Questions re: The Two witnesses

[Scarecrow]

In studying Revelations and some accompanying Church material, as well as words from the brethren, I'm a little confused as to the identity of the two witnesses as mentioned in Rev 11:3-12.

In D&C 77:15, the Lord answers Joseph's query about the identity of the two by saying that the the two witnesses are "two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days."

To me that sounds as if they will be two prophets from the Jewish faith, or at least of Jewish descent.

The New Testament Institute Manual (http://tinyurl.com/mhf6uf) appears to agree when it offers the following quote from Parley P. Pratt as clarification:
A couple of Jewish prophets, (emphasis mine) by their mighty miracles, keep them from utterly over-coming the Jews; until at length they are slain, and the city is left in a great measure to the mercy of their enemies for three days and a half.

However, the Doctrine and Covenants Institute Manual (http://tinyurl.com/lsfsb2) appears to have a different take as it uses a quote from Bruce R. McConkie and then adds a bit of its own clarification:
Elder Bruce R. McConkie identified the two prophets as “followers of that humble man Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fulness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church. (emphasis mine)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:509.)

The two witnesses are raised up “to the Jewish nation” and are not necessarily from the Jewish nation.

So here we have two different apostles (and manuals) with slightly, but significantly, different opinions. One says they will be Jewish, while another says they will be from the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency. So who/what do you think the Lord meant when he said "raised up to the Jewish nation?"

[ROB GIBBSEN]

So who/what do you think the Lord meant when he said "raised up to the Jewish nation?"

"Called to" or "Sent to" work in that area of the world. I believe they will be from the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency. I once home taught a man that was raised as a Jew and is from the tribe of Judah and is now a member of the church. Maybe something like that; But doesn’t have to be.

[Oldemandalton]

We go unto them with a message of peace, of truth, of eternal salvation, calling upon them to repent of their sins and enter into the true fold, where they may receive rest. When they will not do this, but to the contrary, will listen to the unrighteous and condemn the truth, then God will withdraw the Gospel from among them. In that day the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the gospel will be carried to the Jews. CR, JF SMITH JR APR:1911

Then, when the Gentile nations shall reject this Gospel and count themselves unworthy of eternal life, as the Jews did before them, the Lord will say?” It is enough, come away from them, my servants, I will give you a new commission; you shall go to the scattered remnants of the house of Israel. I will gather them in from the four quarters of the earth, and bring them again into their own lands. They shall build Jerusalem on its own heap; they shall rear a Temple on the appointed place in Palestine, and they shall be grafted in again." Now that, in short, is the nature of the great latter-day preparatory work for the coming of the Son of Man. JD, O PRATT 18:176-77

We might bring up, also, the declaration of John in relation to the two witnesses who are to prophecy about that period. They are to prophecy three and a half years, and their field of labor will be Jerusalem, after it shall have been rebuilt by the Jews. By means of their prophecies and the power of God attending them, the nations who are gathered together against Jerusalem will be kept at bay, these Prophets will hold them in check by their faith and power. By and by these nations overcome the two witnesses and, having finished their mission, they are slain, and their bodies will lie three days and a half in the streets of the city. Then a great earthquake will take place, and these two witnesses will be caught up to heaven. JD, O PRATT 16:329

I believe the 2 Witnesses will be two Apostles who will be sent to Israel at the end of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ to begin the teaching of the gospel to the Jews. Their mission wont be too successful until the war of Armageddon where these two witnesses will keep the armies of Gog & Magog at bay for 3 ½ years. The Jews then will begin to convert to the gospel when they see the miracles performed on their behalf. Total conversion will not take place until they see their messiah with wounds in his hands and feet. BTW this may be the time when the 3rd Temple is erected, during these 3 ½ years. I can’t see it being built while the Islamic Clerics control the Temple Mount. These Two Apostles will be specially chosen by God and raised up TO and not FROM the Jewish people.


Old Man Dalton

[sbsion]

It's all a POV.......I'd say No to the Jewish idea, No to the church idea, more likely something like two "Nephites", or two Shemites, or two Enochites".......see, they HAVE the faith to do Fathers work(AND, have proven themselves), I don't see two Jews or LDS with the "fullness" to manifest, hmmmmmmmmmm, again, just a POV.

[Scarecrow]

"Called to" or "Sent to" work in that area of the world. I believe they will be from the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency.

That was my first thought as well. And as I have thought about it, the phrase, "to be raised up to" does not require that the person be of Jewish descent. But it also implies more than just a calling that is given at some point in the person's life. Perhaps something along the lines of how Mormon or Joseph Smith were made aware at a young age of the work they would eventually be called to do, so they could prepare themselves.

However, to muddy the waters more, I've come across an article from the 1973 Ensign, where an author suggests that these two witnesses are possibly Moses & Elijah, sent from Heaven.

"The two witnesses sent to testify (witness) to the Jews before the end are their most favorite and important prophets, Moses and Elijah (or at least prototypes of a Moses and Elijah)." http://tinyurl.com/nnoxs7

[hedgehog]

If i could help with muddying the waters, I've read of Christian Jewish groups who believe that it maybe Moses and Elijah or other ancient prophets returned.

"raised up" certainly does seem to imply a life of preparation.

[sbsion]

If i could help with muddying the waters, I've read of Christian Jewish groups who believe that it maybe Moses and Elijah or other ancient prophets returned.
"raised up" certainly does seem to imply a life of preparation.

Excellent....hope they are right (no GA could match their creditials)

[kathyn]

Excellent....hope they are right (no GA could match their creditials)

"Credentials" have nothing to do with it. These two mortal men have a mission and they will have the faith to do whatever is necessary, when the time comes. It can't be Moses or Elijah, since they were probably translated beings and won't be able to be killed. And I suspect they've both already received their celestial bodies...changed in the "twinkling of an eye", as it were.

I don't know why anyone would think that some of our apostles and prophets today aren't possessed of enough faith to carry out this mission. I don't know if any of the brethren are aware of this mission as of yet, but certainly when the call comes, they will fulfill the mission gloriously.

[sbsion]

[I don't know why anyone would think that some of our apostles and prophets today aren't possessed of enough faith to carry out this mission. I don't know if any of the brethren are aware of this mission as of yet, but certainly when the call comes, they will fulfill the mission gloriously.

"Those two" were chosen before the world was, certainly a latter-day apostle could be one of them, but, none have born testimony that would "credential" them yet, the call has already been made......translated being still have to be "twinkled" or whatever, they still have access to "mortal" bodies and could suffer death......right?

[ldsff]

This is maybe a stretch....but could these two prophets whomever they are, just be called to bring and preach from the two witnesses, The Book of Mormon and Bible to the Jews? The Book of Mormon and Bible were raised up by the Jewish Nation so to speak.

[ldsff]

Ok I saw this on lds.org here :

Two prophets will be raised up unto (not from) the Jewish nation after the gathering. (See Isa. 51:17–20; Zech. 4:11–14.)

[Col. Flagg]

Question: why would the two witnesses be members of the First Presidency? I have a hard time seeing the prophet by himself with no Counselors for 3 1/2 years. IMO, it will be two members of the Q of the 12.

[ldsff]

Question: why would the two witnesses be members of the First Presidency? I have a hard time seeing the prophet by himself with no Counselors for 3 1/2 years. IMO, it will be two members of the Q of the 12.

Perhaps they will Skype more often.

[pjbrownie]

I suppose that we will all be a bit surprised by what actually turns up. We know McConkie and Pratt to have both been wrong in their lifetimes, so some if this maybe just shooting at the hip.

I wrote partly about this in my Surprise from Revelations post. I've been trying to piece things together lately. For example, we know that by the time the two prophets are prophesying in Jerusalem, that the second Beast or last Beast will be in power. It will be the Beast of the one world religion with Satan at its helm that forces people to worship the first Beast's image and receive the mark. I predict it will be the endgame for the New Age, after vanquishing Babylon the Great (the West) and heathen Atheism (Communism) from the first short-reigned Beast, it will come to power as the last great power.

The 7 plagues and seven vials will happen AFTER the prophets begin preaching. It seems clear that while they hold the beast at bay partially, that Jerusalem and the temple will be trampled under again by the Beast during this time frame. I have wondered if the plagues are actually called forth BY the prophets and the angels represent how it comes from heaven or they are working in league.

Because there must be a temple, one must ask, what kind of temple is it? It is built by the Jews but not yet sanctified? If Daniel's previous definitions of the abomination of desolation are any guide, the temple need not be a sanctified temple. Zerubabbel's temple of the Antiochus desecration was operating under apostasy, as was its expanded Herodian renovation during the 70 AD destruction. Even Solomon's temple fell under apostasy. Temples don't get desecrated when they have a holy people associated with them. What this tell us is that the next Jewish temple may not be an LDS temple, but a Jewish one. We know that for the most part, the Jewish nation is converted in one day. Very few are going to be listening to these prophets, who are there specifically for the Jews. My guess is that they are Latter-day Saint messengers (except they will be seen as messengers from that Zion land across the waters, I don't know if what we conceptualize as LDS will still be present by then or something larger.)

Left Behind casts these roles as Moses and Elijah.

[Joppa]

[I don't know why anyone would think that some of our apostles and prophets today aren't possessed of enough faith to carry out this mission. I don't know if any of the brethren are aware of this mission as of yet, but certainly when the call comes, they will fulfill the mission gloriously.

"Those two" were chosen before the world was, certainly a latter-day apostle could be one of them, but, none have born testimony that would "credential" them yet, the call has already been made......translated being still have to be "twinkled" or whatever, they still have access to "mortal" bodies and could suffer death......right?

What if these two witnesses aren't in the current Quorum of the 12 or First Presidency, but just some members of the church, who as holyhabanero pointed out, have received under inspiration of the Holy Ghost that this is what lays in store for them, so they are preparing themselves now knowing this is what they will accomplish later in life. I don't think that any of the current twelve will be these two witness, but they will be part of the raising generation. and I would be surprised if they didn't already know that this is something they will accomplish in their lives. And all I can say is how humbling it would be to know one day that is what you are going to be called to do.

[Joppa]

I'm currently readying His Return-Prophecy, Destiny and Hope by Richard N, Skousen and he states that this two witnesses won't be Jewish, but that they will be sent by the Lord to Jerusalem to help them
"Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which has drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of His fury-thou has drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling wrung out-and none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
These two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee-thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword-and by who shall i comfort thee? They sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of they God." 2 Nephi 8:17-20

[Carlos]

Revelations is full of metaphors and symbols. A beast is used as a representation of man made kingdoms, for example. What is curious about the two witnesses are their attributes. They destroy their enemies with fire and drought, they are vengeful, they annoy the nations, yet, they stand as witnesses of the "god of the earth". They are enlightening (as candlesticks) and provide spiritual or maybe physical nourishment (as olive trees). They are capable of being destroyed, yet will rise again. D&C 77:15 says they are "two prophets raised up...at the time of the restoration... to prophesy.."
I would suggest that maybe the two witnesses are not people, individuals, but nations. Nations raised up by God not man, thus they represent the God of the earth and stand as a witness of his power over the nations of the earth. I submit that the US and Israel are likely candidates for this line of thinking. The US was raised up at the time of the restoration and the Land of Israel was dedicated at the same time to rise up. The US and Israel have stood as examples of enlightenment and prosperity to the nations. Yet, they annoy the nations, they appear vengeful, they destroy enemies who attack them with fire and famine.. Is it not prophesied that the US and Israel will be destroyed? Is it not prophesied that they will rise again as new creatures, cleansed and ready for the establishment of the New Jerusalem or gathered Zion?
I understand that this interpretation is not orthodox because it is not literal. It relies on symbolism. Could God use metaphors to describe his two promised lands? One promised to Judah and the other to Joseph. The scriptures say much about the work of Joseph and Judah in the last days. I believe the witnesses of Revelations could well be the nations of Joseph and Judah. Certainly this interpretation fits what is happening in our world today, in this seventh millennium.

[drjme]

Revelations is full of metaphors and symbols. A beast is used as a representation of man made kingdoms, for example. What is curious about the two witnesses are their attributes. They destroy their enemies with fire and drought, they are vengeful, they annoy the nations, yet, they stand as witnesses of the "god of the earth". They are enlightening (as candlesticks) and provide spiritual or maybe physical nourishment (as olive trees). They are capable of being destroyed, yet will rise again. D&C 77:15 says they are "two prophets raised up...at the time of the restoration... to prophesy.."
I would suggest that maybe the two witnesses are not people, individuals, but nations. Nations raised up by God not man, thus they represent the God of the earth and stand as a witness of his power over the nations of the earth. I submit that the US and Israel are likely candidates for this line of thinking. The US was raised up at the time of the restoration and the Land of Israel was dedicated at the same time to rise up. The US and Israel have stood as examples of enlightenment and prosperity to the nations. Yet, they annoy the nations, they appear vengeful, they destroy enemies who attack them with fire and famine.. Is it not prophesied that the US and Israel will be destroyed? Is it not prophesied that they will rise again as new creatures, cleansed and ready for the establishment of the New Jerusalem or gathered Zion?
I understand that this interpretation is not orthodox because it is not literal. It relies on symbolism. Could God use metaphors to describe his two promised lands? One promised to Judah and the other to Joseph. The scriptures say much about the work of Joseph and Judah in the last days. I believe the witnesses of Revelations could well be the nations of Joseph and Judah. Certainly this interpretation fits what is happening in our world today, in this seventh millennium.

interesting and different interpretation that I have not come across carlos. I have personally leaned towards these prophets not being LDS, but it's an interesting take that I would like to look further into...

[marissawendt]

The first is clearly Elijah. Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord'. He is also the only one in the bible who calls down fire and is able to stop rain fall. These characteristics are listed to be characteristics of the 2 witnesses.

The second could be either Moses or John. Moses is the only other prophet who has proven the other 2 powers of the 2 witnesses.

It could be John as Rev 10:11 - Jesus says to John- And he said unto me, thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. Jesus is clearly saying he will prophesy again before the second coming. John was the only one out of the 12 disciples who died a natural death and not of martyrdom.

Matthew 20:22 (The mother of John and James ask for her sons to have special status in Kingdom) But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with? They said to Him, “We are able”.

Matthew 20:23 (Cup of suffering) So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
James fulfilled this by martyrdom in Acts 12:2. John never fulfilled this. John died naturally and not of martyrdom yet Jesus stated that all disciples will die of martyrdom. Clue to the fact that John will be resurrected and then killed by martyrdom as Revelations says the 2 witnesses will die.

On another note a previous comment said that Moses isn't dead. He is dead - In Jude Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses. Moses body is not raptured it’s dead on the earth meaning his spirit is yet to be raptured. He could also be resurrected and act as the second witness.

[Zion2080]

We go unto them with a message of peace, of truth, of eternal salvation, calling upon them to repent of their sins and enter into the true fold, where they may receive rest. When they will not do this, but to the contrary, will listen to the unrighteous and condemn the truth, then God will withdraw the Gospel from among them. In that day the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the gospel will be carried to the Jews. CR, JF SMITH JR APR:1911

Then, when the Gentile nations shall reject this Gospel and count themselves unworthy of eternal life, as the Jews did before them, the Lord will say?” It is enough, come away from them, my servants, I will give you a new commission; you shall go to the scattered remnants of the house of Israel. I will gather them in from the four quarters of the earth, and bring them again into their own lands. They shall build Jerusalem on its own heap; they shall rear a Temple on the appointed place in Palestine, and they shall be grafted in again." Now that, in short, is the nature of the great latter-day preparatory work for the coming of the Son of Man. JD, O PRATT 18:176-77

We might bring up, also, the declaration of John in relation to the two witnesses who are to prophecy about that period. They are to prophecy three and a half years, and their field of labor will be Jerusalem, after it shall have been rebuilt by the Jews. By means of their prophecies and the power of God attending them, the nations who are gathered together against Jerusalem will be kept at bay, these Prophets will hold them in check by their faith and power. By and by these nations overcome the two witnesses and, having finished their mission, they are slain, and their bodies will lie three days and a half in the streets of the city. Then a great earthquake will take place, and these two witnesses will be caught up to heaven. JD, O PRATT 16:329

I believe the 2 Witnesses will be two Apostles who will be sent to Israel at the end of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ to begin the teaching of the gospel to the Jews. Their mission wont be too successful until the war of Armageddon where these two witnesses will keep the armies of Gog & Magog at bay for 3 ½ years. The Jews then will begin to convert to the gospel when they see the miracles performed on their behalf. Total conversion will not take place until they see their messiah with wounds in his hands and feet. BTW this may be the time when the 3rd Temple is erected, during these 3 ½ years. I can’t see it being built while the Islamic Clerics control the Temple Mount. These Two Apostles will be specially chosen by God and raised up TO and not FROM the Jewish people.


Old Man Dalton

This is spot on. When do you think this will all happen?

[Zion2080]

I suppose that we will all be a bit surprised by what actually turns up. We know McConkie and Pratt to have both been wrong in their lifetimes, so some if this maybe just shooting at the hip.

I wrote partly about this in my Surprise from Revelations post. I've been trying to piece things together lately. For example, we know that by the time the two prophets are prophesying in Jerusalem, that the second Beast or last Beast will be in power. It will be the Beast of the one world religion with Satan at its helm that forces people to worship the first Beast's image and receive the mark. I predict it will be the endgame for the New Age, after vanquishing Babylon the Great (the West) and heathen Atheism (Communism) from the first short-reigned Beast, it will come to power as the last great power.

The 7 plagues and seven vials will happen AFTER the prophets begin preaching. It seems clear that while they hold the beast at bay partially, that Jerusalem and the temple will be trampled under again by the Beast during this time frame. I have wondered if the plagues are actually called forth BY the prophets and the angels represent how it comes from heaven or they are working in league.

Because there must be a temple, one must ask, what kind of temple is it? It is built by the Jews but not yet sanctified? If Daniel's previous definitions of the abomination of desolation are any guide, the temple need not be a sanctified temple. Zerubabbel's temple of the Antiochus desecration was operating under apostasy, as was its expanded Herodian renovation during the 70 AD destruction. Even Solomon's temple fell under apostasy. Temples don't get desecrated when they have a holy people associated with them. What this tell us is that the next Jewish temple may not be an LDS temple, but a Jewish one. We know that for the most part, the Jewish nation is converted in one day. Very few are going to be listening to these prophets, who are there specifically for the Jews. My guess is that they are Latter-day Saint messengers (except they will be seen as messengers from that Zion land across the waters, I don't know if what we conceptualize as LDS will still be present by then or something larger.)

Left Behind casts these roles as Moses and Elijah.

It seems like all of this you said will happen in just about 7-10 years. If these events are that close, how much time do we have left?

[kfb]

The first is clearly Elijah. Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord'. He is also the only one in the bible who calls down fire and is able to stop rain fall. These characteristics are listed to be characteristics of the 2 witnesses.

The second could be either Moses or John. Moses is the only other prophet who has proven the other 2 powers of the 2 witnesses.

It could be John as Rev 10:11 - Jesus says to John- And he said unto me, thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. Jesus is clearly saying he will prophesy again before the second coming. John was the only one out of the 12 disciples who died a natural death and not of martyrdom.

Matthew 20:22 (The mother of John and James ask for her sons to have special status in Kingdom) But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with? They said to Him, “We are able”.

Matthew 20:23 (Cup of suffering) So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
James fulfilled this by martyrdom in Acts 12:2. John never fulfilled this. John died naturally and not of martyrdom yet Jesus stated that all disciples will die of martyrdom. Clue to the fact that John will be resurrected and then killed by martyrdom as Revelations says the 2 witnesses will die.

On another note a previous comment said that Moses isn't dead. He is dead - In Jude Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses. Moses body is not raptured it’s dead on the earth meaning his spirit is yet to be raptured. He could also be resurrected and act as the second witness.

2 Apostles. Elijah has already restore the sealing powers that was his mission. Moses is in a transfigured state won't be him.

[Durzan]

an interesting discussion... one that does maintain my interest.

[Teancum]

The first is clearly Elijah. Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord'. He is also the only one in the bible who calls down fire and is able to stop rain fall. These characteristics are listed to be characteristics of the 2 witnesses.

The second could be either Moses or John. Moses is the only other prophet who has proven the other 2 powers of the 2 witnesses.

It could be John as Rev 10:11 - Jesus says to John- And he said unto me, thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. Jesus is clearly saying he will prophesy again before the second coming. John was the only one out of the 12 disciples who died a natural death and not of martyrdom.

Matthew 20:22 (The mother of John and James ask for her sons to have special status in Kingdom) But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with? They said to Him, “We are able”.

Matthew 20:23 (Cup of suffering) So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
James fulfilled this by martyrdom in Acts 12:2. John never fulfilled this. John died naturally and not of martyrdom yet Jesus stated that all disciples will die of martyrdom. Clue to the fact that John will be resurrected and then killed by martyrdom as Revelations says the 2 witnesses will die.

On another note a previous comment said that Moses isn't dead. He is dead - In Jude Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses. Moses body is not raptured it’s dead on the earth meaning his spirit is yet to be raptured. He could also be resurrected and act as the second witness.

Marissa, If I understand your points correctly, only those who have demonstrated the faith in previous times are eligible to be the two witnesses for the future?
If we limit the candidacy to just people from the past, then that actually puts limits on God also. For if God gave some sufficent faith and power to do his miracles in times past, He being an unchangeable and an all powerful God, could, has, and will do so again. If we understand this principle, we will not be surprised to find that there are actually others throughout time and in different places that do demonstrate such faith and power.

It is my understanding that they need not be limited to the ultra visible and highly popular to be of sufficient faith to receive God's power. There are stories of people who were not apostles that raised others from the dead and did many of these type miracles. Not to knock anyone off of their pedestal, but I believe that the inhabitants of ZION will all have this amount of faith and power, and why they will be such a terror to other nations and people.

[Durzan]

It is worth clarifying that neither of the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem are likely to be the Marred Servant... AKA Elias the Last Prophet.