Two Witness in Jerusalem

[BurningSword]

This scripture should be reminded to all members-

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.

17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

[GeeR]

Brother McConkie is wrong! Just like he admitted being wrong in saying the Blacks would not receive the priesthood in our time.

There are too much specifics in the Two Witnesses statements to rule out a non-spiritual provenance.

Came to me last night that, talking to me, a member here was derisive, even furious, to have learned that the "authorities in Salt Lake" had said the two witnesses would be or had been born in the Salt Lake Area. He was furious because he thought that the Church considered the members of the Utah area somewhat special and the only ones deemed for honours. I have not read the quote myself, but assume that he did. He talked to me about that subject at the late nineties, but I do remember the uncomfortable position of having to defend the Church once again to the members of the Church.

If true, Brother Bednar would not be one of the two witnesses, being born in California, even though I would not be surprised were he a member of the First Presidency, or even the President of the Church, at the time of Christ's coming.

That's is absolutely fascinating! The two-witnesses born in the Salt Lake area, huh!? Francisco would you be so kind as to track-down the quote from this person who first told you about it, please? I'm rather doubtful that such a quote exists from any general authority, I'm thinking he misread something or confused it with something else, but if the slight chance exists that it was said by an authority or authorities from the church it would be priceless to me. So would you please check it out and let us know back? Thanks.

[AI2.0]

The notion that the two witnesses are nations is wrong according to D&C 77:15. I believe the two are twin brothers that cannot be killed, the modern day counterparts of St. Crispin and Crispinian.

I've been thinking or wondering if the Lehi and Nephi in the latter part of the Book of Mormon were twins. We know they were brothers but I wouldn't be surprised if they were twin brothers with alliterative names, that just preceded the coming of Christ to the Americas. "Is there not a type in this thing?" (Alma 37:45) I know the two witnesses are scheduled to stave-off the forces that are out to destroy Israel but Revelation chap. 11 implies that they are hated among all nations (even in the USA) to the extant that the wicked the world over will celebrate their deaths by sending each other Christmas gifts. I'm thinking they will "torment" the USA with plague (Isa. 18) like Moses tormented the Egyptian government and people before their ministry in Jerusalem--again a typology. Many of the latter-day plagues are duplicate plagues of what Moses inflicted in Egypt like the plague of flies and the plague of waters turning to blood and the plague of hail. We know that the two witnesses will be empowered with the ability to "smite the earth with all plagues" (Rev. 11:6)--all the 10 plagues of Egypt!? We're talking about typological similitudes here folks thus proving God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Moses and Aaron were brothers--twin brothers?

Moses and Aaron were not twins. If they had been Aaron would have been in the reed basket among the bulrushes too. @-)

Aaron was an older brother and he was of an age that he was not in danger of being massacred by Pharoah.

[GeeR]

Thanks for your insight AI2, you're most probably right, it wasn't an idea I held to, just a thought on the fly.

[francisco.colaco]

Brother McConkie is wrong! Just like he admitted being wrong in saying the Blacks would not receive the priesthood in our time.

There are too much specifics in the Two Witnesses statements to rule out a non-spiritual provenance.

Came to me last night that, talking to me, a member here was derisive, even furious, to have learned that the "authorities in Salt Lake" had said the two witnesses would be or had been born in the Salt Lake Area. He was furious because he thought that the Church considered the members of the Utah area somewhat special and the only ones deemed for honours. I have not read the quote myself, but assume that he did. He talked to me about that subject at the late nineties, but I do remember the uncomfortable position of having to defend the Church once again to the members of the Church.

If true, Brother Bednar would not be one of the two witnesses, being born in California, even though I would not be surprised were he a member of the First Presidency, or even the President of the Church, at the time of Christ's coming.

That's is absolutely fascinating! The two-witnesses born in the Salt Lake area, huh!? Francisco would you be so kind as to track-down the quote from this person who first told you about it, please? I'm rather doubtful that such a quote exists from any general authority, I'm thinking he misread something or confused it with something else, but if the slight chance exists that it was said by an authority or authorities from the church it would be priceless to me. So would you please check it out and let us know back? Thanks.

As I wrote, I have not read the quote myself and I do not know who said it. I only remember Brother Frederico angry after being aware that someone with authority in the Church wrote or said it. He was furious that the two witnesses had to be born in Salt Lake area, and not elsewhere in the World, as if only the Salt Lake or Utah members were worthy by the Church perspective. It was another of his crisis and I had to step in once more.

Now, he was not a liar, and on the other end from being a dimwit. If he told me he heard or read it, be it gossip or not, the notion did exist. Werther true or not, beats me. Maybe our members from Utah may inquire around.

[samizdat]

Brother McConkie is wrong! Just like he admitted being wrong in saying the Blacks would not receive the priesthood in our time.

There are too much specifics in the Two Witnesses statements to rule out a non-spiritual provenance.

Came to me last night that, talking to me, a member here was derisive, even furious, to have learned that the "authorities in Salt Lake" had said the two witnesses would be or had been born in the Salt Lake Area. He was furious because he thought that the Church considered the members of the Utah area somewhat special and the only ones deemed for honours. I have not read the quote myself, but assume that he did. He talked to me about that subject at the late nineties, but I do remember the uncomfortable position of having to defend the Church once again to the members of the Church.

If true, Brother Bednar would not be one of the two witnesses, being born in California, even though I would not be surprised were he a member of the First Presidency, or even the President of the Church, at the time of Christ's coming.

That's is absolutely fascinating! The two-witnesses born in the Salt Lake area, huh!? Francisco would you be so kind as to track-down the quote from this person who first told you about it, please? I'm rather doubtful that such a quote exists from any general authority, I'm thinking he misread something or confused it with something else, but if the slight chance exists that it was said by an authority or authorities from the church it would be priceless to me. So would you please check it out and let us know back? Thanks.

As I wrote, I have not read the quote myself and I do not know who said it. I only remember Brother Frederico angry after being aware that someone with authority in the Church wrote or said it. He was furious that the two witnesses had to be born in Salt Lake area, and not elsewhere in the World, as if only the Salt Lake or Utah members were worthy by the Church perspective. It was another of his crisis and I had to step in once more.

Now, he was not a liar, and on the other end from being a dimwit. If he told me he heard or read it, be it gossip or not, the notion did exist. Werther true or not, beats me. Maybe our members from Utah may inquire around.

The only thing which I am aware of the two witnesses, is that they will be among the members in the Q12 or the FP. That much is certain. Where they are to be born however has never been revealed.

[GeeR]

So Francisco, there’s no chance of you contacting Brother Frederico at church and asking him for the source of the quote because you know a guy that would kill to have it?

[Lizzy60]

samizdat said:
"The only thing which I am aware of the two witnesses, is that they will be among the members in the Q12 or the FP. That much is certain. Where they are to be born however has never been revealed."

Do you have an authoritative reference for this statement? I have never heard of it being certain that they will come from the Top 15 men in the LDS Church.

[GeeR]

Samizdat, personally I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that the 2 witnesses are members of the First Presidency or the Quorum of the twelve apostles. I have my reasons which are too lengthy for me to go into now, but I'm a contrarian, I think they will come from the rank-and-file membership of the church like Eldad and Medad. Typology again.

[francisco.colaco]

So Francisco, there’s no chance of you contacting Brother Frederico at church and asking him for the source of the quote because you know a guy that would kill to have it?

He has fallen away once I moved out. Unfortunately most members in Portugal are Gospel-Principles-is-Advanced-Reading or, on the other extreme, I-Know-All-Mysteries-of-the-Kingdom-and-More-than-Thee. With no person to answer him in an intelligent manner, took him months to fall.

I am sure I could talk to him now just about anything, BUT the Church. In fact, I think I haven't seen him since 2012, and that was a fortuitous visit to his home while on the road from one more training assignment. You must understand this guy in no dud. I vouch for him: if he told it to me, true or not, it had been circulating, written form or orally, at the least at the time. Maybe it was something half-baked like the John Taylor's vision or the White Horse prophecy.

One day I will try again. My way: drag him to Church by the ear. If I ever move back to the area.

[GeeR]

Okay, I see. Thanks for responding anyway.

[Emmanuel]

The two witnesses will not be called by the LDS they will be called directly by the Father and Son, by God and members of LDS will also have to discern them as well with rest of the world. This will be done on purpose to teach the church it it does not limit how God works in His mystery's they will have the true fullness of priesthood power that will be given directly by Christ to them before they perform their mission. Elias is one of the two witnesses and also has a responsibility to seal the chosen tribes of Israel the 144,000 before the releasing of the winds by the four angels, he however also will be speaking to many kings, rulers and people of all nations in those days and bringing forth consequences based on sin as chastisement through power of God, for people worshipping the Devil in that time and commit so much evil.

[Sirocco]

If the end does come and I do get my country they will need some proof to enter Siroccostan.

[Matchmaker]

The two witnesses will not be called by the LDS they will be called directly by the Father and Son, by God and members of LDS will also have to discern them as well with rest of the world. This will be done on purpose to teach the church it it does not limit how God works in His mystery's they will have the true fullness of priesthood power that will be given directly by Christ to them before they perform their mission. Elias is one of the two witnesses and also has a responsibility to seal the chosen tribes of Israel the 144,000 before the releasing of the winds by the four angels, he however also will be speaking to many kings, rulers and people of all nations in those days and bringing forth consequences based on sin as chastisement through power of God, for people worshipping the Devil in that time and commit so much evil.

Will the new Temple in Jerusalem be built before the 2 witnesses appear there and begin testifying? Will the LDS Church be instrumental in the building of the new Temple?

[SuHwak]

Will the LDS Church be instrumental in the building of the new Temple?

I do not believe currently that the LDS church will be the one building the Temple in Jerusalem, rather, there is a group of Jews that have been preparing for the oppertunity for themselves to do this. Many of the items that they would need they have been, and are currently busy meticulously crafting again using the Torah and other sources as their guide.

See here for their site: https://www.templeinstitute.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just saw this as well: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rais ... -in-israel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rewcox]

From a most reliable source, Wikipedia:

Temple in Jerusalem

The LDS Church believes that there will be a temple[55] built within Jerusalem. The LDS Church is one of only a few churches that believe in the building of temples. The temple within Jerusalem will be built with one additional distinguishing feature that all other LDS temples do not have. This temple will contain a throne, which, at times, the Savior will personally sit and reign over the house of Israel.[55][58

Concerning the temple in Jerusalem, Orson Pratt stated, "By and by there will be a Temple built at Jerusalem. Who do you think is going to build it? You may think that it will be the unbelieving Jews who rejected the Savior. I believe that that which is contained on the 77th page of the Book of Mormon, as well as in many other places, in that same book, will be literally fulfilled. The Temple at Jerusalem will undoubtedly be built, by those who believe in the true Messiah. Its construction will be, in some respects different from the Temples now being built. It will contain the throne of the Lord, upon which he will, at times, personally sit, and will reign over the house of Israel for ever. It may also contain twelve other thrones, on which the twelve ancient Apostles will sit, and judge the twelve tribes of Israel."[59]

More recently, Bruce R. McConkie stated, "Who are those 'that are far off' who shall come to Jerusalem to build the house of the Lord? Surely they are the Jews who have been scattered afar. By what power and under whose authorization shall the work be done? There is only one place under the whole heavens where the keys of temple building are found. There is only one people who know how to build temples and what to do in them when they are completed. That people is the Latter-day Saints. The temple in Jerusalem will not be built by Jews who have assembled there for political purposes as at present. It will not be built by a people who know nothing whatever about the sealing ordinances and their application to the living and the dead. It will not be built by those who know nothing about Christ and his laws and the mysteries reserved for the saints. But it will be built by Jews who have come unto Christ, who once again are in the true fold of their ancient Shepherd, and who have learned anew about temples because they know that Elijah did come, not to sit in a vacant chair at some Jewish feast of the Passover, but to the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. The temple in Jerusalem will be built by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 'They that are far off,' they that come from an American Zion, they who have a temple in Salt Lake City will come to Jerusalem to build there another holy house in the Jerusalem portion of 'the mountains of the Lord's house.'"[60]

Two witnesses in Jerusalem
It is believed that two people will be called to preach the gospel in the land of Jerusalem, and that they will have the faith and power to cause miracles as seen in the Book of Revelation.[61] Since they are given the rights to prophecy, it is believed that they are prophets.[62] These prophets will be called to teach the gospel during a time of great conflict, and will be able to keep the nations gathered against Israel at bay for their ministry. This conflict is believed to be part of the battle of Armageddon, which is to take place near Megiddo or the Valley of Jezreel. After three and a half years, they will be killed by their enemies, and their bodies will lie in the street for three and a half days. Then a large earthquake will occur and they will rise miraculously and will ascend into heaven. Any of the twelve apostles could be considered a prophet, as they are accepted by the church as prophets, seers and revelators.

[SuHwak]

From a most reliable source, Wikipedia:

eh, heheh, right...

[long quotes]

Meh, I'm not fully convinced. 2 Nephi 16 (page 77 in the BoM?) is quoting Isaiah 6, and is highly symbolic.

Not that it matters to the daily flow of my life. If it happens to be that the LDS church is the one to build the temple in Jerusalem, I will shout for joy just as much as the next member. However, I'd rather see the native Jews build their Temple, because it will more likely motivate more Jews to live their religion and look to the (in their eyes 1st) coming of Christ.

To the Jews, their Temple will be build upon the original spot, any other spot is just another christian church building. Jews are never going to allow (when the spot becomes vacant) an American church to build there.

[rewcox]

From a most reliable source, Wikipedia:

eh, heheh, right...

[long quotes]

Meh, I'm not fully convinced. 2 Nephi 16 (page 77 in the BoM?) is quoting Isaiah 6, and is highly symbolic.

Not that it matters to the daily flow of my life. If it happens to be that the LDS church is the one to build the temple in Jerusalem, I will shout for joy just as much as the next member. However, I'd rather see the native Jews build their Temple, because it will more likely motivate more Jews to live their religion and look to the (in their eyes 1st) coming of Christ.

To the Jews, their Temple will be build upon the original spot, any other spot is just another christian church building. Jews are never going to allow (when the spot becomes vacant) an American church to build there.

I think there are some events that will take place that will have a bearing. No idea on the timing.

[Emmanuel]

The two witnesses shall be as the prophet Elijah and Moses, holding the power to bring forth manifestations that effect entire nations and this includes curses. The two witnesses will not be called by the authority's of LDS church they will be called directly by Jesus Christ in the flesh and he himself and his Father shall give the two witnesses their power, they will hold the full priesthood much greater than anything anyone has had before. The members of all churches shall be tested among the rest of mankind and it is these two prophets it is written it is like rejecting the Father and Son directly, they will have power to both save life's and to condemned them. They will not be teaching the Book of Mormon but teaching as Jesus Christ taught while he walked the earth.

[buffalo_girl]

I'm more inclined to agree with Emmanuel on the genesis of these prophets' power.

But then, I don't know.

I'm content to observe the method by which our Creator directs His mortal Creation - especially that aspect allowing human destiny to unfold - according to individual moral agency - on this, the Sixth Day.

JST, Hebrews 7:3
3 For this Melchizedek was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life. And all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.

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[sushi_chef]

what would be the (future) relationship between church authorities and antichrist????

the other day(09/05/2015), in sushi_s ward chapel, invited/participated in seminary 100 youths(actually included mostly adults and kids) recital of mastery scriptures, of all which only one waked up and grabbed suddenly/gently sushi_s mind and heart (that was from 2 thesallonian 2) and gave a kinda strong impression that "a falling away" is a future event!!!(wow scary) in other words "a falling away" (also revealed?) and "man of sin be revealed" are sorta in close proximity timewise.

as might notice church has taught that "a falling away" is the great apostacy and its already been fufilled for centuries (in sunday school materials), so, surprised sushi_ and made felt a bit embarrassed for hasnt paid attention and never thought of those words that way....

"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians)

"two witnesses" antichrist http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UTF ... antichrist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

other related verses would be from jst matthew 21,
"51 Verily, I say unto you, I am the stone, and those wicked ones reject me.
52 I am the head of the corner. These Jews shall fall upon me, and shall be broken....
55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof."
:-B

[Sunain]

samizdat said:
"The only thing which I am aware of the two witnesses, is that they will be among the members in the Q12 or the FP. That much is certain. Where they are to be born however has never been revealed."

Do you have an authoritative reference for this statement? I have never heard of it being certain that they will come from the Top 15 men in the LDS Church.

Here's the only official source that I know of and its from the current Institute manual.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote: “These two shall be followers of that humble man, Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fulness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church. Their prophetic ministry to rebellious Jewry shall be the same in length as was our Lord’s personal ministry among their rebellious forebears.

Old Testament Institute Student Manual Kings-Malachi, (1982), 291–95 - Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi, (1982), 291–95 (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:510.)
https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testamen ... i?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39900#p640419" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Matchmaker]

In my opinion, I would say the "No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve, etc." part is Elder McConkie's opinion. Everything an Apostle says is not always scripture or the gospel.

[buffalo_girl]

what would be the (future) relationship between church authorities and antichrist????

The ONLY relationship I need concern myself regarding an/the antichrist is my own.

Those folks over yonder have their unique mortal trajectories. I'm still doing what I can to figure out my own.

other related verses would be from jst matthew 21,

"51 Verily, I say unto you, I am the stone, and those wicked ones reject me.
52 I am the head of the corner. These Jews shall fall upon me, and shall be broken....
55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof."

We simply do NOT know which Gentile 'husbandmen/women' will fail in their individual stewardships over the LORD's vineyard even in the last days.

I have no doubt there will be failures in the LORD's vineyard by those of us who have the fullness of the Gospel in these latter days. I simply cannot waste my time & energy trying to figure out who to blame. Maybe it's me!

HOW do I apply the LORD's Law in my every day behaviors? WHAT fruits do I bring forth by my diligence?

2 Nephi 28:14
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

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HOW do I discern between Truth and Error?

1Corinthians 2

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

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[sushi_chef]

what would be the (future) relationship between church authorities and antichrist????

The ONLY relationship I need concern myself regarding an/the antichrist is my own.

Those folks over yonder have their unique mortal trajectories. I'm still doing what I can to figure out my own....

yeah thats right, sushi_s first and last concerns with anti-c also would be sushi_s own....but seems some between them, just expressed sushi_s extra mile effort....
:-B