being put under the buffeting of the adversary until such a time as they are cleansed and redeemed. This part of the cycle is the end and the beginning. It is a period of time in the creation that is unique to any other time. So, there are partial likenesses at other times but there isn't another time when there is a fullness.
The means by which Eve is cleansed and redeemed is She is literally purged of the polluted members of Her body and She enters into Her exaltation.
In all other periods of time there is no recovery and restitution or redemption from apostasy but this time there is a restitution of all things.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
You know I had thought I had a least a basic understanding of your complex and to my mind confusing theology . But this claim completely befuddles me . However don't bother to explain. My interest in and tolerance for your remarkably novel theological musings has suddenly evaporated . Thanks for the ride thoughjwharton wrote:
What is currently happening now is real tangible and literal beings of flesh and bone as Adam and Eve were constituted in 1830 and their lifespan is at least another 900 years or so from then so they are very young yet in their age. s.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
No problem Boo. I've determined to no longer participate here.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Denver is just a guy who turned over some stones of faith and encountered Jesus.
And his Gnosticism gets on top of him. He's more Mormon than Russell M Nelson, that's for sure. Poor guy.
I like his PTHG book. It's pretty good medicine for people who are anxious that the banality of LDS dogmatism is somehow an actual representation of heaven. Helps you get free, at least mentally.
But yeah, he's very heavily Gnostic and I don't think it serves him well.
And his Gnosticism gets on top of him. He's more Mormon than Russell M Nelson, that's for sure. Poor guy.
I like his PTHG book. It's pretty good medicine for people who are anxious that the banality of LDS dogmatism is somehow an actual representation of heaven. Helps you get free, at least mentally.
But yeah, he's very heavily Gnostic and I don't think it serves him well.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
I want to share this link to the blogpost below because it captures the mental trap in which I found myself. I can't tell you enough how it was a miracle that I've found my way back to the Church.
https://www.sixteensmallstones.org/apos ... ectualism/
Additionally, I want to add Pres. Uchtdorf's five testimonies that always accompany the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from his 2006 talk, The Power of a Personal Testimony:
There are dangerous doctrines being promoted. Two in particular I see:
https://www.sixteensmallstones.org/apos ... ectualism/
Additionally, I want to add Pres. Uchtdorf's five testimonies that always accompany the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from his 2006 talk, The Power of a Personal Testimony:
- God lives. He is our loving Father in Heaven, and we are His children.
- Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and the Savior of the world.
- Joseph Smith is the prophet of God through whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored in the latter days.
- The Book of Mormon is the word of God.
- President Thomas S. Monson, his counselors, and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are the prophets, seers, and revelators in our day.
There are dangerous doctrines being promoted. Two in particular I see:
- The dismissal of the importance of the keys in the Church (whether they don't matter, they don't have them, or lack some)
- The over-emphasis of the Spirit, while at the same time dismissing the importance of any appendage of the restoration (church, apostles and prophets, ordinances, temples, etc.). Don't get me wrong, the Spirit IS important, but will stick to all the truths of the restoration.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
Keys aren't true the way the LDS Church teaches them. They are the most important doctrine taught by the Church but they are foundationally weak. And if they were true, we should all become Catholic because they guarantee leaders that won't lead people astray.
There's a reason why the last testimony principle is the one some people reject. It's because it's based on a sandy foundation. But people will use that shifty principle to reject everything else and that's the dangerous part.
There's a reason why the last testimony principle is the one some people reject. It's because it's based on a sandy foundation. But people will use that shifty principle to reject everything else and that's the dangerous part.
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer
As long as the Twelve are alive, the Church is true and the keys remain. It is actually a pretty solid foundation of the restoration (prophets and apostles). We see that the church Christ set up fell when the Twelve died.pjbrownie wrote: ↑June 25th, 2017, 8:55 am Keys aren't true the way the LDS Church teaches them. They are the most important doctrine taught by the Church but they are foundationally weak. And if they were true, we should all become Catholic because they guarantee leaders that won't lead people astray.
There's a reason why the last testimony principle is the one some people reject. It's because it's based on a sandy foundation. But people will use that shifty principle to reject everything else and that's the dangerous part.