The great abominable church

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PunaGabe
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The great abominable church

Post by PunaGabe »

Ok lets here some opinions on the vatican I mean great abominable church. I know there will be some debates on this one. Lets here it ,chirp away. :D

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2BFree
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Re: The great abominable church

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H. Verlan Anderson...The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. Check it out...

lcare
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Post by lcare »

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#55
The great and abominable church is the kingdom of the devil, and the kingdom of the devil consists of all the world from the least to the greatest of people who
(D&C 10:56) do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.
There are only two churches, and the Lord's is whosoever repents and comes unto Him through faith, repentance and obedience to the commandments. Baptism may come later, even during the millennium, as we know there will be missionary work to do then.

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serenitylala
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Re: The great abominable church

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I thought it would be fun to add here the true definition of the word "church."
Church [Old English cirice, circe; Middle English chereche, chiriche, chirche; whence churche, cherche, etc.: -Greek Kuriakon...]

Kirk The Northern English and Scottish form of CHURCH, in all its senses.

In the earlier Greek It was pronounced "ku-ri-a-kos" or "ku-ri-a-kon." As you can see, this word doesn't even resemble the Greek word "ecclesia" whose place it has usurped. The meaning of "Ku-ri-a-kos" is understood by its root: "Ku- ri-os," which means "lord." Thus, "kuriakos" (i.e., "church") means "pertaining to the lord." It refers to something that pertains to, or belongs to, a lord. The Greek "kuriakos" eventually came to be used in Old English form as "cirice" (Kee-ree-ke), then "churche" (kerke), and eventually "church" in its traditional pronunciation. A church, then, is correctly something that "pertains to, or belongs to, a lord."
So basically it is a group of people that belong to a particular lord. Satan's church as opposed to Christ's church.

Just the goats (abominable church) and the sheep (Church of the Firstborn).

Fun!

ktg
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2BFree wrote:H. Verlan Anderson...The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. Check it out...
+1

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LateOutOfBed
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by LateOutOfBed »

ktg wrote:
2BFree wrote:H. Verlan Anderson...The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. Check it out...
+1
+1 again... That book changed my life and how I think.

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Mindfields
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by Mindfields »

Evil Government!

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7cylon7
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by 7cylon7 »

Read your BOOK OF MORMONS People. I will show you direct quotes in the BOM that explain what this is. If you read it CAREFULLY you will see that there can be no mistake.

Yes there are more than one answer. It's all so easy just to say the Church of the Devil. The BOM says a lot more than just that!!!

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Lexew1899
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Post by Lexew1899 »

I always looked at the Catholic church as the one mentioned as the great and abominable church.

Some things that have bothered me about them is their history is changing plain and precious things of the gospel such as the Nicene Creed.

I also don't like the fact that they sell indulgences.

And if you want to look at the leaders they have elected to the office of pope, looked at someone like Pope Paul II, and look at his cause of death.

I think most of their problems arose during medieval times, and the traditions they made created a monolithic religion that ignored the message of the gospel at the cost of gaining more power.

Just take them at their own words, "The Devil resides in the Vatican and you can see the consequences," said Father Amorth, 85, who has been the Holy See's chief exorcist for 25 years.

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serenitylala
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Re: The great abominable church

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Catholics at least consider Christ in their lives. The atheists that push abortion and sexual deviancy are more suited to the great and abominable church.
Last edited by serenitylala on January 25th, 2012, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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serenitylala
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by serenitylala »

7cylon7 wrote:Read your BOOK OF MORMONS People. I will show you direct quotes in the BOM that explain what this is. If you read it CAREFULLY you will see that there can be no mistake.

Yes there are more than one answer. It's all so easy just to say the Church of the Devil. The BOM says a lot more than just that!!!

Hey, Hey.... now, there's no need for that kind of use of exclamation points. ;) :D :))

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7cylon7
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by 7cylon7 »

Okay here it is.

1 Nephi chapter 13.... interesting that the chapter about the great and abominable church is contained in chapter 13, no?

So to start off with when does that church start? If as many here have said it is JUST the church of the devil then why would not the beginning of this church be started with Cain? Any answers please reply. I can tell you. The BOM states that it did not start then and thus this church is a specific entity not just some kinds of principles. Yet, I will concede that the great and abominable church did start at Cain however, in our time it is more organized and the BOM tells us so.

If you read 1 Nephi chapter 9,10,11 and 12 you see the angle giving a vision of the future for Nephi. If you read you will see that the BOM time has already been gone over. I tell exactly what is going to happen to his children. Now the angel goes way into the future to tell Nephi about the end of days so to speak. He tell Nephi about the entire beginning middle and end of the USA or those that will inherit the promise land.

This church only appears after the BOM times. So it is talking about a certain group that he calls the GAC (Great and Abominable Church).

Where does this church first start to form?

4 ...among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5....Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

Keep this verse in mind as it is very specific to what this Church will do. And if you think about your history right here in verse 5 you can almost know with certainly what or who this Church is. (Inquisition any one?)

Most all of us know who the founder was right?

8... And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

So here it is in general that anyone who desires these things above the things of God will become a member of this church. However, this Church really does desire these things. It is what makes them do all those things in verse 5.

Back to the question of Where this Church formed?

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

He of course is talking about Gentile nations not in America which of course is Europe. This Church is formed in Europe.

Now here is another KEY to understanding this.

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them

at first the book was whole and good.

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the abook proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

But what happened?

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Okay, here is the defining clue that the BOM states plainly.

Now we go to

Constantine the Great 27 February 272 – 22 May 337, also known as Constantine I or Saint Constantine, was Roman Emperor from 306 to 337. Well known for being the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity, Constantine and co-Emperor Licinius issued the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious tolerance of all religions throughout the empire.

As the emperor who used Christianity to empower his government throughout the Roman Empire

But make no mistake he was not really a Christian at all.

In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referencing the esoteric eastern sun-worship which Aurelian had helped introduce, and his coinage still carried the symbols of the sun cult until 324.

He only used the Christian faith to help rule his empire. He saw that all throughout his kingdom the faith was already there. He saw faith as a very powerful asset in helping him keep total and complete control of his empire.

in 325 he summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified). Nicaea dealt mostly with Arianism. Constantine also enforced the prohibition of the First Council of Nicaea against celebrating the Lord's Supper on the day before the Jewish Passover (14 Nisan) (see Quartodecimanism and Easter controversy).[212]

Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves.

The First Council of Nicaea is the first ecumenical council of the catholic Church. Most significantly, it resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Creed of Nicaea. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

In the Council of Nicea, "the Church had taken her first great step to define doctrine more precisely in response to a challenge from a heretical theology.

You can read more about this but for 300 years there was not priesthood on the earth and can you imagine what doctrines or false doctrines started to come into the Christian faith.

To make a long story short, (Too Late) Rome was divided into four areas ruled by four emperors. 2 in the east and 2 in the west. Constantine ambition was to control the entire Roman empire. But how could he do this? He came up with the one god one empire one emperor. He wanted to use the Christian faith to hold his empire together.

Now I know that the bible may have already been created by this time but in truth the bible was an evolving work. But I believe at these councils the true meaning of the bible was changed. The BOM tells us that it was. They had meeting after meeting trying to consolidate power in the christian churches for there were many churches.

As a result, in the power struggles finally the Holy Roman Empire was born. ......was an empire (Reich) that existed from 962 to 1806 in Europe.

It is also important to note that Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations and The Holy Roman Empire was named after the Roman Empire and was considered its continuation.

Now we see why it happened. What the real intent was to changing the truths held in the original bible. It was for control of the masses and what was the result.

because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

So in conclusion, The BOM tells us that this Church starts after the BOM times or at least near the end of it time. It forms in Europe and had access to the Bible to take truths from it. Though many churches did exist at the time all professing to have true inspiration there was only one church left standing. We all know what church that was.

So I can say that it did play a part but is it still the church that is great and abominable? To name only one group as THE great and abominable church would be to exclusive. Today I could name 10 groups right off the cuff that I would consider to be apart of the great and abominable church, that is true. I am saying that many groups we know today are apart of that church and the catholic church is just one of them. And the BOM basically says it to be.

Also good to view is below.


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jcricket6048
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Re: The great abominable church

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PunaGabe wrote:Ok lets here some opinions on the vatican I mean great abominable church. I know there will be some debates on this one. Lets here it ,chirp away. :D
me and my wife had a discussion about this topic last saturday on the great and abominable church and we have come up with gangs, secret organizations, political parties and etc..... You see what the scriptures say anything that opposes the true Church meaning to kill, plunder, conspire against God's plan is the great and abominable church. Gangs are set up where they kill people who are not of their organization or believe what they believe. The same way with secret organizations, they will kill, plunder and set up traps for the less fortunate. And the most popular one is the political parties who will do anything to get power and set up laws that will do exactly the same thing that these gangs and secret organizations are doing. So it is not just the Catholic Church that shares in this charade. :|

lundbaek
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by lundbaek »

Both H. Verlan Andersen in his book "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, and Christopher S. Bentley (forum member) in his book "The Hidden Things of Darkness" show that the great and abominable church of the devil is "prostituted government".

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Lexew1899
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by Lexew1899 »

What government or gang ever changed plain and precious things of the gospel? I don't know of any church that is given doctrine to follow from ANY government in the world. Please clarify.

Rathus
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by Rathus »

serenitylala wrote:I thought it would be fun to add here the true definition of the word "church."
Church [Old English cirice, circe; Middle English chereche, chiriche, chirche; whence churche, cherche, etc.: -Greek Kuriakon...]

Kirk The Northern English and Scottish form of CHURCH, in all its senses.

In the earlier Greek It was pronounced "ku-ri-a-kos" or "ku-ri-a-kon." As you can see, this word doesn't even resemble the Greek word "ecclesia" whose place it has usurped. The meaning of "Ku-ri-a-kos" is understood by its root: "Ku- ri-os," which means "lord." Thus, "kuriakos" (i.e., "church") means "pertaining to the lord." It refers to something that pertains to, or belongs to, a lord. The Greek "kuriakos" eventually came to be used in Old English form as "cirice" (Kee-ree-ke), then "churche" (kerke), and eventually "church" in its traditional pronunciation. A church, then, is correctly something that "pertains to, or belongs to, a lord."
So basically it is a group of people that belong to a particular lord. Satan's church as opposed to Christ's church.

Just the goats (abominable church) and the sheep (Church of the Firstborn).

Fun!
Interesting that Jesus never called His disciples or those who followed His teachings a "church". Rather, He used the word "ecclesia" which refers to the "called out ones" or "assembly". The truth is Christ didn't start a "church" but rather His so-called "church" is in reality an Assembly of Christian Believers (in Jesus the Christ).

bbrown
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by bbrown »

Don't get too hung up on the word "church". It is also referred to as kingdom of the devil, the great whore, Babylon the great, etc. etc. The Catholic church played it's part, but how was it enforced? It is always by government! Constantine and his cohorts took what was left of Christianity and forced it on everyone by the power of the empire and killed, imprisoned, tortured etc whoever wouldn't "convert". Church and state were pretty much the same thing, high positions in government were controlled by high people in the church and visa-versa.

As far as government not being able to have it's own doctrines and and force them on the churches I would say look at what ours has done. Our official state religion is atheistic communism (maybe socialism, same thing) and it is taught by enforced priestcraft. Instead of teaching our children God created the earth and the heavens, we (not me) send our children off to be taught by the priestly class that everything comes from random chance and it just "evolved" that way. We are taught that whatsoever a man does is no crime and when we die that is the end thereof. The very things Corihor taught are the doctrines sanctioned and taught by our government, and if you step out of line they will come after you. Elder Oaks gave a talk on what's happening to our freedom of religion a couple years ago at BYU Idaho
http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Tran ... 3_Oaks.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The time will be soon when it all comes from the government.

I would second H. Verlan Anderson's Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, and C Bentley's Hidden Things of Darkness. Read those two and there is little doubt about what Nephi. John and the others were talking about.

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Lexew1899
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Re: The great abominable church

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This isn't specifically talking about churches?

2 Nephi 28:

3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—

4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.

17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

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Lexew1899
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Re: The great abominable church

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It seems like people are more worried about stepping on other churches toes than they are worried about what is black and white.

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mirkwood
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http://www.redhotlogo.com/1-Great%20and ... inable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AGStacker
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Re: The great abominable church

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This is in the Sunday manual for the lessons.

The titles "Church of the Devil" and "Great and Abominable Church" are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature--whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-- which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God. Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.

(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137-138)

CBentley
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Re: The great abominable church

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Lexew1899 wrote:What government or gang ever changed plain and precious things of the gospel? I don't know of any church that is given doctrine to follow from ANY government in the world. Please clarify.
Read The Articles of Faith and The Great Apostasy, both by James E. Talmage (see pages 246 and 73, respectively).

In both books, he documents how the Roman government made "every possible effort...to destroy the Church and abolish Christianity from the earth."

Diocletian, Talmage recounts, "directed [oppressive measures] ... not alone against the Christians as individuals and as a body, but against their sacred writings, which the fanatical monarch sought to destroy. To this end, he ordered a general destruction of Christian books, and decreed the penalty of death against all who kept such works in their possession."

How many books do you think were lost from the Bible from those actions alone?

It wasn't just changes made to the text; though there were plenty.

The Roman government tried to destroy ALL of the writings.

CBentley
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by CBentley »

Lexew1899 wrote:I always looked at the Catholic church as the one mentioned as the great and abominable church.
Respectfully, I used to think the same way. But if we read 1 Nephi 13:5-9, some questions to ask are: how many saints were alive at the time the Catholic Church was formed? How many saints were killed by that church?
Last edited by CBentley on January 30th, 2012, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CBentley
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Re: The great abominable church

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AGStacker wrote:This is in the Sunday manual for the lessons.

The titles "Church of the Devil" and "Great and Abominable Church" are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature--whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-- which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God. Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.

(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137-138)
There is no official position of the Church on the identity of this organization. It is a subject that is open for discussion.

I have my opinion; others have theirs.

Here's my take on the issue.

Read 1 Nephi 13:5 and D&C 18:20 closely, and then ask yourself two questions.

If the church of the devil is "most abominable above all other churches," how can it be at the same time "all the evil in the world"?

And if it is all the evil in the world, how can we comply with the commandment to contend against "no church save it be the church of the devil"?

Something doesn't add up.

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Lexew1899
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Re: The great abominable church

Post by Lexew1899 »

CBentley wrote:I have my opinion
Don't beat around the bush, who do you think it is CBently? Tell US pretty PLEASE!

Another thing I have thought, is what if the Catholic church unites itself with the Mahdi (Islamic Messiah) and the Pope at the time becomes the Prophet to the Mahdi. The religion could be a twisted combination of Catholicism and Islam. A satanic form that persecutes all true Christians.

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