D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

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Rosabella
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D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Michael_Quinn

Quinn's research came up on another thread. I found him to be an interesting topic, for he promotes the idea that the Mormon Church has occult roots. This is a great stepping stone for many to embrace these occult teachings today and great fuel for anti-Mormon propaganda. Sadly it also scares away wonderful Christians that should stay away from all occult organizations.
I thought it would be interesting to analyze the effects of Quinn and his work along with the man's integrity and understanding of the Gospel. Since he seems to be a source people look to for Mormon history, lets see who this man is and what he truly believes to figure out his real agenda.

Dennis Michael Quinn (born 1944) is a historian who has focused on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. From 1976 to 1988, he was a professor at Brigham Young University, after which he resigned. At the time, his work concerned church involvement with plural marriage after the 1890 Manifesto, in which the practice was officially renounced.

In September 1993, according to his biographer Lavina Fielding Anderson, his insubordination directed toward church authorities and his publication of his on-going work resulted in his excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as one of the September Six. Despite his excommunication and his open acknowledgment of his homosexual orientation[1], Quinn believes in the Latter Day Saint movement, although he is in disagreement with certain policies and doctrines. He continues to be a widely-cited Mormon historian by researchers and students of Mormonism.

Quinn's research topics, both before and after his excommunication, were in-depth revisions of traditional accounts of Mormon history grounded in primary source material. Three of his most influential books, each of which is the focal point of intense controversy, are Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, and The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power.

In an April 2006 article, Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Golden wrote that Quinn has become unhireable because almost all the funding for professorships in Mormon studies comes from Mormon donors. In 2003, Brigham Young University threatened to withdraw funding for a conference it was co-sponsoring at Yale if Quinn were allowed to speak. More recently Arizona State University administrators vetoed the department of religious studies in its recommendation to hire Quinn. ASU faculty believe officials fear alienating ASU’s 3,700 LDS students and offending Ira Fulton, a powerful Mormon donor who, according to Golden, has called Quinn a “nothing person.”[2]

In 2007, Quinn was interviewed in the PBS documentary The Mormons.

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
Early Mormonism and the Magic World View is an exhaustive recounting of the role of 19th-century New England folk magic lore in Joseph Smith's early visions and in the development of the Book of Mormon. The book argues that Smith's early religious experiences were inextricably intermingled with ritual, supernaturalism, and white magic. Evidence is drawn from friendly firsthand sources, unfriendly firsthand sources, material artifacts, and parallels in ideas. All four sources agree that Joseph Smith used a collection of different seer stones in searching for buried treasure supposedly left by pirates, Spaniards, and Native Americans. The evidence suggests that these same seer stones were one of the primary tools used by Smith in translating the Book of Mormon. Likewise, evidence from all four categories of sources supports the idea that Smith approved of the use of rods for dowsing activities. Indeed, the first published version of an early revelation told Oliver Cowdery that a dowsing rod (referred to as a "rod of nature") would serve as a means of receiving divine revelation. Other claims, including Smith's purported involvement in astrology and the idea that the Book of Mormon guardian Moroni transformed from the form of a salamander, are less supported by evidence.

Some historians, both within and without the Mormon faith, consider this book an important contribution in understanding early Mormon history, and Quinn's supporters feel his work is groundbreaking. In a 1990 book review in Church History, Klaus J. Hansen calls the book a "magisterial study" and a "tour de force," and describes it as providing a "truly stunning mass of evidence" in favor of its position. John L. Brooke made Quinn's argument the starting point of his study, The Refiner's Fire : The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844.

However, Mormon and non-Mormon scholars have also criticized the book as relying too heavily on environmental parallels without a proven connection to Smith's ideas and behavior, that it accepts at face value the disputed Howe-Hurlbut affidavits about Smith's New York reputation and behavior and a late 19th century newspaper account of a money-digging agreement involving Smith and his father, and that its central thesis is implausible without Mark Hofmann's "Salamander Letter"--which turned out to be a forgery. William J. Hamblin states in his review of the book that "the fact that Quinn could not discover a single primary source written by Latter-day Saints that makes any positive statement about magic is hardly dissuasive to a historian of Quinn's inventive capacity." An additional criticism suggests that the concept of magic is flawed and inherently subjective; it implies that Smith's use of seer stones and dowsing rods was superstitious or fraudulent rather than divine. However, some of Quinn's critics acknowledge that the book is "richly documented" (William A. Wilson in a 1989 book review in The Western Historical Quarterly) and an obligatory starting point for any discussion of Smith's involvement in 19th-century folkloric practices.

See link for rest of article
Last edited by Rosabella on February 22nd, 2010, 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mahonri
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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

A liberal Mormon interviews Quinn http://mormonstories.org/podcast/DMichaelQuinn.mp3


Maybe we can make this a beneficial discussion by getting a few things out of the way

Quinn is

1 a homosexual
2 excommunicated
3 I am friends of one of his friends so I also know he is an alcoholic and a thief of historical facts, not artifacts, just facts.
There may be more I am leaving out, but this is a good start.

But....
if you were to read on of his books, deleting all of his comments and just sticking with direct sources, he some really interesting information, not easily available.

Does he use that info in a way to hurt the Church? Absolutely. If understood in its proper context, removing modern understandings of things, is the information true? Almost all of it.

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

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Here are some quotes from The PBS movie he was interviewed on called The Mormons.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

"How did the church grow so fast and what kind of pressure came along with that?
Well, this was a terrible thing. I was a missionary, and my experience is true of all LDS missionaries. You're separated from your family, very often for the first time in your life. You're in an unusual environment. ... And then to be put under the situation that if you're really going to please your mission president, who's your kind of substitute father, you've got to come up with high numbers of baptisms. ... Missionaries just threw ethics to the wind, and they did whatever was necessary to do to please their mission presidents. ..."
Wow that was quite a statement that All missionaries throw ethics to the wind! That would be a confession if I ever heard one. So we know that he was willing to do just that.

In this special he refers to terms like this:

"I finally regained those spiritual feelings, that burning within that [St.] Bernard [of] Clairvaux, as a medieval mystic, had described, and faith returned."
"I was told as a missionary, "You will never be as close with your wife as you will be your missionary companion," which was irony, because I was a gay male.But all missionaries are told this, because they said very frankly, the missionary leaders would say, you will never be with your wife 24 hours a day. If you're a woman, you will never be with your husband 24 hours a day, day in, day out, for two years of your life, but you are with these missionary companions."
Hummm new one to me, never heard that said from any return missionaries.
"when I was 9; it was one of my more metaphysical experiences..."
Not a term Mormons use, but one the New Spirituality does.
'You were excommunicated. What happened, why did it happen, and how did you feel?

"Well, the problem was that -- well, actually, it was a double problem. I was getting reports back from people who had read and heard the things that I'd say that that, in fact, was how they were understanding it. They were saying: "Oh, thank you. This makes it understandable for me." ...

On the other hand, I was hearing officially from apostles, whom I regarded as God's chosen prophets and apostles on earth, that this kind of approach to history was not faith-promoting; that it was contrary to what God wanted. ...""But it became clear that criticisms from apostles of the LDS Church -- Mark E. Peterson, Boyd K. Packer, [Ezra Taft] Benson... "

It became clear to me, when I published a long article, almost 100 pages, about plural marriage after the Manifesto, that this was coming to a breaking point between me and the church, because my local LDS Church president, the stake president, was visited by a General Authority and told that I was to be called in and punished, and that at a minimum I was to lose my temple recommend, which was the basis for church employment, and I was a professor at BYU.

Then the leader of this meeting said, "And if this doesn't keep him from doing this kind of thing, you should take further action as appropriate." And he started to get up and walk out. He thought that was the end of it. And the stake president said, "Now, wait a minute." He said: "Michael Quinn gave me a copy of this article on plural marriage after the Manifesto. I and my counselors have read it, and we don't find anything in it that is contrary to faith. It talks about some difficult experiences the church went through, but we don't see this as a reason to punish him. ... And he hasn't done this secretly, and we don't see -- we've read it." And they asked, "Have you read it?" And he said, "No, I wouldn't read anti-Mormon trash." And they said, "Well, how can you judge that what he's written is destructive of the faith if you haven't read it?" And it went around and around, and finally after two and a half hours, the stake president said, "Well, I'll call Michael Quinn in, and I will explain to him what you have said to us, and then we'll go from there."

And this representative said: "Oh, no. You can't tell him that I told you what I've told you. You can't tell him that this came from church headquarters. This has to be your objection that he is to be informed of, that you have objected to, and that you're going to punish him for." And the stake president said: "I'm not going to lie to him, so you decide: Am I going to tell him the truth and call him in, or am I not going to say anything to him? Because I am not going to lie to him." This stunned this General Authority who had been sent from church headquarters, and he said, "Well, then you do [what] you feel you need to do."

So the stake president called me in and explained this whole process, including the fact that he had been told to lie to me and to say that this was his personal objection to what I'd published. The stake president said: "I feel obligated to do something. I have to do something." And he said: "I'm taking your temple recommend. You will not be able to go back to the temple without it. But," he said, "I'm afraid that they're going to use this as a grounds for firing you from BYU if you do not have temple recommend. So," he says, "if anyone at BYU asks if you have a valid temple recommend, you tell them yes, and don't volunteer that it's in my desk drawer. And when it expires, I'll renew it, but I'll keep it in my desk drawer."

And I knew at that moment that I was dead meat, that as long as that stake president was there to protect me I would be protected, but as soon as he was relieved of his position -- and these are temporary positions; it's a lay ministry -- and another stake president who was more compliant was in the position, or if I happened to move ... out of his stake, then I was dead meat. ...

I was fulfilling my mission as I felt that God had led me to, and yet it had put me on a collision course with the leadership of the church I regarded as his prophets. ... So I prayed a lot to God: "Help me to know. If I'm wrong, I'll confess that I'm wrong. If you want me to stop my research as a Mormon historian, I will." ...

And I received the confirmation that I had received since childhood of God's presence, of this burning within, of this sense of peace which, as Jesus says, passes all understanding. I felt that I was doing nothing wrong in what I published and that they were wrong in condemning me for it. I couldn't sort this out. It didn't make any sense to me, but I felt there was no way I was going to retreat, no matter what it required, and eventually it ended up in my excommunication."
This story is wrong at so many levels. We have a GA lying, then the Honest stake President who was so honest he could not lie for the GA then hides his temple recommend and says he will renew it and to try to keep it secret from BYU....um yeah sounds like that story is real. Well if a Stake President did that he was as much of an apostate as Quinn. Also GA's can have a person excommunicated without going through the local authorities. i can see where a quiet chastisement would be better then an all out condemnation from the GAs, but if the Stake President disagreed with what they supposedly asked he was not following the Church chain of authority. I do not believe any GA would tell anyone to lie, they might ask for wise caution or limited information being given and there is nothing wrong with that.
"Do you remember the day you got the letter?

...I dragged myself up, went to the door, and there was the stake president. I had never seen him before. ... I had been trying to stay under the radar, because I knew that they were after me, and I did not want to deal with that confrontation."
How did you respond when you read the letter? Had you been expecting it, or were you still incredulous?

No, I was expecting it, and I was mad as hell. ... It was like the old line from the movie [Network]: I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" I had never, prior to that, gone to the media. I had been quoted a lot, including [in] Newsweek and Time magazine, The New York Times, but it was always when the media came to me. ...

Well, this time I went to the media, and I produced for the local newspaper, The Salt Lake Tribune, a photocopy of this letter from the stake president so that they would see, and they ran articles: "Mormon historian being pursued." And this ended up as an AP [Associated Press] story. It was published in the Los Angeles Times before I got down to Los Angeles for this fellowship that I had at the Huntington Library. ...

I had hoped that the prospect of this being a black eye in public relations would make them back off, and they would tell the stake president, who I was sure was under orders because of my previous experience, that they would say, "Oh, well, on second thought, leave him alone; let him do his thing." But that's not what happened, and eventually I was excommunicated.
Wow manipulating the Church leaders did not work??? Big shocker!
[Would you like to be invited back into the church?]

I would have to say with a big if, and that is, if you stop using political power as a club against gays and lesbians. I cannot be silent about policies that I disagree with. That is the one great freedom that my excommunication has given me, because even though people thought I spoke up any time I chose, I really remained silent about deep disagreements with church policies during the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment] campaign of the LDS Church. I was on the faculty at BYU. I never spoke against it; I never wrote against it, even though I felt utterly that it was wrong.

I'm not going to go back into that closet of being a silent dissenter. So no, I could not accept an invitation to join the LDS Church again, because so many of its current policies are contrary to what I believe is the will of God.
Well the GAs could see through this man and his complete apostasy from the Church. He had secrets while he was pretending to be a faithful LDS member.
As a gay man, what are the special difficulties that you see for gays in the Mormon Church?

... In a society that doesn't accept homosexuality, ... everyone feels like they're alone and lonely, and they have to hide. But in Mormon culture it's worse because of the theology of the family. ... You have the opportunity of being together as a family forever if you are righteous enough, so Mormons live this frenetic life of doing and behaving in any way that the Scriptures or the leaders of the church tell them to, because they want this family unit to continue forever.

Well, when you're gay you realize you don't fit that picture. And when you come out to your parents as gay, their fear is indescribable, because it's not just that they've lost their image of you in terms of this heterosexual perception they have of you. Their fear is beyond the fear of other parents, because their fear is that they have the opportunity of having you with them for eternity, and now they've lost it because you are a disgusting homosexual, and nothing disgusting can be in the presence of God.
Well that is Mormon Doctrine so why try to say you are Mormon if you do not believe in the doctrines. This show the why's he tried to "change" Mormon history to reflect what he desired that homosexuality was accepting by the early church.

"You have to develop a private faith, which I have, that God accepts all loving relationships. But this separates you from the orthodoxy of the Mormon Church, and many gays and lesbians cannot make that step. They accept themselves as inferior eternally, because they've never been taught otherwise, and they don't have the individual testimony that I do. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my faith. So for the mass of Mormon families this is an unresolvable tragedy."

Yes this idea does not fit with the LDS Church but does fit with the New Spirituality.
"Elder Packer said, "I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth." I almost sunk into my chair. I mean, that statement just bowled me over.

Then he went on to say, quoting him as accurately as I can ...: "The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting." And he said, "Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians."
Wow so our GAs are such lairs that they want to hold back truths of history...hmmmm
What was that famous quote of his about the three dangers of the church? What was the importance of that statement?

At one point Boyd Packer, as one of the senior members of the Quorum of the Twelve [Apostles] at that point, gave instruction, in 1993 I believe, to a group of church leaders at the annual world conference of the LDS Church, and he instructed them that there were three dangers that the church faced. The three were the feminists, the gay and lesbians, and of course the ever-present problem of intellectuals and scholars, and that's how he phrased it. I lost on all three counts. ...
Yes and they are correct they are all dangerous path to go on and create much lies as we can see from this interview.
So conformity has become almost a watchword among the leaders as well as the rank and file in a way that never was true of Mormon experience prior to the 1960s. This has had an effect on independent thinking; it's had an effect in independent expressions of academics. And it has resulted in a kind of watchdog mentality, which even has a committee that is specifically assigned to look for any evidences of departures from orthodoxy or criticism by members of the church, especially if they're academics. This is a strengthening-of-the-members committee, which keeps files on anyone who publishes, writes letters to the editor in newspapers anywhere in the English-speaking world in particular.

This kind of inward paranoia has led to the disciplining of those who have been perceived as departing from the expectations of headquarters, and I'm one of the examples of that, for publishing historical issues that were regarded as contrary to what the leadership wanted the rank and file to know.
Right and lets not forget all the other things you Mr Quinn believe in and practice that is considered apostasy.

Rosabella
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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:A liberal Mormon interviews Quinn http://mormonstories.org/podcast/DMichaelQuinn.mp3


Maybe we can make this a beneficial discussion by getting a few things out of the way

Quinn is

1 a homosexual
2 excommunicated
3 I am friends of one of his friends so I also know he is an alcoholic and a thief of historical facts, not artifacts, just facts.
There may be more I am leaving out, but this is a good start.

But....
if you were to read on of his books, deleting all of his comments and just sticking with direct sources, he some really interesting information, not easily available.

Does he use that info in a way to hurt the Church? Absolutely. If understood in its proper context, removing modern understandings of things, is the information true? Almost all of it.
The problem lies in not knowing what is true and what is not. Why go to an author that is known to lie and twist things. I would only use his data to find original sources, but in doing that you are exposing yourself to many many false teachings. What worth does his data really hold that we cannot acquire from honest authors really?

We are given a key to discernment from the scriptures to help us not be deceived. Here is the scripture: Moroni 7

I wrote an article this topic "Lucifer appearing as an Angel of Light: Bitter Fountains Tasting Sweet"
http://www.beguilementoftheworld.father ... com/?p=937

We have to be very careful where we get our data from, for a bitter fountain can not bring forth good water.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

He by his own admission does not believe in the policies and doctrines of the Church. What he will present as much as you try to sort through it to try to pick out truth is like trying to find pure water droplets in the bitter fountain. They all have been poisoned for the goal and reason of their use was impure. In using his material the ONLY use they could have is to lead on to an original source and for one to research it out for themselves. I do not feel we should be using such tainted material to find truth, truth comes from pure waters not bitter. We have more than enough pure water to read to keep us busy for a life time. Why delve into bitter fountains looking for truth? His work would be better used to find out the lies than the truths in it.

Rosabella
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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Hear is how some of Micheal Quinn's research is used. This was sent to me by a forum member.

http://www.mormonelixirs.org/

Restoration and the Sacred Mushroom
Did Joseph Smith use Psychedelic Substances
to Facilitate Visionary Experiences?
Presented at the Sunstone Symposium, August 2007
by
Robert T. Beckstead
"Did hallucinogens facilitate Joseph Smith's visions & those of early Mormon converts? In his 1975 book, Hearts Made Glad, Lamar Petersen carefully documented the use of intoxicants by Joseph Smith and early converts to the LDS Church. While mostly interested in the consumption of various fermented and distilled alcohols, Petersen also noted strange behaviors associated with the sacramental use of what seemed to outside observers to be medicated wine. It appears that soon after the Church was organized in New York and later in Ohio, members partook of wine in sacrament meetings which occasioned visionary states and strange behaviors not typically associated with alcohol consumption or intoxication. It is my thesis that beginning at a young age, Joseph Smith experimented with psychedelic plants and that many of Joseph Smith revelations and much of his behavior can be attributed to the use of psychedelics."
"D. Michael Quinn and Lance S. Owens have shown that Joseph Smith incorporated elements of ceremonial magic and alchemy imported from Europe.23 Alchemists are believed to have employed the visionary Amanita muscaria mushroom in their occult practices24 and Lance Owens identifies a possible alchemical mentor for Joseph Smith by the name of Dr. Luman Walter. 25 Quinn writes,

As previously discussed, folk magic and the occult involved training, practice, and inner "gifts" to be an adept. Academic magic required occult texts,
hundreds of which were available in English by the 1800s (see ch. 1, and above). Folk magic's universal source of instruction was the occult's oral tra-
dition which summarized centuries-old writings for all classes of people. Many people gained occult knowledge from both directions. Aside from verbal transmission of occult knowledge, some adepts also furnished practical training to interested persons. (Quinn. Early Mormonism. 116)"There is evidence that Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, used seer stones, and Joseph may have gained most of his knowledge regarding their use from her, but Quinn also points to the probability that Joseph had one or more occult mentors, Luman Walters being primary among them. (Clay L. Chandler, Scrying for the Lord: Magic, Mysticism, and the Origins of the Book of Mormon. DIALOGUE: A JOURNAL OF MORMON THOUGHT, VOL. 36, No. 4, WINTER 2003. p. 43)

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Cowell »

Bella,

You don't believe J.S. searched for treasure, used a number of seer stones throughout his life, and believed in astrology?

Rosabella
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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Cowell wrote:Bella,

You don't believe J.S. searched for treasure, used a number of seer stones throughout his life, and believed in astrology?
No not the way that it is being presented. If so then he was an occultist therefore a follower of Lucifer which he was not.

Astrology is considered completely wicked in the Scriptures.

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

Bella wrote: Why go to an author that is known to lie and twist things.
IMO, because too many "faithful" twist it in an effort to protect the Church. I don't think the Church needs protecting, but they disagree.

Bella wrote: We have to be very careful where we get our data from, for a bitter fountain can not bring forth good water.
I agree

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

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Bella wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella,

You don't believe J.S. searched for treasure, used a number of seer stones throughout his life, and believed in astrology?
No not the way that it is being presented. If so then he was an occultist therefore a follower of Lucifer which he was not.

Astrology is considered completely wicked in the Scriptures.

yes, and no. It was evil when Satan was the one they were going to for the info. Good when it was Heavenly Father was the one they were going to. Old Testament and Abraham is full of "astrology"

We really have a lot of unlaerning to do from what we got from apostate Christianity on this stuff.

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:
Bella wrote: Why go to an author that is known to lie and twist things.
IMO, because too many "faithful" twist it in an effort to protect the Church. I don't think the Church needs protecting, but they disagree.

Bella wrote: We have to be very careful where we get our data from, for a bitter fountain can not bring forth good water.
I agree
It would be great to see such evidence of faithful LDS scholars twisting truth to protect the Church. Please post them if you can :) It tends to be the belief of many that the only true scholars are those that appear to expose something instead of supporting that they are involved on a personal level. This is not just in the Church, but in the world. This makes them appear none bias, in truth they usually are biased but people do not know their secret bias. This is my biased opinion ;)

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:
Bella wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella,

You don't believe J.S. searched for treasure, used a number of seer stones throughout his life, and believed in astrology?
No not the way that it is being presented. If so then he was an occultist therefore a follower of Lucifer which he was not.

Astrology is considered completely wicked in the Scriptures.

yes, and no. It was evil when Satan was the one they were going to for the info. Good when it was Heavenly Father was the one they were going to. Old Testament and Abraham is full of "astrology"

We really have a lot of unlaerning to do from what we got from apostate Christianity on this stuff.
Astrology is condemned by the Church. Just look it up on LDS.org. It is not because of Christianity we have a wrong idea of it. There is a difference of Astronomy and Astrology. There in lies the difference in the scriptures. The Lord may use signs from heaven but it is not Astrology. There is a big difference.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by ShawnC »

Is not astrology a study of the effects of the stars and such on us, (i.e. I'm a Taurus, what's your sign baby)? Astronomy on the other hand is what Abraham did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

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Bella wrote:The Lord may use signs from heaven but it is not Astrology. There is a big difference.
Whatever you call it, signs in the Heavens and using those signs to know about events is a way our Father in Heaven has always worked.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

Cowell wrote:Bella, have you ever read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? I meant Astrology many Mormon's believed in it, long after Joseph Smith. You aren't going to win this argument if you don't know this stuff.

II think that is what she is getting at is this book is bunk. Much of it is a stretch, but the direct links to peep stones, talismans, mars daggers, and blood stones are irrefutable, and consistent with the scriptures. We use "magic" circles every day.

A counterfeit dollar bill looks like a real dollar bill. So does the counterfeit Gospel

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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:
Bella wrote:The Lord may use signs from heaven but it is not Astrology. There is a big difference.
Whatever you call it, signs in the Heavens and using those signs to know about events is a way our Father in Heaven has always worked.
But not by Astrology. I think I will post some quotes from the Church on this matter.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

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Mahonri wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella, have you ever read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? I meant Astrology many Mormon's believed in it, long after Joseph Smith. You aren't going to win this argument if you don't know this stuff.
II think that is what she is getting at is this book is bunk.
I still want to know if she has read it. It doesn't seem like it.
Bella wrote:But not by Astrology. I think I will post some quotes from the Church on this matter.
I know the Church has spoken out against it. That doesn't change the fact that members once practiced it including church leaders.

Rosabella
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Cowell wrote:
Mahonri wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella, have you ever read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? I meant Astrology many Mormon's believed in it, long after Joseph Smith. You aren't going to win this argument if you don't know this stuff.
II think that is what she is getting at is this book is bunk.
I still want to know if she has read it.
On the other thread I stated that I am not all that familiar with Micheal Quinn. I am researching him now. What I finding is very very disturbing. I did not know we were in a game to Win an argument. I started this thread to ask if he was a pro-New spirituality and anti-LDS. As I am reading many of his documents he really seems to fit that category.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by ShawnC »

Cowell wrote:
Mahonri wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella, have you ever read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? I meant Astrology many Mormon's believed in it, long after Joseph Smith. You aren't going to win this argument if you don't know this stuff.
II think that is what she is getting at is this book is bunk.
I still want to know if she has read it. It doesn't seem like it.
Bella wrote:But not by Astrology. I think I will post some quotes from the Church on this matter.
I know the Church has spoken out against it. That doesn't change the fact that members once practiced it including church leaders.

Joseph Smith drank wine while in Carthage. John Taylor practiced polygamy after the manifesto. I suppose we all should as well?

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Mahonri
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Re: Micheal Quinn:Friend of New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

Bella wrote:
But not by Astrology. I think I will post some quotes from the Church on this matter.
I said I don't care what you call it. The source of it is what matters. That is the distinction made in the scriptures.

We are watching the heavens for signs of the times.

Rosabella
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:
Cowell wrote:Bella, have you ever read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? I meant Astrology many Mormon's believed in it, long after Joseph Smith. You aren't going to win this argument if you don't know this stuff.

II think that is what she is getting at is this book is bunk. Much of it is a stretch, but the direct links to peep stones, talismans, mars daggers, and blood stones are irrefutable, and consistent with the scriptures. We use "magic" circles every day.

A counterfeit dollar bill looks like a real dollar bill. So does the counterfeit Gospel
Good explanation :)

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

ShawnC wrote:

Joseph Smith drank wine while in Carthage.
And?
ShawnC wrote: John Taylor practiced polygamy after the manifesto.


Not touching that one.
ShawnC wrote:
I suppose we all should as well?
straw man

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

What the Scriptures Say about Astrology, Divination, Spirit Mediums, Magic, Wizardry, and Necromancy
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
It is clearly seen from the foregoing passages that belief in astrology, spirit mediums, etc., did not constitute the true religion taught by the prophets and patriarchs, but was characteristic of the false religions practiced by the surrounding nations that had departed from the Lord.
An "observer of times" is an astrologer.

What Do the Scriptures Say about Astrology?
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
“What Do the Scriptures Say about Astrology?,” Tambuli, Oct 1979, 31

Lev. 19:31: “Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.”

Deut. 18:9–14: “When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

“Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

“For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

“Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.

“For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.”

Isa. 8:19–20: “And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to hear from the dead?

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

Dan. 2:27–28: “Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;

“But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.”

2 Kings 23:5 [2 Kgs. 23:5]: King Josiah “put down the idolatrous priests, … and … them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets.”

ShawnC
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by ShawnC »

Mahonri wrote:
ShawnC wrote:

Joseph Smith drank wine while in Carthage.
And?
ShawnC wrote: John Taylor practiced polygamy after the manifesto.


Not touching that one.
ShawnC wrote:
I suppose we all should as well?
straw man

Not a straw man. Simon pointed out that many church leaders practiced astrology. Church leaders did many strange things. Joseph Smith had a very sordid past. It seems we should be a little more interested with what the church is saying today.

Or we could be devils advocate and argue for the sake of?

Rosabella
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Rosabella »

ShawnC wrote:
Mahonri wrote:
ShawnC wrote:

Joseph Smith drank wine while in Carthage.
And?
ShawnC wrote: John Taylor practiced polygamy after the manifesto.


Not touching that one.
ShawnC wrote:
I suppose we all should as well?
straw man

Not a straw man. Simon pointed out that many church leaders practiced astrology. Church leaders did many strange things. Joseph Smith had a very sordid past. It seems we should be a little more interested with what the church is saying today.

Or we could be devils advocate and argue for the sake of?

And what is sad is this "sordid" past is truly misinformation and lies from those with an agenda. That is my point with Quinn. Lets say I wrote in my journal an experience I had with a prophet when I was mad at him, or told someone a story etc. Are my words absolute truth or would you consider it hearsay and unreliable data. Much of what is out there is not from reliable sources, just data like the example I just gave. I know where the Church stands now on these matters. It is clear. The history unfortunately is not always accurate and the researchers are not always truthful. So I suggest we look at what our doctrines our taught today. It is interesting that on this site many people believe that history has been rewritten by the PTB, could that not be the case with these thing too. Could there not be a bunch of Salamander type letters that were put there to deceive and lead one astray?

That is why I would caution anyone reading Quinn.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Mahonri »

ShawnC wrote: Church leaders did many strange things. Joseph Smith had a very sordid past. It seems we should be a little more interested with what the church is saying Or we could be devils advocate and argue for the sake of?
:shock: What do you mean by that?

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