Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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freedomforall
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place?
Answer...God, when he gave fig leaves to Adam and Eve. But when one thinks about it, Adam and Eve wandered around the Garden for who knows how long naked, prior to their partaking of the forbidden fruit, and God would have seen them in that naked state for all that time. So nakedness must not have been an issue until after their fall. That's when our carnal natures showed up. I mean, why else did God reduce the population down to only eight people?

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote:
I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.
True, but women in Joseph Smith's time also wore no bras and never shaved their legs or underarms. Does that mean we need to return to those habits in the Church today?
Not unless we want a bouquet of hairy armpits.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:
ithink wrote:Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place?
Answer...God, when he gave fig leaves to Adam and Eve. But when one thinks about it, Adam and Eve wandered around the Garden for who knows how long naked, prior to their partaking of the forbidden fruit, and God would have seen them in that naked state for all that time. So nakedness must not have been an issue until after their fall. That's when our carnal natures showed up. I mean, why else did God reduce the population down to only eight people?
Right, it's a carnal thing, but sorry, but it was Satan that suggested it in the first place, and note that while Satan was there and they were naked, they weren't ashamed yet, until he suggested it.

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paper face
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

Bravo, ithink.

I would add that the "Lord's school" should reflect the Lord's values, and the number one thing that the Lord values is autonomy. It is the first and most sacred thing that we know Jehovah stood for in the war in Heaven, and it was the other guy who was interested in control.

Most of the students are already under covenant. Why compel them take on a redundant law that has nothing to do with their salvation? It is a redundancy that patronizes large numbers of our most bright and faithful members. It also turns many into terrorists for one side of the argument or the other. Individuals who never swore, drank alcohol, vandalized, or subverted authority suddenly have impetus to do so when they arrive in Provo. Others act like the SS in their support of the code, and rat out their friends/roommates because they conflate the code with the Gospel. Either way, these reactions create a polarized environment at the school that is much more volatile than is generally understood.

I went to UVU and I had a friend at BYU who had a bad experience dealing with the HC office. He ended up delaying his repentance because his bishop was known for being a hard liner when it came to notifying the school. There are literally thousands of good kids in this situation at BYU. For many the code takes repentance away from being an "act of faith" and places it in the realm of "calculated risk". It is a very corporatized recontextualization of the issues surrounding the repentance process, and I know of many graduates that are disillusioned with the Church as a result.

Those of you who rely on the argument that "students know what they are getting into" have a point, but the argument doesn't address the questions about why the code is valuable or necessary. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply trust these young people to live up to their covenants?

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

In the 1960's when the hippies were taking over campuses nationwide, the First Presidency and Apostles wanted BYU and students to stand remarkably distinct from the rest of the world- to be a light on the hill. They still want BYU to have high standards:modesty, purity, clean cut, etc.

Even if all byu students voted away the honor codethe vhur

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Even if all byu students voted away the honor code, the church leadership would never allow it. The world knows BYU as that clean cut pure students place (jokes about stone cold sober aside), and reflects on the perception of the church. Beards since 1950's have been seen as rebellion or worldliness.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Final thought:
The idea that there shouldn't be a standard because one may be more comitted to gospel makes as much sense as removing minimum age limits for driver's licenses because your 12 year old son is more behaved than his 7th grade friends.

katers
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by katers »

Paperface I think it is silly to blame the HC office or any bishop for a young man's decision not to come forth in repentance. Students at BYU are well informed of the risks associated with behaviors in contradiction to the honor code. To commit any act in violation and then whine when punished for it is absurd. Bishops are given stewardship and it is a call from the Lord. Bravo to that bishop for taking it seriously. If one isn't ready to own up, that is their own fault. Not that of any "hard nosed" bishop or honor code that the student signed and agreed to upon admission to BYU.

Yes, the Lord values autonomy and agency, but he has always set forth laws and commandments as well. We are given the choice whether or not to obey them and reap the blessings associated or not and reap the consequences.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

Aren't there a lot of hair splitting going on here? Look, a girl can wear a nice, modest outfit and there will always be some guy that can let his imagination run wild, right? And there are guys that keep their desires/temptations under check, even if a girl wears a skirt above the knee. There are, I'm sure, some boys at BYU that secretly look at porno, or they have wild erotic imaginings at night, whatever. Their minds are corrupted and they seek anything that will give them a turn on.

Then there are those of whom strive to keep pure thoughts and are not so easily tossed to and fro. These are those that have more control over their mind, perhaps because they haven't corrupted their mind with smut.

However, It is not right for women to purposely wear provocative clothing and expect every guy to act saintly. Females should be just as saintly by being modest. In today's world, guys striving to be saintly are being tempted from all sides from, TV, movies, peers, public places and, yes, fitness facilities.

A dress code has its purpose.

And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!
Nudity is like money: it's not the nudity that's the problem, it's the inequality that makes is so wrong! :-o

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paper face
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

katers wrote:Paperface I think it is silly to blame the HC office or any bishop for a young man's decision not to come forth in repentance. Students at BYU are well informed of the risks associated with behaviors in contradiction to the honor code. To commit any act in violation and then whine when punished for it is absurd. Bishops are given stewardship and it is a call from the Lord. Bravo to that bishop for taking it seriously. If one isn't ready to own up, that is their own fault. Not that of any "hard nosed" bishop or honor code that the student signed and agreed to upon admission to BYU.

Yes, the Lord values autonomy and agency, but he has always set forth laws and commandments as well. We are given the choice whether or not to obey them and reap the blessings associated or not and reap the consequences.
All of the laws instituted by Christ are moral. Controlling dress and appearance is not about impressing God. It's about impressing the world with an image. God is no respecter of persons, but BYU very much is. If the school administrators were really concerned about the welfare of the students, they would extend to them a measure of faith and trust instead of forcing them into a code just to attend the school.

As I stated before, the majority of students at BYU are already living a set of laws. What the HC does is communicate that their covenants & other qualifications aren't good enough. The code is intended to control behavior, but what it also does is program students so that they become agents of the BYU brand. Do you think that God intended such a code to be an integral part of a school subsidized by tithing money? I don't. I think it's the product of an overzealous student body from an earlier era that has become the bureaucratic Big Brother to a cohort that has had no say in its implementation.

I know a bishop that piped up in a large leadership meeting with a Seventy about the issue of confidentiality. He didn't feel right about turning in the sinners in his YSA ward to the HC office. The seventy asked if there were any other bishops in the meeting that felt the same way, and he estimated that half of them raised their hands. The seventy avoided pushing the issue in that particular meeting, but this double standard is a reality in Provo. Thousands will sin at BYU, but not all of them will have their education put at risk over it.

The fact of the matter is that students know which bishops will share their private info with the school, and which ones won't. So not only does the code complicate repentance for students, but it also drags some leaders into gray areas over the issue of obedience vs. confidentiality.

The years students spend at BYU are some of the most vital in their lives. If they sin, they should be afforded a repentance process that is unclouded by any other consideration. To dismiss such in favor of maintaining an unnecessary code is to put the BYU brand above the welfare of the students themselves.

katers
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by katers »

To say that the honor code is about anything other than morality is silly. It's not about control, it's about maintaining a standard. You can call it an image or a brand, but those are just loaded terms. Do I think that God would support it? Yes. We don't get into the temple without living certain standards, why should we get into a church sponsored school without doing so either? It's not a perfect system, (referring to the school, not the temple) but COME ON folks....there has to be some way of accounting for things.

And again....students are well aware of the risks of violating the honor code. To say that they should then not be held accountable for doing so is the kind of attitude that has created the overall "gimmee" attitude that most young people have today. You don't want to put your education in jeopardy? Don't violate the rules. As a parent I would have absolutely NO sympathy for my child if they had an attitude like that. It's not the school's fault you chose to violate the rules you agreed to obey. In writing. Repentance shouldn't be conditional on how much trouble you're going to get into.

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7cylon7
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by 7cylon7 »

The guy that gave that girl the note was a complete and utter moron! What more needs to be said. I ignore morons for the most part.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Zowieink »

These are all interesting comments. I've read all 4 pages of people's opinions. So I'll add one more. What ever happened to "teaching correct principals and letting them (members) govern themselves"? BYU underneath its sqeeky clean exterior does have a rather large problem with sin (and I'm not talking about dress code sin). It might be better if all the sisters were to wear burkas (women covered in black with only their eyes showing).

I think standards are great and should be there. But to kick a student out because the skirt is an 1" to high, fooey! For my part, I think the student was VERY modestly dressed. Since I work in the Mesa temple at one of the recommend desks, I have seen some very interesting clothing being worn by temple worthy people. This student was on the far end of modesty as compared to them (dresses to short, to low cut and showing way to much you know what, sleeveless (they tuck their garments in),or wedding dresses (we had one show up strapless!), etc. Men sometimes are just as bad. We had a couple last summer that came in shorts! and not long shorts! We are not allowed to comment or say anything about what people wear, but we are taught modesty in dress when we go through the temple.

So....why not the same at BYU? Establish the standards, teach them correctly and let them govern themselves (without any heavy penalties)! The same with sin. I agree with those Bishops in not turning people in. Its interesting how the Church establishes is rules for employees and temple workers (not the commandments that come from revelation). If one person violates the norm then all the other innocents must suffer as a "new" rule is put in place. Kinda like the Harry Potter movie where the lady in pink has so many rules nailed on the wall, and they eventually fall down (the students rebelled) and she looses control.

I really can't see the Savior when He returns in glory at the 2nd coming rejecting or critizing people because of the way they are dressed. So again. Establish the basic rules and let the students govern themselves.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

katers wrote:You can call it an image or a brand, but those are just loaded terms.
The term that is loaded is code. And it is the school that is implementing it.
Do I think that God would support it? Yes. We don't get into the temple without living certain standards, why should we get into a church sponsored school without doing so either?
Your comparison is folly. BYU isn't the temple. The students are already living up to certain standards by way of their being accepted in the first place. The Honor Code is something extra and is absolutely concerned with image & control. Administrators and agents of the school are able to say that those who violate the code are "not tolerated" as a selling point. Those that love the code love the image that we are discussing, and that is the image of a non-offensive looking group of Molly Mo's and Peter P's that make the school look righteous to outsiders. This is precisely what the BYU brand is intended to infer, and to say that the term is "loaded" is just a refusal to address the issues at hand of a system that you admit to be imperfect.

Bishops "account for things". Why do you need something in addition to the Priesthood of God? It was Satan that wanted us to come down here and be a bunch of meat puppets. That was his scheme for bringing everyone back to Heaven. How strange that the "Lord's school" would adopt his methodology to any degree. I don't think it is from God at all. The fact that it didn't come from revelation supports my argument.

Your repeated points about the code being a fact of the school is not useful to the discussion. We're arguing the code's value, not its existence.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

Zowieink wrote:So....why not the same at BYU? Establish the standards, teach them correctly and let them govern themselves (without any heavy penalties)! The same with sin. I agree with those Bishops in not turning people in. Its interesting how the Church establishes is rules for employees and temple workers (not the commandments that come from revelation). If one person violates the norm then all the other innocents must suffer as a "new" rule is put in place.
It is the incremental abuses of power that lead institutions and people down Lucifer's path of control. Control tastes sweet to those who exert it because it creates the illusion of righteousness. But the end of the process is a bunch of programmed androids & clones.

Christ didn't want to present a bunch of clones to God. Which is precisely why he fought for autonomy. He knows that people who choose to obey on their own are legitimately faithful. Those who are coerced by other means are more robotic in their faith.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

7cylon7 wrote:The guy that gave that girl the note was a complete and utter moron! What more needs to be said. I ignore morons for the most part.
Personally I think we will be hearing more of this guy on a future program on "The Crime and Investigation Network."

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

Zowieink wrote:These are all interesting comments. I've read all 4 pages of people's opinions. So I'll add one more. What ever happened to "teaching correct principals and letting them (members) govern themselves"? BYU underneath its sqeeky clean exterior does have a rather large problem with sin (and I'm not talking about dress code sin). It might be better if all the sisters were to wear burkas (women covered in black with only their eyes showing).

I think standards are great and should be there. But to kick a student out because the skirt is an 1" to high, fooey! For my part, I think the student was VERY modestly dressed. Since I work in the Mesa temple at one of the recommend desks, I have seen some very interesting clothing being worn by temple worthy people. This student was on the far end of modesty as compared to them (dresses to short, to low cut and showing way to much you know what, sleeveless (they tuck their garments in),or wedding dresses (we had one show up strapless!), etc. Men sometimes are just as bad. We had a couple last summer that came in shorts! and not long shorts! We are not allowed to comment or say anything about what people wear, but we are taught modesty in dress when we go through the temple.

So....why not the same at BYU? Establish the standards, teach them correctly and let them govern themselves (without any heavy penalties)! The same with sin. I agree with those Bishops in not turning people in. Its interesting how the Church establishes is rules for employees and temple workers (not the commandments that come from revelation). If one person violates the norm then all the other innocents must suffer as a "new" rule is put in place. Kinda like the Harry Potter movie where the lady in pink has so many rules nailed on the wall, and they eventually fall down (the students rebelled) and she looses control.

I really can't see the Savior when He returns in glory at the 2nd coming rejecting or critizing people because of the way they are dressed. So again. Establish the basic rules and let the students govern themselves.
See http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 2&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; towards the bottom

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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paper face wrote:Your repeated points about the code being a fact of the school is not useful to the discussion. We're arguing the code's value, not its existence.
If one doesn't see the value in the honor code, one is free to attend school elsewhere. Nobody is requiring you or any other member of the Church to live the honor code, so I don't see what the problem is. Just because YOU don't see any value in it doesn't mean that nobody else does.

Unlike you, I attended BYU and can speak from personal experience. I enjoyed being in an environment where standards in dress and grooming helped me avoid distractions and focus on the important stuff. In that respect attending BYU is like participating in the temple or in full time missionary service. Dress and grooming in all these instances is quite homogeneous, but those who participate voluntarily elect to adhere temporarily to a stricter standard. This strict standard isn't meant to be permanent, but I feel it helps the participants focus on things other than appearance. I'm sure others will argue that the honor code puts the focus on appearance, but I don't see it that way. I see it like uniforms at a private school. Whether on a mission, in the temple, at a private charter school or at BYU, standards in dress help take the focus off of appearance.

I also think your arguments about repentance being difficult for BYU students are laughable. In nearly six years at the school I couldn't have told you which Bishops were strict and which were lenient. The fact of the matter is that repentance is difficult, and some use their eligibility for school as an excuse not to go through the process. That however, is not the school's fault. Those that attend BYU know what they are signing up for. If you don't want your school eligibility to be tied to your moral/religious behavior GO SOMEPLACE ELSE!

Do you know who the chairman of the board of trustees for BYU is? It's president Monson himself. I'm sure that if he believed the honor code was a problem at BYU he could have it removed. The fact that no prophet as chairmen of the board has suggested such a move should give all you critics of the honor code pause. Was the code given by revelation? I honestly have no idea (the answer is obviously no in canonized scripture), but does that mean it couldn't have been recieved by revelation by one having stewardship over BYU? I'll give the chairman of the board the benefit of the doubt on this one. After all, there is nothing in standard works about missionary or temple dress and grooming standards either.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by WhereCanITurn4Peace »

UPDATE:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... g-gig.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

patriotsaint wrote:If one doesn't see the value in the honor code, one is free to attend school elsewhere.
Yeah. Everyone has to pay for it, but no one has to go. Despite this robotic mantra, thousands of teens are expected to go to BYU as a matter of tradition and finances. When you add in the subsidized cost of tuition, it's easy to see how these expectations can grow into a subculture that doesn't leave much choice for some. But honestly... there aren't any parents who tell their kids that they have to go to BYU, are there?
patriotsaint wrote:This strict standard isn't meant to be permanent, but I feel it helps the participants focus on things other than appearance. I'm sure others will argue that the honor code puts the focus on appearance, but I don't see it that way. I see it like uniforms at a private school.
I will definitely agree that the word uniform is appropriate.

You really believe that the code helps shift focus away from appearance? I think that's a little out of touch. The news item in question refutes that notion. Not only are students still willing to flout the code, but there is also a set of students who see it as their duty to police others.

A code that dictates dress and an essentially 1960's aesthetic seems to be more about Ernest L. Wilkinsen and his overzealous hand than anything resembling Christianity. It sounds like you went to the school after his tenure, and thus the Honor Code was just a fact of the school you signed up for. He's the guy that expanded a code (in 1957) that originally was concerned with academic honesty and educational issues. His changes were concerned with dress, grooming, alcohol, drugs, & chastity.

So the same guy that came up with the idea of hiring students to spy on professors in the 60s is the guy that decided that beards were no longer associated with righteousness. Call it a reaction to the counter culture of the period, call it the David O. McKay effect, or deem it a "revelation". Nobody knows for sure.

Christ's school should reflect the fact that Christianity is concerned with the heart. Portions of the code basically tell the students that appearance is the true indicator of where their hearts are. IMO, that's rubbish.
I also think your arguments about repentance being difficult for BYU students are laughable. In nearly six years at the school I couldn't have told you which Bishops were strict and which were lenient.
You probably never committed any serious sins while you were attending. Because if you had you probably wouldn't make use of the term "laughable". The Honor Code changes the game for a great many people whether that was your experience or not. I've watched several friends deal with the Honor Code, and the stories are not faith promoting.

The same bishop that told me of the meeting with the seventy served during the 2000's and he told me that probably a third of his YSA ward he served had a serious morality issues. And those were just the ones who had confessed. Students now are far more in the know about these issues and far more aware of what happens to those who get kicked out than you apparently were.

In truth, adding one's ecclesiastic status to the mix complicates the issue of repentance at BYU far more than you are willing to admit. It creates a conflict of interests. See this link for further evidence: http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/11/10/s ... re-at-byu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The fact of the matter is that repentance is difficult, and some use their eligibility for school as an excuse not to go through the process.
A more accurate statement would be: The fact of the matter is that repentance is difficult enough as it is, and there is no need to add the pressure & complication of an additional code that imperils one's education/employment on top of everything else.
Do you know who the chairman of the board of trustees for BYU is? It's president Monson himself. I'm sure that if he believed the honor code was a problem at BYU he could have it removed. The fact that no prophet as chairmen of the board has suggested such a move should give all you critics of the honor code pause.
It doesn't give me any pause at all because Lehi's principle of opposition extends to all things. Prophets do not always make the right decision, and in the case of the Honor Code they didn't make the decision in the first place. Monson may love the code for all we know, but as with you it may be as much a matter of personality as anything else. Either way, he and the other GAs are dealing with an inherited system and doing the best they can with it. I'm not going to pretend that they always get it right. The available histories on Smith, Young, Woodruff, McKay, Lee, Benson, Hinkley, and countless other GAs suggest otherwise. Which is precisely how it should be.
Was the code given by revelation? I honestly have no idea (the answer is obviously no in canonized scripture), but does that mean it couldn't have been recieved by revelation by one having stewardship over BYU? I'll give the chairman of the board the benefit of the doubt on this one.
The history is available:

Brigham Young University: A House of Faith by Bergera & Pridis
The Lord's University: Freedom and Authority at BYU by Waterman & Kagel

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by patriotsaint »

paper face wrote:Yeah. Everyone has to pay for it, but no one has to go. Despite this robotic mantra, thousands of teens are expected to go to BYU as a matter of tradition and finances. When you add in the subsidized cost of tuition, it's easy to see how these expectations can grow into a subculture that doesn't leave much choice for some. But honestly... there aren't any parents who tell their kids that they have to go to BYU, are there?
Nobody has to pay for it. Those that don't have faith the tithing money subsidizing BYU is being used appropriately, can always stop paying. Everyone has a choice, even if it's a dramatic one. I guess those that dislike the code need to decide if their feelings about BYU are more important than paying a full tithe?

As far as expectations or traditions...pure speculation on your part. These are adults and they can attend college where they wish. Nobody has to go to BYU, and no spin-doctoring on your part changes that fact. I worked while I attended school and paid my own way. By the time someone reaches college age they should be able to live their lives without having to rely on mommy and daddy for everything. If one is short on funds...pursue a scholarship or attend a less pricey institution. There are options out there.
paper face wrote:You probably never committed any serious sins while you were attending. Because if you had you probably wouldn't make use of the term "laughable". The Honor Code changes the game for a great many people whether that was your experience or not. I've watched several friends deal with the Honor Code, and the stories are not faith promoting.

The same bishop that told me of the meeting with the seventy served during the 2000's and he told me that probably a third of his YSA ward he served had a serious morality issues. And those were just the ones who had confessed. Students now are far more in the know about these issues and far more aware of what happens to those who get kicked out than you apparently were.

In truth, adding one's ecclesiastic status to the mix complicates the issue of repentance at BYU far more than you are willing to admit. It creates a conflict of interests. See this link for further evidence: http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/11/10/s ... re-at-byu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Laughable was a poor word to use and I apologize for that. As to the rest of your argument, the honor code only changes the game for those who elect to live under it. Nobody else is responsible for our choices, whether it be our choice to sin, or our choice of university.
paper face wrote:A more accurate statement would be: The fact of the matter is that repentance is difficult enough as it is, and there is no need to add the pressure & complication of an additional code that imperils one's education/employment on top of everything else.
Again, the school and the church aren't making repentance more difficult. The students themselves are making it more difficult by electing to attend a university where their moral behavior is directly tied to their eligibility. Repentance is rarely, if ever convenient in my experience. Whether it is the BYU student who is suspended,the missionary who is sent home dishonorably, or the man who is excommunicated for adultery, the repentance process is tough.....and one looking for excuses to keep sin hidden due to professional, educational, social or familial concerns will always find one.

paper face wrote:Prophets do not always make the right decision, and in the case of the Honor Code they didn't make the decision in the first place. Monson may love the code for all we know, but as with you it may be as much a matter of personality as anything else. Either way, he and the other GAs are dealing with an inherited system and doing the best they can with it. I'm not going to pretend that they always get it right. The available histories on Smith, Young, Woodruff, McKay, Lee, Benson, Hinkley, and countless other GAs suggest otherwise. Which is precisely how it should be.
While one prophet may not get something right, I have a hard time believing that generations of them don't, but this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary. In the end I think molehills are made into mountains when it comes to the honor code. While BYU is a decent school, it isn't right for everyone...and that's not a bad thing. Those that choose to go there should go with the understanding of what the expectations are and then be willing live up to those expectations or deal with the consequences.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

History of the honor code, as far as Wilkinson's involvement (a pdf):

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... 04_101.pdf

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

patriotsaint wrote:Nobody has to pay for it.
What you are essentially communicating is that no one has to be LDS. In that same spirit, I could say that it is disingenuous to teach the principle of tithing without mentioning the Honor Code and it's effect at BYU, as all LDS pay for it's continuance & implementation as a choice that should be informed. Shall I bring it up when I teach Elders quorum?
As to the rest of your argument, the honor code only changes the game for those who elect to live under it.
Whatever. Most of your arguments seem wholly unconnected to the needs of the students and the necessity of having the Honor Code in the first place. You just keep insisting that it's there. If it is such a benefit, then please gush about what it does for students that their covenants don't supply. You've already covered the benefit of mind-clearing homogeneity, so you can skip that part and get right to the good stuff.

BYU is one of the most preeminent institutions associated with the Church, and thousands of our young people want to go there before they ever become educated about the effects that the Honor Code has upon the students. This info is dominantly disseminated in the living of it rather than in any formal or legitimate tutorial on what actually goes on at the school. The school doesn't advertise these messes that people get into regarding the code, and a legit understanding of what it means is therefore not a possibility in the cut-and-dry world that you assert.

Our young people are vital to the future of the Church. To enter the inexperienced into this micromanaged business en mass is not doing them any meaningful service. It simply serves the brand.
Again, the school and the church aren't making repentance more difficult.
The code does exactly that. It ups the ante regarding repentance, and unnecessarily so.

Aspects of the code have nothing to do with Christ. Yet you're defending them as if they are absolutely necessary for BYU to educate our young people. I maintain that they cause far more problems than they solve, and that BYU would be fine without them. The proof is in the years the school operated prior to 1957 when the code was primarily concerned with education.
the repentance process is tough.....and one looking for excuses to keep sin hidden due to professional, educational, social or familial concerns will always find one.
So what? Excuses are out there, but people still need to repent, right? BYU students included. The future of our smartest and brightest is what we are discussing here. The future of the Church. Your "sink or swim" attitude about this situation seems far more Darwinian than Christian. If you are concerned about excuses, then why provide students with a huge bureaucratic abstraction as another excuse?
While BYU is a decent school, it isn't right for everyone...and that's not a bad thing. Those that choose to go there should go with the understanding of what the expectations are and then be willing live up to those expectations or deal with the consequences.
While it is still in effect, I agree that prospective students should be educated with a true understanding of what the honor code means as BYU. I do not think they even remotely approach such an understanding until they are in the thick of it. The kind of presentation that one encounters at a college orientation is not nearly enough. Students should be exposed to both sides before they ever sign their name.

You seem to think that that's perfectly fair, I don't. Because of the code, the BYU brand represents something somewhat other to the LDS Church. But the general approach of our bright-eyed young people is to conflate the two into one entity.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

A Random Phrase wrote:History of the honor code, as far as Wilkinson's involvement (a pdf):

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... 04_101.pdf
Fascinating read. Thanks for the link.
A Universe columnist also reported that Taggart said he "feels like
the administration is using the code as a means to punish students, rather
than as a vehicle to improve students. ... Possibly one of the biggest of-
fenders is the Office of Standards, which has frequently violated stu-
dents' rights along with its own professional integrity. How? It is a well
known fact that, although a student is told upon entering the Office of
Standards that what he says is confidential, this often ain't what hap-
pens."
- page 96

Far more damning than anything I've come up with. Wilk was off his rocker.

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