Calls to Destroy Egypt’s Great Pyramids Begin

[Rass922]

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Quote:
"According to several reports in the Arabic media, prominent Muslim clerics have begun to call for the demolition of Egypt’s Great Pyramids—or, in the words of Saudi Sheikh Ali bin Said al-Rabi‘i, those “symbols of paganism,” which Egypt’s Salafi party has long planned to cover with wax. Most recently, Bahrain’s “Sheikh of Sunni Sheikhs” and President of National Unity, Abd al-Latif al-Mahmoud, called on Egypt’s new president, Muhammad Morsi, to “destroy the Pyramids and accomplish what the Sahabi Amr bin al-As could not.”

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This is a reference to the Muslim Prophet Muhammad’s companion, Amr bin al-As and his Arabian tribesmen, who invaded and conquered Egypt circa 641. Under al-As and subsequent Muslim rule, many Egyptian antiquities were destroyed as relics of infidelity. While most Western academics argue otherwise, according to early Muslim writers, the great Library of Alexandria itself—deemed a repository of pagan knowledge contradicting the Koran—was destroyed under bin al-As’s reign and in compliance with Caliph Omar’s command.

However, while book-burning was an easy activity in the 7th century, destroying the mountain-like pyramids and their guardian Sphinx was not—even if Egypt’s Medieval Mamluk rulers “de-nosed” the latter during target practice (though popular legend still attributes it to a Westerner, Napoleon).

Now, however, as Bahrain’s “Sheikh of Sheikhs” observes, and thanks to modern technology, the pyramids can be destroyed. The only question left is whether the Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt is “pious” enough—if he is willing to complete the Islamization process that started under the hands of Egypt’s first Islamic conqueror.

Nor is such a course of action implausible. History is laden with examples of Muslims destroying their own pre-Islamic heritage—starting with Islam’s prophet Muhammad himself, who destroyed Arabia’s Ka‘ba temple, transforming it into a mosque.

Asking “What is it about Islam that so often turns its adherents against their own patrimony?” Daniel Pipes provides several examples, from Medieval Muslims in India destroying their forefathers’ temples, to contemporary Muslims destroying their non-Islamic heritage in Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, and Tunisia."

[Rass922]

At least today the egyptian Pyramids are nothing more than heaps of stones. 3000 years ago they might had another significance but now they are simly tourists' fetish. Muslim extremists are capable to oblitere the pyramids, however. Recall how talebans blew up the giant statues of Buddha.

[AshleyB]

I think it would be a terrible shame if they were destroyed. I hate the thought of any precious historical artifacts being destroyed.

[sadie_Mormon]

That is just terrible. They do not have appreciation for the history in their country (or anywhere). Just a peep into what the future holds for Egypt.

[7cylon7]

Even if the pyramids were to be proven to be temples to Luficer, would you still not want it destroyed?

[sadie_Mormon]

Even if the pyramids were to be proven to be temples to Luficer, would you still not want it destroyed?

Not sure what this has to do with the Pyramids in Egypt. Can you give a bit more information so I can understand where you are coming from?

[jnjnelson]

Even if the pyramids were to be proven to be temples to Luficer, would you still not want it destroyed?

Is destruction of religious buildings a justified activity if that religion is based on pure evil? Do the principles of the first amendment cease to apply if the freedom of religion includes the freedom to worship the adversary?

Nope, sorry, I see no principled reason to destroy the pyramids, even hypothetical.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

I think it would be a terrible shame if they were destroyed. I hate the thought of any precious historical artifacts being destroyed.

I wholeheartedly agree Ashley! If this comes to fruition it will be a very sad day in my book. A tragic loss of epic proportions. We still have so much to learn. I have searched everywhere for more details on this story but to no avail. I could only find the same one article listed above being referenced by many. So hopefully it is just talk. Curious to what Obamas friends of the Muslim Brotherhood had in mind on how to go about destroying them? How many world wide catastrophic events have happened since the pyramids have been built? The pyramids were built to endure the greatest catastrophic imaginable. As with the Salt Lake Temple, it was build to endure the great catastrophic events in these last days and will survive through the millennium. The fact that the pyramids are still standing is also a great reminder how great civilizations can end in a heartbeat. And in this moment in time we could use all the reminders possible.

This is from Hugh Nibley's book Temple and Cosmos on Egyptian temples, (chapter; The Meaning of the Temple)

Why did the Egyptians build temples? Recently, Philippe Derchain has rediscovered a very important Egyptian temple document, the Salt Papyrus 825.31 Though known for a hundred years, no one realized what it was until he discovered it again. He begins by noting that the Egyptians felt themselves surrounded by an omnipresent and ever-threatening chaos. They were intensely conscious of the second law of breaking down—it haunted them. They were hypnotized, almost paralyzed, by the terror of that breaking down; and of course you will find in no place more dramatic and uncompromising descriptions of the processes of decay and the evil of death than in the Egyptian funerary texts. They hated death, they loathed it, but they looked it in the eye anyway.

Order and security are the exception in this world. It would seem the Egyptians entered the land in a time of great world upheavals. Their own accounts are full of it; they always talked about it. They had seen nature on the rampage, and they knew man hangs by the skin of his teeth.

Scientists now tell us about the great "Permo-Triassic catastrophe."32 The great German biologist, Otto H. Schindewolf calls the movement neocatastrophism, and it is indeed a different picture.33 How un-Victorian it is to give to books titles like the Violent Universe, or the Restless Earth. The earth is stability itself, as lasting and unshaken as the hills. If you but look at the daily paper, you realize that that is not the case at all.

It was the same in Babylonia. We read in the Abraham traditions that the prototemple of Babylonia, the tower of Babel, was built as a place in which to accumulate data and master the knowledge necessary to counteract—to meet, to check, to soften—any major world catastrophe. The Babylonians were scared to death—they had vivid memories of the flood—and desperately determined to avoid involvement in another debacle; they thought that technical know-how could save them.

The Egyptians believed that by the mind alone, chaos is kept at a distance. This implies that the cessation of thought would ipso facto mark the end of the universe. This was the great fear of the Egyptians: the most constant preoccupation of endlessly repeated rites was to achieve unlimited, everlasting stability. It was not the earthly temple, which one could pretend to be built for eternity; eternity was static time, hierophantic time which could be attained only by constant effort of the mind. You have to work at it all the time. It was by the operation of the spirit alone that things could be effectively preserved from annihilation.

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Well, I think it is safe to say that both the Babylonians and Egyptians had a very good reason to be scared to death. All ancient civilizations were scared to death. Great world upheavals were the reason for this fear. This fear & traditions were passed down from generation to generation and continued to take place even after the Heavens changed. "The Israelites didn't know WHAT had happened to Moses so they decided to return to old habits and pay homage to the "gods" for delivering them from destruction. And this is what the Golden Calf represented. They paid homage to these gods because these are the "gods" that caused the events of the Exodus." From fellow forum member AshleyB

Of course the modern science establishment mocks this. Today, we are being led to a sense of false security! They tell us small folks that space is empty and the world was created out of nothing. Great worldwide catastrophic events told by our ancient ancestors are nothing but myths and fairy tales. They mock our scriptures and prophets which testify of these things. They tell us the world we know today happened by horrible accident and is the result of a slow process spanning billions of years..

And if it does come to pass that the Muslim Brotherhood manages to destroy the pyramids it will be a tragic loss. And the reason being as the article states above... because of "Pagan symbolism." Give me a break. There has to be more to it. Maybe they think they are greater than the great Egyptian dynasties. Either way if they do destroy the pyramids because of pagan symbolism, no doubt if they had there way all our temples would also be destroyed because we use many the same pagan symbols. Damn those pagan rituals, ordinances, rites and symbols. (Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, the sacrament, ect... ect...ect..)

Hugh Nibley is the one who connects all the dots on the similarities of the Egyptian Temples to our modern day ones. There are so many similarities it's really mind blowing. Symbols, ordinances/rites.. The Egyptians temples of old were built to reflect and adorn the heavens above as well as the heavens of old.. All the symbols employed on our temples today as with all ancient temples have cosmic implications. In fact, the temples were the center of ALL THINGS in Babylonia, Egypt, and Greece. All temples reflected the Heavens and all things revolved around them. All Civilizations centered around the "holy point of the temple."

Here is another excellent excerpt from Hugh Nibley's book Temple and Cosmos on the similarities between ancient temples ... Return to the temple and temples in general.

Hundreds of books and articles written since the beginning of the century draw attention to certain basic aspects common to temples throughout the world at all times.15 The temple is an imposing structure, the place where one gets one's bearings from the universe, a place for the gathering of the entire race at an appointed time, namely the new year, to celebrate the beginning of a new age, the common birthday of mankind, i.e., the begetting of the race in a sacred marriage in which the king takes the role of the first ancestor. It is the "hierocentric point,"16 the place where all time, space, and humanity come together.17The world templum not only designates the template, the point of cutting between the cardo and decumanus from which the observer of the heavens makes his viewing, it is also the diminutive of the word tempus, denoting that it measures the divisions of time and space in a single pattern.18 There, all the records of the past are kept and all the prophecies for the future are divined.19 G. A. Ahlstrom concludes that the two basic symbols of the temple are in general (1) its cosmic symbolism, and (2) the paradise motif, setting it aside as a sort of halfway-house between heaven and earth.20 One center would establish others in distant places in the manner, as Augustine says,21 of a central fire that sends out sparks, each one of these setting a new fire to scatter new centers, etc., so that the whole world is embraced in a common unity around a common center.22 This idea is reflected in concern with cosmology, a theme dominant in the Jewish and Christian writings until the schools of rhetoric took over. "The earthly shrine [is] a microcosm of the cosmic shrine, . . . conceived as preserving the proportions of the cosmic abode of deity in reduced measure."23 "The temples," writes Hrozny, "were not only centers of religious life, they were also centers of cultural, economic, and even political life of Babylonia." They were also schools and universities somewhat like medieval cloisters.24

Albright notes that the original temple of Solomon as a point of contact with the other world presented a "rich cosmic symbolism which was largely lost in the later Israelite and Jewish tradition."25 Since the beginning of the century, widespread comparative studies have shown the uniformity and antiquity of this institution as well as its worldwide contamination and decay, so that not a single example remains in its purity, and yet by virtue of comparing hundreds of imperfect and fragmentary institutions, the original can be reconstructed with great confidence and clarity. In 1930 the so-called Cambridge School gave this doctrine the label of "patternism."26 Scholars avoided it until after World War II; since that time it has been accepted as standard by many.

But it was Joseph Smith who first pointed this out, recalling a common heritage from what he calls the archaic religion, coming down from Adam in such institutions as Freemasonry, and clearly pointing out their defects as time produced its inevitable corruption. What he himself supplied single-handedly is the original article in all its splendor and complexity: quod erat demonstrandum ("that which had to be proven"). The cosmic pattern is presented in every external aspect of the Salt Lake Temple. At the dedication of that temple, Brigham Young explained to the people, "So we commence by laying the stone on the south-east corner because, there is the most light."27 And at the dedication of the St. George Temple, "Precisely at 12 m President Brigham Young, at whose side stood Presidents John W. Young and Daniel H. Wells, broke ground at the south-east corner, and, kneeling on that particular spot, he offered the dedicatory prayer."28

Though I do have a few disagreements with Nibley, I highly recommend everyone read the book; Temple and Cosmos. I consider it an all-time great read.

Joseph Smith thought it was pretty important to learn Egyptian history and because of this we have the Pearl of Great Price. A book of scripture the majority of Saint's still have no clue about. Mormon apologist always seem to make the matter worse and by doing so takes us further and further from the truth. Or at least those who support the apologist approach. The mystery's of the Kingdom of Heaven (treasures of heaven) are only reserved for the humble and seeker's of truth. The interpretation of The Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith has everything to do with planets, celestial objects, the present heavens as well as the heavens of old. As Nibley noted that it is essential to study ("PLASMA"me) cosmology and the stars if one wants to begin understanding the Pearl of Great Price.

Those evil pagan symbols depicted in and on the Egyptian pyramids are in fact the very same symbols with the very same meaning as our our modern day temples. At least the original source is the same. The true and correct interpretations have been lost and corrupted. But thanks to our Heavenly Father these truths have been restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. But even now these truths are ignored or labeled as fairy tales by the saints themselves. Our temples are loaded with pagan symbolism from the very bottom to the very top, both inside and outside, as do many if not all ancient temples from all over the world. This is one thing our modern temples have in common with all ancient temples. Especially Egyptian. Add to that the Salt Lake Temple has 184 Saturn Stones as well as many other symbols that trace back and tie into ancient Saturn worship.

For the Egyptians and the Babylonians, as for us, the temple represents the principle of ordering the universe. It is the hierocentric point around which all things are organized. It is the omphalos ("navel") around which the earth was organized. The temple is a scale model of the universe, boxed to the compass, a very important feature of every town in our contemporary civilization, as in the ancient world.36 (Years ago, Sir James George Frazer noticed a definite pattern among ancient religious cult practices: they all followed the same patterns throughout the whole world.37 He explained that as representing certain stages of evolution in which the mind naturally expressed itself in those forms. But since then the gaps between these various cultures have been filled in, to show that civilization was far more connected.) Civilization is hierocentric, centered around the holy point of the temple. The temple was certainly the center of things in Babylonia, in Egypt, in Greece—wherever you go. This was certainly so in pioneer Utah. This pattern descended, of course, from ancient times to the Latter-day Saint church. The pioneer saints throughout the half-explored wastes of "Deseret" oriented their streets with reference to the temple. The street is designated first, second, third, east, west, north, or south, depending on its orientation to the temple. The temple is boxed to the compass.

Here are a few examples of many symbols used by Egyptians that is on our Modern Day Temples. Both have the exact same message and meaning. I have in other post as well as other fellow forum members expounded on these symbols so I wont do that as much here.

The Big Dipper
The Big Dipper was employed in all Egyptian temples for a very good reason. Here are a few pictures from our temples today depicting the Big Dipper...



Another view...



It is worth Noting that the stars here are different than the rest of the stars on the Salt Lake temple. The Stars in the photos above are six sided instead of the the rest of the stars which are five sided. The Big Dipper here is fascinating because it actually points towards the actual north star. Not a coincidence. Also something I personally find very cool is the fact that the stars a carved into the stone.

The Anchorage Alaska Temple also contains the big dipper symbol..



Washington D.C. Temple big dipper symbol.. (bottom right corner showing the big dipper and the north star) (over the Seal of Melchizedek).



A closer look..




The big dipper symbol is supposed to be understood with the north star as well as the Planet Saturn. Thus the reason the Saturn Stones are purposely placed above the big dipper on the Salt Lake temple. I have in other post expounded on the meanings of these symbols so I wont here. But Just wanted to show the one prominent symbol employed on ancient Egyptians temples and our own.

Also the Winter Quarters Nebraska Temple, San Antonio Temple, and quite a few other temples have the big dipper as well. All have Saturn symbolism. Or the Saturn configuration. One being the Eye of God..

Church news had this to say about Nebraska temple...

.. in one of the dressing rooms is a representation of the North Star and the Big Dipper constellations in the exact orientation that they would have to each other on April 6, the anniversary of the birth of the Lord and also of the organization of the Church in 1830. (The stars are formed by holes drilled in the glass, which makes them appear to twinkle.)

On the west end of the Salt Lake Temple you see the Big Dipper represented, a very important feature. Like the Egyptian temple at Dendera, you had to have the Big Dipper there, representing the North Star, around which all things pivot.38 The main gate must face east. The sun, the moon, and the stars—the three degrees—are represented there. It is a scale model of the universe, for teaching purposes and for the purpose of taking our bearings on the universe and in the eternities, both in time and in space. And of course as far as time is concerned, we take our center there.

Hugh Nibley, the Meaning of the Temple. (See the comments by Truman O. Angell ( SLC temple architect), in "The Temple," MS (1854): 754.

Here is the famous Denderah Zodiac relief from the roof Chapel of the temple of Hathor at Dendera, c.30 BC







Now the Big Dipper is in the center , the foreleg of an Ox. The complexity and details are incredible. This image is a late borrowing of Greek and Babylonian astronomy; however, a thousand years earlier, the interior of a middle kingdom coffin also has the big dipper depicted as 7 stars arranged as a foreleg. On the underside of the stone sarcophagus lid of a sacred bull. The foreleg moves through different positions within the seasons.

Truman O Angell, the SLTemple architect interpreted the Big Dipper as, "the lost may find themselves by the priesthood, just as the ancients used it to find the STILL CENTER OF THE TURNING HEAVENS."

The Salt Lake Temple is a magnificent example of the ancient traditions of representing the universe in miniature. From the foundation of four cornerstones laid in a sunwise (clockwise) rotation and the fifty earthstones designed to show the earth's globe rotating through the seven days of the week, we stand on earth, as did father Abraham looking up into the heavens. Orson Pratt designed the lunar phases.



Also notice what is below the Big Dipper on the Temple...



A closer look...



The Eye of God... Or the All Seeing Eye.. Eye of Heaven, The Eye of Horus or Ra, The”Eye”, “The Eye Of Osiris”, the "Solar Eye",

The earliest known history of the All-Seeing Eye, dates back to ancient Babylon. It was worshipped as the Solar Eye...



Egyptian Eye of Horus..





The eye of God symbol which is in perfect accord with ancient iconography. It is the basic symbol for the Saturnian configuration. This symbol alone can be traced back to every ancient temple, in every civilization. All can be traced back to the planet Saturn or more specifically the Saturn Configurations or to point one towards the Saturn configuration. Just in different stages. The Heavens before Noah's Flood and the future heavens of Mother Earth. It also should be noted that "the eye of Horus" is on the Book of Abraham Facsimile. When Joseph Smith gave explanations for the Facsimile it was all about the heavens, about celestial objects. So to find these images on the temple which is a small scale of the heavens it is no coincidence. As Nibley points out all symbolism on the temple has cosmic implications, they have everything to do with planets and the heavens. So to have the Eye of God symbol, (symbol for the Saturnian configuration), and above it you have the Big Dipper,(which is also in perfect accord with ancient iconography,in keeping with ancient astral tradition, the constellation Ursa Major or Big Dipper, the traditional locator for the Pole Star, is depicted on the west wall of the Salt Lake Temple where it is positioned so as to ‘point’ to the northern sky and the polar star, Polaris.) And What does the Big Dipper point to on the Temple?? It points to the North, points to the imovable star, the pole star and it points to the Planet Saturn! Which Abraham called in his day the planet KOLOB!



These star stones are the Saturn Stones, circles with a ring.



(Saturn appeared to the ancients to be a pole star that was usually fixed in one part of the sky on Earth's northern axis. The ancients saw Saturn constantly straight up over the north pole. Thus on the Salt Lake temple you have Ursa Major or the Big Dipper high on the west wall of the temple which points to the North Star. So it is no coincidence that the planet Saturn stands above the big dipper (which points to the polar star, the immovable star) on the Salt Lake temple. These stars are depicted there, again, to point the eye of the viewer to the north, the location of Saturn in antiquity. The temple is an earthly replica of the heavens. It puts the uniquely modern temple squarely in the heart of ancient tradition and in particular, Egyptian tradition. )

Also the 6 spires on the temple are replicas of the ancient World Mountain, the pillar that sustained all heaven — the same icon from which the Egyptians derived their pyramids.

Salt Lake Temple 6 spirals..





Should doubt persist about this interpretation of those spires, consider that the temple is frequently referred to in scripture as “the mountain of the Lord’s house.” This phrase makes no sense in ordinary terms. But in the language of Saturn symbolism, it makes perfect sense. If, as the ancients surely did, you consider the house or throne of god to be the orb at the peak, the structure beneath it becomes a high hill or mountain. Together, pillar and orb form the temple of god, or “the mountain of the Lord’s house.” Abraham's experience on Mt. Moriah?? Mount Zion? Mountain of the Lord...Mt. Olympus... Or you could say it's Jacob's ladder reaching to the throne of God. The Greeks believed that twelve most important gods and goddesses (Planets) lived at the top of Mount Olympus.

A drawing/depiction of During the Golden Age a giant electrical Birkeland current stretched between Earth and Saturn which to observers on Earth appeared to be a giant ladder or mountain stretching up into the heavens.



Thus the symbol of the steeple folks.


Ladder to Heaven?? “Mountain of the Lord’s house.”


Images in prophecy. We read of MOUNTAINS .. PILLARS .. LADDERS .. BABEL TOWER .. ALTAR .. KINGS.. APEX .. STARS .. LIGHTNING .. CHRISTMAS TREES .. SWORDS .. HIGHWAYS .. PHALLUS .. LINGAM .. TONGUE .. ANGEL .. CROSS .. SWASTIKA .. PYTHON .. URAEUS .. SERPENT .. CADUCEUS .. SHIPS .. MOON .. HORNS .. BULL .. COW/OX .. ARK OF COVENANT .. CAULDRON .. CAVE .. WELL .. FISH .. YONI .. MONS VENERIS .. TRIANGLE .. TWINS .. WHEELS .. OMPHALOS .. EYES .. OWLS .. HORSESHOE .. ENTRAILS .. CHAOS .. HAIR, Braided twisting hair via birkeland current .. ECT.......


In the original drawing of the Salt Lake temple the spirals looks very close to two ladders extending into the heavens. You could say this is also Jacob's ladder. Or Lehi and Nephi's tree of life. There is more traditional elements within Lehi’s and Nephi’s revelation that would have been quite familiar to their contemporaries in the Middle East. They employed cultural archetypes — already ancient in Lehi’s and Nephi’s day — that we modern Saints fail to recognize because they are entirely absent from our cultural traditions.

Comparative mythologists, who study the beliefs and traditions of the past, are keenly aware of the sacred or celestial tree as a predominant motif in ancient cultures. "Sacred narratives everywhere describe a previous World Age in which a colossal tree dominated the celestial landscape, joining heaven to earth." (M. Eliade, Patterns in Comparative Religion (New York, 1958), pp. 265-326.)

Among thousands of others, a few examples are "… the Norse mima-meither or the Tree of the golden apples of immortality guarded by the goddess Idunn, or to the similar apple tree of the garden of the Hesperides. There is the world-ash Yggdrasil, the greatest and best of all trees, whose branches spread all over heaven … It was the Tree of Life, and the judgment-seat of the gods, whose chief abode and sanctuary is at the Ash Ygg's stead (or standing place) where they hold their court every day. … It is white, like the Avestan haoma, although the whiteness must rather mean brightness, as Grimm pointed out. It is a near relation of the Innensaiile, that highest universe-column sustaining all things, universalis columna quasi sustinens omnia, which is so deeply rooted an idea in German antiquity.” (John O’Neill, The Night of the Gods, I-II, London, 1893, italics added).

"Eminent archaeologists are quite familiar with the fact that almost every race and tongue alludes to a tree now universally called the "world-tree". Were I to gather half the literature that I have found pertaining to this tree of trees, "holy trees," "life-giving trees", "winged" and "flying" trees, "trees of wisdom and knowledge", and "trees of death", it would of itself fill a volume. There was the "winged oak of Jove", known among the ancients as a miraculous tree, and Jove was the sky-god of Greece and Rome, and we must therefore put this tree in the skies. There was the star-bearing tree of the Hesperian Gardens, guarded by the world-serpent Ladon, the Soma Tree of the ancient Hindus and Parsees gave long life to gods and men, and was also a celestial tree. The Assyrio-Babylonian tree spread its shining branches over the whole heaven, and this tree was guarded by the "serpent-god of the tree of life". Then the Scandinavians had a world-tree called the "Sacred Ash" and Yggdrasil, and they said its roots penetrated to the under-world and its branches spread all over the skies. The ancient scriptures of the Hindus speak of the heavens as a tree. The far eastern races, as well as the far western, say that in the most ancient times "trees spread their supporting branches against the heavens and held the sky and earth asunder." These are all immortal survivals of the one great world-tree that stood on the bounds of the earth and ramified upward as vapor stems, and beautified the universal skies." (Isaac Vail, Eden’s Flaming Sword, 1896.)

"The tree of life is a well-known concept in the ancient cultures. An increasing number of scholars now concede that the mythical tree was essentially a symbol of the cosmic axis, the column that links the rotational poles of the earth to the poles of heaven as they appear from any place on earth." (Rens van der Sluijs, The Vortical Tree.)

Literally thousands of myths describe the world axis as a prodigious fiery or golden tree, rooted in the deepest underworld underneath the surface of the earth, whose crown touched the zenith or the pole star. This tree or world axis was a golden mountain in the centre of the world, the summit of which reached until the highest heavens. Some saw this tree as the body of a gargantuan god, the cosmic giant Atlas, whose feet rest on the earth and whose shoulders support the firmament. An endless array of metaphors – tree of life, cosmic mountain, world giant, and many others – refer to one and the same awe-inspiring object: the axis in the centre of the world.

The striking similarity between these traditional trees and Lehi’s tree is undeniable. Clearly, Lehi and Nephi drew upon symbolism familiar to all Middle Eastern peoples to interpret their revelation, in keeping with the reality that they were speaking to people for whom these archetypes and motifs were very familiar. What Nephi wrote about himself was also true for all those in Lehi’s company: "… for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews, and I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, … wherefore I know concerning the regions round about …" (2 Nephi 25: 5, 6.)





the Tree of Life symbol is first employed in the beginning of the biblical Creation account, where it was said to have stood in Eden, "in the midst of the garden." Eating its fruit imparted the knowledge of "good and evil" to Adam and Eve.

Ironically, it was employed in the end of the biblical account, in John’s Revelation. "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. … In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Revelation 22: 1, 2.)

The imagery in these verses is unmistakable: There exists no such tree in reality. What tree can be both “in the midst of the street of it” and “on either side of the river” at the same time? It is imagery—a metaphor—just as is the tree in Eden. This tree is clearly an icon or symbol.

Notice that John brings other elements into the picture that have counterparts in Lehi’s dream: A river and a street. We see those equivalents in Lehi’s dream. "… I beheld a river of water; and it ran long, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit. … And I also beheld a strait and narrow path …." (1 Nephi 8: 13, 20.)

These verses from Genesis and Revelation are clearly examples of what Nephi meant when he wrote: "... and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews." (2 Nephi 25: 5.)

Here are a few images from the ancients about the Sacred Tree.

Assyrian Tree of Life (Axis Mundi)



The Izapa Stela 5 – Tree of Life Stone Carving. dating about 400 BC in the Pre-classic period of the Mayans.







Norse Tree of Knowledge



Babylonians/Assyrians Tree of Life







Here are a few from Egyptian Sacred Tree of Life...









Any Idea where the worship of Mary came from? Try Hathor, who was a Queen of Heaven, a woman whose image was reflected in Lady Wisdom and the tradition which eventually became the Holy Spirit of Wisdom who helped Mary to become the Queen of Heaven in the flesh within the Christian tradition.



There is so many symbols which are deeply rooted from the Ancient Egyptians and all ancient cultures I can't even begin. Here is another one..

From Winter Quarters Nebraska Temple. It IS NOT the big dipper, but is also depicted in many Egyptian text, stone carvings, and Egyptian temples as well as all ancient temples.



This is Pleiades, which is used to represent the creation. It does not included all the stars of this constellation, but the design is unmistakable.



Amos 5:4,6,8
4 ¶For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:
6 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning…The Lord is his name.
8 He who made the Pleiades and Orion And changes deep darkness into morning, Who also darkens day into night, Who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the surface of the earth, The LORD is His name."

In the night skies of antiquity the Pleiades star cluster was an object of wonder and interest. It was the subject of myth and legend in almost every culture on the planet. Ancient folklore often speaks of the Pleiades as the home of humanity's creators and who allegedly guides our destinies and will return one day.

I have posted this elsewhere but because of concern I removed it. If anyone has a problem let me know and I will remove it again.
Washington D.C. Temple.. Top right corner.



This is also in accord with ancient iconography. No doubt this symbol is the same as the statue of the Greek goddess Aphrodite standing (watching) over the veil in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple.



Here are a few more photos of the Greek goddess Aphrodite



Goddess on the half-shell





Excellent comments on this topic by AshleyB/bestsun

The scallop shell was also associated with many ancient, mythical goddesses. Mythmakers often chose to rhetorically adorn the goddess’ hair with scallop shells to identify them to readers or listeners. Aphrodite was said to have been born on a scallop shell. Perhaps it was the didactical importance of this symbol that led to its use in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple, where a young woman stands is depicted standing on a scallop shell.

Many have wondered why such an image was included in an LDS temple. Why bring a pagan image into such a sacred edifice? The reason is probably the same as that which inspired ancient Israelites to bring such images into their temple in Jerusalem. It is, likely, the same reason that brought all other images to early Mormon temples: They are part and parcel of the iconography that connects modern temple-building to ancient temples. Like so much of that temple’s iconography, the Salt Lake Temple points the viewer back to the original Saturn traditions.

Also consider this.. Also posted by AshleyB...

Festivals that celebrated the ancient star goddess, Venus, were ideal occasions for women, who sought to emulate the goddess, to adorn themselves as the goddess herself. The bonnet worn today is a distant replication of the hat, hair dress or crown worn by the goddess in heaven.

Older, more customary variants of the bonnet draped a veil across the face, also a feature of the ancient sky goddess. LDS temple-goers will recognize the validity of this tradition and its connection to temple ritual and furnishings. The dress, usually white, was designed with symbolic significance relevant to the ancient appearance of Venus and her role as a fertility goddess. Thus, anything that enhanced the gender specific attributes of a woman was employed to demonstrate her procreative role. Indeed, the more elaborate, yet accurate, the duplication of the symbols/appearance — because the symbols of the goddess were representations of what she looked like in Earth’s ancient heavens — the greater the identification of the individual with the mother goddess, imitating her essential aspects. Thus, a practice that had deep religious significance in antiquity has come to be a mere fashion statement today. Such is the dilution of the original concepts and practices over time. Yet, the themes persist in our cultural traditions, outliving, by far, the knowledge and understanding they were meant to convey.

Now consider this...



Or there is this incredible and amazing photo featuring Joseph and Hyrum looking up to an angelic woman holding a torch or horn? (?) ... Notice anything?? Who is the lady??



This also has big-time symbolic meaning. here are a few images with the same meaning...

Images of the Djed Pillar i came across this Egyptian scene of a Djed Pillar and what looks to be the Comet Venus on the top of it - as shown/described in the "Comet Venus Book" by gary gilligan.





Also looks like a ladder stretching to some distant planet. Another interpretation is that of Stacked Ancestors or in other words a Totem pole..



A wide range of cultures worldwide portrayed their legendary ancestors in a stack, the one piled above the other.

Totem poles are one expression of a worldwide custom that portrays legendary or sacred ancestors in a stack. This theme is associated with the wider category of “axis symbols.” Axis symbols, in turn, have been associated with plasma formations observed in laboratory-generated high-energy-density electrical discharges. It is considered that the theme of stacked ancestors originated in observations by ancient peoples of an unusual and prolonged “auroral pillar”.

Here is another one...
Almost everything in the hieroglyphic sign below can be found in hte Book of Abraham Facsimle.

Ships, eyes,circles with another circle.crescent moons, Eagle, looks like the main body is in the shape of a behive. Also check out the top right symbol in the photo above.... If one apply's Joseph Smith's interpretation of the Book of Abraham is photo brings on a whole new meaning. For it is reflecting the Egyptians current heavens as well as the heavens of old prior to the devulge.



Or this..



Book of Abraham Facsimle #2


Alright... One last thing before I end this bad boy. Once again we go to the Washington DC temple doors...This time notice the earth clothed in what looks like a skirt on the right hand side, third from the top.



This image is in more temples. A closer look...



Closer...

[SempiternalHarbinger]

continued...


If you bare with me for two minutes this you will blow you away and also validate many of the symbols posted above as well as many other symbols on our current temples I have not covered in this post..

Not sure how many have browsed my "Plasma ELECTRIC Universe " thread??
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21475

But it should be noted, that there is no electric universe hypothesis without David Talbotts Saturn Myth/Saturn polar configuration. The electric Universe derived from Talbotts hypothesis. No Talbott Saturn Myth and there is no electric universe! Though they are two separate independent departments. In other words the Electric Universe started out as an effort to make better sense of ancient documents. And it has done just that. Bringing a whole new light to both scripture, Prophecy, and the temple. But there are many independent departments that are coming together in this. It must be stressed they are independent of each other but when put together and combined the puzzle fits incredibly. In fact it's mind blowing. Plasma cosmology, Plasma physics, ancient mythology, archaeology, biology to name a few. Of course the restored gospel and the temple experience goes side by side with all these pieces. None of them contradict each other in any way.

David Talbott is a comparative mythologist who has written extensively on the cosmological implications of the sacred traditions of all ancient cultures. His work offers a radical new vantage point on the origin of ancient cultural themes and symbols. What's interesting is his Saturn Theory/Polar Configuration foundation is Ancient Egyptian. His interpretations are not mainstream but it should be noted that both Joseph Smith and David Talbotts vision of the past are so similar that his work should be taken seriously. So when his interpretation came about and the Egyptians message was all about the heavens and planets, it must be noted that it is VERY similar to the interpretations by Joseph Smith on the Book of Abraham. In fact when one compares Joseph Drawing of the ancient heaven drawn personally to his close friend Philo Dibble In 1884, the Prophet explained to Dibble how the Earth had once been part of a group of planets in the distant past—



But what is amazing is the incredible similarities between the Dibble facsimile and David Talbotts Saturn myth.

Now here is a superb explanation and ramifications of the Dibble Facsimile By Anthony Larson!

The conclusions that one can draw from looking at this Dibble illustration can be summarized thus: Not one but three planets once stood above the Earth’s north pole, sharing a common axis of rotation with one another and the Earth in a “shish kabob” configuration, as seen in the Dibble drawing. This unique positioning allowed them to appear stationary in Earth’s heavens such that the Babylonians considered it possible to build a tower to reach them. This “constellation of worlds” remained intact, contrary to all the tenets of our gravity-based, scientific notions, and orbited the sun in the same ecliptic plane as all the planets do today. Also, a tenuous column of lighted gases and dust seemed to interconnect these planets, as seen in the Dibble illustration. -Anthony Larson

Now there is a group of modern scholars and scientists that agree with all these concepts. Their explanation of Earth’s earliest history, while unorthodox and disputed by many in the mainstream, concurs with the Brethren’s observations and fills in many otherwise missing details. This should also come as very welcome news to those current Saints who perceive the ongoing conflict between mainstream science and religion—most especially the restored gospel.

Talbott always wanted to remain true to the account recorded by the ancients, so he ignored the science. because the science says his Saturn Myth was impossible. But in the mid 1990s this changed. A man showed up in his office telling him that what he was depicting in the ancient heaven was plasma discharges and can be viewed in laboratories using huge amounts of electricity. This man was Wal Thornhill a plasma physicist. And ended up being his partner to this day and co-authored the "Thunderbolts of the Gods"

Together, Talbott and Thornhill question the fundamental pillar of today’s theoretical cosmology—the concept of the “uneventful solar system.” They are adamant that the Sun’s acquisition of that brown dwarf star, now known as the planet Saturn, and its entourage took place within historic times, as evidenced by the records, traditions and religions of all ancient cultures. These ancient civilizations, which unanimously declare that Earth was once lighted by Saturn, now classified as a “dark star” or “failed star” by astronomers due to its energetic output, is the same orb that many cultural traditions designate as the “first sun,” or “best sun,” as well as “god’s throne.” The Babylonians, for example, made the most unequivocal statement of all ancient civilizations when they wrote, “The sun is Saturn.”

Talbott wrote of his and Thornhill’s studies, “Following quite different research paths, we arrived at the same conclusion: the ancient sky was alive with activity. The evidence suggests that only a few thousand years ago planets moved close to Earth, producing electrical phenomena of intense beauty and terror. Ancient sky worshippers witnessed these celestial wonders, and far-flung cultures recorded the events in the great myths, symbols, and ritual practices of antiquity.” (Thunderbolts of the Gods, p. 6.)

They additionally declare that the appearance and movements of planets that once hovered near the Earth, together with the life-like movements seen in electrified plasma displays of light and sound that erupted between those neighboring planets, are the source of all ancient astral symbolism, hyperbole and metaphor.

One example..


Left: Gamma Ray Burst (GRB) 110328A. Right: Plasma focus penumbra and filaments. Credit: (L) NASA/Swift/Stefan Immler. (R) Focus Fusion Society.

Or this...







Plasma gun


But the is another new development in Plasma Science! And I do not know of any activity in plasma science today more important than the Work of Anthony L. Peratt. I will tie it in the temple in one sec. Anthony L. Peratt is leading authority in the entire world on high energy Plasma Discharges and some Plasma characteristics have been named after him.. Peratt Instabilities. Peratt is a Plasma physicist, Electrical Engineer and Astrophysicist.

Peratt insists that what looks to our eyes as though they were myth-inspired icons, nonsensical doodling or just plain gibberish are actually accurate representations — facsimiles in stone,rock art images (also temple tombs, temple art, ect...) if you will — of what the ancients saw in their skies. He points out that he has seen all these same forms in plasmas generated in his lab experiments at Los Alamos National Laboratories. The forms exhibited by laboratory plasmas under the influence of electrical forces, recognized this ancient form of iconography as illustrations of plasmas in space. The pioneers in plasma physics tell us that what they see in electrified plasmas in their laboratories they also see in intergalactic space. What they see in microscopic experiments is virtually identical to pictures given us by the Hubble telescope. The term for that similarity between the tiny plasma configurations seen in the lab and the gigantic ones seen in space is “scalability.” That is, large, small or in between, these plasmas behave in identical and predictable ways.

It must be noted that Peratt has suffered immensely for his work from the powers that be and is now suffering from a number of illnesses. They have attempted allot to destroy him.

As for Peratt, his work is strictly scientific and independent of personal "theories and models." The results will come from supercomputers reading massive volumes of rock art data gathered in the field, to reconstruct what was seen from different vantage points on Earth. It's objective science at it's best, and it's a prodigious endeavor. In the end it will provide definitive answers to many questions. Peratt’s published works is HUGE so I can only give a small sampling. The ramifications are huge and inspiring.

Links are from the Los Alamos web site (no log-on or account required):

Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity (Part I, 2003)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 003clr.pdf (just under 12mb)

Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity Part II: Directionality and Source (Part II, 2007)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 4-2007.pdf (3.4 mb)

Other various papers:

http://plasmascience.net/tpu/papers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.theplasmaverse.com/pdfs/Char ... Peratt.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let me give one example of Peratt's work before I get into one his latest discoveries. This one is of the Ancient images of the Tree of Life, the Squatter Man. The Squatter man is also depicted in the Book Of Abraham Facsimile. So here is a comparison of ancient rock art with laboratory experiments and simulations on supercomputers of plasma discharge formations under the influence of electric currents. You will agree that the similarities are stunning.



The Squatter Man (Squatting Man or Stick Man) petroglyphs are an image recorded by nearly all races on all the continents back in the day. One day the ancients were painting color rock art and then, nearly literally, they were painting strange white shapes and figures. Every one started at the same time with the same images. Either all races were in contact with each other or they were all inspired by the same event. The most likely way they could all have seen it was if the event was in the sky.

The discovery that objects from the Neolithic or Early Bronze Age carry patterns associated with high-current Z-pinches provides a possible insight into the origin and meaning of these ancient symbols produced by man. This paper directly compares the graphIcal and radiation data from high-current Z-pinches to these patterns. The paper focuses primarily, but not exclusively, on petroglyphs. It is found that a great many archaic petroglyphs can be classified according to plasma stability and instability data. As the same morphological types are found worldwide, the comparisons suggest the occurrence of an intense aurora, as might be produced if the solar wind had increased between one and two orders of magnitude, millennia ago

MUST WATCH!!This sample (part 2 of 3) of Symbols of an Alien sky shows the Squatter Man and the plasma discharge. If you can not hand 10 minutes then start around 5 minutes into it when it shows the different types of Squatting Man images from around the world. Starting at 7 minutes it turn epic!!





Chinese Longevity Symbol calls (“squatter man")


Another version of the Peratt Instability is seen here (left) in a computer simulation of an actual plasma experiment in the laboratory.
plasma experiment in the laboratory....


Compare it to a reproduction of an Arizona petroglyph....


The correlation is stunning, and it leaves no doubt about the original subject for this Native American petroglyph.

Peratt identifies the parts of the stone glyph that correspond to those elements of a Peratt Instability (below).

This plasma image figures prominently in the mythology of the past, where it was call the “sky mask,” giving rise to the universal practice of wearing masks in conjunction with religious ceremonies and stacked divinity icons in “totems.” The obvious relationship of these plasma images to sacred imagery leads to only one conclusion: Earth’s ancient inhabitants recorded by every means possible what they could see in the skies above them during an epoch of intense electrical plasma activity in the heavens. -Anthony Larson

And a comparison of a variety of Greek thunderbolt images (nine images below) to some primary plasma constructs seen in computer simulations of laboratory plasma (five images below) leaves little doubt what the ancient Greeks saw.



“It's the Thunderbolt that steers the Universe” Heraclitus, 5th Century B.C



This next part comes from Peratt's latest paper which you can find listed above under part 2.

I’ll not reproduce the technical reconstruction described in the paper but seems likely that from the various petroglyphs and megaliths, Early Bronze Age people probably say the following plasma phenomena in the sky and polar regions as reconstructed by Peratt et al as figure 67 below.





Fig. 67. Conceptual view of the Birkeland sheath filaments surrounding Earth
(28 close pairs). The relativistic electron flow is downwards toward Antarctica.
As shown in Figs. 63 and 64, the current bundle above Antarctica twists in
counter-clockwise rotation. By convention, the Birkeland currents and ion flow
is upwards toward the Arctic. Not yet completely resolved is a bend in the
upper filament sheath that allows the upper plasmoids and column to be seen at
northern latitudes.

Petroglyphs from the Columbia River Basin show a remarkable correlation with an oblique view of the auroral column when the authors of the rock carving were reproducing their field of view to the north pole.





Fig. 68. Left: Northern hemisphere petroglyphs from the Columbia River Basin, 45.65◦ N, 121.95◦ W. Right: Oblique view into the auroral plasma
column from these coordinates.

NOW WE TURN BACK TO THE WASHINGTON DC TEMPLE!!









How do you folks like that?? No doubt this is the same symbol with the same meaning never before understood. But now we know why this image on the DC temple as well as in a few others exist. For the Temples depict the heavens of old.

Peratt's conclusion...

That mankind in antiquity did witness and record the effects and images from an intense solar outburst lasting many years can be deduced by the records that have endured, for the most part very little changed, over the millennia [39]–[42]. With the advent of high-energy-density Z-pinches and associated diagnostics, high-resolution high-fidelity three spatial-dimension electromagnetic particle-in-cell simulations on terahertz computers, and the development of global instrumentation systems, facilities, and instrumentation over the past decade, it has become possible to perform the physics and observations necessary to support suggestions that an intense solar outburst and its effects were observed by mankind in the past.

That the outbursts were extreme is witnessed by the carving on rock of MHD images on rock worldwide, not unlike the
eyewitness accounts of “a thousand fantastic figures, as if painted with fire on a black background” from the September
1859 solar storm [43], less energetic than that discussed in this paper.

This image comes from the documentary, “Remembering the End of the World,” by Canadian Filmmaker Ben Ged Low, offering glimpses of the “Saturn theory.”




There are so much phenomena that can be explained by plasma-behaviour.
Such as:
Sunspots
Corona of the sun
Cratering of planet surface
Light phenomena on planet surface
Forming of spiral galaxies
Ancient rockart
Ancient mythology
Thunderstorms and dustdevils

Anthony Larson says it best.. "The astounding relevance of plasma phenomenon in space to the iconography of the ancients forces Latter-day Saints to consider the likelihood that if these manifestations were so impressive as to motivate cultures worldwide to record what they saw by any method available to them, then this same imagery must have found its way into scriptural accounts recorded by the prophets of God and into the iconography of temples, ancient and modern."

And to sum I will quote Brigham Young... "Every discovery in science and art, that is really true and useful to mankind, has been given by direct revelation from God, though but few acknowledge it. It has been given with a view to prepare the way for the ultimate triumph of truth, and the redemption of the earth from the power of sin and Satan. We should take advantage of all these great discoveries, the accumulated wisdom of ages, and give to our children the benefit of every branch of useful knowledge, to prepare them to step forward and efficiently do their part in the great work." [Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, pg. 369, August 31, 1862

Electric Universe: Part IV Plasma and World Mythology
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... hology.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/elect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... gods02.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/elect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... gods03.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/elect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... bolt08.htm

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Matt, let me help you put that book together!! You are amazing!

Not half as amazing as you Jules! And if it takes a book to talk and hang out more, all my chips are in sister!

[AshleyB]

Exactly Matt. It is dangerous to label anything symbolic as purely pagan because many pagan symbols were borrowed from sacred imagery. Anything can be made for good or evil so to label it one way or another would be a mistake. And I agree also that we can't just go around destroying things because we perceive them to be evil. Even if they were "evil buildings" it wouldn't give one license to destroy it. Don't we believe in letting all men worship where, how, and what they may? Great post though Semp. Actually though I have come to a few recent knew conclusions regarding that drawing Joseph drew for Dibble. Anthony believes Dibble got mixed up about what Joseph said each sphere represented and while I agree with a lot of Anthony's conclusions after further insights and prayer I have come to believe that it was just as Dibble described and that earth was the sphere in the middle. And that two planets actually resided on either side of the earth. One above and one below. I don't really have a lot of proof to say why this description is more accurate since it came from personal revelation but I think the real description is actually a little more interesting. Though, it still would create many of the effects Anthony talks about. Just perhaps not quite as EXACTLY as described by Talbot and Anthony.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Exactly Matt. It is dangerous to label anything symbolic as purely pagan because many pagan symbols were borrowed from sacred imagery. Anything can be made for good or evil so to label it one way or another would be a mistake. And I agree also that we can't just go around destroying things because we perceive them to be evil. Even if they were "evil buildings" it wouldn't give one license to destroy it. Don't we believe in letting all men worship where, how, and what they may? Great post though Semp. Actually though I have come to a few recent knew conclusions regarding that drawing Joseph drew for Dibble. Anthony believes Dibble got mixed up about what Joseph said each sphere represented and while I agree with a lot of Anthony's conclusions after further insights and prayer I have come to believe that it was just as Dibble described and that earth was the sphere in the middle. And that two planets actually resided on either side of the earth. One above and one below. I don't really have a lot of proof to say why this description is more accurate since it came from personal revelation but I think the real description is actually a little more interesting. Though, it still would create many of the effects Anthony talks about. Just perhaps not quite as EXACTLY as described by Talbot and Anthony.

Thanks for the response Ashley! I really like that you are willing to disagree with others even if it be from the leading experts! It's what I like about you, nobody does your thinking. And I am buying what your saying.

Talbott does have holes in his reconstruction and he will be the first to say so. This is what I really like about Talbott. As new information becomes available he has not been afraid of revising his theory. He recently admitted that the works of Anthony Peratt has the ability to turn his theory upside down. But I do believe Talbott has definitely hit on some eternal truths. But neither Talbott nor Larson are the end all and there is still so much to learn. But personal revelation trumps all!

Here is the quote you were referring too...

"The conclusions that one can draw from looking at this Dibble illustration can be summarized thus: Not one but three planets once stood above the Earth’s north pole, sharing a common axis of rotation with one another and the Earth in a “shish kabob” configuration, as seen in the Dibble drawing. This unique positioning allowed them to appear stationary in Earth’s heavens such that the Babylonians considered it possible to build a tower to reach them. This “constellation of worlds” remained intact, contrary to all the tenets of our gravity-based, scientific notions, and orbited the sun in the same ecliptic plane as all the planets do today. Also, a tenuous column of lighted gases and dust seemed to interconnect these planets, as seen in the Dibble illustration"

The red and underline part is what you were referring to right? Took me a second but I got you!

I'm with you Ashley, Larson interpretation of the Dibble facsimile that not one but three planets once stood above Earth's Northern axis, (none below) might not be exactly right in regards to the Dibble facsimile. Larson says the planet Saturn is the third planet that stood above earth's northern heavens, (not in the drawing) Earth being the bottom of the three shown in the facsimile. Though I think both Talbott and Larson are right in a sense, their just not in this case in the time line of human events specifically with relation to the Dibble Facsimile OR it is a piece of the puzzle Talbott has yet to discover. We know the city of Enoch (planet) once stood above earths northern axis, close enough to were the Babylonians thought it was feasible to build a tower high enough to reach it. We also know from the Dibble facsimile and key statements from Joseph Smith that the Lost tribes (planet) once stood in the polar regions right above earth's Northern Axis..

“The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth or a portion of the Earth was, by a miracle, broken off and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the polar regions."

Also consider Eliza R. Snow hymn... "And when the Lord saw fit to hide The ten lost tribes away, Thou, earth, was severed to provide The orb on which they stay."(The hymn appears as no. 322 of the 1905 hymn book, 5th verse.)

Early patriarch, Homer M. Brown said this of a conversation with Joseph Smith. Pick it up in the middle...

After re-entering the house the Prophet said: 'Brother Brown, I noticed when I came in that you were reading the Doctrine and Covenants. Will you kindly get it?'

"He did so. The Prophet turned to Section 133 and read, commencing at the 26th verse and through the 34th verse. He said, after reading the 31st verse, 'Now let me ask you what would cause the Everlasting Hills to tremble with more violence than the coming together of two planets. And the place whereon they reside will return to this earth. Now,' he said, 'Scientists will tell you that it is not scientific: that two planets coming together would be disastrous to both; but, when two planets or other objects are traveling in the same direction and one of them with a little greater velocity than the other, it would not be disastrous, because the one traveling faster would overtake the other. Now, that would cause the mountains of ice to melt quicker than the heat caused by the friction of the two planets coming together?' And then he asked the question. 'Did you ever see a meteor falling that was not red hot? So that would cause the mountains of ice to melt.'

"'And relative to the Great Highway ,which should be cast up when the planet returns to its place in the great Northern Waters, it will form a highway and waters will recede and roll back.' He continued, 'Now as to their coming back from the Northern Waters; they will return from the north because their planet will return to the place from whence it was taken.'

This statement I believe makes perfect sense in relation to the Dibble Facsimile. I believe the facsimile is exactly right and is exactly what it describes. But IMO Joseph Smith was specifically talking about the Lost tribe in both the Dibble Facsimile and Brother Brown. I believe Joseph only showed his good friend Dibble a portion of a way bigger picture. If you notice in the Dibble Facsimile both planets, (above and below) are so close to earth they are connected by a plasma/Birkeland current. This would be the staircase, ladder, mountain, pillar, tree, arrows, ect.. reaching up to heaven and the "Throne of God."



But in none of Talbotts reconstruction does he account for a planets so close to mother earth and nothing about the south pole. Talbott shows planets in very close proximity to earth but not close enough for a civilized nation to think they could reach it by building a tower. I believe Joseph only accounted for the lost tribes which when they return that it will be similar to the dibble facsimile. The lost tribes and the City of Enoch are two crucial pieces left out in the Talbott reconstruction.



David Talbotts original thesis for The Saturn Myth...





David Talbott has Earth at the bottom of this polar configuration as does Larson. Which is VERY similar to the Dibble facsimile. But even if the planets are identified differently, the overall picture is the same, both Joseph Smith and Talbott understand the nature of the Polar Configuration and its impact on the imagination of mankind, and that in ancient times Earth's northern axis was occupied by a planet/planets. Different ones at different times. The ever changing heavens.

Here is a more recent Talbott configuration..



Jupiter was not visible when Saturn was the bestsun..

I do believe though at some point in human memory that multiple planets resided above earths Northern axis. Not just the City of Enoch or and the Lost tribes, but especially the planet Saturn. Therefore, I can see why there is still some confusion or why Larson would come to the conclusion that Dibble got the planets wrong. In other words Larson could be technically right in a sense that two planets resided over Earth northern axis at one point in human memory, but the Dibble facsimile just isn't describing that particular time IMO or Joseph Smith excluded that part of the picture because he was only discussing the Lost Tribes and it's return. I believe the Dibble facsimile is one piece of the puzzle and Dibble has it right. That is at some point in Earth's past it was apart of a three planet configuration with Earth being in the middle. I have come across lots of data that confirms this in ancient history and text. I have read often where Earth is labeled Middle Earth for a reason.

What sucks is there really isn't a platform for saints to run and test these new ideas. Just the ability to brain storm and throw ideas off the wall can be very productive and thought provoking. We unfortunately just don't have that kind of outlet at this time. At least LDSFF allows such conversation unlike other LDS forums. Just not much interest. I am just thankful our paths crossed Ashley because I have learned tons from you. I did quote you 4 times in my post above! ) So I consider you an expert who definitely knows more than I in this department.

But I also agree that Talbott is at least partially right in regards to both the Planet Venus and the Planet Saturn standing stationary in the Northern sky at some point in the past, it was apart of a configuration with both being positioned in the Northern axis. I am still open minded on Mars/Mercury. I also believe Joseph Smith taught this to his closet associates as with the huge amounts of temple symbolism of both the planet Venus and the Planet Saturn. Unless, for some reason the planet Venus really wasn't the planet Venus but the City of Enoch OR they are one and the same. (Don't believe so!)

We still know so little. The Heavens and Mother Earth has suffered from many Catastrophic events in human memory. Most of them were from catastrophic means involving a number of planets. The evidence is all around us. From geology, to archaeology, to plasma physics & cosmology, to the lore of our ancestors.....

We have the Fall of Adam which I believe involved not only Earth but many planets. We have the creation account recorded in human memory which accompanied world wide catastrophe. You have Noah's flood, and the celestial-oriented events that took place at the time of the Hebrew exodus from Egypt. You have the destruction of the tower of Babel which many ancient text describe as celestial events were the cause of it's destruction.. (Story of the brother of Jared has much to expound on this) Than you have the earthshaking events of Sodom and Gomorrah.. Death of the Savior, ect...ect... ect... The Heavens were always in constant change. Many epics and times. All with their unique view of the ever changing heavens.

I believe during the time of Babel there were at least two stationary planets in the northern sky. In the lost history of the earth we learn about earth coming in counter with other planets and comets, or the departure and return of planets in the polar configuration. Evidence leads me to believe that the planet Saturn has flared up a number of times while in close proximity of earth. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." What I have gathered is at some point both the City of Enoch and the Lost tribes resided above earths northern axis at different times.

We also learn of birth of planets in human memory.. A fascinating read is the Apocalypse of Abraham who is led by an Angel to witness the transformation of a star. It reads like a modern description of an ever changing elements within a star. And we both know that Abraham was only allowed to see the creation of this earth, in this space. But if you read his description of the transformation of this star (PLANET) it is all electrical. In fact the experience was terrifying to Abraham and the Angel.. According to Abraham, It's quite the experience to see the stars (PLANETS) always altering themselves.

Guided by an angel, Abraham passes with violent winds to heaven above the firmament. He sees an indescribably mighty light, and within the light there is a vast, seething fire; and within the fire is a great host of moving, changing (PLASMA) forms—moving within each other—of mighty forms that exchange with each other and constantly change their forms, as they go and come and alter themselves. (Sounds like a plasma ball) They seem to call out to each other, in strange, confused noises... (Apocalypse of Abraham 15:3-7, in OTP 1:696.) Then they are wrapped in fire and hear a voice and a mighty rushing of waters. Abraham wants to fall down on his face and worship. But there is no more earth under their feet and nothing to fall on. They're just there, suspended. Just listening to Abraham describe the noises he was hearing is frightening. (Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1-17:5, in ibid., 1:696-97.)

Abraham cries out with all his voice, and the angel cries at the same time, "Oh God! Oh, thou who has brought order into this terrible confusion, into the great confusion of the universe, and hast renewed the worlds of the righteous." (Apocalypse of Abraham 17:17, in ibid.,1:697.) There is a power that actually can master these terrible forces whose simple contemplation is absolutely appalling. This is what the late great Catholic scholar, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a paleontologist says: man is the most refined being there is. He is much more complicated, in chemistry and everything else; he is far more complicated than a star, even a giant star, or a star system, or a galaxy. This must be the end product of the thing—to be organized and controlled, to be able to carry on like this, with all these terrible forces unleashed all around. This appalling performance is the story of Abraham, who sees it all and says there is a God who can actually bring a world out of such chaos where the righteous can dwell. This is quite an idea.

This is the reason why I believe the symbols employed on our modern temples can be so loose at times. Yes, the heavens look the same today as they did yesterday, but this has not always been so. In earths distant and forgotten past the heavens were alive, and in constant change. Many different symbols used describing the ever changing heavens.

There is HUGE amounts of symbolism employed in modern temples of both the planet Venus and the planet Saturn that cannot be overlooked. Not just modern temples but all ancient temples and text. I also do believe that at some point in the ever changing heavens at least two or three planets maybe even more resided in the northern skis far closer than the human mind can fathom. But we still have so much to learn. How many great kingdoms have been lost in obscurity? We still have many lost records of eye witness accounts of human history including the records of the lost tribes. And I believe as these records come forth Dibble in the end will be proven right. Or that his interpretation of Joseph Smith was right.. But I will always keep an open mind.

So check these out... Little of topic but bringing it up because it shows how little we know and how there is so much to still learn. But this we know, that these kingdoms were destroyed by catastrophic events that we have never experienced but will shortly..

Ancient City Found in India (dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years)
http://veda.wikidot.com/ancient-city-fo ... mic-blast/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What’s very interesting about this discovery is the way it was discovered.. "Radiation still so intense, the area is highly dangerous."

"For some time it has been established that there is a very high rate of birth defects and cancer in the area under construction. The levels of radiation there have registered so high on investigators' gauges that the Indian government has now cordoned off the region. Scientists have unearthed an ancient city where evidence shows an atomic blast dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years, destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people. One researcher estimates that the nuclear bomb used was about the size of the ones dropped on Japan in 1945."

The Mahabharata clearly describes a catastrophic blast that rocked the continent which I believe was highly electrical in nature and don't believe it was from a nuclear bomb. Consider these verses from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata: which would confirm my theory.

…a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour…
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds…
…the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols…

..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
…The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognisable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.

After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected…
…to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

Historian Kisari Mohan Ganguli says that Indian sacred writings are full of such descriptions, He says references mention fighting sky chariots and final weapons. An ancient battle is described in the Drona Parva, a section of the Mahabharata.

"The passage tells of combat where explosions of final weapons decimate entire armies, causing crowds of warriors with steeds and elephants and weapons to be carried away as if they were dry leaves of trees," says Ganguli.

Also consider a few recent ANCIENT CITIES discovered in the Ocean.

Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -city.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





This discovery of ancient pyramids and ruins are still a mystery of course.



Cleopatra's Palace in Alexandria (Egypt)
http://rabbithole2.com/presentation/anc ... _found.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Off the shores of Alexandria, the city of Alexander the Great, lies what is believed to be the ruins of the royal quarters of Cleopatra. A team of marine archaeologists led by Frenchman Franck Goddio made excavation on this ancient city from where Cleopatra, the last queen of the Ptolemies, ruled Egypt. Historians believe this site was submerged by earthquakes and tidal waves more than 1,600 years ago.

The excavations concentrated on the submerged island of Antirhodus. Cleopatra is said to have had a palace there. Other discoveries include a well-preserved shipwreck and red granite columns with Greek inscriptions. There were also founded two statues which were lifted out of the harbor. One was a priest of the goddess Isis; the other a sphinx whose face is said to represent Cleopatra's father, King Ptolemy XII. The artifacts were returned to their silent, because the Egyptian Government says it wants to leave most of them in place to create an underwater museum.

Maybe the Muslim brotherhood will nuke the site as well. It might be safe bet to say there will not be any underground museum in the foreseeable future.

Few pictures...











Than there is this..

Lost city 'could rewrite history'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1768109.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The remains of what has been described as a huge lost city may force historians and archaeologists to radically reconsider their view of ancient human history."

"Marine scientists say archaeological remains discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India could be over 9,000 years old."

This, Mr Hancock told BBC News Online, could have massive repercussions for our view of the ancient world.

"There's a huge chronological problem in this discovery. It means that the whole model of the origins of civilization with which archaeologists have been working will have to be remade from scratch," he said.

Ancient City of Iranian Giants Found
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Mid.E ... ities.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Despite finding more than 40,000 structures in the city's cemeteries No one race to identify people who lived in this area yet."

"Apart from a number of statues of gods idols such as female and some male figures who are suspected of cleric class show no other symptoms that can be found in the main religion of the people identified. Explore the new building but a very, very big temple has been discovered that the answer to this question soon will."

Lost city of Atlantis, swamped by tsunami, may be found
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... JR20110312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Atlantis-like City Mapped Off Greek Coast
http://www.newser.com/story/71915/atlan ... coast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Discovery of Middle Asia Cities Recasts Ancient History
http://www.livescience.com/1758-discove ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New discoveries at dig sites in Middle Asia are rocking the archeological world and redefining the origins of modern civilization. Numerous sites in modern-day Iran and the surrounding region suggest that a vast network of societies together constituted the first cities.

WONDERS OF INDUS VALLEY CITIES
http://www.beforeus.com/indusa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The remains of these ancient cities are in modern day Pakistan.

Ancient Chambers Span Across Beneath Northern Arizona
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Ancie ... asure.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"It's absolutely mind-numbing. We would have never believed it could have existed," John W. Hohman, one of the three archaeologists, said Friday during the meeting of the 2,000 member Society of American Archaeology. "It will change a lot of what we believed about Indians in the Southwest. They may have been far more advanced than we believed."catacombs.

Evidence of ancient city found in depths off Cuba (INCREDIBLE ARTICE.)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/589562/posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Some structures within the complex may be as long as 400 metres wide and as high as 40 metres," he said. "Some are sitting on top of each other. They show very distinct shapes and symmetrical designs of a non-natural kind. We've shown them to scientists in Cuba, the U.S. and elsewhere, and nobody has suggested they are natural."

Moreover, an anthropologist affiliated with the Cuban Academy of Sciences has said that still photos taken from the videotape clearly show "symbols and inscriptions," Mr. Weinzweig said. It is not yet known in what language the inscriptions are written.

The Lord speaking to Nephi and it present today’s Latter-day Saints

“Know ye not that . . . I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?” (2 Nephi 29:7)

“Wherefore . . . neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.” (2 Nephi 29:10)

“For I command all men . . . that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; . . . (2 Nephi 29:11)

“. . . and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.” (2 Nephi 29:12)

“Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another.” (2 Nephi 29:8)

I have tons more I will post in the Plasma Universe thread on ancient cities discovered around the world and there ends.

Here is a good webiste on Ancient destruction's which takes the electric nature of the universe into account as well as planets in close proximity of Earth.
http://ancientdestructions.com/site/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And for those interested here are two short videos;

Baalbek and its Mysteries- Baalbek was an ancient acropolis built out of thousand ton blocks. Did Jupiter or Baal cause it's destruction via earthquakes?


Lake Mungo and Lake Victoria, the Australian Sodom and Gomorrah (Preview)


The point I am trying to convey (not very good at getting to point)beside catastrophic endings of civilizations is there are still SOOO many new discoveries to be made. There is still so many records to be discovered and revealed. As we continue with these discoveries, the hidden things will come to light and the vision will become ever clearer of the past and therefore give us a clearer vision and understanding of the future.. I believe it will definitely shed more light on the South Pole. Maybe the evidence is already there but we are missing it. Just think how many nations and kingdoms lay at the bottom of `the ocean or buried in the earth? Think of all we could learn from these lost empires and what exactly do these lost nations have to say about the heavens of old??? But it was not to be. At this time anyway.

Joseph taught about multiple planets being stationary or fixed in the northern polar sky in ancient times. Consider this...

Orson F. Whitney had this to say about the Tower of Babel...;

"… the object of the people who built the Tower of Babel (was) to reach heaven, to attain one of the starry planets, one of the heavenly bodies."

“… I cannot conceive how … a race of people … could cherish the idea that they could actually reach the sun, moon, or one of the stars simply by piling brick upon brick and stone upon stone."

“But the Prophet Joseph Smith, whose job it was to shed light upon the darkness of this generation, is said to have declared that it was not their intention to reach heaven, but to reach Zion, which was then suspended in mid-air between heaven and earth, or at such a height as to render the project feasible. This certainly is more reasonable.” (Collected Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 359.)

"it was not their intention to reach heaven, but to reach Zion, which was then suspended in mid-air between heaven and earth" Sounds like Zion was a planet which stood close enough to earth that they believed by building a tower they could reach it which stood between heaven and earth.. Also interesting that Orson F. Whitney said it was suspended between earth and heaven. Heaven I assume being another planet. This I find most interesting of all is Elder Whitney’s reference to this planet as being “suspended in mid-air,” implying that it may not have orbited in the manner so familiar to us today. Rather, it suggests that the planet moved in tandem with the Earth.

Here, Elder Orson Pratt confirms Whitney's testimony, (in the mouth of two or three witnesses) and gives us another clue to the ancient appearance of other orbs in Earth’s heavens,

“About the time of Abraham, the Tower of Babel was built. … They thought that the City of Enoch was caught up a little ways from the earth, and that the city was within the first sphere above the earth; and that if they could get a tower high enough they might get to heaven where the City of Enoch and the inhabitants thereof were located.”

Sphere=Planet. A planet in close proximity of the earth. And so close was this planet that the people of Babel thought it was feasible to build a tower to reach it. Also, both statements give the impression that this planet was stationary. Didn't move. Fixed. If it was constantly moving like the moon today, there would be no way to reach it. Kind of like building a tower to reach an airplane. Impossible. Also notice how he says the City of Enoch was the first sphere above earth. Implying there was more than one sphere (planet)above earths ancient sky. IMO

From what I gather from these profound quotes is the people of Babylonian (EARTH) we trying to build a tower to reach Zion/City of Enoch which stood just above earth suspended in mid Air which stood between them and heaven. If Joseph were to draw another facsimile to Orson F. Whitney, and Orson Pratt on what he is describing above would it have looked like this???



Also the Book of Abraham Figure 5's interpretation by Joseph Smith is that the planets/Stars in Abraham’s day WERE FIXED. (All celestial objects where stars.) The Lord stated that in Joseph’s day the courses of the planets were fixed (D&C 88: 43.) But in Abraham’s day, not just their courses were fixed, but the planets themselves were fixed.

Fixed stars, are such stars as always retain the same apparent position and distance with respect to each other, and are thus distinguished from planets and comets, which are revolving bodies.
(from http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/fixed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Also in the book of Abraham we read of fifteen planets, that during the time of Abraham, were fixed, meaning that these planets always retained the same apparent position and distance with respect to each other. ( If you have a different thoughts or want to add anything I am ALL ears Ashley!!)

Here is Orson Hyde on the Restoration and gathering in the Last Days..

"God says he will gather all things into one; then he will gather the earth likewise …. The gathering will be upon a larger scale in time to come; for by and by the stars of heaven will fall. Which way will they go? They will rally to a grand center, and there will be one grand constellation of worlds." (Journal of Discourses, 1:130.)

Worlds (planets) are a part of this gathering/restoration to their former location (Before the Fall)

Brigham said.

"When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. And when man fell … the earth fell into space and took up its abode in this planetary system and the sun became our light. (Saturn Flare -up??) This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father …." (Journal of Discourses, 17:143.)

“… and when it [the Earth] is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father ….” This parallels the doctrine of the restoration of all things. “Truth is the knowledge of things as they are, as they were and as they are to come.”

There is corroboration of this gathering of planets and stars. Samuel Hollister Rogers attributes this concept to Joseph Smith.

"When these stars (Planets) return to the place where they were taken from, it will cause the earth to reel to and fro. Not that the planets will come squarely against each other. In such case both planets would be broken to pieces. But, in their rolling motion, they will come together where they were taken from, which will cause the earth to reel to and fro." (Journal of Samuel Hollister Rogers, 1840, B.Y.U Special Collections.)

According to President John Taylor, this earth "had fled and fallen from where it was organized near the planet Kolob."

So I could be wrong but my take is The lost tribes reside on a planet and that planet will return to where it left, (the polar regions.)And if I am set on one thing it would be the Planet Saturn will reside in the polar regions during the millennium as well, We will return to "the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob." So right there indicates at least two planets, plus the city or planet Enoch resides on would be three. But One thing Everyone can agree on in regards to Dibble facsimile is it's clear that the heavens we see today were not the heavens of old. Exactly why this has been such a slow process because for the most part we have no knowledge of ancient history and kingdoms. And what we do know about history & kingdoms is so foreign to us today most saint's throw it by the wayside and say impossible.. Those who have discerned the truth about the earth's ancient history and its effect upon the language of the Prophets make John, Abraham, Isaiah, John the plainest of all scripture.

"And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen."

[AshleyB]

Yeah. Regardless of exactly how the planets were positioned and in what order evidence seems conclusive that there was such an alignment and I do believe there was one beneath the south pole. But regardless of the exact details there were planets close enough to create what scientist call a "flux tube". An electric discharge that connects the two planets and I think this may be how people traveled from one planet to another. It is similar to Jupiter and one of its moons. Can't remember off the top of my head which one it is but I think it might be IO? So it's very interesting that Joseph's drawing clearly depicts these connections between planets. I definitely don't consider myself to be any expert. I did take anthony's online classes and I have read three of his books but I wouldn't say I am any expert. You have probably surpassed my level of research by now. I think that in the beginning "the earth" consisted of three different planets and all three were considered as one though they were all separate bodies. Just like the Godhead. We know there are three separate beings who are all one in purpose and create a whole. So the symbolism is really awesome. I believe that Adam and Eve started out on the top planet and once they fell they went down to the middle planet and eventually the top planet left and caused the flood when it left. Then eventually later another planet left causing more upheavel and then the earth went from terrestrial to telestial once this happened. It is also interesting to me that in the books of Adam and Eve in the apocrypha it mentions that Adam and Eve were on a "mountain" with their posterity and then when their posterity made the choice to go down from the mountain to be with cains decendents down below that they knew once they chose to go down they could not go back up again to where they were but still some of them chose to do it. I know the apocrypha is full of many errors but I remember that part really sticking out at me when I read it and that was even before I started to study mythology and sacred imagery thanks to Larson. Lots of interesting things to ponder. I still like the quote from Joseph where he talks about how some segments of the earth will return that are much larger then this current earth is and he says it will not destroy both bodies. How else could that possibly occur other than this explanation? That the planets will become connected by these flux tubes once more but because of the charges the planets will never collide but orbit close to one another.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Yeah. Regardless of exactly how the planets were positioned and in what order evidence seems conclusive that there was such an alignment and I do believe there was one beneath the south pole.

Agreed!

But regardless of the exact details there were planets close enough to create what scientist call a "flux tube". An electric discharge that connects the two planets and I think this may be how people traveled from one planet to another.

I agree. This would also explain all the different animal life on earth. They were in essence transplanted to Mother Earth from another planet! I believe it is exactly as you described, through a flux tube!





How in the hell could evolution result in such a magnificent creature? Actually, evolution begins to look more and more like a black hole, lots of talk about it, no proof. I see adaptation, which would be neccessary on a planet where conditions are constantly variable, and the 'adapta-gene' is present in all living things.

It is similar to Jupiter and one of its moons. Can't remember off the top of my head which one it is but I think it might be IO? So it's very interesting that Joseph's drawing clearly depicts these connections between planets.

Yes it is Io! I posted tons about Io in the plasma Universe thread. Truly fascinating. Scientist still trying to figure out this surprise.

Footprints in Jupiter's Aurora from Electrical Flux Tubes Linked to Its Moons

Jupiter's aurora feels Europa's light touch
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8994" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Satellite Footprints Seen in Jupiter Aurora; Io, Ganymede, and Europa
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... es/2000/38

Io's Flux Tube Touch Down in Both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres of Jupiter
http://digg.com/news/story/Novel_Spots_Found_On_Jupiter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://digg.com/news/story/Io_Creates_S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _Jupiter_2
http://digg.com/news/story/Io_s_footpri" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... s_the_lead

The Io-Jupiter Flux Tube(s)

Early Energetic Particle Results from Jupiter
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td1802/williams.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Io "Dynamo"; Voyager 1's Magnetometer Detected a Current of About a Million Amperes. Compare That to the 650,000 Amperes the Earth Receives from the Sun along "Magnetic Flux Ropes" [Birkeland currents]
http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/wio.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jupiter's Io Generates Power And Noise, But No Magnetic Field
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 080022.htm

I definitely don't consider myself to be any expert. I DO! You have probably surpassed my level of research by now.Not when it comes to mythology, sacred imagery, and the restored gospel!! I think that in the beginning "the earth" consisted of three different planets and all three were considered as one though they were all separate bodies. Just like the Godhead. We know there are three separate beings who are all one in purpose and create a whole. So the symbolism is really awesome. I believe that Adam and Eve started out on the top planet and once they fell they went down to the middle planet and eventually the top planet left and caused the flood when it left. Then eventually later another planet left causing more upheavel and then the earth went from terrestrial to telestial once this happened. It is also interesting to me that in the books of Adam and Eve in the apocrypha it mentions that Adam and Eve were on a "mountain" with their posterity and then when their posterity made the choice to go down from the mountain to be with cains decendents down below that they knew once they chose to go down they could not go back up again to where they were but still some of them chose to do it. I know the apocrypha is full of many errors but I remember that part really sticking out at me when I read it and that was even before I started to study mythology and sacred imagery thanks to Larson. Lots of interesting things to ponder. I still like the quote from Joseph where he talks about how some segments of the earth will return that are much larger then this current earth is and he says it will not destroy both bodies. How else could that possibly occur other than this explanation? That the planets will become connected by these flux tubes once more but because of the charges the planets will never collide but orbit close to one another.

I love apocrypha writings!! I believe we can learn tons. As long as we use discernment as with almost everything else. I love that story about Adam and Eve and their posterity on the mountain. Definitely some truth to it IMO! Just like the Apocrypha of Abraham and his experience with the transformation of a star! Do you remember where you read that story of Adam and Eve?

Something that took me a while to grasp and still sometimes have a hard time getting my head around is the Fall, the Creation, and the flood in regards to ALL the different accounts told around the world. (MYTHS) But I must say, it fits so much better and makes so much more sense when compared to the teachings of the prophets and the standard works! Really is amazing. Foreign at times because I never fathomed the idea.! An electric view of the world unifies past and present. It explains why our ancestors were not crazy and why modern humans act crazy. It explains why thunderbolts of the gods are matched with thunderbolts of the galaxies. Gravity whimpers into oblivion; electricity floods the universe of explanation with the flip of a cognitive switch. If one dares to flip the switch: the universe and the restored gospel will never again look the same.

The mythology, traditions and religions of ancient cultures the world over and across all time are based in singular astral objects and events observed by the earliest inhabitants of this planet. That’s the basis of what one comparative mythologist called “the One Story told around the world.”

There is quite a few things I need to look into. Something worth investigating is the Israelites worshiping of the planet Saturn. (As did all ancient cultures) Even the name “Israel” (yis-ra-el)which means something akin to “People of Saturn” or “Saturnians.” Need to look into it more. But it is interesting In the Egyptian tradition, Ra/Atum is Saturn. He is the father-god, the fixed, immovable sun god. The texts say of Atum - ‘The Great God lives fixed in the middle of the sky.’

Astronomers now view the planet Saturn as the remnant of what had once been a brown dwarf star. It also goes a long way in explaining why Saturn was considered the "ruler of the planets", and why the god of that planet is found at the head of every ancient pantheon on earth. Ra, Brahma, Kronos, Moloch, and Shamash are some of the more familiar names for the supreme god Saturn. It also explains a plethora of perplexing other information including why the original name for Rome was Saturnia, and why Italy was called the land of Saturn. Or how the original Sabbath was named after Saturn. Also worth noting that the word "ark" (NOAH'S) derives from a root that, in more than one language, translates into an ancient name for Saturn. I'm rambling. I am still open minded on the planet Venus and Mars, but am firm on the role of Saturn in ancient times.

[JohnnyL]

At least today the egyptian Pyramids are nothing more than heaps of stones. 3000 years ago they might had another significance but now they are simly tourists' fetish. Muslim extremists are capable to oblitere the pyramids, however. Recall how talebans blew up the giant statues of Buddha.

And where did that get them?

That was a lot of cool stuff to read (and I've only read half!) and learn about.
I don't know about the tower of Babel being built to get to the city of Enoch. They already knew that by just speaking a word, Enoch scared the heck out of them, and they wanted none of that. I don't believe the toB was a false temple, either. Where were they trying to go, and why were they succeeding? Were they building a plasma generator? B-)

[JohnnyL]

Any relation?

2 Nephi 14:5
And the Lord will create upon every dwelling-place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for upon all the glory of Zion shall be a defence.

1 Nephi 12:4
And it came to pass that I saw a mist of darkness on the face of the land of promise; and I saw lightnings, and I heard thunderings, and earthquakes, and all manner of tumultuous noises; and I saw the earth and the rocks, that they rent; and I saw mountains tumbling into pieces; and I saw the plains of the earth, that they were broken up; and I saw many cities that they were sunk; and I saw many that they were burned with fire; and I saw many that did tumble to the earth, because of the quaking thereof.

1 Nephi 22:17
Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire.

3 Nephi 19:14
And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.

1 Nephi 14:13
And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
1 Nephi 14:14
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

[kathyn]

Maybe this is the reason that temples are called "the mountain of the Lord"? Because the temple is the closest we come to the celestial kingdom on this earth and it really was, at one time, the highest planet above the earth? It's all so very interesting and I need to learn more about the plasma and electrci universe theories. It certainly seems as though there were ancient catastrophes that spawned all of the myths and legends. It's fascinating.

[AshleyB]

To me one of the most fascinating things was to see the exactness between ancient hieroglyphs and drawings and the experiments of Anthony Peratt in his laboratory. My hubby likes to watch these shows like "ancient aliens" and ancient astronauts which have bits and pieces of truth but the conclusions they come to are completely ridiculous and not truthful. They somehow come to the conclusion these drawings have to do with Aliens and things. To me it seems quite evident that the "gods" of our pagan ancestors were but what they saw in the heavens and when you look at the plasma formations created by Peratt in his laboratory and the exactness of these drawings I don't see how one could come to any other conclusion.

It seems quite clear that they were simply drawing what they saw in the heavens.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Matt, that symbol we looked at the other day reminded me of these you posted:

Left: Gamma Ray Burst (GRB) 110328A. Right: Plasma focus penumbra and filaments. Credit: (L) NASA/Swift/Stefan Immler. (R) Focus Fusion Society.

Thanks Jules! Right on! Not sure how I missed it because It was staring right at me....

The symbol is one of many for Pleiades..



Also seen here...



Or here..











I really like this one...




A little off topic but very cool.. Ancient markings excavated in Jerusalem temple stumps experts..

Matti Friedman of the Associated Press published news about a recent excavation in the City of David in Jerusalem, near the Gihon Spring. The excavation revealed an interesting set of markings carved into the stone floor of a room, and expert archeologists cannot determine what their meaning or use was. The markings consist of three “V” marks, or perhaps gammadia “Γ,” although one is inverted from the other two, plus a straight line mark. They date to about 800 B.C.

http://ldsliving.com/story/66948-ancien ... mp-experts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/ ... p-experts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“They might have had a ritual function or one that was entirely mundane… The purpose of the complex is part of the riddle. The straight lines of its walls and level floors are evidence of careful engineering, and it was located close to the most important site in the city, the spring, suggesting it might have had an important function. A unique find in a room beside the one with the markings -- a stone like a modern grave marker, which was left upright when the room was filled in -- might offer a clue. Such stones were used in the ancient Middle East as a focal point for ritual or a memorial for dead ancestors, the archaeologists say… But the ritual stone does not necessarily mean the whole complex was a temple. It might simply have marked a corner devoted to religious practice in a building whose purpose was commonplace.”

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Maybe this is the reason that temples are called "the mountain of the Lord"? Exactly Kathyn! Because the temple is the closest we come to the celestial kingdom on this earth and it really was, at one time, the highest planet above the earth? Yes. And it was in very close proximity to the planet Earth and it stood in one place stationary, immovable, fixed in one place. It's former location is where the North Star sits, Polaris, the one star that doesn't move.



Also, that kingdom was the planet Saturn. or as Joseph Smith and Abraham called it Kolob. Thus the reason the Big Dipper is found on the Salt Lake Temple which points to the North Star, which was the location of Saturn in antiquity, thus the Saturn Stones rightfully sit above the big dipper on the Salt Lake Temple. Saturn, was the polar anchor around which all heaven turns. So, too, was ancient Saturn depicted as ever turning, yet never moving, fixed and immovable. It's all so very interesting and I need to learn more about the plasma and electrci universe theories. It certainly seems as though there were ancient catastrophes that spawned all of the myths and legends. It's fascinating.

I agree kathyn, it is fascinating!

To me one of the most fascinating things was to see the exactness between ancient hieroglyphs and drawings and the experiments of Anthony Peratt in his laboratory. My hubby likes to watch these shows like "ancient aliens" and ancient astronauts which have bits and pieces of truth but the conclusions they come to are completely ridiculous and not truthful. They somehow come to the conclusion these drawings have to do with Aliens and things. To me it seems quite evident that the "gods" of our pagan ancestors were but what they saw in the heavens and when you look at the plasma formations created by Peratt in his laboratory and the exactness of these drawings I don't see how one could come to any other conclusion.

It seems quite clear that they were simply drawing what they saw in the heavens.

I agree! I don't see how one could come to any other conclusion either Ashley. Yes, Alien to us today only because we live in a different world with different heavens than the ancients. But with the leaps plasma physics, and plasma cosmology the history of the past is becoming ever clearer. The images and sacred symbolism employed all over the world in all ancient cultures now has real meaning and context as well as strengthens my testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith and understanding of the temple and restored gospel.. They (the ancients) were simply depicting eye witness accounts of the heavens they viewed personally. Nothing Alien about it. Just huge energetic plasma discharges. It would look like the aurora lights today on steroids. The ancient gods were in fact planets.

"The most 'ancient treasure' -- in Aristotle's words -- that was left to us by our predecessors was the idea that the gods are really stars, and that there are no others."-- Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, Hamlet's Mill (1969)

Also Ashley, been doing some searching, and I believe you are right, or at least in partial, that is at one time Saturn Ruled the heavens alone. (one planet above Earth as the Dibble facsimile depicts) Question is when this was the case was there another planet in close proximity to earth on the southern pole?? I believe if we ever discover or confirm this fact about the south pole and I believe without question it will come from Anthony Peratt. To my surprise, much of Peratt's work deals with the South Pole, not the north. Anthony Peratt has recorded thousands of petroglyphs from around the world depicting what he termed an "aurora horn". (BELOW) Peratt has characterized these petroglyphs as depictions of synchrotron light generated within powerful aurorae in antiquity. According to Peratt, these aurorae were placed at Earth's south pole. They were not visible from the North.



Here is a video rendition of Peratt's "aurora horn". Kinda cool.



Results are coming in fast from Peratt. He has supercomputers reading massive volumes of rock art data gathered in the field, to reconstruct what was seen from different vantage points on Earth. It's objective science at it's best, and it's a prodigious endeavor. In the end it will provide definitive answers to many questions. Stay tuned!

[AshleyB]

Very Cool Matt. I love the stuff that Peratt is doing. I think its so awesome. And yeah, I think there was definitely a planet positioned for a long time at the south pole and part of that time it was simultaneously positioned there the same time the one of the north pole was. This is not any REALY tangible evidence to support it but I did recently read a book about a girl who went into a diabetic coma and visited with Jesus and others in the spirit world and when she came back she was blessed with extraordinary gifts. The veil had been lifted. She also witnessed many things from the past including the Saviors life, scenes from Josephs life and things from the book of mormon. She claims to have witnessed the beginnings of the creation of the earth. She was able to see things past, present, and future. One of the things I was surprised to find in part of her re-telling of the earths history was how there used to be a planet stationed above the earth's north pole and one below and that all three of these planets were considered together to be "earth" and she said some of the catastrophes of past happened due to these planets moving away from us. She also says they will return.

The first thing that really made me wonder about this was dibble's drawing although at first I accepted Larson's interpretation of it I still wondered and then when I came across this in this girls story I thought it was very interesting so then I started looking into it more and I have to say that it just feels true.

[7cylon7]

[quote="JulesGP"]I ran into this website that has some great info on symbolism. Here is what the author has to say about the Great Pyramids and Temple symbolism:
[quote]The Great Pyramid and Temple Symbolism: One Message in the Many
By Eleazar, 1999

The Great Pyramid at Giza in Egypt is the only remaining member of what the Greeks called the seven wonders of the ancient world. It stands in the geologic center of the earth and could rightly be considered the world's greatest wonder in this day. Its mysteries have yet to be unraveled by mankind as a whole, although well understood by an unknown few. The Pyramid stands as a witness to the glory of God as well as the ignorance of carnal man. Its message is one that is timeless. It is truly a wonder(ful message) to the modern (contemporary) world as well as the ancient world. When fully unraveled, one will stand in wonder at its message and to the glory of God.

The mysterious message of the Great Pyramid is one that lies at the foundation of nearly every religion. In its essence, the message is one that is plain, although it remains hidden to many in this age as well as in ages past. Its plain message can be titled by a simple phrase that is identical to the message underlying the LDS endowment ceremonies and repeated in many places throughout creation itself. One can simply title its foundational message as: "The Mystery of the Temple." The profound statement that reveals the mystery is "Ye are the Temple (of God)" (ie. you are what these things are all about).

But, there is much more (mystery) to it than the simple platitude that "Ye are the Temple". This brief essay will attempt to uncover a fraction of the mystery. There is a reason for this. It is because one must first realize the existence of the mystery, then discover how to find the mystery (treasure) on ones own. This essay will also include a warning. This is that no amount of intellectualizing can unravel the mystery of the Temple. To comprehend the real mystery, one must go beyond the intellect. Ironically, that is part of the mystery itself.

Again, this essay will not pretend to contain a complete analysis of the Great Pyramid or even a small fraction thereof. Many volumes have already been written on the deep and extensive symbolism contained in the Pyramid. Ironically, there is so much more symbolism yet undiscovered that even more volumes wait to be written by men who are truly ignorant of the real message. We do not intend to add to the volumes of vain intellectualizations already manifest. Rather, the purpose is to get at the real and plain meanings that are meant to be conveyed by the Great Pyramid and all Temples (buildings).

Ironically, this by itself is one of the great paradoxes that the Pyramid is meant to unravel. The mystery of the Temple is both complex and plain. One may take a whole lifetime in an attempt to capture all of the complex symbolism and yet, in doing that, he would have learned nothing. Men do this all of the time. Such efforts result in endless intellectual works of little real value because it is the plain message which is the one of real importance. One can get lost in studying the many complexities or, alternatively, one can find oneself in its plainness. Thus, this essay need not be lengthy. Its purpose is to point a direction rarely seen by carnal man. This direction leads to the message of the Great Pyramid (Temple) in plainness. And it is a message about you, the true Temple.



The plain message of the High Priest to Paul Brunton is that one need not travel to Egypt or to a building to be endowed. The priceless treasure guarded by the Great Pyramid of Egypt (Temple) is even now present right where you are. Anyone can seek it by shutting off the outward world and then begin discovering the hidden passageways in the true Temple of God. The Temple is (to be) the abode of God. Ye are that Temple spoken of.

This is the mystery of the Temple. But, this essay only scratches the surface because it cannot reveal that which is impossible to reveal through intellectualizations. To discover the real mystery and to find the priceless treasure, one must venture into the Temple. It is a narrow path that can be walked by only one person. That person is you.........


Deleted middle stuff to save space....


Sorry Jewels but this is all NEW AGE mumbo jumbo. You have to be careful about what you read. The main tenant of New AGE is that you are god and all you have to do is look inward and find your secret self that you are a god. We don't need a temple because you are a god already. So this goes right along with we don't need prophets if we were all our own prophet.

[7cylon7]

What we have to keep in mind about this topic is that all truth first came to ADAM and EVE from HF. The gospel was taught to him and his posterity. All truth came from HF. The way to get back was to humble yourself, put down the natural man and all its passions which are considered to be natural and in it's place put the love of HF first. We are to repent of our sins and come unto Christ and only through him may we be allowed to fulfill our destiny. Our right as a heir of HF is to become as he is.

ALL the other mythologies in whatever form we see tells this basic story BUT with a BIG TWIST. Lucifer, the bringer of so called light, has brought his own darkness, looking as light, to the world. He takes what is god's and tries to make it his. He takes the truth and twists it to turn man away from god and puts, in its place who else, himself. The true meanings of the gospel were lost as a direct result of rejecting the one and only true god for the temporary imposter god of this world, Lucifer. Many that speak on this subject will try to convince you that all religion is hog wash and is just star or sun worship, nothing more. I think we have seen that it was more than just that and if practiced with its true meaning in place would not be an abomination unto the Lord, but would bring people unto Christ. However, we know that this has not been the case in civilization after civilization. Lucifer likes to create lies, and love to deceive others into following him and he uses these myths and mythology to do it.

We know the truth behind such mythologies. For example: Prometheus (Lucifer) stole fire (Fruit of the tree from the knowledge of good and evil) and gave it to man (Gave to Eve) when Zeus forbid it (and God told Adam and Eve not to eat of that fruit for they would die ((spiritually and temporarily)). Unfortunately, Prometheus (Lucifer) is seen as the hero here for man. He gave man fire or secret knowledge that man did not have before and now man is as the gods, having fire (knowledge of good and evil). Many stories go on to show that man may become a god through his good deeds like Hercule and others. Notice, the Christ role is taken out of these myths. The god's are show as evil and petty and just like man whom squabble over power and jealousy. This is how Lucifer would like us to think about god and himself. Thus many do believe his universal view that he is the light bringer and brought sacred knowledge to man.

This type of theology view is throughout all antiquity. I see the truth behind the lies. To have the true gospel of Jesus Christ shines light on all the stories of old and how they have been corrupted. The only single truth still shines forth and the only single light bearer is Christ himself. The real Lord and god of this world who, in a very short time, will claim it as his own for 1000 years and beyond.

I have found this thread very enjoyable, Thanks for all the contributes.

[7cylon7]

Even if the pyramids were to be proven to be temples to Luficer, would you still not want it destroyed?

Is destruction of religious buildings a justified activity if that religion is based on pure evil? Do the principles of the first amendment cease to apply if the freedom of religion includes the freedom to worship the adversary?

Nope, sorry, I see no principled reason to destroy the pyramids, even hypothetical.

God, himself has destroyed thousands and thousands of temples to evil gods. Is god, violating the first amendment? Please.

If human sacrifice where apart of a religion, which it is, are we good followers of Christ bound to let this happen in our lands. Read your Book of Mormon a littler closer. We are not to allow these abominations to take place. Of course, many times the Lord has to take care of it himself by causing the whole entire city to be destroyed or even entire nations or even the entire world.

I think you may need to rethink this.

[sixth seal]

Even if the pyramids were to be proven to be temples to Luficer, would you still not want it destroyed?

Is destruction of religious buildings a justified activity if that religion is based on pure evil? Do the principles of the first amendment cease to apply if the freedom of religion includes the freedom to worship the adversary?

Nope, sorry, I see no principled reason to destroy the pyramids, even hypothetical.

God, himself has destroyed thousands and thousands of temples to evil gods. Is god, violating the first amendment? Please.

If human sacrifice where apart of a religion, which it is, are we good followers of Christ bound to let this happen in our lands. Read your Book of Mormon a littler closer. We are not to allow these abominations to take place. Of course, many times the Lord has to take care of it himself by causing the whole entire city to be destroyed or even entire nations or even the entire world.

I think you may need to rethink this.

I must have missed where all of the human sacrifices are taking place in the pyramids at Egypt. Absolutely! Destroy them!