Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

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BroJones
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Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by BroJones »

I have two friends now who are asking - what scientific proof do we have that the earth is spherical and not a flat disk?

Note that they reject all NASA/government photos. Gotta find another "proof."

Should be easy right? OK, so what is the easiest experiment that can be done, to prove curvature?
Note that there are various flat-earth models, trying to explain seasons, day and night, etc. - but what they have in common is this:
PREMISE: Flatness, i.e., NO curvature over large bodies of water.

So the first experiment that comes to mind is to test viewing over water, using a surveyor's scope to assure that the scope remains level - as, for example, a ship sails away from the viewer. But I need an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected, and the image below is what I've found.... The equation seems reasonable, but has no derivation or reference - not good.

SO - can anyone help with an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected? including a source/reference.

We should be able to do an experiment to show earth's curvature and not just take the "consensus view" - right?
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nvr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by nvr »

This stuff goes back aways, apparently. Whichever equation is used it is important when testing it in real life to do the measurements at a level high enough above the ground to avoid atmospheric refraction, which can affect results. A surveyor in 1870 repeated the Bedford Level experiment at a higher distance from ground level and was able to easily show curvature:
John Hampden offered a wager that he could show, by repeating Rowbotham's experiment, that the earth was flat. The noted naturalist and qualified surveyor Alfred Russel Wallace accepted the wager. Wallace, by virtue of his surveyor's training and knowledge of physics, avoided the errors of the preceding experiments and won the bet.[5][6] The crucial steps were to (1) set a sight line 13 feet (4 m) above the water, and thereby reduce the effects of atmospheric refraction and (2) add a pole in the middle that could be used to see the "bump" caused by the curvature of the earth between the two end points.[1] Despite Hampden initially refusing to accept the demonstration, Wallace was awarded the bet by the referee, editor of The Field sports magazine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_L ... xperiments

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h_p
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by h_p »

You could have your friends follow Eratosthenes' experiment from 240 BC when it was first proven. But I suspect they still won't believe it.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... rth-is-ro/

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

By placing the sun much closer to the earth, flat earthers have too easy an "out" to be bothered by Eratosthenes' experiment, at least with fuzzy numbers and a low level of rigor.

Regarding curvature calculator:
https://www.metabunk.org/curve/
It doesn't "show it's work" but this calculator was put out by Mick West, who runs the site "metabunk" and has spent a fair amount of effort debunking flat earth claims. If you follow the link called "discussion thread" you can see some discussion about it including some math.

But as I recall, it fudges by assuming a perfect sphere and ignores other complicating factors by assuming the horizon is at sea level (not taking into account terrain, merely the height of the observer and the distance to a sea-level horizon. This is quite suitable most of the time since the water is involved in most curvature arguments.

It also fudges by including a "typical" refraction; but without live data it couldn't possibly do better than that.

But sadly, one thing I have concluded after having seen both sides argue over "what should we see", is that air over water cannot be trusted 100%, because SOMETIMES, not always, it will bend more powerfully.

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h_p
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by h_p »

braingrunt wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:53 am By placing the sun much closer to the earth, flat earthers have too easy an "out" to be bothered by Eratosthenes' experiment, at least with fuzzy numbers and a low level of rigor.
To my point. :-)

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

ps, here is one guy measuring curvature, you could peer review his methodology. In the end he decided he needed to get up off of the water some distance in order to diminish mirages which occurred in his first attempt:

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Robin Hood
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Robin Hood »

BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am I have two friends now who are asking - what scientific proof do we have that the earth is spherical and not a flat disk?

Note that they reject all NASA/government photos. Gotta find another "proof."

Should be easy right? OK, so what is the easiest experiment that can be done, to prove curvature?
Note that there are various flat-earth models, trying to explain seasons, day and night, etc. - but what they have in common is this:
PREMISE: Flatness, i.e., NO curvature over large bodies of water.

So the first experiment that comes to mind is to test viewing over water, using a surveyor's scope to assure that the scope remains level - as, for example, a ship sails away from the viewer. But I need an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected, and the image below is what I've found.... The equation seems reasonable, but has no derivation or reference - not good.

SO - can anyone help with an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected? including a source/reference.

We should be able to do an experiment to show earth's curvature and not just take the "consensus view" - right?
The fact is, Bro. Jones, the earth's curvature cannot be seen when standing on the earth.
I have conducted my own simple experiments and can confirm that no curvature can be detected, even though it should be. Therefore it is true to say that the earth is optically flat.
This does not prove the earth is actually flat; but for me at least it demonstrates that we know less than we think we know about what we believe we know to be true.
Last edited by Robin Hood on May 30th, 2017, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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inho
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by inho »

When you look at objects close to horizon, the atmospheric refraction has an important role.

In my opinion, best proof comes from astronomical observations. For example, the crescent moon is seen from different angles from different parts of the globe.

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gclayjr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by gclayjr »

BroJones,

I am a bit confused. This is not obscure stuff. I'm sure that without too much effort anybody could find a dozen sites like
That details this calculation.
D = 112.88 km √ (h)

If you are standing atop a mountain 1 km high, h = 1 km and your horizon should be 112.88 km away (we neglect the refraction of light in the atmosphere, which may modify this value). From the top of Mauna Kea on Hawaii, an extinct volcano about 4 km high (also the site of important astronomical observatories), the horizon should be about twice as distant, 226 km. On the other hand, standing on the beach with your eyes 2 meters = 0.002 km above the water, since SQRT(0.002) = 0.04472, the horizon is only 5 km distant.[/quote
I'm sure if you want feet and inches, you can do the conversion, and if you want another side of the triangle, you can calculate that also.


However, if you have been following this topic, there is nothing than can persuaded those who don't want to be persuaded. I am reminded of a place in Salt Lake City called Gravity Hill. You park on that hill, and your car rolls uphill. I'm sure that after observing that, so many would never believe that things can't roll up hill, no matter what evidence you brought to the table.

I do wish you luck. Maybe your gravitas will actually break through. I wouldn't bet the family farm on it, however.

Regards,

George Clay

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Silver Pie
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Silver Pie »

gclayjr wrote: May 30th, 2017, 1:57 pm BroJones,

I am a bit confused. This is not obscure stuff. I'm sure that without too much effort anybody could find a dozen sites like
The problem is that they reject anything that comes from the government/NASA.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Silver Pie »

It seems like most people are looking for the curvature by looking straight ahead of us. What about the curvature from us to our right and to our left? Not so obvious from the ground, like RH says, I'm sure - but what about high in the air? Could there be photos that show a curvature spreading from right to left? (It would be slight, I expect, unless one is in orbit, but wouldn't it be possible?)

There is a video in another flat earth/round earth thread that points out the curvature in this way, using a video created by flat-earthers.

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h_p
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by h_p »

Silver Pie wrote: May 30th, 2017, 5:22 pm The problem is that they reject anything that comes from the government/NASA.
I've never really talked with a Flat-Earther, but if I were a bettin' man, I'd be guessing they reject anything that disagrees with their beliefs. I suppose there's lots of people around who'd say the same thing about me for believing in a gold Bible and angels who can teleport into someone's room, so there's that. :-)

Anyways, this thread is a good excuse to post this awesome video I found from people who believe the Earth is round, since they were flying around it (or at least that's what they claim...):

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Silver Pie
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Silver Pie »

That was cool. B-)

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

h_p wrote: May 30th, 2017, 7:42 pm
Silver Pie wrote: May 30th, 2017, 5:22 pm The problem is that they reject anything that comes from the government/NASA.
I've never really talked with a Flat-Earther, but if I were a bettin' man, I'd be guessing they reject anything that disagrees with their beliefs. I suppose there's lots of people around who'd say the same thing about me for believing in a gold Bible and angels who can teleport into someone's room, so there's that. :-)

Anyways, this thread is a good excuse to post this awesome video I found from people who believe the Earth is round, since they were flying around it (or at least that's what they claim...):
Super easy to make that same video in software like Blender, other thread shows that plainly.

Now just take that video, push a camera on a cheap small rocket out 1,000 more miles and show the same earth in full rotation for 24 hours of raw video. Doesn't exist. $19 billion budget. We get plenty of CGI photos wrapped around a wire mesh globe, admitted that they are indeed CGI by NASA. What is so hard to put a video camera on a rocket that goes out far enough to show the earth in raw rotation. Never has been attempted or done. Why?

On a gospel note, Satan deceives the entire world.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

...
Last edited by Kitkat on May 30th, 2017, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

...
Last edited by Kitkat on May 30th, 2017, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

It appears from all our research the atmosphere, if removed would clearly show a flat earth. If there is a dome, and there is water above it, refraction would be able to explain why it appears the sun goes down, when in reality (remove the atmosphere) it isn't ever going down, it's just simple water refraction giving us the illusion it is going down.
Dr. Jones, these guys do a pretty good job, an invite to watch some of their videos and experiments, they also want you to contact them to help correct anything they may be missing.

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h_p
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by h_p »

Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 8:31 pm What is so hard to put a video camera on a rocket that goes out far enough to show the earth in raw rotation. Never has been attempted or done. Why?
(-|

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BroJones
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by BroJones »

Interesting - so even with a large body of water for our test, we may have "refraction issues" that could complicate the experiment...
An amateur rocket going up and taking video, to show the earth's curvature may be decisive.
That's what we are looking for here - an "crucial experiment" that will definitively get at the truth of whether the earth has curvature ("sphere-like") or not ("flat earth like").

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

h_p wrote: May 30th, 2017, 9:26 pm
Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 8:31 pm What is so hard to put a video camera on a rocket that goes out far enough to show the earth in raw rotation. Never has been attempted or done. Why?
(-|
Let us match your robust reply with this video...
Seriously, what are you doing to help the conversation with such amazing replies? :-w O:-) 8-| You just want to be patted on the back for being the first to show that you are smarter than...? because such questions cause you to fall asleep? It is getting more clear just how surely the lines are being drawn, esp. with God's chosen people.

Please don't clutter this sincere thread with your need to burn your candle brighter, and let those like Dr. Jones and those who really want to know actually discuss, as He is one who actually practices what he preaches in the love and charity the gospel restored invites us to plead for.

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 9:07 pm It appears from all our research the atmosphere, if removed would clearly show a flat earth. If there is a dome, and there is water above it, refraction would be able to explain why it appears the sun goes down, when in reality (remove the atmosphere) it isn't ever going down, it's just simple water refraction giving us the illusion it is going down.
Dr. Jones, these guys do a pretty good job, an invite to watch some of their videos and experiments, they also want you to contact them to help correct anything they may be missing.
On the flat earth forums I have already heard refraction used as an explanation. And while it is refreshing to see a flat earther who knows they have a problem with the sun moon and stars which perspective does NOT solve, their refraction scheme is full of problems, which maybe someday I'll be able to make a video about. For now though, I feel like I need to focus on debunking their typical "celestial perspective" explanation, which has high acceptance among flat earthers, but is pure circus.

I want to know if their computer simulation is available for study because if they've solved all my objections, WOWOWOWOW! I predict they haven't though :)

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Robin Hood
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Robin Hood »

h_p wrote: May 30th, 2017, 7:42 pm
Silver Pie wrote: May 30th, 2017, 5:22 pm The problem is that they reject anything that comes from the government/NASA.
I've never really talked with a Flat-Earther, but if I were a bettin' man, I'd be guessing they reject anything that disagrees with their beliefs. I suppose there's lots of people around who'd say the same thing about me for believing in a gold Bible and angels who can teleport into someone's room, so there's that. :-)

Anyways, this thread is a good excuse to post this awesome video I found from people who believe the Earth is round, since they were flying around it (or at least that's what they claim...):

CGI.
This clearly adds nothing to the debate.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am I have two friends now who are asking - what scientific proof do we have that the earth is spherical and not a flat disk?

Note that they reject all NASA/government photos. Gotta find another "proof."

Should be easy right? OK, so what is the easiest experiment that can be done, to prove curvature?
Note that there are various flat-earth models, trying to explain seasons, day and night, etc. - but what they have in common is this:
PREMISE: Flatness, i.e., NO curvature over large bodies of water.

So the first experiment that comes to mind is to test viewing over water, using a surveyor's scope to assure that the scope remains level - as, for example, a ship sails away from the viewer. But I need an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected, and the image below is what I've found.... The equation seems reasonable, but has no derivation or reference - not good.

SO - can anyone help with an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected? including a source/reference.

We should be able to do an experiment to show earth's curvature and not just take the "consensus view" - right?
The simple thing is as a ship sales away it disappears by the hull first then then the mast - conclusive proof of curvature. Often eh mast is visible for a long time.

One can take a photo of the curvature of the earth for $50

Teenager floats £30 camera into space to capture curvature of Earth
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science ... Earth.html

Note the Russians were the first into space and since then the EU, Japan and China etc... you can also take a zero gravity flight that will prove the earth is curved. There are many companies that offer such services.

People who believe the earth is flat suffer from extreme delusions and it is not worth your time to explain. Take any flat map of the earth and explain how it is possible to swim from Alaska to Russia where on a flat earth map you have to cross the entire world to gee to the other end.

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 9:31 pm Interesting - so even with a large body of water for our test, we may have "refraction issues" that could complicate the experiment...
An amateur rocket going up and taking video, to show the earth's curvature may be decisive.
That's what we are looking for here - an "crucial experiment" that will definitively get at the truth of whether the earth has curvature ("sphere-like") or not ("flat earth like").
We already have such a launch which certain flat earthers accept as authentic: (they accept the authenticity because its de-spin maneuver makes them think it hit the "water below the firmament")
This footage survives attempts to debunk it via "gopro distortion" because the curvature exists beyond the center-point and when you apply gopro correction filters, the curvature only get's more dramatic.

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h_p
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by h_p »

Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 9:36 pm Seriously, what are you doing to help the conversation with such amazing replies? :-w O:-) 8-| You just want to be patted on the back for being the first to show that you are smarter than...? because such questions cause you to fall asleep? It is getting more clear just how surely the lines are being drawn, esp. with God's chosen people.

Please don't clutter this sincere thread with your need to burn your candle brighter, and let those like Dr. Jones and those who really want to know actually discuss, as He is one who actually practices what he preaches in the love and charity the gospel restored invites us to plead for.
You're clearly more passionate about this non-issue than I am. Have fun on your crusade.

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