Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

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nvr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by nvr »

Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 8:31 pm What is so hard to put a video camera on a rocket that goes out far enough to show the earth in raw rotation. Never has been attempted or done. Why?

On a gospel note, Satan deceives the entire world.
To shoot a rocket straight up and remain 'static' while the earth turns below would require constant thrust by the rocket to avoid being drawn back to earth via gravity. This is why satellites and space stations orbit earth - they only need to use enough fuel to get to a speed at the balancing point between leaving orbit (too fast) and being pulled in by earth's gravity (too slow). Eventually, all satellites will slow down enough to renter the atmosphere.

There are numerous companies and vast numbers of employees in the private world who make their living putting satellites into orbit. I'm curious how flat-earthers explain GPS and other communication satellites?

Irrelevant
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Irrelevant »

Right. A consensus would greatly help that cause. I feel like it should be high on the list of priorities.

By the flat Earth maps it seems like airlines could save lots of money by flying straight over the land rather than around the land, over water. Flying to Korea wouldn't be such a pain in the neck...

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Irrelevant wrote: May 31st, 2017, 7:28 pm Right. A consensus would greatly help that cause. I feel like it should be high on the list of priorities.

By the flat Earth maps it seems like airlines could save lots of money by flying straight over the land rather than around the land, over water. Flying to Korea wouldn't be such a pain in the neck...
It is not flying over land that is the problem but the bulge of the earth. I fly between South Africa and Sydney Australia. The flight path is down to the top of the Antarctic and the curved back to Australia, as a direct route is more distance to travel due to the bulge in the earth. The airline planners and navigators are really dumb and have not figured out the earth is flat and waste lots of fuel and money.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am I have two friends now who are asking - what scientific proof do we have that the earth is spherical and not a flat disk?

Note that they reject all NASA/government photos. Gotta find another "proof."

Should be easy right? OK, so what is the easiest experiment that can be done, to prove curvature?
Note that there are various flat-earth models, trying to explain seasons, day and night, etc. - but what they have in common is this:
PREMISE: Flatness, i.e., NO curvature over large bodies of water.

So the first experiment that comes to mind is to test viewing over water, using a surveyor's scope to assure that the scope remains level - as, for example, a ship sails away from the viewer. But I need an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected, and the image below is what I've found.... The equation seems reasonable, but has no derivation or reference - not good.

SO - can anyone help with an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected? including a source/reference.

We should be able to do an experiment to show earth's curvature and not just take the "consensus view" - right?
An experiment I previously proposed in another thread was to look over the ocean at a boat that is moving away from you, as you notice the hull disappears and the mast, you can go up a tall building or the 'lighthouse' and the boat will again be visible this is due to being at higher elevation and getting further visual over the curvature, there is no other way to explain the phenomenon with a flat earth. The horizon line we see when looking over the ocean or large body of water is due to the curvature of the earth.

A good read for the flat earthers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

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inho
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by inho »

Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 2:45 am An experiment I previously proposed in another thread was to look over the ocean at a boat that is moving away from you, as you notice the hull disappears and the mast, you can go up a tall building or the 'lighthouse' and the boat will again be visible this is due to being at higher elevation and getting further visual over the curvature, there is no other way to explain the phenomenon with a flat earth. The horizon line we see when looking over the ocean or large body of water is due to the curvature of the earth.
I have tried that. However, the visibility wasn't the best and I didn't have binoculars, so it was quite hard to see clearly enough what happens in the horizon. I wonder if it would be easier, if one was aboard a ship approaching a large mountain on a shore. First one would see the top of the mountain, then more of it and finally the buildings and people at the base of the mountain.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

nvr wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:55 pm
Kitkat wrote: May 30th, 2017, 8:31 pm What is so hard to put a video camera on a rocket that goes out far enough to show the earth in raw rotation. Never has been attempted or done. Why?

On a gospel note, Satan deceives the entire world.
To shoot a rocket straight up and remain 'static' while the earth turns below would require constant thrust by the rocket to avoid being drawn back to earth via gravity. This is why satellites and space stations orbit earth - they only need to use enough fuel to get to a speed at the balancing point between leaving orbit (too fast) and being pulled in by earth's gravity (too slow). Eventually, all satellites will slow down enough to renter the atmosphere.

There are numerous companies and vast numbers of employees in the private world who make their living putting satellites into orbit. I'm curious how flat-earthers explain GPS and other communication satellites?
Thank you. My first simple thought is if there is a dome, bouncing communications off of it would be quite simple wouldn't it not? I do believe low earth orbit is no lie, that is how we get NASA CGI images of the earth, all pasted together from low earth orbit over the quite likely stationery, on it's four corner foundations, flat earth covered by a dome rotating around it (see atmosphere comment to Dr Jones in this same thread), above which is pure water or salt water (see other thread for many videos showing science making mini glowing stars in pure salt water).

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

Spaced_Out wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:12 am
BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am...
...People who believe the earth is flat suffer from extreme delusions and it is not worth your time to explain...
You are so right, just like those who believe polygamy is OK with a moral unchanging God, golden plates translated through a dark hat and a stone, Joseph spoke with God and had an angel Moroni visit him in his room, which angel is now idolized as a golden statue atop temples, in which temples people are sealed to the dead, and popcorn popping on an apricot tree :p - purely delusional.

Look up ad hominem fallacy. This dismissive D&C 121:37 attitude is getting really old... really... Latter Day Saints are better than this, but also points to one's gospel maturity or lack thereof. Moving on... ;) :ymhug:

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Kitkat wrote: June 1st, 2017, 5:29 am
Spaced_Out wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:12 am
BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am...
...People who believe the earth is flat suffer from extreme delusions and it is not worth your time to explain...
You are so right, just like those who believe polygamy is OK with a moral unchanging God, golden plates translated through a dark hat and a stone, Joseph spoke with God and had an angel Moroni visit him in his room, which angel is now idolized as a golden statue atop temples, in which temples people are sealed to the dead, and popcorn popping on an apricot tree :p - purely delusional.

Look up ad hominem fallacy. This dismissive D&C 121:37 attitude is getting really old... really... Latter Day Saints are better than this, but also points to one's gospel maturity or lack thereof. Moving on... ;) :ymhug:
Flat earthers are total delusions and live in denial, it i to see the sun shining and deny it, it is like believing you are living in a matrix.

Denial of Russian, NAsa, Japan, China, EU space programs
Denial of GPS and global orbiting systems which use a global spheroid as a mathematical model for all calculations.
Denial of all modern air transportation and flight paths
Denial of gravity as lunar ocean currents, and gravitational effects between the sun moon an earth
Denial of earths magnetism crated by the rotating inner core
Denial that every planet in the solar system is a round globe
Denial of every resisted surveyor in the world that do their calculations based on the current global model
Denial of the map of the earth as there is no flat earth map that relates to reality of distance
Denial of the many witnesses of those that have been to space
Denial of the photographs taken of the curvature of the earth using weather balloons
Denial of star visibility ie in the southern hemisphere we see the southern cross and in the north the Polaris star
Denial of Coriolis effect that is easily seen at the equator where 5m north or south of the equator line the rotation is different
Denial of the earth weather systems like the trade winds the early mariner used which can only be understood using a globe
Denial the the earth can be circumnavigated
Denial of millions of basic experiments that prove the earth is round
Denial of the antarctic and being able to walk in any direction and get to the north pole, http://debunkingflatearth.blogspot.com. ... roves.html
Denial that all military artillery and rocket systems use a global earth for calculations
Denial of the vary many visions people have seen of the earth and happenings on the earth where they all see a round earth
...... if I had more tine I could probably add another 100 thing sot the list.


I work a lot with land survey and measurements of distance without using a curved earth it is impossible to get accurate answers. Just in the US alone there are over 900,000 licensed surveyors that do this for a living - you are saying all their calculations are incorrect as they all use adjustments for curvature, you are also saying every resisted surveyor in every country in the world are also in the conspiracy - one wonders how they manged to get roads and bridges working. To deny the earth is flat is to deny the testimony of billions of professionals.

It is not a faith based thing but reality that can be and is proven.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

Exactly what you said. Maybe in haste and passionate reply?
Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:16 am To deny the earth is flat is to deny the testimony of billions of professionals.
You nailed it finally! Thank you! #:-s :p :ymblushing: /:) So much more hopeful than ad hominem fallacy.
Last edited by Kitkat on June 1st, 2017, 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

BroJones wrote: May 30th, 2017, 11:21 am I have two friends now who are asking - what scientific proof do we have that the earth is spherical and not a flat disk?

Note that they reject all NASA/government photos. Gotta find another "proof."

Should be easy right? OK, so what is the easiest experiment that can be done, to prove curvature?
Note that there are various flat-earth models, trying to explain seasons, day and night, etc. - but what they have in common is this:
PREMISE: Flatness, i.e., NO curvature over large bodies of water.

So the first experiment that comes to mind is to test viewing over water, using a surveyor's scope to assure that the scope remains level - as, for example, a ship sails away from the viewer. But I need an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected, and the image below is what I've found.... The equation seems reasonable, but has no derivation or reference - not good.

SO - can anyone help with an accurate equation for how much of a drop-due-to-curvature is expected? including a source/reference.

We should be able to do an experiment to show earth's curvature and not just take the "consensus view" - right?
inho wrote: June 1st, 2017, 2:56 am
Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 2:45 am An experiment I previously proposed in another thread was to look over the ocean at a boat that is moving away from you, as you notice the hull disappears and the mast, you can go up a tall building or the 'lighthouse' and the boat will again be visible this is due to being at higher elevation and getting further visual over the curvature, there is no other way to explain the phenomenon with a flat earth. The horizon line we see when looking over the ocean or large body of water is due to the curvature of the earth.
I have tried that. However, the visibility wasn't the best and I didn't have binoculars, so it was quite hard to see clearly enough what happens in the horizon. I wonder if it would be easier, if one was aboard a ship approaching a large mountain on a shore. First one would see the top of the mountain, then more of it and finally the buildings and people at the base of the mountain.
One can do the same experiment using a star in the sky. Take a visual of a star low in the sky to the north then drive along a road that leads due south till the star is not visible - the go to the point where it is just visible and one can easily calculate the curvature of the earth. That is how it was done by the early Greeks etc...

Spaced_Out
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Kitkat wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:20 am Exactly what you said. Maybe in haste and passionate reply?
Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:16 am To deny the earth is flat is to deny the testimony of billions of professionals.
You nailed it finally! Thank you! #:-s :p :ymblushing: /:) So much more hopeful than ad hominem fallacy.
So if a million registered land surveyor int he US agree that the distance between two towns using a global spherical model for their calculations is xxx miles, you will not believe it because the professionals are always wrong and you with greater knowledge and insight are right.
One wonders how GPS driver-less cars work as the software they use make use of a spherical model for the earth...

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inho
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by inho »

Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:20 am One can do the same experiment using a star in the sky. Take a visual of a star low in the sky to the north then drive along a road that leads due south till the star is not visible - the go to the point where it is just visible and one can easily calculate the curvature of the earth. That is how it was done by the early Greeks etc...
This goes with what I wrote earlier in this thread. I believe that the best proof comes from astronomical observations. However, looking at things close to the horizon is always hard. There is the issue of atmospherical refraction plus one needs to no if there are any far away hills of other objects which might cover the star. The method you describe is basically the same as what Posidonius used to determine the size of the Earth. Due to the atmospheric refraction, his measurement wasn't as accurate as Eratosthenes' result.

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:27 am
Kitkat wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:20 am Exactly what you said. Maybe in haste and passionate reply?
Spaced_Out wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:16 am To deny the earth is flat is to deny the testimony of billions of professionals.
You nailed it finally! Thank you! #:-s :p :ymblushing: /:) So much more hopeful than ad hominem fallacy.
So if a million registered land surveyor int he US agree that the distance between two towns using a global spherical model for their calculations is xxx miles, you will not believe it because the professionals are always wrong and you with greater knowledge and insight are right.
One wonders how GPS driver-less cars work as the software they use make use of a spherical model for the earth...
Would love to have a million professionals show their use of a curvature model in their calculations for sure. Please educate us. I love that Dr. Jones started this thread, as he is one of many thousands of professionals that went against the accepted science and traditions to show that after all, 9-11 and the collapse of those towers were not as we were told. Thousands of professionals had to show that one. Happy to see the same for curvature...

So far however, I'm only finding Land Surveyor professionals telling us there is NO CURVATURE in their measurements and work...

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015 ... earth.html

Code: Select all

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/05/architects-engineers-for-flat-earth.html
Looks like we have another topic to discuss...

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

It is interesting that the Globe Earth Model with the Sun Setting and the appearance of the sun setting later is actually opposite and wrong when we apply a real world atmosphere to the same model..

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

Kitkat wrote: June 1st, 2017, 6:54 am It is interesting that the Globe Earth Model with the Sun Setting and the appearance of the sun setting later is actually opposite and wrong when we apply a real world atmosphere to the same model..
...
The author of the video wants to pretend the argument, if we have one, is with Cinema4D and it's authors. However, this is pretty weak sauce. IF they want to make that case they need to make their simulation public so we can study it and see if it's really above criticism. This is what I did with my blender simulation. As far as I know they haven't done this.
When lenses are added to a simulation, people typically pick the parameters and Cinema4D cant be blamed if it was told to refract negative instead of positive, or was not fed realistic density layers or whatever.

Also I want to point out that if his atmosphere refracts like he claims it does, it laughably debunks ALL of their laser experiments and the idea that the earth is optically flat from high altitude. And optical flatness + no feeling of motion are the gateway drugs to the flat earth idea. Here we have an instance where, yes, those things hooked you but advanced flat-earth theories are not compatible with it. Your original reason becomes invalid but you don't drop your original conclusion, which is kinda weird.

That said, they are tackling the right problem. A spatially intelligent person can immediately see that there is a problem with sun/moon/stars on the flat earth. And unless solved flat earth is HECK NO!!!!! I acknowledged this in my flat earth sun moon stars video and invited someone to put in the lensing system which "Dr Zack" has done. Now make it public like I said and we might be somewhere.

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gclayjr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by gclayjr »

braingrunt,
This is what I did with my blender simulation. As far as I know they haven't done this.
Are you talking about the 3d animation tool? I have been trying to use this to develop 3d objects for 3d printing, with limited success. I have no interest in animation, just 3d rendering. I have struggled with getting dimensions correct and getting objects properly merged.

Do you think I am using the right tool, and just need to persevere, or should I look else where?

Regards,

George Clay

Kitkat
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Kitkat »

gclayjr wrote: June 1st, 2017, 7:36 pm braingrunt,
This is what I did with my blender simulation. As far as I know they haven't done this.
Are you talking about the 3d animation tool? I have been trying to use this to develop 3d objects for 3d printing, with limited success. I have no interest in animation, just 3d rendering. I have struggled with getting dimensions correct and getting objects properly merged.

Do you think I am using the right tool, and just need to persevere, or should I look else where?

Regards,

George Clay
A simpler start at 3D for anyone interested in getting into 3D. We started with this and then moved to Blender once concepts were internalized and learned.
http://www.cheetah3d.com/

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Alaris
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Alaris »

Guys, guys ... if the earth were flat, Cats would have knocked everything off by now.

braingrunt
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by braingrunt »

gclayjr wrote: June 1st, 2017, 7:36 pm braingrunt,
This is what I did with my blender simulation. As far as I know they haven't done this.
Are you talking about the 3d animation tool? I have been trying to use this to develop 3d objects for 3d printing, with limited success. I have no interest in animation, just 3d rendering. I have struggled with getting dimensions correct and getting objects properly merged.

Do you think I am using the right tool, and just need to persevere, or should I look else where?

Regards,

George Clay
yes, blender the modeling software. I don't know if it's the right tool for 3d printing or cad modeling. It, by default at least, does not have human units like miles feet inches. It has blender units which you arbitrarily interpret how you want. And while it's measuring and snapping abilities are better than I first thought, they are not front-and-center features, like with systems which are seriously trying to be cad.
But I know of some people who have used it as a cad system, and generally know that they thought it was doable but less convenient. This was several years ago now, though.
I use blender only as a hobby, so I can't speak with the experience of a professional

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gclayjr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by gclayjr »

Kitkat, braingrunt

Thanks for the input. I don't have Apple. I only have Microsoft and Linix (Ubuntu). I have been able to build and print a few things using inkscape and blender, but I haven't been able to get the control over the dimensions I want. The reason I took that approach, was that I was extracting a 2d image into a 3d image. I was making a modified Pontiac Fiero Logo from a picture of a Pontiac Fiero logo.

I am now building a special pop-up headlight motor controller for a Pontiac Fiero, using an Arduino controller, and an accelerometer/gyroscope. I will want to build enclosures for both on my 3d printer. I won't be starting from a 2d picture, so maybe a traditional CAD program will work better. However, this is new territory for me.

Regards,

George Clay

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Silver Pie
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Silver Pie »

alaris wrote: June 2nd, 2017, 7:34 pm Guys, guys ... if the earth were flat, Cats would have knocked everything off by now.
:)) =))
Written by a person who obviously knows cats.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by Silver Pie »

Irrelevant wrote: May 31st, 2017, 8:02 am Is there a consensus among flat earthers on what the Earth actually looks like? I have found many variations so now I'm curious as to which is the approved model.
That's what I was wondering.
Is the earth shaped like a nickel or a quarter?
Or is it like a round loaf of bread, rounded in the middle and going down at the edges?
Does everyone on the planet live on only one side of it?
If so, why doesn't anyone live on the reverse side?
And if everyone lives on only the obverse, why can we travel from Alaska to Russia so quickly (shouldn't Alaska be on one edge and Russia on the edge opposite/farthest away)?
And why can one travel around the world going east or west and end up in the same place where they started?
Why can people in the Pacific travel east to the Americas and west to the "eastern countries"?
And why can people in Japan go to the United States by going east or west?
And how can planes fly over the north or south poles and end up in the opposite hemisphere from where they started?
And, does the earth sit in space or is outer space a fraud, too?
If outer space does not exist, upon what does the earth sit? Hercules shoulders (figuratively or not)?
If it sits in outer space, does it stay still? Twirl? Revolve? Rotate?
Did God just take some change out of his pocket and throw it out into the void and the money became what we think are planets and stars?

Maybe a flat earth isn't round at all. Maybe it's a rectangle. Or a triangle. Or a hexagon or an octagon or a random jumbled mess at the edges. Or is it a rectangle box? Or a square box? Or shaped like a hat box? Maybe we live in the center and don't know it.

Maybe the edges of the universe is where the bottom of the earth is. Maybe there is no universe. Maybe we are in a box and the stars are just holes in the box because God felt sorry for us and wanted to let in a little light. Maybe the daytime is when he peels back a corner of the box and lets the light shine in a little more. Maybe a teensy tiny (to him) lamp/light bulb. Maybe every theory we have is crazy and this is the right one. :-?

Edit: This is not a snarky/sarcastic post. I am serious, even though I don't believe we live in a box.
Last edited by Silver Pie on June 5th, 2017, 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

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gclayjr wrote: June 1st, 2017, 7:36 pm braingrunt,
This is what I did with my blender simulation. As far as I know they haven't done this.
Are you talking about the 3d animation tool? I have been trying to use this to develop 3d objects for 3d printing, with limited success. I have no interest in animation, just 3d rendering. I have struggled with getting dimensions correct and getting objects properly merged.

Do you think I am using the right tool, and just need to persevere, or should I look else where?

Regards,

George Clay
Here's something you can try for free http://www.punchcad.com/trial.aspx Image

They hooked me for viacad2D/3D version 10, which works great on a mac. :ymparty:

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BroJones
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by BroJones »

I wish to say a little more about the observations of earth's curvature by viewing distant objects across water. This is a good method, as I think even flat-earthers will agree.

Here's the problem - they use this over-simplified equation a lot in videos, and it is NOT accurate:

They like to use:
Drop over water horizon ("hidden height") due to earth-curvature = 8 inches X miles-squared.

But this ONLY works if your eyes are at ZERO height above the water! Try to put your eyes or telescope at ZERO inches above the water, and look out at a distant object - can you really do it?

Again, I found and tested this earth-curvature calculator, which even SOME "flat-earthers" use And they all should use -- based on straightforward trigonometry: https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-ca ... t=imperial[/B]

Below are two cases - both with the target object at 3 miles away.

We see that with the eyes at ZERO height above the water, then the drop is indeed
8 inches X (3 miles)^2 = (8 x 9) inches = 72 inches = 6.0 feet

However, if the observer is sitting on a chair in the water, his eye-height will be about 4 feet above the water (take out a measuring tape, sit in a chair - floor to your eyes, I get about 4 feet) --

THEN apply the full equations (link to https://github.com/dizzib/earthcalc for full equations - which I have checked) and we get that the hidden height is NOT 6 feet, but only 0.2 feet, which is a mere 2.4 inches!!


Wow - from 2.4 inches hidden, to 6 FEET hidden - just by moving the eyes 4 feet!

DO NOT trust anyone using the oversimplified 8" times miles-squared formula!!!

SO - by NOT telling us the height of the observer's eyes/telescope above the water, ball-earthers OR flat-earthers may very well OBSCURE THE TRUTH!! Be very cautious - insist on knowing the height of the observer's eyes/telescope above the water - or throw the experiment OUT!!
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4 foot eye height, drop only 2.4 inches.jpg
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gclayjr
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Re: Can we do an experiment - is the earth flat?

Post by gclayjr »

BroJones,
I wish to say a little more about the observations of earth's curvature by viewing distant objects across water. This is a good method, as I think even flat-earthers will agree.

...
Again, I found and tested this earth-curvature calculator, which even SOME "flat-earthers" use And they all should use -- based on straightforward trigonometry:
So is the Earth Flat?

If Flat Earthers agree with this calculation, what does it demonstrate?

How do Flat Earthers explain it?

Regards,

George Clay

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