Halloween is of the Occult.

For discussion of secret combinations (political, economic, spiritual, religious, etc.) (Ether 8:18-25.)
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SempiternalHarbinger
captain of 1,000
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Location: Salt Lake City, Ut

Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

OK A Random Phrase and Coachmarc, I think you two will at least enjoy this, or at least appreciate/understand it a bit of it since we have discussed the role and significance of the planet Saturn (Kolob) in all Ancient cultures as well as temple symbolismin the past. Not trying to high jack this thread in any way. I just think it's really silly when people call Christmas evil. Especially since the Salt Lake temple (ALL modern temples) reflects many Christmas (pagan) symbols. Hopefully this will be informative or at least get one to investigate further. I will tie in the origins of Christmas in relation to the temple in a minute but I need to set it up first..

Our temples are loaded with pagan symbolism from the very bottom to the very top, both inside and outside, as do many if not all ancient temples from all over the world. This is one thing our modern temples have in common with all ancient temples. Add to that the Salt Lake Temple has 184 Saturn Stones as well as many other symbols that trace back and tie into ancient Saturn worship. Which many Christmas traditions originated from. :-$ :-w :-? (If any mods feel this deserve it's own topic they are free to do so and move it.)

It is said the temple is a small scale of the universe. Hugh Nibley is one of my heroes and he makes the point that our modern temple iconography shares that of ALL ancient temples, from all over the world. His book Temple and Cosmos says it all. ( they are interchangeable) He correctly identifies the one common denominator between all kingdoms and ancient temples is cosmic. In other words... weather its the Saturn temples of Rome, the Kronos (Saturn) temples of Greece, ancient Egypt, ect...ect... all these ancient temples have one thing in common with each other and with our modern temples..... they ALL depict the heavens. Nibley says, the temple is the core of all civilizations. The problem is the heavens of old are so vastly different than today nobody recognize it. It is in fact many symbols are regarded as Alien, not of this world.. Thus so much confusion.

The symbols employed on today’s temples share a common origin with the symbolism employed in ancient temples the world over. Not just temples but civilizations. No matter the culture, no matter the structure, they were all erected to memorialize (remember or reconstruct) the realities in Earth’s ancient heavens as much as the heavens we have now. Additionally, temples have always incorporated features of the current arrangement of the heavens when the temple was built as well. In that regard, temples are an amalgam of the ancient heavens and the present heavens. This, Nibley reiterates time and time and again. ( So all ancient temples depict the "old heavens" as well as the current heavens. So it would on only be right and truly a restoration of the old church if our current and modern temples to also depict the Heavens.)

Failure to acknowledge, as the Apostle Peter taught, that “the world that then was ... perished” (2 Peter 3:6) and “the heavens and the earth, which are now” (2 Peter 3:7) are vastly different from the originals has created endless confusion in the sciences and in our understanding of scripture and temple iconography.

Scholars readily acknowledge the astral or cosmic connections in ancient temples. Alignments with the equinox, solstices, constellations, the Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars and other celestial objects are the subjects of endless discussion.

The book of Abraham and the Papyri it was translated from is loaded with ancient myths,symbols and gods.. Yet when one reads Joseph Smith's explanation of the papyri it's all about celestial objects. Planets and Stars. Kolob...Oliblish...Raukeeyang...Enish-go-ondosh...Kae-e-vanrash..ect.. These were celestial objects (planets) that were apart of this earths creation.

Who was the ancient Egyptian sun god? Many historians will unanimously say Ra. That Ra was both the physical sun we see today and the sun-god.

And yet, if one were to conduct an in-depth study of this Egyptian "physical Sun" and "sun-god" one comes to the realization that, except for the fact that Ra shone brightly in the sky, the characteristics and even motions attributed to this entity do not fit the role of the Sun we observe today in any way.

For example, Ra was often lauded as "Lord of the Circles" and as "he who entereth [or liveth] in the circle." He was described as "the sender forth of light into his circle" and as the "Governor of [his] circle."

What is the Circle that the hymns allude to? Egyptologists will immediately say that the Circle of which the hymns speak was the Egyptian Duat (or Tuat), a word that means "the Underworld." That may be so, but Egyptologists since the time of Wallis Budge have conceded that the Duat was away beyond Earth and in the sky. The Duat as a ring surrounding a celestial object comes from the hieroglyphic determinative of the name "Duat" itself, depicted in the texts as a star surrounded by a band or circle. It is thus obvious that whatever Ra signified it was a celestial body that resided within a circle or band or ring.

Does the Sun today send forth its rays into a circle? Does it reside in a ring? NO it doesn't!

Under certain conditions, a ring known as a parhelion (sundog), formed through atmospheric refraction, surrounds the Sun. But not only is this apparition too rare for Ra to have earned the title of "Governor of his circle" and/or "Lord of the Circles" it is also a phenomenon that is restricted to the NORTHERN REGIONS and hardly, if ever, seen at the latitude of Egypt.

The Egyptians themselves attributed Ra to the god Atum and in fact, this deity is often referred to in Egyptian documents as Atum-Ra. This god bore a specific and strange characteristic - Atum was honored as a SUN OF NIGHT.

Students of Egyptian mythology have long grappled with the exact meaning that lies hidden beneath this strange characteristic of Atum. The best that Wallis Budge could offer by way of an explanation was that Atum was the Sun after it had set. By this he meant to imply that the Egyptians worshipped the Sun even when it was absent from the sky. Sun worship at night, however, makes for an incongruous institution.

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As seen above, the god Ra is often surmounted with a red or golden disc that is not inappropriate if the Sun is truly being represented. In the liturgies dedicated to him, however, Ra is described as having shed a green, rather than a golden, light: "Thou hast come with thy splendours," states a hymn to Ra, "and thou hast made heaven and earth bright with thy rays of pure emerald light."

Old Egyptian Pyramid Texts make it clear that the sun god Ra‘ was located in the CIRCUMPOLAR REGION of the sky. This is odd considering that the sun never ventures close to the pole. Even stranger is the tendency to place this sun god on the summit of an elongated object. At Hermopolis, the sun god was represented as standing on the primordial mound, which was the Egyptian version of the COSMIC MOUNTAIN as the first object to be created. At Heliopolis, the sun god was held to rise daily from the fire that burned at dawn on the top of the holy sky-filling Ashet- or Persea-tree. In this capacity, the sun god was better known as the Benu or Bennu, the solar bird rendered Phoenix in Greek. And an informative, yet cryptic paean to Ra‘ composed in Thebes attributes the cycle of day and night to the sun god's entry and exit of his "circle". The reference to the deity's outstretched wings shows that this circle must be thought of as the ring one sees in the image of the winged disc. Moreover, this winged disc is located on top of a pillar:

"Thou spreadest out thy wings …
… thou performest thy acts of creation in thy Great Disk.
Praise be unto thee, O Ra, exalted Power, thou World-soul who
resteth on his high place …
… Thou sendest light unto thy Circle, thou makest darkness to be in thy
Circle …thou enterest thy Circle...
… Thou goest in and comest out, thou comest out and goest in to thy
hidden Circle …
… lord of souls who art in the house of thine obelisk … Sphinx-god,
Obelisk-god …"

There is no escaping the fact that the composer of this hymn thought of Ra‘ as the winged red disc placed motionless "on his high place", the obelisk. This means that the subject of veneration here and in those passages in the Pyramid Texts was another sun than the ordinary sun which crosses the sky. It appears that the earliest form of the sun god worshipped by the Egyptians was a radiant, stationary sphere placed atop a glowing column. Only in subsequent times was this sun god assimilated to our revolving sun.

The Greeks called it the god "Helios". The Romans called it "Sol". These familiar figures have a long history, and the more one learns about their links to the earlier cultures, the more a mystery of origins comes into focus. Joseph Smith found it very important to be learned in these areas. Long before Greek and Roman times, the Egyptians worshipped the luminary Atum or Ra, just as the Sumerians honored Utu and the Babylonians the god Shamash. Astronomers and priests celebrated this light of heaven as the "Universal Monarch," the "father" of civilization and the celestial prototype of kings.

There is no mystery as to the present astronomical associations of these figures. But more archaic traditions, coming from many and diverse cultures, identify the great "sun" gods with the motionless center of heaven, the celestial pole.

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They speak of a primeval sun, an exemplary or "best" sun, ruling before the present sun. The god's station was the summit of the world axis, from which he ultimately fell in a heaven-altering catastrophe. Perhaps the best known story is the Greek account of Kronos, founder of the Golden Age,(garden of Eden) eventually driven from his seat at the top of the world by his son Zeus.

To what body did these strange traditions refer? Today we take for granted that the ancient words we translate as "helios" and "sol" originated as references to the Sun that illuminates our every day. In many languages the words for this axial figure did indeed become the words for the Sun. But the later identity could not obscure the more archaic idea--of a former, stationary light at the pole, whose every feature defies any identification with the Sun in our sky today.

As strange as it may seem, early astronomical traditions identify the "primeval sun" as the PLANET SATURN, the distant planet which the alchemists called the "best sun" and which the Babylonians, the founders of astronomy, identified as the exemplary light of heaven, the "sun"-god Shamash. ("Shamash is the planet Saturn", the astronomical texts say.) In archaic copies of Plato's Timaeus, the word for the planet Saturn is Helios, the "sun" god. Popular Greek traditions identified Saturn as Kronos, alter ego of Helios, and Kronos is said to have ruled "over the pole". But only a handful of scholars have bothered to trace the parallel referents in other cultures, or to address the unanswered questions. But why would they with the trash that we are taught today. (Empty space, Bending time and space, relativity, big bang, created out of nothing, red shift, ect... LIES, and more LIES)

Worldwide drawings and symbols of the once-dominant luminary show a disc with rays, a disc with spokes, a disc with a central orb or eye, a disc with a crescent upon it. Today we require a powerful telescope to see Saturn as a disc. We must fly a space probe close to the planet to see rays and spokes. Even then the spokes are intermittent and dark. The ancient astronomers, however, described the spokes as those of a cosmic wheel. They were "streams of fire", the "glory" of heaven.

(Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 years" This is only a shock to billion-year evolution-by-gravity mouth-breathers...When will mainstream ground themselves in reality?) http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/ ... isappears/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Our telescopes and probes can see things the ancients couldn't: Saturn's unexpected excess of heat, its radio emissions, its x-rays, its swirling bands of storm-clouds with huge lightning storms which were once said to be impossible. These things are unexpected to modern astronomers. To the ancient astronomers (had they possessed the technologically enhanced senses of probes), the things our instruments now witness would likely be understandable. For they remembered their gods as energetic and active, wielders of the thunderbolt. And they also remembered the fates of the gods, recounting how the once palpable ruler of the sky went so untouchably far away.

Helios as Saturn; Helios as central sun, and Helios as axis of the celestial revolutions.

Assyrian Shamash as Saturn, Shamash as central sun, Shamash at the polar "midst" and "zenith."

Egyptian Atum-Ra as central sun, Atum-Ra as Saturn, Atum-Ra atop the world pole.

There is a way to test the integrity of the ancient ideas we have reviewed. Are there any independent astronomical traditions enigmatically connecting the outermost visible planet to the celestial pole? It can also be tested with the restored gospel. This would be particularly significant because nothing in the
appearance of Saturn today could conceivably suggest such a connection? And it would show a coherence of the collective memory beyond anything
historians would have thought possible.

The answer is clear, and it is stunning. Wherever ancient astronomies preserved detailed images of the planet Saturn, it seems that Saturn was declared to have formerly occupied the celestial pole! The priestly astronomy of Zoroastrianism knew the planet Saturn as Kevan, called "the Great One in the middle of the sky," and they located the primeval seat of Kevan at the celestial Pole. In neo-Platonist symbolism of the planets,Kronos-Saturn is claimed to rule the celestial Pole, or is placed "over the Pole."

It is also known that Latin poets remembered Saturn as god of "the steadfast star," the very phrase used for the pole star in virtually every ancient astronomy. Thus Manilius recounts that Saturn, in his fall, toppled to the "opposite end of the world axis." Hence his original throne could only have been atop the world axis.

A stunning example of the polar Saturn is provided in Chinese astronomy, where the distant planet was called "the genie of the pivot." Saturn was
believed to have his station at the pole, according to the eminent authority on Chinese astronomy, Gustav Schlegel. In the words of Leopold
deSaussure, Saturn was "the planet of the center, corresponding to the emperor on earth, thus to the polar star of heaven."

Interestingly, the theme also appears to have passed into the mystic traditions of numerous secret societies (Rosicrucian, Masonic, Cabalistic, Hermetic, and others rooted in an unknown past). The greatest authority on such societies was Manly P. Hall, who published numerous volumes on the related belief systems. In the general traditions reviewed by Hall, the god Saturn is "the old man who lives at the north pole." Even today, it seems that in our celebration of Christmas we live under the influence of the polar Saturn, for as Hall observes, "Saturn, the old man who lives at the north pole, and brings
with him to the children of men a sprig of evergreen (the Christmas tree), is familiar to the little folks under the name of Santa Claus."

Santa Claus, descending yearly from his polar home to distribute gifts around the world, is a muffled echo of the Universal Monarch spreading miraculous good fortune. But while the earlier traditions place his prototype, the Universal Monarch, at the celestial pole, popular tradition now locates Santa Claus at the geographical pole--a telling example of originally celestial gods being brought down to earth.

A planet at the celestial pole? The consistency of the message cannot be denied, and it is anything but the message anticipated by conventional models of the ancient sky.

As odd as this tradition of Saturn at the pole may appear, it has been acknowledged by more than one authority, including Leopold de Saussure, and Joseph Smith.

The principle also figured prominently in the recent work of the historian of science, Giorgio de Santillana and the ethnologist Hertha
von Dechend, authors of _Hamlet's Mill_. According to an ancient astronomical tradition, the authors suggest, Saturn originally ruled from
the celestial pole!

"When Saturn ruled the skies alone
(That golden age, to gold unknown,)
This earthly globe to thee assign'd
Receiv'd the gifts of all mankind."
-- Johnathan Swift, A Panegyric on the Dean


This next part I post in RED is excerpts from Anthony Larson in a blog labeled Temple Symbols and Christmas.Hopefully this post as well as the thread I did on the electric universe will get more people to investigate Anthony's work. Not only is he the very best the church has today but just might be one of the best scholars in modern history. I can't say enough about his work which he has spent a lifetime investigating. But it also should be noted that he does not have a patent on these ideas. BYU should get him his own department as well as many new departments in different fields in relation to comparative ancient mythology and the electric universe.

True, Christmas is a holiday largely based on pagan festivals. In fact, it’s likely that Christians appropriated an ancient, cross-cultural tradition for our Christmas celebration that predates Christ by centuries, if not millennia.

The idea to celebrate Christmas on December 25 originated in about the 4th century. The Catholic Church, based in Rome, wanted to eclipse the festivities of the original pagan religion of the Romans called Saturnalia. It was their preeminent holiday, a midwinter celebration of the birthday of their sun god, Saturnus. Church leaders decided that in order to alter pagan beliefs, they had only to superimpose the birth of the Christ child on the pagan celebration. So, they instituted the Mass of Christ or Cristes Maesse in Old English — Christmas.

Special sanctity was attached to the period of the winter solstice in most traditional societies of Europe even before the introduction of Christianity in the first millennium A.D. The cult of the tree was especially prevalent among the early Celtic and Nordic peoples of Europe. Centuries ago in Great Britain, the Druids used holly and mistletoe as well as evergreens as symbols of eternal life during mysterious winter solstice rituals. They would also place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits. According to the Roman sources, the Celts of Gaul and Britain worshipped in groves of trees. When Europeans adopted Christian traditions, they created a blend of their winter solstice celebrations with that of the Catholic Church.

So, the roots of Christmas and its symbolic trappings lie deep in pagan cultural traditions, practices and beliefs, not in Christianity at all. This admixture of traditions — part Christian, part pagan — has created the hodgepodge holiday we know today.

For those reasons, many Latter-day Saints disapprove of the “worldly” trappings of Christmas. But that distaste may not be justified.

In an astonishing irony, a close look shows us that the iconography of latter-day temples — the Salt Lake Temple being the quintessential example — echoes the traditional, symbolic trappings from hoary antiquity that are now part of our Christmas celebration, validating symbols like Santa Claus and the Christmas tree.

The basis for this claim becomes clear when we look for indications of our Christmas traditions in numerous ancient cultures and then connect them with the symbolism found on the exterior walls of the temple in Salt Lake City.

So, let’s review the origins and history of today’s Christmas.

The controversial Gerald Massey, in two large works (The Natural Genesis and Ancient Egypt), claimed that the priest-astronomers of ancient Egypt first formulated the religion and mythology of a polar god, which tradition then spread from Egypt to the rest of the world. This may have been the starting point for our Santa Claus, a magical individual who lives at the North Pole. Additionally, ancient Egyptians treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrived, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.

Later, the Greeks memorialized the winter solstice with Kronia, a festival recalling the Golden Age, ruled by Kronos, another polar god and the father of Zeus.

Following the Greeks, the Romans adopted the same festival, the predecessor of modern Christmas-tide, renamed it Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, their father-god and equivalent of the Greek’s Kronos. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness and lamps to light one's journey through life. They decorated their trees with bits of metal and candles in honor of their sun god.

Trees — especially the conifer or evergreen — were objects of sacred significance in many ancient cultures. The Norse religion involved worship in sacred groves, which were trees planted to simulate the walls of a temple. This connects the tree to temple building traditions. Indeed, nearly all temples, ancient and modern, are adorned with gardens, as is the case on Temple Square.

The Canaanites, too, had sacred groves for worship, and the disobedient nation of Israel adopted this form of worship at the outset of their wanderings out of Palestine.

"For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree." (1 Kings 14:23. See also 2 Kings 17:9, 10.)

"Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols." (Ezekiel 6:13.)

We learn also that Israel’s neighbors practiced a custom startlingly similar to our practice of putting up Christmas trees. "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (Jeremiah 10:2-4.)

This passage also alludes to the belief in ancient cultures that the tree was symbolic of something cosmological or sky-based. The mention of the "signs of heaven" in the above verse is our clue. As with so many ancient religious or sacred symbols, the "celestial" or "heavenly" tree was an integral part of archaic cultures' star worship.

In Norse mythology, the great ash tree, Yggdrasil, connects the underworld and heaven with its roots and boughs. It’s also called the World Tree, which many ancient cultural traditions remember and reverence, that links heaven and Earth and shelters all the world. The mythical world tree was said to grow from the Earth’s pole and spread its branches among the stars. This "celestial tree" or "tree of life" — a term familiar to Latter-day Saints — was central to astral worship, as Jeremiah pointed out. It’s also the reason we put a star at the top of our Christmas tree.

To Norsemen, sprigs of evergreen holly symbolized the revival of the sun god Balder, who was originally the familiar Baal, sky god of the Old Testament.

Also in the Old Testament, trees are associated with the ancient Canaanite religion devoted to the mother goddess Asherah (Ashtoreth, Ishtar, "star"), which the Israelites, intent on establishing their monotheistic cult of Yahweh, sought to suppress. The cult celebrated Asherah and her consort Baal in high places, on the tops of hills and mountains, where altars dedicated to Baal and carved wooden poles or statues of Asherah (also translated as grove, or wood, or tree) were located.

The significance of trees in ancient Assyria, the acknowledged home of Ishtar or "star" worship, is shown in the numerous reliefs of winged deities watering or protecting sacred trees. Sacred trees, or trees of life, were associated in Ancient Assyria with the worship of the god Enlil, yet another sky god.


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So, our Christmas tree has a long and ancient tradition.

The evergreen Christmas tree also represents "World Tree" or "World Axis." The "Star of Guidance" that crowns the Christmas tree is also related to the North Star, Polaris. This natural compatibility of Christmas celebration with late December and beliefs about the evergreen tree, the North Pole, and the spirit called Father Winter, which survives in today’s Santa Claus, are evolutions of ancient tradition.

Notably, the six primary spires on the Salt Lake Temple are the symbolic equivalent of our Christmas tree. A round ball, the equivalent of a star on our tree, tops their conical shape.


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Indeed, one of them bears an angel in place of the star, just as do many of our Christmas trees.

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Just as the image of the star and the angel are interchangeable in ancient traditions, so too in modern Christmas tree decoration and temple iconography.

In Europe as well as in Asia, the Sacred Tree was considered to be the living image of the axis mundi or "Axis of the World," a figurative or imaginary still point or vertical shaft around which the world turns.

The North Star, Polaris, is the celestial placeholder for that sacred spot in the sky. It’s the only star in the sky that never moves. Throughout the night and year, all the stars move in circles around Polaris, called the pole star since it is located directly over the Earth’s north pole. As the night progresses, the stars will slowly move from east to west, circling around the pole star, due to the Earth’s rotation. Hence, all ancient cultures held that spot in the sky as sacred.

They also associated the pole star with the World Tree or Tree of Life and the central axis of the universe. In tradition, the top of the World Tree touched the North Star. This is the true meaning of the star on top of the modern Christmas tree, and also the reason that Santa makes his home at the North Pole in Christmas tradition.

In South Asia, traditions concerning the enchanted World Tree or World Axis have taken somewhat different forms. And yet, despite the differences, certain common patterns persist. The sacred tree, the vertical World Axis or stambha or stupa and the generous spirit from the far north are all features of pan-Indian culture that derive, most probably, from the same traditional sources as those of Western cultures.


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The precedence of the cosmic center among the great ancient cultures has been noted and documented by many scholars. Almost a hundred years ago, William F. Warren, in his groundbreaking work, Paradise Found, identified the celestial pole as the home of the supreme god of ancient races. "The religions of all ancient nations ... associate the abode of the supreme God with the North Pole, the centre of heaven; or with the celestial space immediately surrounding it."

In a general survey of ancient language, symbolism, and mythology, John O’Neill (Night of the Gods) asserted that mankind’s oldest religions centered on a god of the celestial pole.


Now for the grand finale

Latter-day Saints should note that, in keeping with ancient astral tradition, the constellation Ursa Major or Big Dipper, the traditional locator for the Pole Star, is depicted on the west wall of the Salt Lake Temple where it is positioned so as to ‘point’ to the northern sky and the polar star, Polaris.

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(Saturn appeared to the ancients to be a pole star that was usually fixed in one part of the sky on Earth's northern axis. The ancients saw Saturn constantly straight up over the north pole. Thus on the Salt Lake temple you have Ursa Major or the Big Dipper high on the west wall of the temple which points to the North Star. So it is no coincidence that the planet Saturn stands above the big dipper (which points to the polar star, the immovable star) on the Salt Lake temple.These stars are depicted there, again, to point the eye of the viewer to the north, the location of Saturn in antiquity.)

Also seen immediately above these star stones are the Saturn Stones, circles with a ring.

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This is no mere oddity or casual coincidence. As Nibley pointed out, the temple is an earthly replica of the heavens. It puts the uniquely modern temple squarely in the heart of ancient tradition — especially Christmas tradition. Certainly, it speaks to the reverence which modern temple builders placed on the star Polaris and its traditional role in ancient cultures worldwide.

Though it may seem completely odd to us, the Romans, who called themselves "Saturnians" and celebrated Saturnalia at the winter solstice, also placed their god Helios at the heavenly pole where Polaris now sits. In their pantheon, Helios was called the central sun, the axis of the celestial revolutions. But, Helios was also called Saturn.

All Greek astronomical traditions agreed that their god, Kronos, was originally the planet Saturn. What is now the sixth planet from the Sun stands at the center of the Greek paradise myth. According to their traditions, Kronos, the planet Saturn, ruled the heavens for a period, presiding over the Golden Age, then departed as the heavens fell into confusion.

Likewise, the Assyrians placed their central sun, Shamash, at the pole. But, they also asserted that Shamash was Saturn.

A stunning example of the polar Saturn is provided in Chinese astronomy, where the distant planet was called “the genie of the pivot” (Santa Claus?). Saturn was believed to have his station at the pole, according to the eminent authority on Chinese astronomy, Gustav Schlegel. In the words of Leopold deSaussure, Saturn was "the planet of the center, corresponding to the emperor on earth, thus to the polar star of heaven."

Finally, the Egyptian god Atum-Ra was said to be a central sun, standing atop the world pole. But, their traditions also depict Atum-Ra as Saturn.

As peculiar as this tradition of Saturn at the pole may appear to us, it has been acknowledged by more than one authority, including Leopold de Saussure. The principle also figured prominently in the recent work of the historian of science, Giorgio de Santillana and the ethnologist Hertha von Dechend, authors of Hamlet’s Mill. According to an ancient astronomical tradition, the authors suggest, Saturn originally ruled from the celestial pole.

It is also known that Latin poets remembered Saturn as god of "the steadfast star," the very phrase used for the pole star in virtually every ancient astronomy.

Manly P. Hall, noted authority on ancient belief systems wrote, "Saturn, the old man who lives at the north pole, and brings with him to the children of men a sprig of evergreen (the Christmas tree), is familiar to the little folks under the name of Santa Claus."

Santa Claus, descending yearly from his polar home to distribute gifts around the world, is a muffled echo of the Universal Monarch, Saturn, spreading miraculous good fortune. But while the earlier traditions place this sky god at the celestial pole, popular tradition now locates Santa Claus at the geographical pole — a telling example of originally celestial gods being brought down to earth.

The origin of Santa Claus imagery can be readily seen in Egyptian religious art. Atum/Ra, the god of the north, stands in his celestial boat, bark or ark, pulled across heaven by servants or souls.


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The Egyptian image metamorphosed over time and across several ancient cultures to become, in Nordic cultures, the old man of the north, Santa Claus, pulled in a sleigh by reindeer.

It is at this point that these ancient traditions most specifically intersect with modern temple symbolism.

Most Saints know of the Sun Stones depicted on the Salt Lake Temple. Given the traditions of the Egyptians, Assyrians and the Romans, it seems likely that those Sun Stones, like the Big Dipper, were placed there in recognition of the ancient traditions, which declared that a "sun" was once positioned at the celestial pole.

Additionally, most Saints are unaware that there are Saturn Stones in the Salt Lake Temple. The original architectural renderings of the building by Truman O. Angel, clearly depicted a planet with two rings around it at the top of each south wall buttress.


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Note that there is no such symbol on the Salt Lake Temple as it was finally erected, as we see it today. Instead, a repeated symbol (called a 'frieze' in architecture) of a circle with a ring around it (the traditional symbol for Saturn) was installed to replace the original icon. This circle frieze can be seen on the parapet stringcourse, immediately below the three towers at each end of the temple, and is still referred to in LDS literature and tradition as Saturn Stones.

Just as the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans worshiped a central sun that we, today, can identify from cross-cultural comparisons as Saturn, the various 'stones' on the Salt Lake Temple also celebrate that connection, once again correlating temple iconography with ancient, traditional symbolism that gave rise to our Christmas traditions.

It’s no stretch to see that modern prophets would employ the ancient, traditional symbolism of antiquity on a modern temple. The fact that they would properly use the traditional, sacred, religious icons from the past serves to strengthen Joseph Smith’s and Brigham Young’s claims to being prophets of God.

So, what should we make of Christmas with all its pagan symbolism and motifs? If modern prophets chose to memorialize the symbols of ancient traditions in latter-day temples, then who are we to reject those same symbols and traditions in our Christmas celebration?


© Anthony E. Larson, 2005

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Now consider this...

Here is the great David Talbotts cover of his book... the Saturn Myth..

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Here is another one by another great comparative mythologist Dwardu Cardona...

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Look familiar?

How bout this...

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This may seem nothing more than decoration until one considers that such a structure once stood in earthly skies.

The original, prototypical Saturn symbol proposed by Talbott becomes only one stage in the evolution of the Saturn epic rather than the dominant feature.

Image

Indeed, the six spires on the temple are replicas of the ancient World Mountain, the pillar that sustained all heaven — the same icon from which the Egyptians derived their pyramids.

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Should doubt persist about this interpretation of those spires, consider that the temple is frequently referred to in scripture as “the mountain of the Lord’s house.” This phrase makes no sense in ordinary terms. But in the language of Saturn symbolism, it makes perfect sense. If, as the ancients surely did, you consider the house or throne of god to be the orb at the peak, the structure beneath it becomes a high hill or mountain. Together, pillar and orb form the temple of god, or “the mountain of the Lord’s house.”

Thus we see that the symbols give meaning to the metaphor of scripture and vice versa. This type of interconnected unity between icon and metaphor can only be achieved by acknowledging the reality of the polar alignment of planets as Talbott and Joseph Smith depict them. This argues eloquently for the validity of this thesis. The fact that the spires are grouped in threes is said to reflect the trinity of the godhead, but it may also reflect that three orbs were visible to the ancients.


It seems that the primordial age, as chronicled in accounts around the world, stands in radical contrast to our own era. One can no more explain Saturn's ancient connection with the pole by reference to the present arrangements of the planets than one can explain, within conventional frameworks, Saturn's image as the Universal Monarch, as founder of the Golden Age, or as primeval sun god. Yet the fact remains that throughout the ancient world these images of Saturn constituted a pervasive memory which many centuries of cultural evolution could not obliterate.

Separate threads of evidence, each posing its own mystery for the specialists, thus suggest a remarkably unified memory: myth of the Golden Age, myth of the creator-king or celestial prototype of kings, reverence for a former sun god, the archaic day beginning at sunset, placement of the sun god at the cosmic center and summit, identification of the cosmic center with the axis of the turning sky, Saturn as founder of the Golden Age, Saturn as creator-king, Saturn as primeval sun or best sun, Saturn as god of the day (the day beginning at sunset), Saturn as resting god or god ruling the "day of rest," Saturn at the cosmic center and summit, Saturn ruling from the celestial pole.

In attempting to comprehend such enigmatic threads, we can no longer afford to ignore the most fundamental of questions: Is the sky we observe today the same sky experienced by the first stargazers? Joseph Smith would say unequivocally YES! For he taught and believed the sky we view today are vastly different than the what the Ancients observed.

Lets now talk about the Salt Lake Temple..

Lets start with the lowest on a vertical scale of the SL Temple which represents the telestial world, "EARTH STONES" (*There are 34 Earths-stones on the SL temple..)

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Now next on the vertical scale, above the Earth Stones are moons-stones. Notice the moon phases and "CRESCENT MOONS". Crescent moons flood temple square. This meaning of the moon phases are so profound.

"MOON STONES" (*There are 50 Moon-stones on the Salt Lake Temple.)

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Next on the vertical scale, "SUN STONES" (*There are 52 Sun Stones on the Salt Lake Temple.... )

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Here are a few other Sun Stones on other temples

Palmyra New York Temple Sun Stone;

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Albuquerque Temple Sun Stone

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The Nauvoo Temple Sun stones have a face on them. This is also important.

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*Notice those evil inverted pentagrams?

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Washington DC Temple Door Knobs of Sun Stones;
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Pretty incredible workmanship!

So you have in order from bottom to top.....Earth-Stones (34), than Moon-Stones (50), and than Sun-Stones(52). 3 degrees of glory?? Right? Well, above those three stands 184 Saturn Stones. What are we to make of that?? :-? :-\ /:) :-o ;) You also have 104 Star stones.

Now some Mormon apologist will totally deny and denounce that Saturn Stones exist on the Salt Lake Temple. Until they quit apologizing and start seeking out the mysteries of heaven they will never come across the truth. Especially if they spend their life defending something that doesn't need defending if they but understood and searched out the true nature of the universe. They really should study Joseph Smith's cosmic beliefs IMO. Brigham Young said they were in fact Saturn Stones and I will take his word over a Mormon apologist any day. In fact I am done with Mormon apologist. They help assist me in NOT finding the truth far too often. It is impossible to understand the significance of the temple/symbolism/Book of Abraham ect. until one understands Joseph Smith's cosmic beliefs and the message from all ancient cultures.. Latter-day Saints readily acknowledge the astral connections of most symbols employed in the Salt Lake Temple (that would be hard to deny), yet they utterly fail to recognize their connection to the same symbolism used in scriptural rhetoric and in ancient architecture. Indeed, uninformed, modern eyes take most of the symbolic iconography to be nothing more than stylistic decorations.

Few more symbols for one who is curious...

Inverted Pentagram on Salt Lake Temple

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Upright pentagram on Salt Lake Temple

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Eagle Gate with inverted pentagram and beehive in Salt Lake City

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Now, you will find temple square flooded with theses symbols. both inverted pentegram and upright pentagrams. for example....This...

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or the famous and beautiful Christus...

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Now next time one visits temple square go visit the Christus. If you turn around (back to Christus) and you will see this..

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Here is an up-close photo

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More Inverted pentagrams. Also notice the heavens depicted around the Christus and there are a few planets that stand out above all others.... One being The Planet Saturn! No pictures. Will try and visit in the next week or two and take a few..

Here is the seal of Melchizedek symbol. But it also has cosmic meaning. Like Nibley says, all temple symbolism on our temples both ancient and modern have cosmic implications. What??? Image to large to copy. Just click the link.
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Now I have looked everywhere for a photo of a symbol that is on every water fountain and every light pole at temple square and I can not find it anywhere on the internet. Will take a picture soon. But it resembles this...

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Notice the crescent? Though the crescent doesn't appear on the on the light poles or water fountains it does appear in the Book of Abraham Facsimiles.

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The images above comes from Babylonian which represents the Star of Ishtar. The Planet Venus! Also know as the Mother Goddess as Great Star

This is a stone mural and what you will see as you enter at the LDS Church History and Art Museum. Tons of symbolism is this. Not a great picture.

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Here is a Moon Stone on the Nauvoo temple.

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Cloud stones.....(This image is to big. Just click the link..)
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Hand Clasp on Salt Lake Temple
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Eye of God symbol....
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Eye of God symbol too, is in accord with ancient iconography. It is the basic symbol for the Saturnian configuration and is related to the Eye of God.. In fact all the symbols I posted above can be traced to every ancient temple and in every civilization. All can be traced back to the planet Saturn or more specifically the Saturn Configurations. Just in different stages. The Heavens before Noah's Flood. And the future heavens. It also should be noted that "the eye of Horus is on the Book of Abraham Facsimile. When Joseph Smith gave explanations for the Facsimile it was all about the heavens, about celestial objects. So to find these images on the temple which is a small scale depicting the heavens it is no coincidence.

The baptismal font and the twelve oxen

The baptismal font in the Salt Lake Temple sets atop the backs of twelve exquisitely carved oxen.
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This may seem a strange juxtaposition of images until seen in light of the ancient co-linear configuration of planets.

The horned oxen harken back to the apis statuary so common in Middle Eastern temples of antiquity. The horned bull is often depicted in Egyptian and Babylonian art. In the Saturn tradition, the crescent on Saturn was the prototype of the horns on a bull or cow, giving rise to all such worship, metaphor, iconography and art in antiquity. This is an element that properly, traditionally belongs in a temple.

Seen from ground level, the oxen and laver bear no resemblance to Saturn symbols. But if seen from above, the arrangement becomes a circle with 12 oxen evenly spaced around its edge. This is clearly Saturnian. The 12 oxen are the equivalent of the twelve numbers on a circular clock face, the 12 signs of the zodiac arranged in a circle, 12 gates to the heavenly temple as envisioned by John in Revelation, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles. It also suggests an origin for the baptismal rite in Saturn traditions. Indeed, when closely analyzed, much of the ritual and its trappings within the temple have Saturnian touches.
Now this one is really cool....Baptismal font in the Helsinki Finland Temple. Notice the TREE!
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Figure 5 of the Book of Abraham Facsimile 2

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Now there are other Egyptian documents, text, rock cravings depicting this very image.. Some experts say it means "represents the cow of Hathor, behind which stands a uzat-headed goddess holding a sacred tree." Which would make the baptismal font above with the "sacred Tree"?? bring on whole new meaning as well as verify that this is the restored gospel and the ONLY true church on earth! All kinds of different implications that I can't even talk about them. Unless one wants to meet me at the temple? ;)

Joseph said that this figure: "Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob." So I think it's safe to say the baptismal fonts with the 12 horned oxen.

Cow of Hathor

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* Notice the ship? Very significant. The ship is depicted twice in the Book of Abraham.

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Joseph Smith said this figure: "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham, as he offered sacrifice upon an alter, which he had built unto the Lord."

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Here hathor and horus are together (notice the hawk at her feet) the eight spoke is seen in the keyhole which the egyptians call a menat:
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Pillars and water
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Pillars represent the Absu/heavenly waters.

Another photo of Ursa Major or the Big Dipper high on the west wall of the temple as the Saturn Stones stand above it..

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And this from the Winter Quarters temple of the Big Dipper and North Star. What incredible workmanship!!!
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Same thing with The Anchorage Alaska Temple
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Remember that the Big Dipper is perfectly arranged on the temple wall so it points toward the North Star/Polar Star in the night sky.

Anthony Larson, who I consider one of the best in church history on temple symbolism has this to say..
These stars are depicted there, again, to point the eye of the viewer to the north, the location of Saturn in antiquity.

The temple’s designers wished, again, to properly orient the viewer. As one stands looking up at the temple’s west wall, he or she is facing east with the north to his left. The stars forming the Big Dipper are arranged on the temple, as they are in the heavens, so as to point to the North Star, Polaris, on the viewer’s left, the one and only star in the heavens that remains immobile, the one and only star to which a fixed symbol could constantly point. Thus, Polaris becomes a symbolic substitute for the ancient anchor of the heavens, Saturn.

The Big Dipper is traditionally used as a pointer constellation for the North Star. Thus, all who saw the Big Dipper constellation icon on the wall immediately knew it pointed to Polaris. It serves as a universal signpost, in a universal, symbolic language. Additionally, the selection of Polaris, the North Star, is most appropriate because, as was true of ancient Saturn, it is the only apparently fixed object in the sky, the polar anchor around which all heaven turns. So, too, was ancient Saturn depicted as ever turning, yet never moving, fixed and immovable.
Last edited by SempiternalHarbinger on July 9th, 2012, 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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SempiternalHarbinger
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

It is also worth noting that Joseph Smith's explanation of the Facsimiles matches the Egyptian traditions and the Saturn myth.
Joseph’s explanation of Kolob as “First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time,” fits Saturn’s ancient role. It was perceived as the primary governing power in the heavens. Everything else appeared to move or revolve around it. While it appeared to fully rotate once daily, it also remained in a fixed heavenly station. Additionally, it was the timepiece par excellence. In the role of Kronos (Cronus), Saturn’s appearance was commensurate with the beginning of time. That is, the ancients had no way of telling time or differentiating night from day until they could see Saturn and its rotating crescent.

What is more exciting is that a reading of Abraham, chapter 3, from the standpoint of Talbott’s polar configuration of planets reveals what was, undoubtedly, the fundamental meaning of the Lord’s explanation. He used Semitic words because that is the language Abraham spoke. He described the original planetary configuration that existed before the Flood because it served to teach Abraham the core truth behind traditional beliefs and practices, as well as provide a teaching tool for spiritual truths, which he expounds later in this same chapter.
A couple questions to ponder ...

1.) Did Joseph Smith ever teach about catastrophism? Both past history and future events? What do the scriptures teach?

2.) Did Joseph Smith Ever teach that the heavens above look any different other than what we see today? What do the scriptures teach? If so, can we put together the pieces and get a general idea of how it looked like?

City of Enoch and the Tower of Babel....

Orson F. Whitney had this to say about the Tower of Babel...;

"… the object of the people who built the Tower of Babel (was) to reach heaven, to attain one of the starry planets, one of the heavenly bodies."

"to attain ONE OF the starry planets, ONE OF the heavenly bodies." One of?

“… I cannot conceive how … a race of people … could cherish the idea that they could actually reach the sun, moon, or one of the stars simply by piling brick upon brick and stone upon stone."

Me either. Never made sense to me. Until this...

“But the Prophet Joseph Smith, whose job it was to shed light upon the darkness of this generation, is said to have declared that it was not their intention to reach heaven, but to reach Zion, which was then suspended in mid-air between heaven and earth, or at such a height as to render the project feasible. This certainly is more reasonable.” (Collected Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 359.)

Very interesting... Make a whole lot more sense to me. "it was not their intention to reach heaven, but to reach Zion, which was then suspended in mid-air between heaven and earth" Sounds like Zion was a planet which stood close enough to earth that they believed by building a tower they could reach it. Also interesting that Orson F. Whitney said it was suspended between earth and heaven. Heaven I assume being another planet. This I find most interesting of all is Elder Whitney’s reference to this planet as being “suspended in mid-air,” implying that it may not have orbited in the manner so familiar to us today. Rather, it suggests that the planet moved in tandem with the Earth. This notion seemingly borders on the preposterous, yet it is substantiated by another statement, this one from Elder Orson Pratt.

* NOTE(Elder Orson F. Whitney, called to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1906, was born in Salt Lake City in 1855. Therefore, he could not have learned these things from Joseph Smith personally. But, as can be seen in his statement below, he directly and specifically attributed this concept to the Prophet. In all probability, this indicates that he obtained this knowledge secondhand, though it may also have been confirmed to him through revelation. Of utmost significance to our study is the fact that it confirms that this type of perspective could still be found among the church membership in Whitney’s day and that it corroborates the cosmology of earlier church leaders.)

Orson Pratt, another Apostle, amplified on this idea, And gives us another clue to the ancient appearance of other orbs in Earth’s heavens,

“About the time of Abraham, the Tower of Babel was built. … They thought that the City of Enoch was caught up a little ways from the earth, and that the city was within the first sphere above the earth; and that if they could get a tower high enough they might get to heaven where the City of Enoch and the inhabitants thereof were located.”

Sphere=Planet. A planet in close proximity of the earth. And so close was this planet that the people of Babel thought it was feasible to build a tower to reach it. Also, both statements give the impression that this planet was stationary. Didn't move. Fixed. If it was constantly moving like the moon today, there would be no way to reach it. Kind of like building a tower to reach an airplane. Impossible. Also notice how he says the City of Enoch was the first sphere above earth. Implying there was more than one sphere (planet)above earths ancient sky. IMO

Peter wrote: ". . . by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . . ." (2 Peter 3:5-6.)

Thus, the key to understanding most of our cultural and religious traditions lies in remembering the end of the world — the end of the heavens and the earth that “perished” when God “spared not the old world, but saved Noah.” (2 Peter 2:5.)

So the world we know today and the sky we view in the night sky above us is not those the ancients viewed. In fact they are vastly different. "The world they knew “perished,” That is the heavens and the earth that they knew perished.

This is very important to us because we live in a day and time....

... in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Nevertheless, we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:10, 13.)

A New Heaven and a New Earth.

“For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fullness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea.” (D&C 29:23, 24.)

Also, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1.)

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
(D&C 93:23,24)

And this goes along perfectly with Joseph Smith's prophecy of the grand sign and Ether 13:8,9

8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.

9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.

Orson Hyde;

"God says he will gather all things into one; then he will gather the earth likewise …. The gathering will be upon a larger scale in time to come; for by and by the stars of heaven will fall. Which way will they go? They will rally to a grand center, and there will be one grand constellation of worlds." (Journal of Discourses, 1:130.)

This statement amplifies on Brigham’s views by including other worlds in this gathering or restoration to its former location. Based on the restoration, we can also infer that this “constellation of worlds” was the arrangement that dominated the heavens anciently, in the beginning, when Earth was situated near the orb referred to as the “throne of God” as Brigham said.

"When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. And when man fell … the earth fell into space and took up its abode in this planetary system and the sun became our light. This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father …." (Journal of Discourses, 17:143.)

“… and when it [the Earth] is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father ….” This parallels the doctrine of the restoration of all things. This concept is also embodied in the revelation that says, “Truth is the knowledge of things as they are, as they were and as they are to come.” Put yet another way, by knowing information about past celestial events, we can draw inferences about future events and vice versa—each is a reflection of the other, like two conceptual bookends.

According to President John Taylor, this earth "had fled and fallen from where it was organized near the planet Kolob."

Elder Orson Hyde’s reference to the “larger scale” of this gathering is a reflection on the idea that many planets, not just the Earth, were involved in the “fall” from its location near the orb referenced as “the throne of God," and that a group of planets and other orbs or “stars” will once again be gathered or returned to their former location. This statement has profound implications for our understanding and interpretation of the events prophesied to occur prior to the Savior’s second coming, providing a unifying theme for all such prophecy that makes it plain and easy to understand. (See “Keys to Prophecy, Joseph Smith’s Marvelous Key” and “Keys to Prophecy, What Joseph Taught.” by Anthony Larson)

In the journal of an early Latter-day Saint, Samuel Hollister Rogers, we find corroboration of this gathering of planets and stars. Rogers attributes this concept to Joseph Smith.

"When these stars return to the place where they were taken from, it will cause the earth to reel to and fro. Not that the planets will come squarely against each other. In such case both planets would be broken to pieces. But, in their rolling motion, they will come together where they were taken from, which will cause the earth to reel to and fro." (Journal of Samuel Hollister Rogers, 1840, B.Y.U Special Collections.)

As extreme as these quotes and scriptures may seem,(there is more!) it is substantiated by evidence produced by another of Joseph Smith’s closest associates, Philo Dibble, who served as a bodyguard to the Prophet. After relocating to Utah with the pioneer Saints, Dibble settled in Springville. He was well known to church leaders, who treated him with deference and respect because of his diligence and service to Joseph and the church. Neither did they challenge the concepts behind the next bit of evidence we will examine.

In 1884, Philo Dibble produced an illustration he claimed had been personally drawn for him by Joseph Smith in 1842 as the Prophet explained to Dibble how the Earth had once been part of a group of planets in the distant past—assumably the same idea as Elder Hyde’s “constellation of worlds.”

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Now here is a superb explanation and ramifications of the Dibble Facsimile By Anthony Larson!
The conclusions that one can draw from looking at this Dibble illustration can be summarized thus: Not one but three planets once stood above the Earth’s north pole, sharing a common axis of rotation with one another and the Earth in a “shish kabob” configuration, as seen in the Dibble drawing. This unique positioning allowed them to appear stationary in Earth’s heavens such that the Babylonians considered it possible to build a tower to reach them. This “constellation of worlds” remained intact, contrary to all the tenets of our gravity-based, scientific notions, and orbited the sun in the same ecliptic plane as all the planets do today. Also, a tenuous column of lighted gases and dust seemed to interconnect these planets, as seen in the Dibble illustration. -Anthony Larson
Now there is a group of modern scholars and scientists that agree with all these concepts. Their explanation of Earth’s earliest history, while unorthodox and disputed by many in the mainstream, concurs with the Brethren’s observations and fills in many otherwise missing details. This should also come as very welcome news to those current Saints who perceive the ongoing conflict between mainstream science and religion—most especially the restored gospel.

Dave Talbott (For some reason David Talbott reminds me allot of Dr. Steven Jones.)

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Dave Talbott is a comparative mythologist, who has written extensively on the cosmological implications of the sacred traditions of all ancient cultures. His work offers a radical new vantage point on the origin of ancient cultural themes and symbols. What's interesting is his Saturn Theory/Polar Configuration foundation is Ancient Egyptian. His interpretations are not mainstream but it shopuld be noted that both Joseph Smith and David Talbotts vision of the past are so similar that his work should be taken seriously.

David's coauthor, Wallace Thornhill, is a physicist who is the primary proponent of the novel idea that it is electrical energy in plasma that lights and governs our universe, have teamed up to explain that Earth, along with other planets, was once a satellite of a brown dwarf star, which was subsequently captured by our Sun, a similar affirmation to that made by Brigham Young.

David work started in the early 70's and was inspired by Immanuel Velikovsky “Worlds in Collision” and motivated him for his life’s work. David knew his reconstruction did not match up with the science and in reality didn't care much for it. He wanted to stay true to the message of antiquity. But than Wallace Thornhill showed up in his office one day telling David he was not crazy and that the images he was producing had scientific backing. Plasma cosmology. That the symbols he was producing could be reproduced in labs using huge amounts of electricity.

Together, Talbott and Thornhill question the fundamental pillar of today’s theoretical cosmology—the concept of the “uneventful solar system.” They are adamant that the Sun’s acquisition of that brown dwarf star, now known as the planet Saturn, and its entourage took place within historic times, as evidenced by the records, traditions and religions of all ancient cultures. These ancient civilizations, which unanimously declare that Earth was once lighted by Saturn, now classified as a “dark star” or “failed star” by astronomers due to its energetic output, is the same orb that many cultural traditions designate as the “first sun,” or “best sun,” as well as “god’s throne.” The Babylonians, for example, made the most unequivocal statement of all ancient civilizations when they wrote, “The sun is Saturn.”

Talbott wrote of his and Thornhill’s studies, “Following quite different research paths, we arrived at the same conclusion: the ancient sky was alive with activity. The evidence suggests that only a few thousand years ago planets moved close to Earth, producing electrical phenomena of intense beauty and terror. Ancient sky worshippers witnessed these celestial wonders, and far-flung cultures recorded the events in the great myths, symbols, and ritual practices of antiquity.” (Thunderbolts of the Gods, p. 6.)

They additionally declare that the appearance and movements of planets that once hovered near the Earth, together with the life-like movements seen in electrified plasma displays of light and sound that erupted between those neighboring planets, are the source of all ancient astral symbolism, hyperbole and metaphor.

Ultimately, Elder Hyde’s “constellation of worlds”—called the “Polar Configuration” by Talbott et al and dramatically illustrated in the Dibble diagram—was dismembered, and each of its component orbs settled quickly into the orbits around the Sun where we see them today. But, that settling process entailed a number of close encounters between planets over several centuries that wreaked havoc on each of them, including our Earth, as the Elders Pratt asserted.

Once again, these are key concepts found in the statements by church leaders. Ancient accounts from cultures the world over, including our Old Testament, report those catastrophic encounters in cryptic, enigmatic, arcane and obscure terms that are nevertheless easy to decipher from the point of view apparently offered by Joseph Smith and the proponents of the Neo-Catastrophist movement.

Talbott wrote, "We’ve paid far too little attention to the motives driving the ancient world: their desperate yearning to recover the semblance of a lost cosmic order, their collective efforts to replicate, in architecture, the towering forms claimed to have existed in primeval times, their festive recreations, through mystery plays and symbolic rites, of cosmic violence and disorder, their repetition, through ritual sacrifice, of the deaths or ordeals of the god and their brutal and ritualistic wars of expansion, repeating on the battlefield the cosmic devastation wrought in the wars of the gods.

"Such motives as these constitute the most readily verifiable underpinnings of the ancient cultures. How strange that in their incessant glance backwards, the builders of the first civilizations never remembered anything resembling the natural world in which we live!

"For centuries we've lived under the illusion that our ancestors simply made up explanations of natural phenomena they didn't understand. But that's not the problem. What the myth-makers interpreted or explained through stories and symbols and ritual re-enactments is an unrecognizable world, a world of alien sights and sounds, of celestial forms, of cosmic spectacles, and earth-shaking events that do not occur in our world.

"We have hypothesized a world order never imagined by mainstream theory--a world in which certain planets moved on much different courses than today, appearing as immense forms in the heavens.

1. Major changes in the planetary order, some involving Earth-threatening catastrophes, have occurred within human memory.

2. In myths, symbols, and ritual practices our ancestors preserved a global record of these tumultuous events.

3. The first civilizations arose from ritual practices honoring, imitating and memorializing these events and the planetary powers involved.

4. The dominant form at the onset of these events was a large sphere towering over ancient witnesses; the first astronomers identified this sphere as the planet Saturn.

"The theory holds that, just prior to the birth of the first civilizations, a gathering of planets close to Earth presented a spectacular visual display in the heavens, the obsessive focus of human attention around the world."

It was in 1972 that I termed this planetary arrangement the “Polar Configuration,” suggesting that it was centered on the north celestial Pole. And I proposed that the history of this configuration is the history of the ancient gods, recorded in the fantastic stories, pictographs, and ritual reenactments of the first sky-worshippers.

The reconstruction, though radical, holds one advantage that prior theories of "world catastrophe" have lacked. Its claims are so specific that they will be easily disproved on their own ground if wrong. Perhaps this will provide some assurance to those dismayed by the use of ancient testimony as evidence: if the hypothesis is fundamentally incorrect, experts on the ancient cultures will have no trouble refuting it.

By David Talbott

After publishing his original thesis in The Saturn Myth, Talbott went on to refine his thesis. In time he came to believe that the original configuration he proposed was slightly flawed. Instead of envisioning Saturn with a ring or set of rings around it, he saw something more like what Joseph Smith’s illustration implies: three rocky planets, the Earth standing at the “end” or “bottom” of the stack or string.

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In turn, these three planets were probably fixed “below” two gaseous giants, Saturn and Jupiter. Talbott’s most recent reconstruction of that group of planets, which he calls the “Polar Configuration,” is composed of these five planets, with the Earth at one end of the grouping.

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While Jupiter was the largest of the planets, it was obscured from earthling’s view by Saturn, leaving three visible orbs — again, conforming to Joseph Smith’s idea of three planets. Thus, when ancient earthlings gazed skyward, they saw three nested planets, each sitting within the orb of another, in a fixed position in the northern sky, as depicted below.

Some have expressed concern that this new conception may not adequately answer to some of the symbolism previously attached to the Saturn configuration. This is not true. In fact, it will be seen that this new arrangement not only conforms to all the original symbolism, but it serves to explain many more symbols and metaphors, traditions and beliefs than did the original. For example, the symbolic use of three rings remains intact because the terminator or “edge” of each planet forms a visible ring as well as the essential crescent when properly lit by sunlight, without the need for orbiting rings as are seen around Saturn today to explain ancient imagery.

The original, prototypical Saturn symbol proposed by Talbott becomes only one stage in the evolution of the Saturn epic rather than the dominant feature.

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Thus, this revised arrangement of planets is of primary interest to Latter-day Saints who wish to understand the symbolism and metaphor of our own religion, as well as that of all ancient religions. Not only that, it will also allow us to understand the most well rooted cultural and religious traditions as well as the history and the future of this planet. No other concept offers so much enlightenment about the world we live in and the new world yet to come, as you will see. The magnitude of this undertaking, once perceived in its undiminished totality, is truly staggering.

http://mormonprophecy.blogspot.com/2008 ... chive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taken together with the remarkable correlations elucidated above, this illustration is powerful evidence that Joseph Smith understood the nature of the Polar Configuration and its impact on the imagination of mankind, as the virtual snapshot below demonstrates when compared to the Dibble illustration.

Image

Perhaps it will be useful once again to see how this unique arrangement of planets, envisioned by Joseph Smith, would have looked from the Earth, anciently.

Image


The appearance of this marvelous spectacle in heaven made such a lasting impression on all mankind that cultures and religions the world over reverenced and duplicated it in endless variety. No wonder the ancient prophets and apostles rejoiced when they saw these things in vision. It is no wonder, too, that the iconography and metaphorical symbolism of the restored gospel should respect and perpetuate this time-honored tradition. If the Polar Configuration thesis is correct, then it serves to explain why a modern prophet felt compelled to incorporate its traditional symbolism in temples. It explains why all the revelation he received properly used this same metaphorical imagery. It explains his intense interest in ancient Egyptian texts and hieroglyphs. And most invaluable to us, it provides a systematic explanation of the most enigmatic parts of our religion.

This is a powerful witness of Joseph’s calling as a prophet. In this author’s opinion, this view of ancient history and the gospel puts a virtual lock on his claims of revelation. He was precisely what he said he was. Have no doubt of that fact.

Not sure how many have browsed my "Plasma ELECTRIC Universe " thread??
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 14&t=21475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But it should be noted, that there is no electric universe hypothesis without David Talbotts Saturn Myth/ Saturn polar configuration. The electric Universe derived from Talbotts hypothesis. No Talbott Saturn Myth and there is no electric universe! Though they are two separate independent departments. In other words the Electric Universe started out as an effort to make better sense of ancient documents. And it has done just that. Bringing a whole new light to both scripture, (especially the Book of Abraham)Prophecy, and the temple.

Symbols of an Alien Sky - Episode Oneby David Talbott



Here is an incredible interview for anyone interested. By far one of the most informative and favorite interviews by David Talbott. I say it is a must watch! Understandable even for the layman!

Red Ice Radio - David Talbott - Hour 1 - Symbols of an Alien Sky



Thunderbolts Of The Gods



Got to go... Off to work

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marc
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by marc »

Semp, your research never fails to fascinate me! Anyway, I don't believe Christmas is evil. It has its pagan roots, as does Halloween. I'm not concerned about anyone turning into worshipers of false gods or satan himself. And don't get me started on the all American golden calf: television. @-)

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AGalagaChiasmus
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by AGalagaChiasmus »

davedan wrote:If it was LDS doctrine to shun and run away from any occasion or symbol that Satan had corrupted then Satan could just make every day and occult holiday and eveything an occult symbol and there'd be nothing left.

Instead it is LDS Doctrine that Satan corrupts and does not create. Therefore, what LDS are expected to do is take our positive holidays and symbols back and sanctify them and (if useful) return them to their original positive commemoration.

So on All Hollows Eve, LDS can dress as their favorite Book of Mormon character and enjoy a fun clean event with family or other LDS youth instead of dressing up as something goulish.
:ymapplause:

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by A Random Phrase »

coachmarc wrote:Semp, your research never fails to fascinate me! Anyway, I don't believe Christmas is evil. It has its pagan roots, as does Halloween. I'm not concerned about anyone turning into worshipers of false gods or satan himself. And don't get me started on the all American golden calf: television. @-)
Ditto what coach said. I had no idea that Christmas (or Halloween) pagan roots would have extended so far back. It sounds like Christmas paganism was rooted in fact/actual happenings at one point in time.

I suppose, as long as we know it's a story (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc.) and stay away from darkness on Halloween (gore, murder, etc.), the celebrations may be benign. I would really like to know Jesus' take on the appropriateness of it, though.

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Alpine
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Alpine »

A Random Phrase wrote:
coachmarc wrote:Semp, your research never fails to fascinate me! Anyway, I don't believe Christmas is evil. It has its pagan roots, as does Halloween. I'm not concerned about anyone turning into worshipers of false gods or satan himself. And don't get me started on the all American golden calf: television. @-)
Ditto what coach said. I had no idea that Christmas (or Halloween) pagan roots would have extended so far back. It sounds like Christmas paganism was rooted in fact/actual happenings at one point in time.

I suppose, as long as we know it's a story (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc.) and stay away from darkness on Halloween (gore, murder, etc.), the celebrations may be benign. I would really like to know Jesus' take on the appropriateness of it, though.

No more murdering on Halloween, Check. What about the other days? ;)

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SempiternalHarbinger
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

A Random Phrase wrote:
coachmarc wrote:Semp, your research never fails to fascinate me! Anyway, I don't believe Christmas is evil. It has its pagan roots, as does Halloween. I'm not concerned about anyone turning into worshipers of false gods or satan himself. And don't get me started on the all American golden calf: television. @-)
Ditto what coach said. I had no idea that Christmas (or Halloween) pagan roots would have extended so far back. It sounds like Christmas paganism was rooted in fact/actual happenings at one point in time.

I suppose, as long as we know it's a story (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc.) and stay away from darkness on Halloween (gore, murder, etc.), the celebrations may be benign. I would really like to know Jesus' take on the appropriateness of it, though.
Thanks guys! Truth is there is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much more and incredible stuff. I want to shout for joy as all this becomes clear to me. Unfortunately, some of this stuff can be frighting and disturbing to some. But such issues are only a problem for those who do not understand the origin and purpose of such practices or icons and the methodology that allows their adoption and adaptation as necessary or useful. When seen in the revelatory light of a proper view of history, there is no need for concern or anxiety at these measures.
Last edited by SempiternalHarbinger on July 11th, 2012, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

ndjili
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by ndjili »

I can already envision the flippant replies to this topic
And here I thought the reply you'd be envisioning was

DUH!

Then I got distracted by an 'Eye of Sauron' pumpkin and pumpkin chocolate cookies and bread.
AHH forbidden pumpkin chocolate treats (drooling)

And um I want the Eye of Sauron design. lol

Rock34
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Rock34 »

There's that word again - pagan. What does it mean? The literal definition just means "rural" or "rustic". It was originally a by the "civilized" Greco-Roman "catholic" church (the word itself is based in Latin), likely against the agrarian Celts and Germanic tribes, since those were the ones harassing them for the previous thousand years. According to the Bible, Noah's children populated the earth after the flood. Noah, and all three of his sons were priesthood holders, yet Noah drank wine and got intoxicated after a hard day's work. Obviously the some of the rules were a little different and God "winked at" a few things in his time. Even up to the time of Israel, Jacob would perform rituals on his sheep, Rachel had secret idols and Joseph married a daughter of an Egyptian priest. Were they considered "evil" for this? No, actually they were the favored ones in scripture.

We go mostly by the Hebrew account of world religious history, but that's just one cultural lense and one language. Noah is a person found in Hindu, Greek, Sumerian and other "pagan" texts, by different names, but usually the same story. Obviously he was the initiator of this current age of the earth, remembered differently by different traditions, but all featuring a great flood of some sort. If all Noah's offspring spread over the earth, then they all remembered the same basic priesthood and religion differently.

Yule for example is connected with Winter Solstice and the tree represents the great World Tree or Tree of Life. It's a tradition common to the northern peoples. Since this is the same population that converted to Christianity in the middle ages, they carried it over. Santa Claus is a being similar to Odin which some members think was just another visitation of Jesus to his "lost sheep".

If you ask me, if it isn't sacrificing babies or having wanton drug-induced orgies (the only things really condemned in the Old Testament as abominable aside from violations of the Ten Commandments), it probably had some validity to begin with, in spite of the "pagan" designation. Solstice observance is just an outgrowth of the spiritual significance ancients placed on stars and their positions. From the Book of Abraham, there is canonical validity to this notion. The World Tree is also nothing foreign to what is contained in our own scriptures. Isn't there an account about a certain patriarch having a dream in which people were guided to a life- and wisdom-giving tree? Christmas is our tradition (it is mine at least). I find the motifs of snow, trees, sleighs, and wrapped gift-giving more relatable than desert mangers and Magis in robes. So sue me.

Easter too is a colorful holiday with hardly anything overtly evil about it. It represents life and rebirth in a more relatable manner to the northern peoples.

Halloween? Well it's dark, but not everything about life is roses. I think its good to have a holiday that dwells more on death, horror and the more mysterious side of life. Sometimes we have to face our fears, and see the whole picture. Why does Christian conversion have to destroy what is part of our older culture? I don't speak Hebrew, I don't wear a turban or any other attire worn in the middle east, I don't sing like an ancient Hebrew, and I don't observe many of the ancient Hebrew holidays. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not my way. I sing like a person from the north countries, I celebrate holidays like one, and I live like one, as long as it is not in conflict with the church teachings.

This anti-holiday superstition is akin to forbidding meats and other non-scriptural teachings. It's almost like the Muslim Brotherhood wanting to destroy the great wonders that are the pyramids just because it represents a religion before them. If you want to celebrate calender holidays like the ancient Hebrews did, then fine with me, but keep in mind many Hebrew cultural ways were also condemned by ancient prophets. To me the Bible is a doctrinal book, not a cultural one giving advice on how to create and observe all festivals. In some cases it is downright impossible to recreate their holiday observances, since they lived in a different climate, both natural and political.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Elizabeth »

I have always been a practicing Christian, and am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When I joined I was excited and naive enough to think the members were indeed "saints", this delusion did not last... however this quote from Rock34 are thoughts I would never have imagined I would ever hear from an LDS member.
Rock34 wrote: Halloween? Well it's dark, but not everything about life is roses. I think its good to have a holiday that dwells more on death, horror and the more mysterious side of life.

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marc
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by marc »

Define saint, esp where concerning LDS. The word Christian is found in the New Testament twice and in the Book of Mormon four times. A Christian is someone who takes upon themselves the name of Christ, as King Benjamin taught, but that doesn't make anyone perfect. There may be millions of Christians on the earth today, but probably a fraction of them are truly Christ-like. And that also goes for us who are members of the LDS church. Most still struggle with the first two principles of the gospel.

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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by SmallFarm »

SARAH Ward wrote:I have always been a practicing Christian, and am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When I joined I was excited and naive enough to think the members were indeed "saints", this delusion did not last... however this quote from Rock34 are thoughts I would never have imagined I would ever hear from an LDS member.
Rock34 wrote: Halloween? Well it's dark, but not everything about life is roses. I think its good to have a holiday that dwells more on death, horror and the more mysterious side of life.
Hey you're a pious individual, that's a good quality and I like it. :ymhug: By various posts I've seen on here however, it seems as if you are a bit over-judgmental of other people. Joseph Smith taught us that if we didn't accuse others, then we would have no accusers and that instead of condemning others we should cover each other in a blanket of charity. I'm not trying to judge you harshly, but rather thought I'd give you a little advise (it may be that I'm completely wrong so pardon my error as a human being :ymhug: ).

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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth »

;)

Rock34
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Rock34 »

SARAH Ward wrote:I have always been a practicing Christian, and am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When I joined I was excited and naive enough to think the members were indeed "saints", this delusion did not last... however this quote from Rock34 are thoughts I would never have imagined I would ever hear from an LDS member.
Rock34 wrote: Halloween? Well it's dark, but not everything about life is roses. I think its good to have a holiday that dwells more on death, horror and the more mysterious side of life.
I remember a little more than 20 years ago having very fun Halloween parties at the chapel. The priesthood quorums would dress up as vampires and other scary things and dedicate one wing of the chapel as a haunted house (or "spook alley" as it was called). I saw nothing wrong with this, and then everything changed shortly thereafter. Even my elementary school in a relatively Christian conservative city in the South renamed school's Halloween Carnival to "Fall Festival" probably because of "Christians" in the city. I thought it was very lame at the time. It's odd how people decry it as a "ghastly" (ghast = Old English gást = ghost = SPIRIT) holiday, yet Catholics and other Christians remember Jesus by the torture device placed upon him. It seems anything spiritual is given the "pagan" or "demonic" moniker if it dwells too much on the actual nature of spirits, and the emotions we place on those life-giving-aspects of life should an encounter occur with a disembodied one. Why are we afraid of ghosts, spooks, monsters, etc.? As the book of Moses says, it is fear that gives the devil power, so why not examine our fears of the unknown instead of shying away from them?

Horror movies and Halloween are oft-maligned aspects of western culture by many Christians. They may be bloody, grotesque and even satanic at times (Exorcist), but they cover a human emotion that is neglected elsewhere. Though I prefer more thought-provoking "ghost" movies like "The Sixth Sense" I can see the appeal in horror films. They make you question what you are afraid of, and why. Also horror and truth-seeking go hand in hand. One of the best horror movies of the 80s was also one of the better NWO-exposing movies - "They Live". Yes a lot of these flicks are R-rated, so maybe you shouldn't watch them. I really don't care. I will watch what I see fit. There are plenty of morally-reprehensible G-Rated movies. People today don't really follow a lot of what President Benson advised, so why pick R-rated movies of all things? (I'm sure he would have a few choice opinions about Brother Romney if he was still alive in the flesh, just like Brother Reid and some of the faith's other "representatives" in Washington).

FWIW, all the church Halloween parties occurred when President Kimball and President Benson were in charge.

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gr8ideas
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by gr8ideas »

How about the Olympics then? It is the worship of false gods according to the Deseret News.

Rock34
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Rock34 »

Why did Mormons way back when name a prominent Mountain east of their great city Olympus?

Another question: Just how many apostate devil worshipers were there on the planet when the Hebrews were dwelling in the desert 2-3000 years ago? God didn't seem to mind most of their practices back then (Acts 17:30), but now there are 3.6 billion practitioners of Abrahamic religions. As big as that number is, still half of the world population is Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian, Shinto or even atheist - still a lot of "pagans" left. So-called "Eastern" religions are just eastern branches of the same religion that Abraham originally came from. In India they have the names "Brahma" and "Saraisvati" (Abram and Sarai -> Abraham and Sarah), and other names and concepts. They originate out of Egypt, India, and Sumeria - the three original civilizations after the great flood (which was most likely well before 2500 BC). Gene Matlock thinks Abraham and Jesus actually came from India, and further back from the homeland of Hyperborea (Siberia). Don't know about that, but some of his writing is interesting:

http://viewzone2.com/abraham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(I do agree with him that the Mesoamerican culture is heavily Indian in origin. The motifs on the temples, and the people themselves look similar. It would explain why Columbus called natives such back in the late 1400s.)

Coupled with the works of Zecharia Sitchen and "ancient astronaut" writers such as Erich von Daniken, you can piece together much of the puzzle of ancient "pagan" civilization. They weren't a bunch of remote peoples coming up with random myths on their origins, nor were they necessarily "apostates". Likely they just received different versions of the stories from their ancestors and heavenly visitors. Noah was an actual patriarch and a person similar to him occurs in every major civilization's origin story. Adam was Adamu - a final product of many genetic experiments of primate life (bigfoots and yetis are probably failed experiments...) to form a body suited to this environment yet still in the Creators' (yes, plural) image. Even Spencer W. Kimball said not everything in the Adam and Eve story was 100% literal (the "rib" and so forth). The fact that most of Genesis was written down shortly before the time of Christ based on oral traditions, and the fact that Sumerian tablets have the same stories in them from 4000 years before Christ, is telling. One seems to be derived from the other, since Sumerian accounts are much more detailed and technical.

JohnnyL
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by JohnnyL »

SempiternalHarbinger, all,

A few questions:
1. I guessed Saturn and Venus, but not Mars. So would Mars be where Enoch and Zion are, in this configuration and story?
2. Is there more about the pillar holding up Saturn? I'm much more interested in that than in Saturn...
3. Is the pillar imaginative, symbolic, energetic, or was there a real one of sorts?
4. If the people were trying to build a tower to the lower planet, it seems that would mean they would be building at the North Pole, which is currently ice and water--doesn't work. Unless you believe the North Pole tales, about land, or some kind of energy/ connection flowing from the hole up... Or unless there was a mountain there or such, that the tower was being built on? Perhaps, Mount Zerin?? :D

Zkulptor
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Zkulptor »

Halloween is coming! time to start carving pumpkins!
Check these out by a good friend of mine...
http://villafanestudios.com/gallery/the ... s-2/page/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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kathyn
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by kathyn »

zkulptor, I have seen Ray Villafane's work on tv....a couple of pumpkin-carrving competitions. He's fantastic.

JohnnyL
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by JohnnyL »

By the way, did anyone notice the 22.5degrees in that claimed JS drawing? ;)

I'm thinking that might have been from the freemasons' knowledge?

Check out Gary Osborn's articles on that, more very interesting stuff!

Zkulptor
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Zkulptor »

kathyn wrote:zkulptor, I have seen Ray Villafane's work on tv....a couple of pumpkin-carrving competitions. He's fantastic.
Hi Kathyn,
Yes he is amazing! He used to make action figures like me, and now he is famous and rich lol.
Funny thing is I met him when he was extremely poor with 8 kids ( he was a K12 teacher) , the guy would sculpt on his night stand with a cord and a sheet hanging on it to divide his bed so his wife could sleep without the glare of the night stand's lamp light to bother her.
He told me that before his mother passed away that she promised him that once on the other side she would help him become a success...I guess it worked :)

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triple777
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by triple777 »

BrentL wrote:My boys always have gone to our wards trunk or treat to show respect and follow LDS Church standards. Surely that is not too much to ask.

If we were true Christians we would not celebrate Halloween at all, not even with a truck or treat on holy ground at the church. We only do it because it is safer than what others do and because a wicked people demand it.

maybe another way to look at it would be to observe a higher law by not participating in this occult holiday.

We who know the truth should not lower ourselves to the world standards. As a youth I did not understand this but as an adult I know better.

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triple777
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by triple777 »

gr8ideas wrote:How about the Olympics then? It is the worship of false gods according to the Deseret News.

did you see the Olympics this year. The opening and closing ceremonies were one complete Lucifer ritual. The NWO runs it as well.

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Rensai
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Rensai »

SempiternalHarbinger wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
coachmarc wrote:Semp, your research never fails to fascinate me! Anyway, I don't believe Christmas is evil. It has its pagan roots, as does Halloween. I'm not concerned about anyone turning into worshipers of false gods or satan himself. And don't get me started on the all American golden calf: television. @-)
Ditto what coach said. I had no idea that Christmas (or Halloween) pagan roots would have extended so far back. It sounds like Christmas paganism was rooted in fact/actual happenings at one point in time.

I suppose, as long as we know it's a story (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc.) and stay away from darkness on Halloween (gore, murder, etc.), the celebrations may be benign. I would really like to know Jesus' take on the appropriateness of it, though.
Thanks guys! Truth is there is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much more and incredible stuff. I want to shout for joy as all this becomes clear to me. Unfortunately, some of this stuff can be frighting and disturbing to some. But such issues are only a problem for those who do not understand the origin and purpose of such practices or icons and the methodology that allows their adoption and adaptation as necessary or useful. When seen in the revelatory light of a proper view of history, there is no need for concern or anxiety at these measures.
Semp, this stuff is very interesting. Is this all documented on a website somewhere or did you just put it all together?

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Elizabeth
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Re: Halloween is of the Occult.

Post by Elizabeth »

:-BD
triple777 wrote: If we were true Christians we would not celebrate Halloween at all, not even with a truck or treat on holy ground at the church. We only do it because it is safer than what others do and because a wicked people demand it.

maybe another way to look at it would be to observe a higher law by not participating in this occult holiday.

We who know the truth should not lower ourselves to the world standards. As a youth I did not understand this but as an adult I know better.

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