Boy Scouts close to ending ban on gay members, leaders

[tribrac]

Link http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01 ... snhp&pos=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Didn't see that coming after they took so much heat just a few months ago with their stance banning gay members. The world sure changes quickly these days.

[Rensai]

Link http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01 ... snhp&pos=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Didn't see that coming after they took so much heat just a few months ago with their stance banning gay members. The world sure changes quickly these days.

Its not quite as bad as it sounds. It says:

“The chartered organizations that oversee and deliver scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with their organization’s mission, principles or religious beliefs,” according to Deron Smith, a spokesman for the Boy Scouts’ national organization.

Individual sponsors and parents “would be able to choose a local unit which best meets the needs of their families,” Smith said.

This means that those who want to run things as they are now could continue. Personally though, I'm still inclined to pull my boys from scouts just on principle if they allow this change to go through.

[embryopocket]

If any of you have seen the Fulfilling my Duty to God manual that replaced the "old" Duty to God manuals for the Young Men, it incorporates lots of things that are included in scouting. To me, the change seemed like a "fail-safe" that the Church implemented just in case the Boy Scouts changed their policies. If the BSA decides to let homosexuality enter into the organization and the Church stops considering it "the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood," the new Duty to God manual has everything that a young man would need to experience from scouting. Thank Heaven for seers on the watchtower!

[gkearney]

If any of you have seen the Fulfilling my Duty to God manual that replaced the "old" Duty to God manuals for the Young Men, it incorporates lots of things that are included in scouting. To me, the change seemed like a "fail-safe" that the Church implemented just in case the Boy Scouts changed their policies. If the BSA decides to let homosexuality enter into the organization and the Church stops considering it "the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood," the new Duty to God manual has everything that a young man would need to experience from scouting. Thank Heaven for seers on the watchtower!

Speaking from a place which has had no church scouting for many years I can tell you that the Duty To God program has not been able to replace scouting and reliance on it to do so will result in a sharp decline in the activity rate of young men in the church. Let experience be your guide here. You have been warned

[embryopocket]

Speaking from a place which has had no church scouting for many years I can tell you that the Duty To God program has not been able to replace scouting and reliance on it to do so will result in a sharp decline in the activity rate of young men in the church. Let experience be your guide here. You have been warned

I agree that Boy Scouting is an amazing program, I am an Eagle Scout and many values were taught to me through the scouting program. I love Scouting. But if this organization begins to sacrifice their values to appease what the crowd believes, it may be possible that the Church separates itself from it. But I do not know the mind of the Lord and can't say if one thing will happen or another.

[Col. Flagg]

... so much for 'morally straight'. #-o

[jackthe]

Do you support or affiliate yourself with any group whose teachings are not in........ just say-in.

[rockwood]

Maybe your kids will have leaders like Ted whose Mormon.org profile can be found here http://mormon.org/me/7mmy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meet Ted the HIV+ gay man with "schizo-affective disorder (a mixture of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder that causes personality shifts and hallucinations)" that teaches Sunday School for the 8 and 9 year old class

"I often substitute the word "blind" for "gay" or "with metal illness".

Hopefully that ward is following the 'team teacher' guideline.

[Digitali]

They're trying to have it both ways with this, but with the Church, there is no two-ways about such things. Imagine a multi-troop campout (LDS/non-LDS) where there are gay/straight leaders. What could go wrong???

The Tares and Wheat make another separation....

[dauser]

Overnighters are gonna take on a whole new meaning.

[gkearney]

I am a leader in the Scouts Australia program. We have never, to my understanding, ever asked anyone about their sexual preferences youth or adult. There may well be gay scout leaders in Australia, I really wouldn't know. We are, as are most other national scouting organisations, fully co-ed from Joeys (6-7) to Rovers (18-26). Now I can not guarantee that there has never been an issue, be it with gay or straight leaders, but I can tell you that I have never encountered one.

We set high standards for our leaders, we expect and demand that they abide by those standards. If they don't we get rid of them and where appropriate call the police. End of story. We demand the same from gays as we do from everyone else and given that we are co-ed if we have a problem it is no more likely to be from a gay leader than it is to be from a straight one.

[gclayjr]

gkearney,

If you look at court cases for the scouts here in the U.S., it is not a situation of "Don't Ask Don't Tell". The gay rights groups will only accept acceptance of militantly vocal homosexuals.

The idea of organizations such as schools, military, churches and even scouts, just not objecting to homosexuality is not adequate, they will not stop until everybody embraces homosexuality.

Regards,

George Clay

[sadie_Mormon]

Maybe your kids will have leaders like Ted whose Mormon.org profile can be found here http://mormon.org/me/7mmy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meet Ted the HIV+ gay man with "schizo-affective disorder (a mixture of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder that causes personality shifts and hallucinations)" that teaches Sunday School for the 8 and 9 year old class

Sick to my stomach reading this mans profile. I think the Boy Scouts is doing a terrible job but maybe this will finally bring them to the point of revamping this scouting program we have. I still think they should go independent. Why not a Mormon scouting program with our standards (or what's left of it) even Awana is great. My kids did that for some time and they greatly enjoyed it. We are such a large church I don't see why they never did it.

[Teancum-Old]

... so much for 'morally straight'. #-o

No it's moral you see, because they have the same standards you see. If they aren't married, they can do what straight people can do before marriage and still hold callings. You know, go on dates, hold hands, kiss, you know, all the stuff you did before you got married, only they are doing with someone of the same sex, but it's ok because they aren't having intercourse.

Ok Ben. Perhaps you are going a step too far. I highly doubt the Church endorses homosexual activity of any kind, including dating, holding hands, and kissing. These are all activities which anyone would consider as acting on homosexual desires. The Church website on this subject states (http://www.mormonsandgays.org/):

The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Anyway, being that the Church is reported to be the nation’s largest single sponsor of Scouting, it would seem to me that the Church could very well have had some say in this decision. The SLT sees some similarities between the soon-to-be official BSA position and the official LDS position above (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55718 ... s.html.csp)

The faith allows chaste gays to hold "callings," or positions in its organizations, when chosen by local Mormon leaders, and its written guidelines do not exclude Scouting.

It is interesting that the BSA has backed away from this issue and has simply left it to local leaders to decide. I wonder if BSA local councils would go against Church policy on this and how the Church would react to that. It will be touchy no matter however this goes. The Church will likely get negative PR on this no matter what. It seems a public statement from the Church on this news is forthcoming.

I don't want to predict the Church's position on this but I cannot see how gays can be openly welcomed into Scouting. Would this mean that openly gay boys would be welcome as well? Could my sons be sharing tents with openly gay young men in the near future? Or sharing with two openly gay scout leaders (this would still meet Youth protection guidelines!). I cannot see this happening since that would be breaking the law of chastity. No different than allowing a boy and a girl to sleep in the same tent which is expressly forbidden in the Church.

[ajax]

Do you support or affiliate yourself with any group whose teachings are not in........ just say-in.

haha...good one.

[ebenezerarise]

For some of us the scouting program left their principles behind many years ago. I did not shove it down my son's throat and I actually think he is stronger for not having participated in the hypocrisy of it.

That said, yesterday's news was not an official announcement -- it was both a trial balloon and a warning shot. They have everyone talking about it and will let that percolate until next week -- when they will break the news officially, I think.

I, for one, will be glad if the Church abandons the BSA and goes to a strictly priesthood-based program for youth activity.

[Bgood]

This is somewhat similar to poligamy. You have John Taylor say there is now way in the world we will bend in this issue. He lives the last few years of his life in hidding as a fugitive and makes statements that God would never allow Mormon not to pracitce poligamy. Then He dies and President Woodroof says to hell with this were being killed from within and from without we need to change course. If the the BSA changes there policy I just dont see how the LDS leadership doesnt abandon them and still have consistancy of revelation. Just a decade ago they said they would if the BSA allowed gays. Its not that they were against gays its the same as prop 8 that by sticking with the BSA they are condoning the breakdown of the traditional family unit.

[gkearney]

Is there any public statement from a Church authority saying that the Church would abandon scouting if this happened? Or is this just a bunch of people speculating off the record.

[heartsongs]

The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

O.K., I am going to step out on a limb here and say. Indeed it is a matter of individual choice to have such an attraction. The temptation may be presented to your mind, which in itself is not a sin as we all have temptations placed before us to see how we will choose and if we will obey God's commandments, but, who do we think puts it (the temptation) there? In order to know how to win the battle with Satan you need to know how he fights. Satan is the one who whispers such ideas into our minds by speaking directly to our spirits and our minds. Recognizing it for what it is, and then shunning such a temptation from our mind, and not acting on the temptation is how we do not succumb to the temptation. The scriptures are true when they say that we are free to choose for ourselves "to act" and not be acted upon. The more we resist, the stronger we become....

[rockwood]

Maybe your kids will have leaders like Ted whose Mormon.org profile can be found here http://mormon.org/me/7mmy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meet Ted the HIV+ gay man with "schizo-affective disorder (a mixture of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder that causes personality shifts and hallucinations)" that teaches Sunday School for the 8 and 9 year old class

"I often substitute the word "blind" for "gay" or "with metal illness".

Hopefully that ward is following the 'team teacher' guideline.

I wouldn't give a flying flip if they were team teaching. No one (let along a homo) that has HIV and schizo/bipoler has any business with kids.

Did I say he should be teaching children?

[medved]

If any of you have seen the Fulfilling my Duty to God manual that replaced the "old" Duty to God manuals for the Young Men, it incorporates lots of things that are included in scouting. To me, the change seemed like a "fail-safe" that the Church implemented just in case the Boy Scouts changed their policies. If the BSA decides to let homosexuality enter into the organization and the Church stops considering it "the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood," the new Duty to God manual has everything that a young man would need to experience from scouting. Thank Heaven for seers on the watchtower!

Take it for FWIW, which may not be much, but I was in a meeting yesterday where I heard that in the event that the BSA does move forward with officially adopting this proposal--i.e., push the decision to the local units--the church will sever ties with the BSA in short order. We were told to try and make sure we had good Duty to God leaders at the local levels in the event the BSA makes its proposal official.

[Vision]

Thank Heaven for seers on the watchtower!

Compelled Revelation once again.

[Benjamin_LK]

The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

O.K., I am going to step out on a limb here and say. Indeed it is a matter of individual choice to have such an attraction. The temptation may be presented to your mind, which in itself is not a sin as we all have temptations placed before us to see how we will choose and if we will obey God's commandments, but, who do we think puts it (the temptation) there? In order to know how to win the battle with Satan you need to know how he fights. Satan is the one who whispers such ideas into our minds by speaking directly to our spirits and our minds. Recognizing it for what it is, and then shunning such a temptation from our mind, and not acting on the temptation is how we do not succumb to the temptation. The scriptures are true when they say that we are free to choose for ourselves "to act" and not be acted upon. The more we resist, the stronger we become....

Ether 12:27 offers plenty of supporting insight to this. I think a better way of explaining what you said is that while we may be prone to an attraction, the real choice comes as to whether or not we will "feed the attraction", or "act upon it". Again, there are a lot of people with predispositions to do things against what God would have us do. I don't think it's great feeling an urge to lose temper from a lot of situations that would seem benign, but with the Spirit of God, even living with a Pervasive Developmental Disorder is far more doable. It's not great or neccessarily a choice to feel frustrated at a lot of otherwise benign disruptions, but it's also doable to struggle against one's own inclinations in these situations so as to not allow it to progress into something worse.

[Fairminded]

I think a lot of the problems people have with dealing with these issues is the way society approaches them. I find it almost unbelievable that the support groups for those struggling with addictions call those addictions "diseases" that you are eventually going to give in to. They're basically saying "Hey, this isn't a choice, it's an affliction you can't help. So next time you're looking at a bottle of whiskey just remember that eventually you're going to give in and have the bender of your life. Why not do it now?" I've actually heard one AA member refer to his addiction as a 300 pound boxer constantly beating the crap out of him until finally he loses. Does anyone actually think that kind of viewpoint is healthy?

The other message I really hate from them is that you don't stay sober for other people, you do it for yourself. That's complete BS. Yes, I know that they're trying to avoid people doing it just for one person, on the off chance that if that person rejects them they'll completely break down. But EVERYTHING good you do is for other people, even if you don't realize it. And substance abuse has a huge impact on the people you care about, far more of an impact than it has on even yourself. Telling people to leave all true motivations out of the equation and operate on pure selfishness, then telling them they're going to fail eventually, is just, well, setting them up to fail.

Where am I going with this? I'm saying that no matter how you feel, what you feel, or what you desire, you do what you must do for love of others and in obedience to God's commands. You be strong enough to resist any other urges because the alternative is unbearable. Speaking from personal experience, there is nothing more damaging than entertaining the notion that you're going to fail. You stay firm 100% of the time on the idea that you cannot and will not fail, and you don't. Then you focus on other things and don't dwell on it.

[shadow]

Is there any public statement from a Church authority saying that the Church would abandon scouting if this happened? Or is this just a bunch of people speculating off the record.

On the record, as Cub Master I love speculating that the church will abandon the BSA =p~