Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Spence
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Spence »

Fiannan wrote:Hey, found the perfect video for the phantom note writer!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpH83Vi7b9E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There we go. I think I could see just a veiled glimpse of her nose. So hot.

It's absurd what goes on at BYU. Being sent home for not shaving? It is immoral to make an issue of morality about a non-moral subject. If you think that is right, I don't think I want to know what you think is wrong... *shakes head*

Let me re-emphasize. We came here to this life to make choices, we did not come here to be controlled. I don't care what contract was signed, it is a matter of control and not an issue of morality. What matters to the Lord is what is in your heart, not if you "follow the honor code."

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Spence wrote:It's absurd what goes on at BYU. Being sent home for not shaving? It is immoral to make an issue of morality about a non-moral subject. If you think that is right, I don't think I want to know what you think is wrong... *shakes head*

Let me re-emphasize. We came here to this life to make choices, we did not come here to be controlled. I don't care what contract was signed, it is a matter of control and not an issue of morality. What matters to the Lord is what is in your heart, not if you "follow the honor code."

It's not control if you do it voluntarily. Those that don't like living by the honor code....go to another school.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

patriotsaint wrote:
Spence wrote:It's absurd what goes on at BYU. Being sent home for not shaving? It is immoral to make an issue of morality about a non-moral subject. If you think that is right, I don't think I want to know what you think is wrong... *shakes head*

Let me re-emphasize. We came here to this life to make choices, we did not come here to be controlled. I don't care what contract was signed, it is a matter of control and not an issue of morality. What matters to the Lord is what is in your heart, not if you "follow the honor code."

It's not control if you do it voluntarily. Those that don't like living by the honor code....go to another school.
Showed the video to my wife who promptly responded, "Typical of Mormons there!" A couple of moments later she wanted to emphasize that she did not want to sound negative to the church; she has been a lifelong member with family in very high positions. The point is that people who are LDS look at this and think it is absolutely absurd what the guy did, and then think it's a Mormon thing. Then non-members look at it and feel like we are only a step away from being Taliban. It is not good PR. Of course then we consider how the BYU cheerleaders show off the results of their genetics and exercise...

The thing is, there is a danger involved in some things that have been adopted in LDS culture. For one thing, young females get bombarded with advertising designed to make them feel inadequate and then some members beat it into their head that if they happen to be good looking and wear anything short of a burka then they are "walking pornography." You know what? If a guy cannot appreciate a woman for the spirit she is and the calling she has on earth (from Eve's time) if she happens to show even the slightest amount of her body then he has a problem, not her.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

homincruz wrote:http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/kstu ... 0428.story


I don't know if anyone saw this, but I thought it was pretty interesting.
Everyone has a fetish. For some it's high heel shoes. Others it might be a woman's hair, breast size (which in some cases can hardly be hidden), eyes, even perfume alone, and in some cases leggings win out over bare legs! And sorry to say, but for others their fetish is telling others they cannot dress how they wish, but must dress so as not to reveal what their concept of immorality is, which is a bit silly, since as I say, for some a something as simple as a woman's hair or perfum can really get them going. I'm not into public nudity, but this kind of thing is ridiculous because it targets only one thing -- nudity, bare skin, whatever you want to call it, while completely ignoring everything else that goes along with opposite attractions. And yet, when we see this happening, I know of a surety, with every fiber of my being, without a shadow of a doubt, why Utah leads the nation in porn subscriptions (probably even by that guy who left the note), why Utah leads in male teen suicides, why Utah leads in the abuse of anti depressants, and why most mormon women wear their hair shorter than the men.

It's the same mentality as the Taliban but to a different degree, with different geography, and you get all kinds of warped ideas. For the guy who left the note and those that think like him, tear out songs of solomon from the bible, remove the part about the dancing daughters of the lamanites from the book of mormon, shut their eyes in the temple and try not to think that we are to understand that eve is totally naked as is adam, forget that isaiah preached naked for years, forget that peter the fisherman went swimming every day in less than a speedo, don't worry that david danced before the lord in the buff, and we won't even start with what aaron did for the children of israel.

So forget the "no dress code", bring in the tent. As for the men, women seem to think that a sharp dressed man is sexier than a naked one: all that chest hair popping out just doesn't cut it. Go figure on that one folks, and you'll see the utter stupidity of every single "no dress code" that has ever existed.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Fiannan wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
Spence wrote:It's absurd what goes on at BYU. Being sent home for not shaving? It is immoral to make an issue of morality about a non-moral subject. If you think that is right, I don't think I want to know what you think is wrong... *shakes head*

Let me re-emphasize. We came here to this life to make choices, we did not come here to be controlled. I don't care what contract was signed, it is a matter of control and not an issue of morality. What matters to the Lord is what is in your heart, not if you "follow the honor code."

It's not control if you do it voluntarily. Those that don't like living by the honor code....go to another school.
Showed the video to my wife who promptly responded, "Typical of Mormons there!" A couple of moments later she wanted to emphasize that she did not want to sound negative to the church; she has been a lifelong member with family in very high positions. The point is that people who are LDS look at this and think it is absolutely absurd what the guy did, and then think it's a Mormon thing. Then non-members look at it and feel like we are only a step away from being Taliban. It is not good PR. Of course then we consider how the BYU cheerleaders show off the results of their genetics and exercise...

The thing is, there is a danger involved in some things that have been adopted in LDS culture. For one thing, young females get bombarded with advertising designed to make them feel inadequate and then some members beat it into their head that if they happen to be good looking and wear anything short of a burka then they are "walking pornography." You know what? If a guy cannot appreciate a woman for the spirit she is and the calling she has on earth (from Eve's time) if she happens to show even the slightest amount of her body then he has a problem, not her.

Sorry Finnan, we shouldn't be interested in "PR". We are supposed to be a peculiar people right? I'm not condoning the actions of the young man here at all, but what I am saying is that BYU has rules and those that don't like them aren't forced to attend. Go somewhere else and show as little or as much skin as you like. I get tired of people stretching the rules and then crying when someone doesn't give them a free pass. BYU isn't necessarily the place every mormon should attend school. Many on this board have chosen differently and had wonderful experiences. If the atmosphere at BYU or the honor code are things you find irksome....apply elsewhere.

This girl made a public spectacle of herself for no reason at all. If BYU is full of dirty minded, judgmental freaks....go somewhere else. If this was an isolated incident, why all the fanfare?

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:Go somewhere else and show as little or as much skin as you like. I get tired of people stretching the rules and then crying when someone doesn't give them a free pass. BYU isn't necessarily the place every mormon should attend school.
But every Mormon funds it or you can't go to the celestial kingdom. And it's not about the skin, because I've already pointed out that the women aren't interested in skin, they want a sharp dressed man in a suit. The better dressed, the hotter the guy, the women won't deny it, sounds like a double standard to me, which is what this topic is really about.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Go somewhere else and show as little or as much skin as you like. I get tired of people stretching the rules and then crying when someone doesn't give them a free pass. BYU isn't necessarily the place every mormon should attend school.
But every Mormon funds it or you can't go to the celestial kingdom. And it's not about the skin, because I've already pointed out that the women aren't interested in skin, they want a sharp dressed man in a suit. The better dressed, the hotter the guy, the women won't deny it, sounds like a double standard to me, which is what this topic is really about.
You know what I mean. I could care less if it's skin, a suit or something else. The point is that the honor code exists, and you aren't forced to go there. As for funding it through tithing.....that is a choice as well.

There is no double standard. BYU has a standard for dress that applies to both men and women regardless of who is turned on by what.

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sadie_Mormon
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by sadie_Mormon »

Taliban... really??

Like it was said before... If you dont like the rules you voluntarily signed to accept there are plenty of other school without such rules.

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Spence
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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sadie_Mormon wrote:Taliban... really??

Like it was said before... If you dont like the rules you voluntarily signed to accept there are plenty of other school without such rules.
There is a difference from being contractually bound to follow the rules and following the rules because that is who you are.

I understand there is a voluntary part of it, however to me, it crosses my mind as being wrong. Why you may ask? Because so many BYU students don't have that in their hearts and follow those rules out of peer pressure, etc.

Fiannan
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

Everyone has a fetish. For some it's high heel shoes. Others it might be a woman's hair, breast size (which in some cases can hardly be hidden), eyes, even perfume alone, and in some cases leggings win out over bare legs! And sorry to say, but for others their fetish is telling others they cannot dress how they wish, but must dress so as not to reveal what their concept of immorality is, which is a bit silly, since as I say, for some a something as simple as a woman's hair or perfum can really get them going. I'm not into public nudity, but this kind of thing is ridiculous because it targets only one thing -- nudity, bare skin, whatever you want to call it, while completely ignoring everything else that goes along with opposite attractions. And yet, when we see this happening, I know of a surety, with every fiber of my being, without a shadow of a doubt, why Utah leads the nation in porn subscriptions (probably even by that guy who left the note), why Utah leads in male teen suicides, why Utah leads in the abuse of anti depressants, and why most mormon women wear their hair shorter than the men.
They have done research on people's attitudes on people and clothes. Interesting finding is that the more dressed one is the more rational and logical they are judged. The fewer clothes the more emotional, vulnerable and trustworthy. And while I agree there should be a standard of dress at BYU I would hope that we don't suddenly believe that character and morality are only centered around sex and so-called modesty. That leads to some pretty interesting spiritual/mental gymnastics of reasoning.

So baring your legs is not really immoral -- if it where why does BYU make its cheerleaders to it for audiences of hundreds of thousands? If one says it is because it is expected, then one must accept that what is appropriate to wear is cultural and not necessarily tied to scripture.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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If the cheerleaders break the dress code, why is there a dress code?

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:
ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Go somewhere else and show as little or as much skin as you like. I get tired of people stretching the rules and then crying when someone doesn't give them a free pass. BYU isn't necessarily the place every mormon should attend school.
But every Mormon funds it or you can't go to the celestial kingdom. And it's not about the skin, because I've already pointed out that the women aren't interested in skin, they want a sharp dressed man in a suit. The better dressed, the hotter the guy, the women won't deny it, sounds like a double standard to me, which is what this topic is really about.
You know what I mean. I could care less if it's skin, a suit or something else. The point is that the honor code exists, and you aren't forced to go there. As for funding it through tithing.....that is a choice as well.

There is no double standard. BYU has a standard for dress that applies to both men and women regardless of who is turned on by what.
I don't know what you mean, I only know what you say, and that is not what you said. My point is not to be contrary to your point of view, I am just pointing out that eliminating one source of potential immorality for one kind of person might just be creating problems for 9/10 others. Covering the human body unnaturally, or rather, making a big deal out of it if not even done correctly, creates problems (or fruit), and those fruits are certainly quite evident. And no, we do not have a choice: our tithing is used to fund BYU and you have absolutely no say in that whatsoever. So if I disagree with BYU, nobody cares, and we are still forced to finance what we do not agree with.

And you completely missed my point on the double standard: the standard is to dress yourself up, but the irony is that while men get fired up over more skin, with women it is the opposite, which means the equal but opposite dress standard response that girl could have given that guy would be to open his shirt, grow a beard and a moustache, for these are the things that these days repulse the average female.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

Fiannan wrote:...I would hope that we don't suddenly believe that character and morality are only centered around sex and so-called modesty. That leads to some pretty interesting spiritual/mental gymnastics of reasoning.

So baring your legs is not really immoral -- if it where why does BYU make its cheerleaders to it for audiences of hundreds of thousands? If one says it is because it is expected, then one must accept that what is appropriate to wear is cultural and not necessarily tied to scripture.
Good points. Here is something else that is interesting:
His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
I guess someone better tell Moroni to get it together before he pays a visit to BYU, or to a temple. Or for that matter, where did he come from that would allow a man to be as poorly and immorally and immodestly as he was.

Or how about this:
He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Whether you agree with the BYU policy or not, I decry the fact that today, an uncovered body in western culture always means SEX. That is not a correct, and so bizarre is the situation that now we have perverts running facebook that think a breastfeeding mother is "explicit sexuality". Yikes. We've had many kids in this house, and when breastfeeding, my wife was discreet, but not perfectly discreet if you know what I mean. She actually suffered from a bit of mastitis from time to time as payback for that discretion I'm sure. It's not natural or healthy to be covered all the time, but since we're stuck the Jewish controlled hollywood which has ascertained that all nudity is SEX, we now get every other malaise that comes with it. And now that is the only real perversion here.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

A Random Phrase wrote:If the cheerleaders break the dress code, why is there a dress code?
That is the dress code for a cheerleader, they aren't doing anything wrong. We're making progress here, let's not fight against it. Gymnasts, swimmers, and cheerleaders are all athletic events and they can and should dress appropriately.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

ithink wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:If the cheerleaders break the dress code, why is there a dress code?
That is the dress code for a cheerleader, they aren't doing anything wrong. We're making progress here, let's not fight against it. Gymnasts, swimmers, and cheerleaders are all athletic events and they can and should dress appropriately.
What I mean is, from their own point of view, the cheerleaders should be ousted. They are far less "modest" than someone wearing leggings and a dress. They are being hypocritical, imo. If an exception is being made for athletics, and the reason behind the dress code is a (I cannot think of an appropriate word for the physical reaction they assume all males will get) for the male student population, why do they think that sports automatically make that reaction null and void?

What I'm trying to do is show the hypocrisy of the code. Is the real reason behind it something other than control and blind phariseeism?

I think that there should be no "dress code" because all of these students are legal adults.

I also think that our society should go around naked for a couple of generations. That would solve the problem nicely.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by pritchet1 »

Missing the mark all over the place on this silly note. I bet nobody at the Y watches TV any longer, right? We seem to have run into the Puritan mentality. I'm so glad I only was at the Y for a year (1975-76). LDS Hypocrisy was invented there. No wonder so many leave the church after graduating from the Y. So many back then never made it through the first year, because they couldn't keep the standards either. It must be much worse today.

I figured the leggings were to keep the girl's legs from turning blue as they walked to and from campus during the cold winter months - or maybe it is intended to cover their unshaven legs! I assume they still have Tuesday morning devotionals?

I know too many stories of girls (including my sister) who's lives got messed up at the Y. I was in Provo back in the day when it was named "Happy Valley" due to all the pot being burned in the city smoke stack. Temptation is what you make of it.

This was not a modesty issue - the non-LDS LDS cover their women and girls (the ones in the polygamy camps) to hide the hose-whippings and bruise marks from beatings. Have we not learned anything from the Taliban?

When will the LDS Bookstores begin selling LDS Burkas?

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marc
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by marc »

I agree with all of patriotsaint's comments.

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Fairminded
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fairminded »

ithink wrote:
Fiannan wrote:...I would hope that we don't suddenly believe that character and morality are only centered around sex and so-called modesty. That leads to some pretty interesting spiritual/mental gymnastics of reasoning.

So baring your legs is not really immoral -- if it where why does BYU make its cheerleaders to it for audiences of hundreds of thousands? If one says it is because it is expected, then one must accept that what is appropriate to wear is cultural and not necessarily tied to scripture.
Good points. Here is something else that is interesting:
His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
I guess someone better tell Moroni to get it together before he pays a visit to BYU, or to a temple. Or for that matter, where did he come from that would allow a man to be as poorly and immorally and immodestly as he was.

Or how about this:
He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Whether you agree with the BYU policy or not, I decry the fact that today, an uncovered body in western culture always means SEX. That is not a correct, and so bizarre is the situation that now we have perverts running facebook that think a breastfeeding mother is "explicit sexuality". Yikes. We've had many kids in this house, and when breastfeeding, my wife was discreet, but not perfectly discreet if you know what I mean. She actually suffered from a bit of mastitis from time to time as payback for that discretion I'm sure. It's not natural or healthy to be covered all the time, but since we're stuck the Jewish controlled hollywood which has ascertained that all nudity is SEX, we now get every other malaise that comes with it. And now that is the only real perversion here.
Thank you. I think it's especially telling that on TV these days you can see explicit horrifying images of violence and carnage, but for the most part the only time you see someone in a state of undress there's a sexual undertone. Which is almost exactly opposite other world cultures, that are very careful about showing graphic violence but much freer about showing nonsexual nudity.

Of course viewing either violence or nudity should be avoided, but it says something interesting about Americans that our television shows would prefer to show a dismembered corpse than, say, a mother breastfeeding.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by gkearney »

A part of this issue which I have not seen, covered, if you will, is the viral aspect. Where it was once possible for a boorish young man to do something like this and perhaps only a few of the girl's friends might ever hear of it today a quick post to the Internet can circulate around the world in matter of hours. Nothing it seems from the most mundain to the most holy happens in private any longer.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

ithink wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:If the cheerleaders break the dress code, why is there a dress code?
That is the dress code for a cheerleader, they aren't doing anything wrong. We're making progress here, let's not fight against it. Gymnasts, swimmers, and cheerleaders are all athletic events and they can and should dress appropriately.
The "athletic" job for a cheerleader is to hype up the testosterone levels of the male audience, if not they would dress as they did back in the 1940s.

Sort of like when Celtic women would line the streets of a village naked and cheer on the warriors going into battle.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:Once at the testing center I was told I had to go home and shave before being allowed to test. I had shaved that morning, but had a 5 O'clock shadow by the time I went to take my test that evening. Was I a bit annoyed? Sure, but I went and shaved.
Apparently not annoyed enough though. You should have pulled out a picture of Young, Taylor, Smith, Smith or Smith, or how about Snow, and then told them you're one of the 3 Nephites, or maybe Jesus Christ, and you just failed. At least when Christ returns we'll all be able to wear beards again. After all, didn't God put that hair on my face?

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

fiannan, ithink, :ymapplause:

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

Matthew.B wrote:We young men have a hard enough time keeping our minds clean as it is in this world, and do not need to be constantly watching out in supposedly safe institutions, where young women have agreed to live a higher standard.
But that is part of the reason you can't "keep your mind clean". For example, the only time you see a woman's breast, it's probably in a hollywood movie with some sexual connotation, or in a magazine selling cosmetics or at the supermarket checkout. All that stuff is a facade. What is real, is bathing, breast feeding, and even beach activities. That stuff normalizes our perception of our own humanity, and too much "quick, run and hide, make yourself something to wear" actually incites the opposite attention that we are trying to quell.

I was skating with the family the other day and a young woman with her boyfriend appeared, and she was dressed in skin tight black tights or something. I noticed her as did my daughter, my sons (one is 3 years old, and he just kept staring at her) and everyone else in the change area not because she wore tight slacks and we were all thinking evil thoughts, but because she was just downright beautiful. Nobody could deny it, like a perfect vase, or a rose, it's the same thing. Now I just looked at that guy and smiled because what a blessing it is to have a rose by your side, and oh, the wonders of youth! But at no time did I denigrate her in my thoughts or think one thing ill of her, nor have I since because I have a perspective on such things that permit me to view beauty without getting sexual, the way a father admires beauty in his posterity -- in his daughters. Such things are not evil, and as long as we keep calling them that we'll need an ever increasing supply of Prozac and Zoloft.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4 ... 0F7XvWbJk0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The fact that we're twice the national average with something like anti-depressants begs some explanation,". No kidding.

""A few of our friends take anti-depressants just because I think we're not good enough, like we don't think we're good enough, then we turn to other things," said high-schooler Lyndsay Anderson."

"Utah's leading psychiatrists say there needs to be additional studies to solve this growing mental health mystery."

It's not mystery to me. We're fighting the fire while we're feeding the flames.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

Fiannan wrote:The "athletic" job for a cheerleader is to hype up the testosterone levels of the male audience, if not they would dress as they did back in the 1940s.

Sort of like when Celtic women would line the streets of a village naked and cheer on the warriors going into battle.
I suppose for some it is true. I attended my daughters dance performance a while back, and there were dancers on the stage that I'm sure would make the mainstream mormon squirm. I squirmed not, neither did my beautiful wife beside me. We could appreciate the beauty of the performance we saw, one in particular, where the dancer fully clothed but tightly, matched her curves with the curves of her body moving to the music. It was exhilaratingly beautiful, but not at all titillating. We commented to each other that such a performance would never fly at church or say, the BYU. So sad that in ensuring nobody is titillated, everything becomes a source for titillation when even Sister Frumpy accidentally wears a skirt 1/8" higher than she should.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

ithink, the population of the church should have your perception about the human body.

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