D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

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Squally
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Squally »

Bella wrote:One only needs to listen to his split tongue to know where his heart truly lies. In one breath he says the Church is true and he has a testimony and in the other breath he says that he does not agree with the Church in many core doctrinal areas. These two beliefs cannot exist in one that has a true testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church .
Great point!!!!

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serenitylala
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by serenitylala »

I found this on Denver Snuffer's blog and thought it was so perfect for this thread:


Denver Snuffer:

In response to a critic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and you do not. I'm content to let you disbelieve. Why are you not content to let me believe? One of us is clearly mistaken, but I am content with both my belief and your disbelief.

Of the two of us, I think your hostility toward my position reveals an underlying insecurity about your confidence in your position.

I am prepared to be everlastingly judged on the basis of my beliefs. I insist the Lord has every right to hold me accountable for what I believe, do, think, say and how I behave.
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ritic.html

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

Who's Denver?

jk
:wink:

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serenitylala
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by serenitylala »

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:Who's Denver?

jk
:wink:

I thought you'd like that one. Thanks BTW for the link, it was awesome.

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kathyn
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by kathyn »

Who's Denver?
Denver Snuffer is a wonderful author. I read his book "The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil" and it was very spiritual.

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

ndjili wrote:njb. I'm not understanding where you are going with all of this.


Sometimes when you write you go a little back and forth and sometimes it can be a little confusing.

I think Joseph had enough education about evil after the first vision. .
According to the timeline of JS’s own account, the 1826 incident would have come during a period of prophetic preparation. In his History of the Church, JS claims he was visited by God the Father and the Son around 1820 and then the angel Moroni three years later. The latter visitor showed JS the location of "gold plates" and instructed him to return to the place each year on the same date. In 1827, after four years, JS allegedly received the plates which he claimed to translate into the Book of Mormon.36

According to numerous sources, the delay in receiving the plates was due to JS’s lack of preparation. Oliver Cowdery wrote in 1835 that JS was unable to overcome his baser motives at the first visit of Moroni. When he saw the gold plates, Mr. Cowdery said JS began calculating how to "add to his store of wealth … without once thinking of the solemn instruction of the heavenly messenger, that all must be done with an express view of glorifying God." Cowdery’s account states that the angel prevented JS from removing the plates on the first visit, explaining that "the commandment was strict, and … if ever these sacred things are obtained they must be by prayer and faithfulness in obeying the Lord."37 JS’s mother,
Lucy Smith, told of the angel Moroni describing, "the operation of a good Spirit and an evil one," urging JS to avoid the greed of money-digging and to follow a different course, to "keep your mind always staid upon God that no evil may come into your heart
."38 Martin Harris remembered JS saying that "the angel told him he must quit the company of the money-diggers. That there were wicked men among them. He must have no more to do with them. He must not lie, nor swear, nor steal."39 From these accounts, it is obvious that those close to JS understood the four-year delay as a kind of probation in which he was to abandon any temporal use of his "gift" to concentrate on his divine call.
ndjili,

Let me try again.

As I stated, Joseph went thru a process.
Also, I don't think Joseph was an actual "Prophet" until after the Priesthood Restoration.

There was no doubt he had spiritual gifts, was a Seer after the First Vision, however he was not a Prophet at that time, that would come later, after years of tutoring from Moroni and learning exactly what he needed to do to stay worthy of that calling -the same way it happened to other prophets such as Moses and Joseph of Egypt.

Even Nephi in First Nephi, had his struggles and wrote about them, he had to go thru a process of realizing his calling.

My point is, we need to put things in the proper perspective, we live in the modern age, and have much more access to people's histories than 2000 years ago or 4000 years ago. That shouldn't be a detriment, we should only have more empathy for righteous people who were chosen by God.

In the Bible, we have a page of scripture that sometimes covers 100-500 years, and the important things are there, however many, many of the nuanced behaviors of the Prophets are missing-that info is not pertinent to our Salvation. That we live in the modern age, sometimes we hear about the nuanced or imperfections of our leaders, however we should discern credible information, when it's presented and is credible- accept it, but never lose focus of the big picture.

This information doesn't shake my testimony, nor should it yours. You see, I happened upon 30 years ago, while preparing for my mission, I knew that there was an explanation for it and I would find it one day. In the final analysis it makes me appreciate Joseph even more.

In the next life, I hope to embrace Joseph's bosom and kiss his hands for unearthing and translating the Golden Plates, I will thank him for all of his sacrifices he made and would hope to get better acquainted with him. Imagine the stories he'll be able to share!

And after that I would hope to be worthy enough to be led to The Savior and kneel and worship at His feet.


I hope this clarify things, and no I don't like Quinn, it's apparent he has an agenda.


njb
Last edited by notjamesbond003.5 on February 27th, 2010, 9:27 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

kathyn wrote:
Who's Denver?
Denver Snuffer is a wonderful author. I read his book "The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil" and it was very spiritual.
kathyn,

I know who Denver is, you missed the attempted humor between another poster and I.

I have read his books.

You need to read "Come let Us Adore Him".
It will knock your socks off and you'll be floored.

njb
Last edited by notjamesbond003.5 on February 28th, 2010, 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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serenitylala
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by serenitylala »

You know what I love most about prophets: Is that they are normal people?

I once asked: What is the difference between a prophet of God and a normal person?

The answer was: Diligence

And I was provided a second witness in the general conference that happened a week after that, Elder Uchtdorf said that President Monson was extremely diligent and that's what made him who he was.

ndjili
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by ndjili »

Look I know these men are men. I'm not naive. I know and read church history. I've read much apostate stuff. I heard alot. My testimony isnt shaken. If you go back and actually read what I've said, I said it's amazing what God can do with such imperfect men. But some people come to a conclusion due to disinformationalists such as Quinn that make it seem like Joseph Smith was doing things that pretty much (even back then, which it why accusing Joseph of such things was to discredit him) that amount to witchcraft. I'm opposed to these false ideas and do NOT believe Joseph ever meddled with the powers of Satan. I dont care when he was an actual prophet. I'm pretty sure that after hisfirst vision and being taught there by the Lord and then being taught by Moroni and with things he already knew that he stayed away from such things.
The power comes from one side or the other and I believe that his came from only one and that's God.

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

ndjili wrote:Look I know these men are men. I'm not naive. I know and read church history. I've read much apostate stuff. I heard alot. My testimony isnt shaken. If you go back and actually read what I've said, I said it's amazing what God can do with such imperfect men. But some people come to a conclusion due to disinformationalists such as Quinn that make it seem like Joseph Smith was doing things that pretty much (even back then, which it why accusing Joseph of such things was to discredit him) that amount to witchcraft. I'm opposed to these false ideas and do NOT believe Joseph ever meddled with the powers of Satan. I dont care when he was an actual prophet. I'm pretty sure that after hisfirst vision and being taught there by the Lord and then being taught by Moroni and with things he already knew that he stayed away from such things.
The power comes from one side or the other and I believe that his came from only one and that's God.
ndjili,

I think you're right in the first half of your post.

Also, Quinn made the focus of his work on the imperfections, and has spread false information as well- on our early church members and leaders.

Where I have to part from you is where you claim that Joseph didn't realize that he was involved in what you label witchcraft. First of all it wasn't "witchcraft", Joseph was not casting spells on people, chanting or worshiping "Mother Earth or worshiping different goddess" -that's what most would consider "witchcraft" Joseph wasn't Wiccan.

What Joseph was dealing was with how to become acclimated with his spiritual gifts that he was blessed with, and he didn't get in what he was doing at the time while he was treasure hunting was displeasing to Heavenly Father-it's that simple. At that point in time Joseph didn't understand he was dealing with earthbound and clever spirits. Moroni would later explain, counsel and chastise him for it. I can find that (the quote) if you want, if you don't believe me that Joseph, in his own words admitted to this fact. (being chastised by Moroni).

Once Joseph was made aware of that by Moroni: he stopped. His mother, Oliver and Martin said as much too.
We needn't focus on it this, only understand it in the proper perspective and move on.

Another blessing for us members is that because Joseph went thru this, we are counseled by our current leaders, who hold the Holy Priesthood- not to go to soothsayers, mediums or physics. We must remember Joseph didn't have the Priesthood yet; nor church leaders to guide and counsel (only Moroni) him, but we do and we are blessed because of it.

Therefore, we as members need to give Joseph a pass on this, Heavenly Father already has, although non members and apostates are always tempted and happy to label Joseph something he wasn't :because they're not after the unvarnished, whole truth-only a talking point to discredit Joseph out of fear and/or ignorance or other ill placed agendas.

njb
Last edited by notjamesbond003.5 on February 28th, 2010, 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ndjili
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by ndjili »

Ok we're not understanding each other because we are talking about 2 totally diffeent things.

I'm NOT talking about Joseph treasure hunting or doing stupid things. NOT.

I start trying to talk about something else and I think you thought I was talking about this stuff and I'm not.

I think we're just misunderstanding each other.

I was talking about how people have used Quinn's work to essentially say that Joseph was doing other things and thus justifing doing these things themselves.

I KNOW Joseph looked for treasure. Heck how many guys do that now with their metal detectors and what not. Who cares.

I KNOW Joseph was human and made mistakes.

I prefer not to speculate what they were but I'm pretty sure of a few things they're not.

I was saying that just because Quinn says Joseph did astrology doesnt mean he did and it's no excuse to do it now. I'm talking about things along those lines.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

perfect.

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serenitylala
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by serenitylala »

ndjili wrote:
I was saying that just because Quinn says Joseph did astrology doesnt mean he did and it's no excuse to do it now. I'm talking about things along those lines.

I think Quinn just didn't know how to spell. Because Joseph did astronomy, not astrology. :lol: So, I suggest we buy Quinn a dictionary and that should take care of everything. ;) :lol:

Here's a small story that I love of Joseph:

Two men came to interview him. When they went to leave, Joseph drew a line in the dirt with his boot and said something like, I bet I can jump farther across this line than you.

The two men looked each other indignant and left with a huff.

Joseph's friend looked at him and asked, "What'd you do that for?"

Joseph laughed and said, "Those men came to find fault with me. I didn't want them to leave disappointed."


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iamse7en
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church

Post by iamse7en »

Really interesting, lengthy interview with Michael Quinn: http://mormonstories.org/?p=1787" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3rd episode not nearly as interesting, but make sure you listen to the first two. Clearly, many of us won't agree with some of his conclusions, but it was an, at times, fascinating discussion.

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iamse7en
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church

Post by iamse7en »

Haha, just finished Magic World View, so it was fun to read this entire thread for the first time. Bottom line: dude spent years... decades researching this topic. His whole deal was to find EVERY possible connection, parallel, story, teaching, journal entry, WHATEVER that had anything to do with folk magic in Mormonism's origins and history. Were some parallels tenuous? Yes. Did he extrapolate what books were near Joseph Smith, what he could have read, and what could have influenced him, etc? Of course. Historians find whatever evidence they can find regarding their "thesis," they downplay evidence that hurts their thesis, and overplay evidence that helps. In one breath he says Lucy Mack is the credible source that supposedly proves their family did folk magic, and in the next breath says Lucy Mack is dead wrong about her own son in saying he wasn't real well-read. Because one aspect helps his thesis, and the other hurts. He provides many other sources and parallels to try and strengthen or weaken those premises... I tried to be objective, not be swayed by his at-times, ridiculous commentary and stretched conclusions.

But this book is a mammoth of source material and has FASCINATING events, statements, and teachings from or about our early Mormon leaders. I'm sure some sources may be fraudulent or misleading or whatever. But if even half the sources are complete fabrications (which isn't a possibility), the fact still remains: Joseph Smith and many of his contemporaries inside and outside the church participated in all kinds of practices that can be termed folk magic. And much of it stayed with Joseph throughout his life. Interpret it how you want. I believe the Lord used the culture around him to prepare him for great things. I also think that growing up in this environment was probably the best way to get this kid to have the faith to do the amazing things he did. The environment we have today is so secularized, exaggeration of rational reason, where mens hearts are waxed completely cold. The magic world view that Joseph grew up around was perfect training ground to create a prophet. Even if an outsider or anti-Mormon read the book, you cannot doubt that there was some crazy, supernatural things going on with Joseph Smith. Too many sources, too many people were party to these supernatural things. There were also many other contemporaries (completely unrelated to the Church) that also experienced supernatural things, many people claimed to be seers who looked into their hats. Other people claimed to even have visions of God (and sometimes His Son as well) and ancient records they were to translate. The bottom line (as it always is in discerning prophets from sorcerers to regular boys with an evangelical experience): by their fruits ye shall know them. "Try the spirits," ;) .

I LOVED the book. I was frustrated by his tactics at times, but there is a wealth of amazing Church history in here. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened immensely. Joseph's story is just so amazing, and the magic world view gives a fascinating prism into his story. I understand this book would be troubling to people who are completely unaware of our early leaders' involvement with activities, ideas, or practices that are so foreign to us... It's unfortunate that we, even LDS, are so secularized, brainwashed, or spoon-fed or what-have-you... that even the simple idea that the entire Book of Mormon came about while Joseph had his face buried in a hat. That simple story would drive many people to complete doubt, perhaps leave the Church and stop living True Masonry, True Astrology, True Fortune-Telling, True Stone-Peeping, True Magic, whatever you want to call it... the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's too bad. The correlation (and disingenuous apologetics) is backfiring, and hopefully people will take a deeper look into the rich history that is the Origins of Mormonism... yes, it's magical. Darn it, the entire story is magical. Joseph said he wouldn't believe it himself if it hadn't happened to him. As the information age gets even brighter, as more and more light is shown on Mormon History, as secularization continues to weaken us and wax our hearts cold... the dead branches will be shaken off this tree that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We haven't seen nothing yet, but to throw out this entire book and the perspective it can give you because of Quinn's tactics, personal history, or whatever - I think is a silly mistake. Go read it. I'm glad I did!

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church

Post by Mahonri »

iamse7en wrote:Haha, just finished Magic World View, so it was fun to read this entire thread for the first time. Bottom line: dude spent years... decades researching this topic. His whole deal was to find EVERY possible connection, parallel, story, teaching, journal entry, WHATEVER that had anything to do with folk magic in Mormonism's origins and history. Were some parallels tenuous? Yes. Did he extrapolate what books were near Joseph Smith, what he could have read, and what could have influenced him, etc? Of course. Historians find whatever evidence they can find regarding their "thesis," they downplay evidence that hurts their thesis, and overplay evidence that helps. In one breath he says Lucy Mack is the credible source that supposedly proves their family did folk magic, and in the next breath says Lucy Mack is dead wrong about her own son in saying he wasn't real well-read. Because one aspect helps his thesis, and the other hurts. He provides many other sources and parallels to try and strengthen or weaken those premises... I tried to be objective, not be swayed by his at-times, ridiculous commentary and stretched conclusions.

But this book is a mammoth of source material and has FASCINATING events, statements, and teachings from or about our early Mormon leaders. I'm sure some sources may be fraudulent or misleading or whatever. But if even half the sources are complete fabrications (which isn't a possibility), the fact still remains: Joseph Smith and many of his contemporaries inside and outside the church participated in all kinds of practices that can be termed folk magic. And much of it stayed with Joseph throughout his life. Interpret it how you want. I believe the Lord used the culture around him to prepare him for great things. I also think that growing up in this environment was probably the best way to get this kid to have the faith to do the amazing things he did. The environment we have today is so secularized, exaggeration of rational reason, where mens hearts are waxed completely cold. The magic world view that Joseph grew up around was perfect training ground to create a prophet. Even if an outsider or anti-Mormon read the book, you cannot doubt that there was some crazy, supernatural things going on with Joseph Smith. Too many sources, too many people were party to these supernatural things. There were also many other contemporaries (completely unrelated to the Church) that also experienced supernatural things, many people claimed to be seers who looked into their hats. Other people claimed to even have visions of God (and sometimes His Son as well) and ancient records they were to translate. The bottom line (as it always is in discerning prophets from sorcerers to regular boys with an evangelical experience): by their fruits ye shall know them. "Try the spirits," ;) .

I LOVED the book. I was frustrated by his tactics at times, but there is a wealth of amazing Church history in here. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened immensely. Joseph's story is just so amazing, and the magic world view gives a fascinating prism into his story. I understand this book would be troubling to people who are completely unaware of our early leaders' involvement with activities, ideas, or practices that are so foreign to us... It's unfortunate that we, even LDS, are so secularized, brainwashed, or spoon-fed or what-have-you... that even the simple idea that the entire Book of Mormon came about while Joseph had his face buried in a hat. That simple story would drive many people to complete doubt, perhaps leave the Church and stop living True Masonry, True Astrology, True Fortune-Telling, True Stone-Peeping, True Magic, whatever you want to call it... the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's too bad. The correlation (and disingenuous apologetics) is backfiring, and hopefully people will take a deeper look into the rich history that is the Origins of Mormonism... yes, it's magical. Darn it, the entire story is magical. Joseph said he wouldn't believe it himself if it hadn't happened to him. As the information age gets even brighter, as more and more light is shown on Mormon History, as secularization continues to weaken us and wax our hearts cold... the dead branches will be shaken off this tree that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We haven't seen nothing yet, but to throw out this entire book and the perspective it can give you because of Quinn's tactics, personal history, or whatever - I think is a silly mistake. Go read it. I'm glad I did!
I also read it and thought you were spot on. I think Quinn would have made his point better by not jumping to so many conclusions and sticking to scholarly work, and that would have made the book 90% smaller, but exponentially better. Again iamse7en is spot on

firend
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spiriuality& Foe of LDS Church?

Post by firend »

Rosabella wrote:Maybe we need to start an Astrology thread. Do we or do we not? If this is an issue lets discuss it.

It might help to remember truth always has a counterfeit. Dean Quinn has some fantastic stuff, but he also throws in his own twists.

Joseph had a seer stone, so did hyrum page and he was getting info from wrong source

Oliver cowedly used a dousing rod approved by God, but others use it in satanism

there probably are elements to astrology that are correct, but as we see astrology practiced today it is used by satan.

So there are many things Dean Quinn has found about Joseph's life that are awesome, if you understand

1. Joseph was an imperfect man and made errors sometimes
2. Some of the so called magic stuff the way Joseph used it was not of satan, but twisted by Quinn to seem like the occult.

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iamse7en
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church

Post by iamse7en »

New, very long article in Slate about Quinn. Very interesting with some details I didn't know about. Obviously written with a liberal/skeptical bias. Still interesting nonetheless.

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iamse7en
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by iamse7en »

Latest release date for Quinn's forthcoming book: Jan 2016

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church

Post by TannerG »

iamse7en wrote:New, very long article in Slate about Quinn. Very interesting with some details I didn't know about. Obviously written with a liberal/skeptical bias. Still interesting nonetheless.
There he told a story about the time Packer embarrassed him in front of fellow church leaders as apparent payback for a slight from six years before. “Elder Packer,” he told Quinn, “will never get over this.
I wonder what that story was all about.

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Tony
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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Tony »

Oh my goodness! I have stumbled on to a pro-Denver Snuffer weirdo apostate subforum. At least someone was right about Quinn being an apostate fruitcake.

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Bee Prepared »

Tony wrote:Oh my goodness! I have stumbled on to a pro-Denver Snuffer weirdo apostate subforum. At least someone was right about Quinn being an apostate fruitcake.

Save yourself, get out of there! :))

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by Original_Intent »

Wow, a thread started by rosabella - that's a blast from the past!

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Re: D Micheal Quinn:Pro New Spirituality & Foe of LDS Church?

Post by pjbrownie »

I found that book was like reading dry Hogwarts catacombs from the mid sixteenth century. Full of facts it was like reading a dictionary, short on speculation, with only the last chapter being ask that intriguing.

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