Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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paper face wrote:What you are essentially communicating is that no one has to be LDS. In that same spirit, I could say that it is disingenuous to teach the principle of tithing without mentioning the Honor Code and it's effect at BYU, as all LDS pay for it's continuance & implementation as a choice that should be informed. Shall I bring it up when I teach Elders quorum?
Yeah, while you're at it maybe you can research and bring up every dime spent on travel for GA's, or fancy pageants and productions, or advertisements online and on tv, or any other expense with which someone may disagree. The point is that paying tithing is an act of faith. The church is not a business and you are not a shareholder, so get over it. You don't have to agree with every tithing expenditure in order to pay, and to think that paying what the Lord requires gives you the right to criticize how it's used is arrogant. So again.....if you have that much heartburn over it....don't pay. It's you that gets to decide if it's a deal breaker for you.
paper face wrote:Whatever. Most of your arguments seem wholly unconnected to the needs of the students and the necessity of having the Honor Code in the first place. You just keep insisting that it's there. If it is such a benefit, then please gush about what it does for students that their covenants don't supply. You've already covered the benefit of mind-clearing homogeneity, so you can skip that part and get right to the good stuff.
I've already suggested a number of possible reasons why it could exist, so either you haven't read the thread or you just like to argue. I happen to perceive a number of benefits from the honor code but again if you don't, nobody will force you to attend school there. I keep repeating this, because you seem unable to grasp the simple nature of the solution here. BYU is not some despotic system of slavery students are born into and can't seem to escape. They are not victims here.
paper face wrote:The school doesn't advertise these messes that people get into regarding the code, and a legit understanding of what it means is therefore not a possibility in the cut-and-dry world that you assert.
They advertise that if you don't live up to the honor code you could face disciplinary action. It is cut and dry, but as I state below, I don't see anything wrong with additional information being offered to students on the subject.
paper face wrote:The code does exactly that. It ups the ante regarding repentance, and unnecessarily so.

Aspects of the code have nothing to do with Christ. Yet you're defending them as if they are absolutely necessary for BYU to educate our young people. I maintain that they cause far more problems than they solve, and that BYU would be fine without them. The proof is in the years the school operated prior to 1957 when the code was primarily concerned with education.
I've never claimed they are necessary. I would have been just as happy at BYU with no code as I was with a code. If you feel the code causes more problems than it solves that's fine. Since attendance at BYU is not mandatory for entrance into the celestial kingdom you should be in good shape!
paper face wrote:So what? Excuses are out there, but people still need to repent, right? BYU students included. The future of our smartest and brightest is what we are discussing here. The future of the Church. Your "sink or swim" attitude about this situation seems far more Darwinian than Christian. If you are concerned about excuses, then why provide students with a huge bureaucratic abstraction as another excuse?
I'm not providing a bureaucratic abstraction....the students themselves are. How about people accept responsibility for their own choices? For students to sign up for BYU knowing what the honor code entails and then whine that it makes life more difficult is a sign of how entrenched the entitlement mentality is (even in the church). You can't have your cake and eat it too. You keep arguing this point and choose to ignore the simplicity of the solution. Nobody should subject themselves to a program with which they disagree.
paper face wrote:While it is still in effect, I agree that prospective students should be educated with a true understanding of what the honor code means as BYU. I do not think they even remotely approach such an understanding until they are in the thick of it. The kind of presentation that one encounters at a college orientation is not nearly enough. Students should be exposed to both sides before they ever sign their name.
Now we're getting somewhere. This is something I could definitely get behind. While I personally believe that the consequences of honor code violation are virtually self-evident, I'm in no way opposed to additional information on the subject being given to prospective students. It would be far better for prospective students to realize that BYU isn't some perfect, idyllic place and might not be a good fit for them rather than get there and run into the troubles you've mentioned.
Last edited by patriotsaint on February 26th, 2012, 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Another thought I had that I wanted to share:

For those that are claiming the honor code is redundant and unnecessary because we've already made covenants that have us covered, what about the portion of BYU students that are not members of the Church? They aren't under covenant to live a higher standard, so how do we ensure they are committed to the standards BYU endorses?

Also, BYU students that are members of the church come from different backgrounds. Not all are returned missionaries that have made temple covenants, so how do we handle those students?

katers
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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bbrown wrote:Interesting discussion. From what I have observed the honor code is a sham. I causes a great deal of self righteousness, and pharasaical hypocracy. When I got home from my mission a couple friends tried to convince me to go to Provo "to meet more girls". I went down there for about three weeks to check it out. My friends were UVSC students that lived in a BYU ward. One had a goatee. The first Sunday I was there a little punk of an EQ president got up and gave a 45 minute lecture on the great evils of facial hair. It only got worse from there. (I don't have facial hair and usually have fairly short hair) I was only there for about 3 weeks and that was enough of Provo for me.

The repentance issue is a huge deal. I was a second counselor/EQ president in my YSA branch here in AK(about 10 years ago). Many of the tour companies recruit down there because they can start earlier in the season and are less likely to drink, use drugs, have moral issues. Every spring when the summer kids came up the branch presidents office had a line and we would have 1-2 disciplinary counsels a week and it would taper off once they had all been here a while. It was rare with the locals that stayed year round. They were usually trying to get what ever it was taken care of while not at school. They would be amazed the branch president wanted to help them not kick them out of school.

Fast forward to the present and it's still the same thing. I now work for one of the tour companies fixing buses, one of two year round employees here in this division, there are a few more up north. Every year we get a new crop of BYU/BYU-I students as drivers. The pharasaical hypocrisy comes out strong in many. They are terribly ignorant, and yet will lecture each other about honor code and try to enforce it on other non byu students. They especially go after the USU students and it causes a great deal of contention amongst them. At the same time they ignore basic principles of the gospel. We do see many who are genuinely good people, humble, hard working, etc. The overall culture from there at least in the cross section that I see here every year is one of coruption with a glaze of outward righteousness.

This attitude also carries on long after BYU. If you don't look the "image" in my ward you are an outcast and/or a project, to bring you into conformitiy. Case in point from ward counsel a month or so back, they are planning a youth temple trip (nearest temple is 600 mi away in Seattle, about $600 a piece just to get there and back). The question came up from the bishop (BYU alum) if this one boy should be allowed to go because he has long hair. The YM president (old school BYU) piped in and said this kid actually knew how to pray, and did so with sincerity and thought unlike his peers, he kenw the scriptures and was head and shoulders above the rest of the group. There were no other worthyness issues. He has a terrible home life, the mom has been married at least 2 times in the 6 years she's been a member and numerous boyfriends, who knows how many before, and his long hair is to him some kind of conection to his real dad who has a similar haircut. It is kept neat and clean unlike most of his peers who have shorter but very shaggy hair. The YM pres then voiced his disapproval of long hair and thought that it was kind of iffy letting him go, but maybe it would be ok. There was about ten min discussion on this and it was reluctantly decided he should be allowed to go. I frankly was floored by it, as if the Lord could care less if you have short or long hair.

I would have to agree the honor code is all about image. In my observations it does not promote but discourages humility and meekness, and creates a false sense of superiority.
I for one get tired of this attitude. There are people who "get it" and don't in and outside the church and in and outside of Utah. There are people who handle situations appropriately and those who are insensitive everywhere. It's not an anomaly unique to Utah or Provo specifically. I have been appalled at the way I have been treated by fellow members of the church outside of Utah just for being from here...without knowing anything else about me or having any reason to be upset with me. I've been mocked and had every generalization about this place applied to me without reason. People have faults. Plain and simple. It's not so easily blamed on one place or one institution.

The fact is, BYU is a private institution. They have standards and there has to be a way to be accountable for those standards. All of you who keep throwing out that people need to be left to "govern themselves" really just mean that people should be able to do whatever they want. And the fact is to have the privilege of attending a private school one has to be willing to abide by the standards that make it different. This is not unique to BYU.....it may be manifest in a different way, but it is not a foreign concept. The honor code is really not that restrictive. It's a few simple dress and grooming standards that really aren't all that strict and a code of morality. I as a student attended both BYU and UVU and I can tell you from experience that I for one preferred the environment at BYU. I preferred the higher standard and I appreciated being around people that lived up to it. Students have options. And they are informed. If you don't read the honor code before you sign it, that's your own problem. It's a contract that no one is forced to live, and it is given completely in writing. If by college age one hasn't learned how to read a document before signing it, I don't feel sorry for them. Yeah, sink or swim. You're an adult. The honor code is not intended to be oppressive, but to give students an environment that will ultimately help them in their progression, spiritually as well as academically.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

The honor code is not intended to be oppressive, but to give students an environment that will ultimately help them in their progression, spiritually as well as academically.
I am not sure one's spirituality is enhanced by conformity to a certain dress code. Isaiah was spiritual but spent a great deal of time preaching in the nude, the apostles fished naked, I think it is safe to assume that Ester complied with the demands of her husband who demanded to show his previous wife off naked to guests at his parties; and when King David didn't take notice while he was dancing that his equipment was in view of his guests when he was celebrating a military victory his wife was recorded as the one who was sinning when she chastised him for his exposing himself.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Admitting non-members and actively recruiting them for a competitive edge are two different things. If someone wants to participate with BYU, I say fine. Let them participate with full freedom to live according to their own dictates. Ask that they respect the religion that is the source of the school, and trust them. When you begin with distrust and skepticism, the result is almost always resentment and/or apathy. Subject them to the influences of a student body that are being trusted in full faith to live their covenants, and watch what happens. Require that they take some religious courses so that they can participate in the ideology from the periphery.

We want these people to experience miracles as a result of their experiences at BYU, right? We want them to convert to the Church, correct? Then trust them. Let them dress how they want around other young people that you trust, and give them time to make better choices. Let LDS culture sink into them. Don't subject them to a police culture of Stasi informants. Miracles follow faith, not force.

To dangle a football/basketball scholarship in front of non-member 17-year-olds and then demand that they participate in a cosmetic PR program once they agree is not a recipe for setting up young people to succeed. It’s a bureaucratic apparatus that demands that these individuals re-code themselves as agents of the BYU brand. No wonder the school has a new scandal almost every year in this regard.

Only member atheletes should be actively recruited. If non-member athletes or scholars are interested in the school, fine. They probably know what they are getting into by virtue of their interest in the first place.

If there are morality-related consequences to allowing non-member enrollment, then take care of the LDS side of things by turning it over to the bishops only. The LDS party still has to repent, and this is still an opportunity to share the Gospel. Have the bishop pay a visit to the non-member and explain in full the repentance process that the LDS party has to go through as a result of incidents, and then levy absolutely zero consequences on the non-member. Just tell them what it means, and invite them again to respect the culture out of which the school is born. Then just watch what happens. By not holding them responsible for covenants that they never entered into in the first place, they will still have to witness their significant other go through the repentance process. Their inquiries concerning those covenants will grow. More often than not, such individuals would commence policing themselves in the absence of any threats by the administration. Only the absolutely vacant would respond otherwise.

If two non-members have sex while attending the school, then mind your own business. The rules regarding different sexes not entering each others' rooms are still a good part of the code, and thus the sex will not typically occur in dorms or BYU housing any more than it already does currently. Since it is understood that non-members aren't under any covenant, they can be told openly about the basics of the covenants and asked by agents of the school to treat their Mormon counterparts with respect regarding such issues and to keep it out of the house.

The monsters that everyone is afraid of would ostracize themselves on a campus where any underground subcultures have relatively few administrative policies to rage against. The ‘Korihors’ of the world would look ridiculous at that kind of BYU, whereas now they rule the underground with god-like status and influence…. because of the HC. The Korihors at BYU are veritable magnets to those who feel shoved and coerced by an administration that appears more concerned with appearances than with education. The Honor Code gives them all the power & ammo they need to take what they want because of their understanding of punk ethic.

For members the effects of an extra law is worse than some of you are willing to admit. When you categorically disregard the ability of the majority to uphold their covenants with God right out of the gate, and lasso their testimonies into branding, you can’t help but harm faith.

The BYU honor code isn’t about impressing God. It’s about impressing the world. The Dialogue article posted above is pretty compelling evidence of this. It also shows that I was wrong with my 1957 date, as much of Wilkinson's changes that are pertinent to the discussion occurred later in the '60s. Which makes perfect sense when you see what was going on in our country at the time.

A better link for the article: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/archive/?pn=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; then scroll down to vol. 31 number 4.

It is important to grasp the kind of personality that Ernest was, the period he operated in, and what his ideology was leading up to the changes. He literally hunted down hundreds of students that he didn't think looked the part at BYU, and removed their ability to re-enroll. Control was a way of life for this guy, and it is his legacy that the current crop of BYU students are living with.

Another good source for understanding him is the book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Paperface,

I would actually enjoy attending the type of BYU that you describe. The only question I have for you would be, why doesn't this type of uplifting culture already exist at other universities in Utah that have a predominantly LDS student body, but without the honor code? UVU and USU both have a large LDS population in the student body, but in my personal experience neither school was more conducive to gospel learning or feeling the spirit than BYU. I have spent much more time on UVU's campus than at USU, but again....there was nothing that made either school feel particularly righteous or spiritual to me.

Is the only real difference between BYU and these other schools the fact that they have prayer before class and a weekly devotional, or is there something else? I'm not saying it's the honor code, but I'm trying to put my finger on the reason why the type of culture you describe doesn't exist (in my view) at other schools with a large LDS student body, but without the honor code restrictions.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Thank you PatriotSaint... I have wondered the same about U of U and USU....
patriotsaint wrote:Paperface,

I would actually enjoy attending the type of BYU that you describe. The only question I have for you would be, why doesn't this type of uplifting culture already exist at other universities in Utah that have a predominantly LDS student body, but without the honor code? UVU and USU both have a large LDS population in the student body, but in my personal experience neither school was more conducive to gospel learning or feeling the spirit than BYU. I have spent much more time on UVU's campus than at USU, but again....there was nothing that made either school feel particularly righteous or spiritual to me.

Is the only real difference between BYU and these other schools the fact that they have prayer before class and a weekly devotional, or is there something else? I'm not saying it's the honor code, but I'm trying to put my finger on the reason why the type of culture you describe doesn't exist (in my view) at other schools with a large LDS student body, but without the honor code restrictions.

natasha
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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I believe the answer to your question, Heiro, is quite simply because UVU and USU are STATE operated universities whereas BYU is privately owned. If UVU or USU tried to implement such things as the honor code, prayer in class, etc...there would be tons of lawsuits.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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natasha wrote:I believe the answer to your question, Heiro, is quite simply because UVU and USU are STATE operated universities whereas BYU is privately owned. If UVU or USU tried to implement such things as the honor code, prayer in class, etc...there would be tons of lawsuits.
+1. That's the diff.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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natasha wrote:I believe the answer to your question, Heiro, is quite simply because UVU and USU are STATE operated universities whereas BYU is privately owned. If UVU or USU tried to implement such things as the honor code, prayer in class, etc...there would be tons of lawsuits.
Exactly right. It doesn't matter if LDS students dominate a student body. On a fundamental level, state schools are built by and for a counterfeit hierarchy of priestly authority. As Hugh Nibley pointed out, they wear the robes and caps to prove it. Hence, the principles the school stands for are held above those that the students stand for, and even above that of a school president who happens to be LDS. All must bow to what the state, and ultimately the world, considers an appropriate educational environment. The results are moral decay, and it is rampant.

At BYU we still have the opportunity to build education upon eternal principles. But to do this you have to trust students and professors to live up to their covenants in the first place. Having them sign their name to an appearance code at registration curtails the entire opportunity because their covenants (baptismal or temple) are relegated to the status of a subtext to an effort that is explicitly cosmetic and invasive.

If you remove the training wheels, you will be surprised at how the majority stick close to the iron rod. But requiring the wheels communicates that you don't think much of their abilities to ride at all. It is fine to manage kids closely while they live at home. Training is vital, all the way up to high school. But these aren't high school kids. It is just as vital to offer them trust and latitude once they begin to be on their own.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

natasha wrote:I believe the answer to your question, Heiro, is quite simply because UVU and USU are STATE operated universities whereas BYU is privately owned. If UVU or USU tried to implement such things as the honor code, prayer in class, etc...there would be tons of lawsuits.
Actually I was referring to the moral climate at those state schools in Utah, where the majority of students are LDS (at least raised LDS). Thing like the noted beer showers at USU-BYU football games, where BYU fans had to bring umbrellas to avoid getting drenched by rowdy fans, the various greek fraternities/sororities and their problems, etc.

As for BYU recruiting athletes, because of the rape/group sex scandals that occurred during the Gary Crowton years (2000-2004), the BYU athletic AD Tom Holmoe, and football coach Bronco Mendenhall had to institute very strict practices so that all non-member athletes (and even the LDS ones) would clearly understand that in no uncertain terms "You will either live these standards fully or not come here at all - no gray area, no leeway because you are an athlete". For awhile, Bronco recruited only RMs, or at least only active LDS. And the image of BYU (AND the LDS Church) was repaired.

Yes, the image that BYU and it's students present is closely associated with the image that the world has of the LDS Church (just as the image of missionaries is as well). As I guarantee you that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have a major interest in that (and by extension, the Lord whom they represent).

Another factor is that parents want to believe that their kids are going to a safe environment (versus a worldly/party school). Are many BYU students/alums insufferable? YES - but that has more to do with living/growing up in Utah, where they are likely not exposed to other viewpoints/not in a distinct minority and have to work to get along with others who are different.

It doesn't help when the media talks about the "Holy War" between BYU - Utah in football, or The Lord' University vs that godless institution to the north (U of U).

BYU is NOT the Lord's University. He has 136 of those, with another 30 announced or under construction - and they tend to have a statue of the angel Moroni atop a spire...

BYU students are not perfect - you can find almost any sin you want there (except maybe overt Satanism) - you may just have to work a bit harder to find it than you would at say San Diego State University, Florida, Berkeley, or Yale.

My home teaching comp. has a buddy who is a Gyn at BYU. He told me that his buddy told him (yes it's hearsay), that of the single BYU coeds that he examines, more than half are NOT virgins, AND the vast majority have been sexually active very recently. While the Honor Code dress standards may camouflage some signs of these students' immorality, the bigger problem is that they either never had a testimony, are saturated with the worldly media sexual images/attitudes, and/or frankly just couldn't wait to get out of their parents' house so they could mess around (lied to parents/Bishops, etc). In 2007, in my ex-wife's stake conference, it was announced that in Utah County alone: 50% of the youth 18-25 had fallen away from the Church (mainly into Sex and/or alcohol/WofW issues). This is NOT counting those who were not LDS to begin with, or in long-term inactive families.

Similarly: in fall 2000, Hartman Rector jr told my family that for every non-member youth baptized into the Church (USA & Canada), the Church loses 9 priests.

The Honor Code is NOT the problem. If anything, the fact that there are restrictions is enough to help some students remember who they are, covenants they made, and choose not to sin - even if it is for fear of being caught. The same goes for ALL laws actually.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Thinker »

ithink wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!
Nudity is like money: it's not the nudity that's the problem, it's the inequality that makes is so wrong! :-o
=)) Thanks, I needed a laugh.

Fiannan
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

In 2007, in my ex-wife's stake conference, it was announced that in Utah County alone: 50% of the youth 18-25 had fallen away from the Church (mainly into Sex and/or alcohol/WofW issues). This is NOT counting those who were not LDS to begin with, or in long-term inactive families.
If this is indeed true, then maybe an examination of what would revitalize these youth is in order. After all, since the Church has sort of backed down on birth control (well, depending on what source one wants to consult) we should see less children born into the Church and if we lose 50% that is not a good long-term situation.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

If you never arm teenagers & young people with the truth, they will never have a solid sense of the sacred to fall back on.

Charles Bukowski and countless others have essentially said that the body is a profane playground for lusts and the ego. Jesus said that the body is a temple. Who is winning this info war regarding the body?

If you simply take Jesus words literally, you will save hundreds of thousands of young people from fornicating. Perhaps millions. Taking the term "temple" and applying it literally means that the womb is a veil. So for the love of all that is holy, don't just tell your daughters that their bodies are temples. Go further and inform them that they carry a veil. Empower these young women with something that is far more powerful than any form of feminism that they will encounter.

And furthermore, tell your sons that fornication is like unto desecrating the veil in the temple. Because even if none of the brethren have ever said so, Christ's words make it true.

This is one truth, this logical follow through on Christ's claim, could save and heal millions if we would only see it and implement it. It cuts through all of the profanity and garbage that our young people are mesmerized with in media and entertainment, it exposes pornography for what it is, and it would give them a clear, definable reason why they should respect the womb instead of all of the inadequate abstractions we give them instead.

Arm them with the truth. Don't presume to control them with some imperfect code. The truth will transform their lives & lead them into Heaven. The code will make them robotic or fill them with doubts. Why? Because it never even pretends to answer any real questions.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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paperface, 1+

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

Thinker wrote:
ithink wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!
Nudity is like money: it's not the nudity that's the problem, it's the inequality that makes is so wrong! :-o
=)) Thanks, I needed a laugh.
Are there some individuals on this forum somehow revealing their true colors when not sitting in a congregation pretending to be a follower of Christ? In the truest sense, it isn't anyone else but our Savior we should be looking to and emulating. Christ was sinless. Every one else, including the Prophet, has sinned sometime in their life. President Monson looks to the Savior for redemption, as should we. Does anyone really believe that Christ made wisecracks about the equality of men's privates, including in a nudest setting?

Have your laughs and then read these scriptures. There are many, many more as well. Even a dress code won't save anybody, because the inner vessel may be corrupt.

Alma 60:23
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

Alma 5:15
15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

Mosiah 18:21
21 And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.

Mosiah 15:11
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

Alma 13:12
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

Alma 34:36
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

Alma 5:27
27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

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