BSA approves gay membership

[gkearney]

The vote to accept gay membership was approved by 61%.

[karend77]

And the church response:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/c ... olicy-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

............... As the Church moves forward in its association with the Boy Scouts of America, Church leaders will continue to seek the most effective ways to address the diverse needs of young people in the United States and throughout the world...............

[TZONE]

Also

These standards are outlined in the booklet For the Strength of Youth and include abstinence from sexual relationships. We remain firmly committed to upholding these standards and to protecting and strengthening boys and young men.

Not sure exactly what htat means based on the rest of it

[sevenator]

For all intents nothing changes for troops sponsored by the LDS Church. Personally, I think it's a pretty weak-sauce response.

I'm wondering what happened to 'morally straight'....

Maybe there will be a backlash among the membership about this. I almost hope so. We've got a couple of hard-core scouters in the ward and I'm going to be interested in their reaction.

[SmallFarm]

For all intents nothing changes for troops sponsored by the LDS Church. Personally, I think it's a pretty weak-sauce response.

I'm wondering what happened to 'morally straight'....

Maybe there will be a backlash among the membership about this. I almost hope so. We've got a couple of hard-core scouters in the ward and I'm going to be interested in their reaction.

What changed about morally straight? It is not immoral suffer from same-sex attraction.

[Digitali]

It seems that if you have SSA, but aren't acting on it, you're good-to-go. If a boy is engaged (or known by peers) to engaged in SS "behavior" (not a member), will he have to be interviewed by the bishop before joining? LDS boys would have more serious issues than Scouts if they were engaged in that.

For LDS, makes sense, but for a gay boy who wants to be a Scout leader someday...maybe next vote.

Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest.

[gkearney]

I'm wondering what happened to 'morally straight'....

It is worth noting a couple of things about the term 'morally straight' as found in the BSA oath.

First off the word 'straight' when written into the oath in 1910 did not have any connection to sexual orientation as it does today. Then it meant that a boy would be truthful and moral in his actions. The moden use of the word 'straight' is an invention of the late 20th century.

Also the term 'morally straight' is not found in Baden-Powell's original 1908 oath which is:

On my honour I promise that---
I will do my duty to God and the King.
I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me.
I know the scout law, and will obey it.

Variations of this are still used today in many Commonwealth nations such as Australia:

On my honour I promise that I will do my best—
To do my duty to my God and the Queen of Australia
To help other people at all times and
To obey the Scout Law.

This follows the pattern established by the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM) to qualify a National Scout Organization for membership. See WOSM Constitution and By-Laws". World Scout Bureau. July 1983, April 2000. Retrieved 2007-03-10. Article II, paragraph 2: "Adherence to a Promise and Law".

[EmmaLee]

For all intents nothing changes for troops sponsored by the LDS Church.

Why do you say that? How does this not change anything for LDS sponsored troops?

As an interesting twist - the way it was explained to our ward by the local BSA reps (none of whom are LDS) is that the LDS Church has always had this as their policy (to admit boys who claim to be gay), and that the BSA is changing THEIR policy to fit the CHURCH's policy. Take it for what it's worth, but that's how it was just explained to us.

[skmo]

For the first time in my life, I am taking the public stance that the LDS Church leadership as a whole has made a wrong decision and needs to be called to repentence. I plan to do just that in letter contacting the First Presidentcy, and to do so with all my friends and family. When I am able to bring this up publically in church, I will do so.

[Benjamin_LK]

It seems that if you have SSA, but aren't acting on it, you're good-to-go. If a boy is engaged (or known by peers) to engaged in SS "behavior" (not a member), will he have to be interviewed by the bishop before joining? LDS boys would have more serious issues than Scouts if they were engaged in that.

For LDS, makes sense, but for a gay boy who wants to be a Scout leader someday...maybe next vote.

Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest.

To me, that's an important part about the LDS Church, it differentiates between the feeling to do something vs. committing the action itself. I think a lot of people in today's world have a hard time with distinguishing between the kinds of inclinations someone may feel vs. the actions they may commit. IIRC, sexual activity doesn't have much of a proper place in scouting, period. Also, if people thought sensibly, there are many, MANY, INCLINATIONS to do that which is contrary to the Lord's way, that members of the church do struggle with on a regular basis: SSA is only one of many, it is easy to be provoked with the day to day rantings against the church, but sometimes, it would be good for church members to just take a breath and realize that the church is being cautious about what they are doing. They don't want to condone unchaste, unwholesome behavior, but at the same time, I don't think they want to shun things at a rate that would make the Amish blush.

[Digitali]

It seems that if you have SSA, but aren't acting on it, you're good-to-go. If a boy is engaged (or known by peers) to engaged in SS "behavior" (not a member), will he have to be interviewed by the bishop before joining? LDS boys would have more serious issues than Scouts if they were engaged in that.

For LDS, makes sense, but for a gay boy who wants to be a Scout leader someday...maybe next vote.

Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest.

To me, that's an important part about the LDS Church, it differentiates between the feeling to do something vs. committing the action itself. I think a lot of people in today's world have a hard time with distinguishing between the kinds of inclinations someone may feel vs. the actions they may commit. IIRC, sexual activity doesn't have much of a proper place in scouting, period. Also, if people thought sensibly, there are many, MANY, INCLINATIONS to do that which is contrary to the Lord's way, that members of the church do struggle with on a regular basis: SSA is only one of many, it is easy to be provoked with the day to day rantings against the church, but sometimes, it would be good for church members to just take a breath and realize that the church is being cautious about what they are doing. They don't want to condone unchaste, unwholesome behavior, but at the same time, I don't think they want to shun things at a rate that would make the Amish blush.

That's the way I see the Church seeing it and makes complete sense. I believe the thing that gets people is the nature of the issue and how serious it is to jump from thought to deed and all that entails. I think the "world" will continue to push the limits of the implications of this and any similar topics where agenda's are waiting in the wings. I'm already seeing comments like, "that's a good start" from many who want to see the gay agenda take hold where it hasn't yet.

On a side note, I was listening to a vendor who I worked with tell me about a two woman who getting married this week who both have children from previous marriages to men. Satan's having his day...upside down world.

[pjbrownie]

As an employee of the BSA, I firmly approve of the vote AND the Church's response. Anyone who didn't see this coming, http://www.mormonsandgays.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; didn't really do their homework.

Those that disapprove of this, I have yet to hear a cogent argument as to why, since the behavior standards have been upheld and in fact strengthened.

[vaquero]

As an interesting twist - the way it was explained to our ward by the local BSA reps (none of whom are LDS) is that the LDS Church has always had this as their policy (to admit boys who claim to be gay), and that the BSA is changing THEIR policy to fit the CHURCH's policy. Take it for what it's worth, but that's how it was just explained to us.

I think that is pure spin. The AP wire story noted that some 70% of sponsoring organizations were religious institutions and that "the largest sponsors are relatively conservative denominations that have previously supported the broad ban - notably the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Southern Baptist churches." http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 3-18-13-07" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If a young man is open about his desires to act inappropriately with young women but tells me he hasn't acted on his impulses, do I wish him to date my granddaughter with the hope that she might help him overcome his impure thoughts/desires? Not on your life!

Somehow, this seems to be the spin put out by the public affairs department of the Church: so long as they do not act on impulses, it is appropriate to have homosexual boys mixing with other boys in close quarters with the hope that former may be helped. The risks are too great.

Counselors note that many homosexuals were in fact molested at a young age. The effects are devastating and lasting. I would not wish to have one of my grandsons subjected to that risk.

[vaquero]

As an employee of the BSA, I firmly approve of the vote AND the Church's response. Anyone who didn't see this coming, http://www.mormonsandgays.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; didn't really do their homework.

Those that disapprove of this, I have yet to hear a cogent argument as to why, since the behavior standards have been upheld and in fact strengthened.

Here is a cogent analysis as to why BSA's change was wrong:

http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-mem ... boy-scouts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;’-ill-considered-proposal-revise-its-membership-policy-homosexuals

[gkearney]

If a young man is open about his desires to act inappropriately with young women but tells me he hasn't acted on his impulses, do I wish him to date my granddaughter with the hope that she might help him overcome his impure thoughts/desires? Not on your life!.

Your granddaughter is going to have a very limited social life. Nearly all teenage boys have "desires to act inappropriately with young women" fortunately many do not act on those desires. Of course your granddaughter could always be safe dating those gay boys.

[skmo]

....If a young man is open about his desires to act inappropriately with young women but tells me he hasn't acted on his impulses, do I wish him to date my granddaughter with the hope that she might help him overcome his impure thoughts/desires? Not on your life!

....I would not wish to have one of my grandsons subjected to that risk.

Take it a step further. How would you feel about your granddaughter sleeping overnight in a tent with a horny boy? How would you feel about your granddaughter showering with a horny boy?

How would you feel about your grandson sleeping in a tent and/or showering with a gay boy?

vaquero is right. Church leadership is wrong in this case.

[SmallFarm]

....If a young man is open about his desires to act inappropriately with young women but tells me he hasn't acted on his impulses, do I wish him to date my granddaughter with the hope that she might help him overcome his impure thoughts/desires? Not on your life!

....I would not wish to have one of my grandsons subjected to that risk.

Take it a step further. How would you feel about your granddaughter sleeping overnight in a tent with a horny boy? How would you feel about your granddaughter showering with a horny boy?

How would you feel about your grandson sleeping in a tent and/or showering with a gay boy?

vaquero is right. Church leadership is wrong in this case.

your analogy only holds true if two gay boys were to be paired up together, which can be avoided.

[skmo]

This is the letter I just sent to the church spokesman who contacted me after the last time I sent in a note of concern and was asked to wait to see what happened with the BSA vote:

The BSA's final decision is antithetical to gospel principles. The church should not be involved with an organization that allows behavior such as the BSA has done. The statement the church has made on this is not only disappointing but is a disgrace to members who have children they are trying to raise with proper standards. The church leadership's position on this issue is iniquitous and will lead to members questioning whether the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve still speaks with proper authority from God. It is my intention to speak against this policy of the church and to renounce my sustaining vote of church leaders until such time as the church leaders are willing to stand for principles which are in harmony with gospel standards. The BSA policy is not thus qualified. The church will not allow young men and young women to go on overnight outings and place themselves in situations where they could be sleeping in the same tent or showering in the same facilities. Acceptance of the BSA policy of allowing gay members is no different than this policy would be. If the church leadership is unwilling to make a stand for proper and protective principles for the youth of the church, new leadership is needed or apostasy is indicated.

I plan to campaign against this church decision at every opportunity I get. I will speak about it publically, I will share my disappointment and my renunciation of support for church leaders with family and friends, I will post critical opinions in online forums every chance I get until the church changes its position. In my 48 years, this is the first time I have ever come down in open rebellion of church leaders, but I am driven to do this by my conscience since I believe President Monson to be in a position of disharmony with upholding strict gospel standards. The church leadership does not need to maintain a positive image to the world as much as they need to stand in holy places and be a light to the world for proper standards.

[skmo]

your analogy only holds true if two gay boys were to be paired up together, which can be avoided.

Nope. It can also be the case if a horny gay boy is paired up with a boy susceptible to manipulation. I went out with a lot of good LDS girls at Ricks who were very opposed to sexual contact before marriage. While I never forced anyone to do anything against their will, there was a considerable pile of discarded female underwear under the seat of my Mustang by the end of my first year courtesy of a beautiful singing voice and just the right amount of charm.

In any case, the analogy holds up fine with the shower scenario. Whether there is contact or not, I have no desire for anyone to look longingly at my package except my wife these days (as odd as that may seem with my past.)

[skmo]

Also, I must say: It's terribly strange for an excommunicated member to call God's prophet to repentence.

[gkearney]

I have been a scout leader for over 30 years. Scout Australia has never had the policy that the BSA had in regards to gays. Also we are coed which means that we potentially have the natural issues that might arise between girls and boys. Never in all this time have I ever had to deal with the issues presented here. I have never heard or spoken to any leader that has ever had these issues come up. Unless the culture and the youth in the US is very different from Australia, and I doubt that it is, my experience tells me this will not be an issue.

[skmo]

The culture of the youth of Australia and that of the USA are very different.

[Seek the Truth]

As an interesting twist - the way it was explained to our ward by the local BSA reps (none of whom are LDS) is that the LDS Church has always had this as their policy (to admit boys who claim to be gay), and that the BSA is changing THEIR policy to fit the CHURCH's policy. Take it for what it's worth, but that's how it was just explained to us.

I think that is pure spin. The AP wire story noted that some 70% of sponsoring organizations were religious institutions and that "the largest sponsors are relatively conservative denominations that have previously supported the broad ban - notably the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Southern Baptist churches." http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 3-18-13-07" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If a young man is open about his desires to act inappropriately with young women but tells me he hasn't acted on his impulses, do I wish him to date my granddaughter with the hope that she might help him overcome his impure thoughts/desires? Not on your life!

Somehow, this seems to be the spin put out by the public affairs department of the Church: so long as they do not act on impulses, it is appropriate to have homosexual boys mixing with other boys in close quarters with the hope that former may be helped. The risks are too great.

Counselors note that many homosexuals were in fact molested at a young age. The effects are devastating and lasting. I would not wish to have one of my grandsons subjected to that risk.

A victim of a sex crime should be shunned by an organization associated with Christianity?

[gkearney]

The culture of the youth of Australia and that of the USA are very different.

Really? In what ways pray tell?

[sevenator]

'Morally straight' doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual orientation, and I don't mean to offend anyone but what the Church's statement basically says (without actually saying it) is that acting on SSA is wrong. That's fine, but you have to know that the Church's stance is when reading the statement or it doesn't really look like much. I think that whoever put the statement together should have said what I just said and not that "the current standards...blah blah".

Note that I am not disagreeing with the Church's statement, I personally would have just liked to see a little clearer wording on the stance taken so that there isn't any wiggle room for someone reading the statement without other supporting information.

But just this morning there was a "lesbian mom" (?) on ABC news saying that this move by the BSA is a big step but the battle isn't over. For her, and other openly gay people, it won't be over until openly gay leaders are permitted into the ranks of the BSA. I hear people saying "just because someone is gay doesn't mean they are a pedophile". True as that may be, there's a tremendous difference in say, 9 year old boys in Cub Scouts and fully developed 15-16 year old young men in Boy Scouts. It would be like heterosexual men being alone in the wilderness with fully developed 15-16 year old girls. Some could do that without an inkling of temptation, but it would be utterly stupid to allow such a thing and the Church's leadership guidelines account for this. I realize this hasn't happened and I'm just blabbering here, but it will continue to be pushed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dhULPHDRfo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the sake of clarification and so you know where I'm coming from, I have no issues with anyone dealing with SSA. We all have our crosses to bear. We have a man in our ward who was openly gay, is no longer acting on his same-gender attraction and currently holds a temple recommend. He has HIV and is very frail. He has broken a lot of bones in the last three years because of this. He struggles more than anything else with not having companionship and it's very sad. People withdraw from him a bit because they don't know what to say or how to act. He has dealt with leaders that are less than compassionate about his situation. Our bishop, however, is a good man and a great bishop and has known him for many years and they have a good relationship. I've learned much about the sin/sinner differentiation in watching our bishop handle his situation.

Back on topic...my concern, as stated in a another thread on this subject a while back, is that this may open other cans of worms that will have more ramifications that anyone has considered in the name of political correctness. There was another discussion on this a month or so ago where we talked about kids claiming to be gay for the attention. Also, it's bad enough that boys get ridiculed for taking part of Scouting by the "cool" kids at school. What do you think is going to happen now? "Oh hey, you're a scout...you must be gay". I don't think it's going to go well at all.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm done now.