I do not like how much social ideas are pushed in formal education. Which is why I withdrew after 3 quarters, and then decided to transfer to BYU correspondence classes after I pay off what I owe in student loans. And then I will switch to a cash only based education.
I think that a formal education is nothing more then a piece of paper that states I know this stuff, so hire me.
I wish that there was just some test that you could take and get a degree in life, because I think that we gain much more education that way.
I think on the job training would be more beneficial, but then we might actually be skilled people,and I am not sure if that is a "popular" desire. LOL
I love to learn. I study all I can.. especially the things that my PB tells me to. I think that getting an education involves more then just going to college.
Formal Education
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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6047
- Location: Driven
Between the two of us one of us went to BYU for the full Bachelors (after Dixie State) and it was mostly crap. The other went to Utah State for two years and then bailed out and went from there to a technical school which was 90% hands on. That was after lots of other technical schools of various sorts, both hands on and classroom based.
Our consensus is that college and university is a scam. It is an investment scam, a pay me a hundred dollars and I'll tell you how to make a quick two hundred dollars type scam. I use the word "scam" but many do actually get the two hundred dollars.
For us the price of the two hundred dollars (as is often the case) was deceptively high.
Whereas the technical hands on schooling was straight forward and quite valuable. The old apprenticeship model works!
Now obviously there are many things that require some intellectual time outside of the field like nuclear disaster response for an extreme example, firefighting, electrician etc... But 90% can still be learned in the field if but in training exercises.
The modern college and university racket is huey that should cease to be pushed on our youth.
True the prophets preach education very strongly and there are many reasons for this. One of which is to compete with the illegal immigrant. Two is to actually learn true principle (which is best done outside of our modern educational facilities). And three is likely something along the lines of playing the game in order to not draw the ire of a horribly corrupt world.
Our consensus is that college and university is a scam. It is an investment scam, a pay me a hundred dollars and I'll tell you how to make a quick two hundred dollars type scam. I use the word "scam" but many do actually get the two hundred dollars.
For us the price of the two hundred dollars (as is often the case) was deceptively high.
Whereas the technical hands on schooling was straight forward and quite valuable. The old apprenticeship model works!
Now obviously there are many things that require some intellectual time outside of the field like nuclear disaster response for an extreme example, firefighting, electrician etc... But 90% can still be learned in the field if but in training exercises.
The modern college and university racket is huey that should cease to be pushed on our youth.
True the prophets preach education very strongly and there are many reasons for this. One of which is to compete with the illegal immigrant. Two is to actually learn true principle (which is best done outside of our modern educational facilities). And three is likely something along the lines of playing the game in order to not draw the ire of a horribly corrupt world.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
The value of a university/college education depends to a great extent on what the student studies, as well as the graduate's ability to apply his/her education to the real world. We probably all know of people with bachelors, masters and PhD (piled higher and deeper) degrees who have achieved little or no success in any occupation. On the other extreme, some people with little formal education accomplish great things with their natural abilities and ambition. Examples abound on both ends of the spectrum. But I think for most people, like those in the middle section of the success bell curve, wise choice of courses and a program can greatly enhance a persons chances for success and enjoyment in a career and in life in general.
A few areas where academic study proves especially valuable to the student and humanity in general per my observation and experience are the sciences (medical doctors, scientists, engineers), business management/administration, law, agriculture, and animal husbandry, among others.
But I'll be the first one to acknowledge that there is a lot of mis- and disinformation presented in certain classes, even at the best of universities.
A few areas where academic study proves especially valuable to the student and humanity in general per my observation and experience are the sciences (medical doctors, scientists, engineers), business management/administration, law, agriculture, and animal husbandry, among others.
But I'll be the first one to acknowledge that there is a lot of mis- and disinformation presented in certain classes, even at the best of universities.
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
I have a hard time with this. I am all for education. I dislike schooling. It took me a while to really figure out the difference.
My patriarchal blessing really stresses education, but I never felt inspired to go to college. I can learn anything I want to from a book or the internet for free, or nearly so. I retain what I learn because I don't pursue topics which are irrelevant in my life. That's the natural way to learn isn't it? We find a hole in our life, something we want to know how to do, and we find out about it. We should never stop doing that.
I think sometimes people view education as filling a pitcher with water. Bachelor's degree is mostly full, masters is pretty well brimming. I've known people with both who've failed to get an education. My pitcher cannot possibly ever be filled. I will be learning forever, and that's what makes life exciting isn't it?
Right now I'm trying to get familiar with watercolor, a medium which has always frustrated me. I'm also learning to can. I'm always learning new cooking methods and recipes. I'm learning how to garden. I learn things that matter in my life, or that interest me. I don't bother with learning how to launch a space shuttle or anything like that, because I don't anticipate needing to. However, if I did, I'm pretty sure I could get all the information from books, not a professor. Has the professor ever launched a shuttle? Aren't I better off going straight to the source anyhow?
My patriarchal blessing really stresses education, but I never felt inspired to go to college. I can learn anything I want to from a book or the internet for free, or nearly so. I retain what I learn because I don't pursue topics which are irrelevant in my life. That's the natural way to learn isn't it? We find a hole in our life, something we want to know how to do, and we find out about it. We should never stop doing that.
I think sometimes people view education as filling a pitcher with water. Bachelor's degree is mostly full, masters is pretty well brimming. I've known people with both who've failed to get an education. My pitcher cannot possibly ever be filled. I will be learning forever, and that's what makes life exciting isn't it?
Right now I'm trying to get familiar with watercolor, a medium which has always frustrated me. I'm also learning to can. I'm always learning new cooking methods and recipes. I'm learning how to garden. I learn things that matter in my life, or that interest me. I don't bother with learning how to launch a space shuttle or anything like that, because I don't anticipate needing to. However, if I did, I'm pretty sure I could get all the information from books, not a professor. Has the professor ever launched a shuttle? Aren't I better off going straight to the source anyhow?
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jbalm
- The Third Comforter
- Posts: 5348
Most college programs are a scam, I suppose. Maybe it would be better to think of a college degree as nothing more than a ticket that needs to be punched for many career options. However, I must admit that even though I don't work as an accountant, my bachelor's degree in that field has provided me with skills I use on a daily basis.
I feel sorry for those who spent so much time and money on liberal arts degrees, only to find out that said degree provided almost no increase in their employability.
A professor once told me: "They give you a bachelor's degree when you think you know everything. They give you a master's degree when you realize that you don't actually know everything. And they give you your doctorate when you figure out that you don't really know anything."
I feel sorry for those who spent so much time and money on liberal arts degrees, only to find out that said degree provided almost no increase in their employability.
A professor once told me: "They give you a bachelor's degree when you think you know everything. They give you a master's degree when you realize that you don't actually know everything. And they give you your doctorate when you figure out that you don't really know anything."
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
A couple of comments:
A bachelors degree demonstrates the ability to embark on a program and discipline ones self to complete it. Some hiring managers consider that important.
A bachelors degree demonstrates the ability to take on and successfully complete tasks (those required subjects outside of one's major) that may/probably do not interest the student. Such happens a lot in the work place. And some people can apply themselves well to uninteresting and unpleasant tasks, and others cannot.
There are other factors beyond the above that contribute to the employability, or worth/value of a job seeker to an employer: personality, compatibility with other employees, family status, foreign languages spoken, appearance, attitude toward any number of things seemingly irrelevant to the job, and so on.
In the case of 2 major job changes, I was invited to the interviews for jobs for which I did not meet all the written requirements simply because I had stated my hobby at the time on the applications, and both hiring managers had the same interests. One flew me across the country for the interview, and later told me my compatibility with others on his team made the difference.
Success or failure in a career is hard to predict. I've known people with advanced degrees who at could not support their families over long periods of time.
A bachelors degree demonstrates the ability to embark on a program and discipline ones self to complete it. Some hiring managers consider that important.
A bachelors degree demonstrates the ability to take on and successfully complete tasks (those required subjects outside of one's major) that may/probably do not interest the student. Such happens a lot in the work place. And some people can apply themselves well to uninteresting and unpleasant tasks, and others cannot.
There are other factors beyond the above that contribute to the employability, or worth/value of a job seeker to an employer: personality, compatibility with other employees, family status, foreign languages spoken, appearance, attitude toward any number of things seemingly irrelevant to the job, and so on.
In the case of 2 major job changes, I was invited to the interviews for jobs for which I did not meet all the written requirements simply because I had stated my hobby at the time on the applications, and both hiring managers had the same interests. One flew me across the country for the interview, and later told me my compatibility with others on his team made the difference.
Success or failure in a career is hard to predict. I've known people with advanced degrees who at could not support their families over long periods of time.
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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6047
- Location: Driven
From the Deseret News this morning (I had it open in another window while reading Lundbaek's response):
Read the whole thing, it is really good!!!
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 43,00.html
Read the whole thing, it is really good!!!
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 43,00.html
PROVO — Learning truth is best accomplished by using multiple senses — sight, hearing and inner feelings that come through inspiration — then recording what has been learned and acting on it.
...those who learn how to receive it will find increased success and happiness, and their ability to teach truth to others will grow.
...write down and begin practicing the following phrase: "Throughout the remainder of my life, I will seek to learn by what I hear, see and feel. I will write down the important things I learn, and I will do them."
Many of the most vital lessons he has learned in life, "I have learned by carefully following (that message)," Elder Scott said. "You learn by what you hear and see, but even more by what you feel as you are prompted by the Holy Ghost."
Those who limit their learning to what they hear and read are missing deeper insights and answers, while those who actively listen for spiritual promptings will find their capacity to find truth will expand. "But significant faith and effort is required."
Such guidance is "personalized instruction adapted to your individual needs by (the Lord), who understands them perfectly," he said. The price for personalized guidance is prayer, study and pondering the scriptures, seeking "divine light through humility" and an exercise of faith in Jesus Christ.
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Proud 2b Peculiar
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5560
- Location: American Fork, Utah
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Taking bundles of meaningless classes to prove one's ability to withstand tedium seems a horrible waste to me.
I admire a person's ability to set and accomplish goals. If you have your sights set on a career that requires a degree you shoulder the burden. However, I've seen enough of the twaddle and fluff to know that with few exceptions, a good 90%+ is a tragic waste of time and money. A sad necessity for many a career.
I'm trying to remember who it was - some really rich somebody - who directly attributed much of his success to deciding NOT to go to college.
I admire a person's ability to set and accomplish goals. If you have your sights set on a career that requires a degree you shoulder the burden. However, I've seen enough of the twaddle and fluff to know that with few exceptions, a good 90%+ is a tragic waste of time and money. A sad necessity for many a career.
I'm trying to remember who it was - some really rich somebody - who directly attributed much of his success to deciding NOT to go to college.
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ROB GIBBSEN
- captain of 100
- Posts: 699
Re:
I agree. I love to learn...just not always what other people say what is worth learning.LoveChrist wrote:I do not like how much social ideas are pushed in formal education. Which is why I withdrew after 3 quarters, and then decided to transfer to BYU correspondence classes after I pay off what I owe in student loans. And then I will switch to a cash only based education.
I think that a formal education is nothing more then a piece of paper that states I know this stuff, so hire me.
I wish that there was just some test that you could take and get a degree in life, because I think that we gain much more education that way.
I think on the job training would be more beneficial, but then we might actually be skilled people,and I am not sure if that is a "popular" desire. LOL
I love to learn. I study all I can.. especially the things that my PB tells me to. I think that getting an education involves more then just going to college.
I think it a personal choice how to go about it. I do agree however it you what a certain goal you sometimes have to jump through other peoples hoops to get whatever that certain thing maybe.
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Proud 2b Peculiar
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5560
- Location: American Fork, Utah
Re: Formal Education
I think that my goals are changing. I wanted to go all the way to getting my Doctorate in Education. I was going to teach in public school for awhile before finishing that goal, but before even getting my Associates, I realized that I cannot teach in that atmosphere. I started home educating my children, and I took Dr. Kimber's Teacher's course, and I feel like I learned more in those few hours then in all my teaching classes.
Not sure what I should do, my PB is so very all inclusive about education LOL
Basically I am to study about everything there is on this earth, around it and in it.. people, places, nations, thoughts and ideas.... And hopefully my temporal studies will be a thorough as my spiritual....
Not sure what I should do, my PB is so very all inclusive about education LOL
Basically I am to study about everything there is on this earth, around it and in it.. people, places, nations, thoughts and ideas.... And hopefully my temporal studies will be a thorough as my spiritual....
