Two Witness in Jerusalem

[DOZ]

Again, We are making too much out of nothing.
When we say.... I believe he was talking about..... or when we say, I want to see what he was talking about before he referenced this..... or when we say I want to know what they had for lunch between sessions.... and so on, we tread dangerous ground.
Our modern day prophet is given to us to interpret scripture and give counsel and direction.
More importantly he is here as a mouthpiece of God. He speaks to him. I would never ever suppose to say what he meant to say was.......
The reason we have all of these threads that say the same things and ask the same questions is because they do not make sense and no one can recognize the truth in them.
It all boils down to 7 seals. 1000 years each seal. We are now in the year 2009 or better said 6009. Yes, 9 years into the 7th seal. No overlap, no gap, no waiting for an earthquake and so on.
The Moon has turned to Blood and the Sun has darkened and so on. I didn't see it but then I don't need to see it to have it have happened. Turns out I have a minor part in all of this I guess.
There will be a conference at AOA and the world will not know, heck most of us won't even know.... unless you are one of the ones invited, and I have my request in.... But I can assure you that if the Prophet was to say tomorrow that that event had happened, I would fall to my knees and thank God for his goodness, not say, "Hey wait just a minute, no one checked with me or told me about it"
You get my drift.
The Elders being called home will be the next big event in my book. That is when the world is cooked as the testimony and their rejection is sealed upon them.
The two witnesses in Jerusalem will go over after the war in Israel starts and they are the only thing stopping the Muslims from overrunning the Jews.
Which by the way, can you imagine, whoever it is, being called in and being asked to go over and cry repentance in Jerusalem while all of this is going on? You would immediately know what it was all about and what your fate would be. More importantly you would know what your place in the worlds history would be. Very heady stuff.

Welcome Cowboy! I am late but in this case better late then never!

You have great comments and I do enjoy reading your posts...thank you kindly for sharing your knowledge, thoughts and opinions with us.

[pjbrownie]

Again, We are making too much out of nothing.
When we say.... I believe he was talking about..... or when we say, I want to see what he was talking about before he referenced this..... or when we say I want to know what they had for lunch between sessions.... and so on, we tread dangerous ground.
Our modern day prophet is given to us to interpret scripture and give counsel and direction.
More importantly he is here as a mouthpiece of God. He speaks to him. I would never ever suppose to say what he meant to say was.......
The reason we have all of these threads that say the same things and ask the same questions is because they do not make sense and no one can recognize the truth in them.
It all boils down to 7 seals. 1000 years each seal. We are now in the year 2009 or better said 6009. Yes, 9 years into the 7th seal. No overlap, no gap, no waiting for an earthquake and so on.
The Moon has turned to Blood and the Sun has darkened and so on. I didn't see it but then I don't need to see it to have it have happened. Turns out I have a minor part in all of this I guess.
There will be a conference at AOA and the world will not know, heck most of us won't even know.... unless you are one of the ones invited, and I have my request in.... But I can assure you that if the Prophet was to say tomorrow that that event had happened, I would fall to my knees and thank God for his goodness, not say, "Hey wait just a minute, no one checked with me or told me about it"
You get my drift.
The Elders being called home will be the next big event in my book. That is when the world is cooked as the testimony and their rejection is sealed upon them.
The two witnesses in Jerusalem will go over after the war in Israel starts and they are the only thing stopping the Muslims from overrunning the Jews.
Which by the way, can you imagine, whoever it is, being called in and being asked to go over and cry repentance in Jerusalem while all of this is going on? You would immediately know what it was all about and what your fate would be. More importantly you would know what your place in the worlds history would be. Very heady stuff.

You say that we tread on shaky ground trying to interpret the prophet but you did just that when you said that his Joel reference was President Hinckley stating that the sixth seal is done! I don't see him saying that anywhere. Aren't you on shaky ground for taking this one reference and trying to negate all of recorded scripture on the topic?

[Mark]

You say that we tread on shaky ground trying to interpret the prophet but you did just that when you said that his Joel reference was President Hinckley stating that the sixth seal is done! I don't see him saying that anywhere. Aren't you on shaky ground for taking this one reference and trying to negate all of recorded scripture on the topic?

Bing!

[ithink]

It all boils down to 7 seals. 1000 years each seal. We are now in the year 2009 or better said 6009. Yes, 9 years into the 7th seal. No overlap, no gap, no waiting for an earthquake and so on.

How is your calendar cowboy? Roman? Is it accurate? How do you know? If you can't substantiate your calendaring, it should be dismissed.

The Moon has turned to Blood and the Sun has darkened and so on. I didn't see it but then I don't need to see it to have it have happened. Turns out I have a minor part in all of this I guess.

I didn't see it either. Who did, and who says it did?

There will be a conference at AOA and the world will not know, heck most of us won't even know.... unless you are one of the ones invited, and I have my request in....

You have your request in? Nice touch. If you are watching, will you not know?

The Elders being called home will be the next big event in my book. That is when the world is cooked as the testimony and their rejection is sealed upon them.

Is that so? Maybe, provided the gospel has been provided in a manner that is acceptable to God. And what about those "inside" that have two lips in Zion and two feet in Babylon?

The two witnesses in Jerusalem will go over after the war in Israel starts and they are the only thing stopping the Muslims from overrunning the Jews.

Are you sure? Which private actor factored heavily in the establishment of the state of Israel?

Which by the way, can you imagine, whoever it is, being called in and being asked to go over and cry repentance in Jerusalem while all of this is going on? You would immediately know what it was all about and what your fate would be. More importantly you would know what your place in the worlds history would be. Very heady stuff.

Those who are to be involved are alive but do not know who they really are (few of us do), and they currently hold no position of importance in the church.

Of more importance to us might be the following verses:

6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.
9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.
10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.
11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;
12 Therefore, it shall be done unto them as unto the children of the priest, as will be found recorded in the second chapter and sixty-first and second verses of Ezra.

[pjbrownie]

I just posted a response to this (hate the threadjack, sorry, but it does relate to the two witnesses). I posted my response to the 1000 years equals a seal here (from the Ensign by the way): http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7330

Basic concept is that we shouldn't take the 1,000 year thing down to the exact year from Christ. They state that each seal equals about 1,000 years, and that the seals are reckoned from the fall, not from Christ's birth. We know the fall happened about 4,000 BC, but it could be off a couple decades or so (maybe even centuries, who knows?).

That's why we need to use the signs of the times to know how close we are to the Second Coming.

[Joppa]

In the Doctrine and Covenants student manual it states in the sections about Revelation 77 page 171 that "the two witnesses are raised up "to the Jewish nation" and are not necessarily from the Jewish nations. I have always thought of the two witnesses to have Jewish ancestry but not necessarily from the tribe of Judah.

[francisco.colaco]

My bad. I was confusing shemitah with jubilee.

[Hogmeister]

"Jerusalem" (place/city or foundation of peace and righteousness) in the end times is not found in Israel (the first shall be last). It is instead found on the American continent. Hence I believe the 2 witnesses will stand as witnesses on the american continent not in "Ancient jerusalem". The Lord will create a new much larger Jerusalem that will be able to provide as a sanctuary and a refuge for all of his people from the whole world in the last days. The whole wicked world will be set against the USA in the end times (I believe this will happen after its founding principles as sanctioned by the Lord himself have been saved by the true patriots (hanging by a thread as it were)). The whole wicked world will not be set against the already corrupt and tiny nation that seem to have sprung out of "ancient Israel". I more and more believe that the nation that was created by the "NWO" after WW2 is a distraction to obfuscate what is really going on with the fulfilling of prophesies in the end times. Ancient Israel "dropped the ball" the Lord is creating/gathering his people anew (remember you do not pour new wine in an old skin). The restoration taking place in America proves it. Forget supposedly "ancient Israel" having "THE" most prominent role in the end times (they will receive or reject the restoration on the same terms as the rest of us).

[Silver]

"Jerusalem" (place of peace and righteousness) in the end times is not found in Israel (the first shall be last). It is instead found on the American continent. Hence I believe the 2 witnesses will stand as witnesses on the american continent not in "Ancient jerusalem". The Lord will create a new much larger Jerusalem that will be able to provide as a sanctuary and a refuge for all of his people from the whole world in the last days. The whole wicked world will be set against the USA in the end times (I believe this will happen after its founding principles as sanctioned by the Lord himself have been saved by the true patriots (hanging by a thread as it were)). The whole wicked world will not be set against the already corrupt and tiny nation that sprung out of "ancient Israel". I more and more believe that the nation that was created by the "NWO" after WW2 is only a distraction to obfuscate what is really going on with the fulfilling of prophesies in the end times.

What about Orson Hyde's 1841 trip through the Middle East and dedication of the land of Israel? That doesn't count?

[Hogmeister]

"Jerusalem" (place of peace and righteousness) in the end times is not found in Israel (the first shall be last). It is instead found on the American continent. Hence I believe the 2 witnesses will stand as witnesses on the american continent not in "Ancient jerusalem". The Lord will create a new much larger Jerusalem that will be able to provide as a sanctuary and a refuge for all of his people from the whole world in the last days. The whole wicked world will be set against the USA in the end times (I believe this will happen after its founding principles as sanctioned by the Lord himself have been saved by the true patriots (hanging by a thread as it were)). The whole wicked world will not be set against the already corrupt and tiny nation that sprung out of "ancient Israel". I more and more believe that the nation that was created by the "NWO" after WW2 is only a distraction to obfuscate what is really going on with the fulfilling of prophesies in the end times.

What about Orson Hyde's 1841 trip through the Middle East and dedication of the land of Israel? That doesn't count?

Sure it does... All lands are dedicated for the gathering work in the last days.

[Hogmeister]

Exerpts from my own Isaiah commentary (pet project) which rests heavily on Avraham Gileadis magnificient work:

To understand the message and great relevance of Isaiah for us who live in the latter days we must first disconnect any names, peoples and nations from their existing modern "literal" applications. It is worth noting that many of the identities that Isaiah uses, also very significant ones such as the king or kingdom of Assyria, do not exist in a modern "literal" application but their roles are vital in Isaiah's end-time prophesy. When Isaiah describes what he saw happening to latter-day or end-time Jerusalem (or Israel) he is not describing the ancient city or land of Jerusalem (or Israel) which location and name happen to have continued into modern times. We must understand that Isaiah uses historical types and figures familiar to him and Nephi (2 Nephi 25:5-6) to describe the end-time peoples and nations that both he and Nephi (and many other prophets from Adam and onwards) saw. It is the similar roles that they play that are of importance. Of course Isaiah did also prophesy concerning the events that would shortly unfold in ancient Jerusalem. There is an ancient layer of prophesy in the book of Isaiah and Nephi and Christ confirms this (3 Nephi 23:3) but I would argue that the "meat" and purpose of this book is concerning the fulfilling of the Lord's covenant with the house of Israel in the end-times (3 Nephi 20:11-13) which will have many similar events as has already happened to ancient Jerusalem and Israel but which will unfold on a larger scale (world-wide). "Judah" (the kingdom of Judah or the southern kingdom) and "Jerusalem" are the ancient codenames for modern America/USA which has a vital role to play in gathering modern Israel (D&C 113:3-4). Joseph Smith revealed that the city of New Jerusalem or the "land" of New Jerusalem would be located on the American continent (Articles of faith 1:10; 3 Ne 21:22-23) which confirms the end-time identity of "prophetic" Jerusalem in Isaiah.

...

Remember this is also (if not primarily) end-time prophesy and the King of Syria, the King of Israel (the northern kingdom) and Jerusalem will have other modern identities in the end-times. Jerusalem is likely the ancient codeword for latter day USA. Note that Jerusalem likely means "city or foundation" of "righteousness and peace" (Hebr 7:2). Joseph Smith also explained "President Smith read the 7th Chap. Hebrews and said: Salem is designed for a Hebrew term. It should be Shiloam, which signifies righteousness and peace; as it is, it is nothing--neither Hebrew, Greek, Latin, French, nor any other language (Section Six 1843-44, p.321). It is likely that "Jerusalem" is used by the Lord and his prophets to designate a place dedicated to the principles of "righteousness and peace" (Shiloam, also consider the "waters of Shiloah/Shiloam" in Isa 8:6) and not a fixed geographical spot. The original US constitution set out to establish a modern nation founded on righteous (Christian morals) and peaceful principles. As the nation has left or forgotten its founding principles it has also abandoned the principles of righteousness and peace. As previously noted the USA or the Americas will be the land of New Jerusalem, which is also the prophetic or latter day Jerusalem referenced in scripture and as revealed by Joseph Smith the prophet (10th article of faith). Latter day Jerusalem or New Jerusalem is also referred to as the "land of inheritance" (3 Ne 20:33, 46) or "land of promise" according to the covenant between the Lord and his people.


By the way I am not an American or even living in the USA. I am a Swede living in the God forsaken socialist dream of a country called Sweden (our controlled media absolutely abhors the true American patriot).

[Hogmeister]

A little bonus commentary on "the waters of Shiloah" (Salem)

Isaiah 8:6 (KJV) Forasmuch as this people refuseth
the waters of Shiloah that go softly,
and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;

Isaiah 8:6 (AG translation) Because these people have rejected
the Waters of Shiloah, which flow gently,
and rejoice in Rezin and the son of Remaliah,

Avraham Gileadi: "As Jehovah had warned Ahaz, so he now warns Ahaz’ people, repudiating their covenantal status by calling them “these people” or “this people” (hā ām hazzeh). As Ahaz proved disloyal to Jehovah, moreover, so Ahaz’ people prove disloyal to Ahaz. They favor the northern kings over the “waters of Shiloah which flow gently”—that is, the Davidic dynasty Jehovah appointed to rule over them (cf. Isaiah 7:3). For conspiring to replace Ahaz, they will suffer worse than his rule—the rampaging River flooding beyond its borders—the king of Assyria at the height of his military might."

My commentary: The people of the land refuse the principles of "righteousness and peace" (Shiloam) on which the nation (Jerusalem/USA) was founded on. Similarly the people refuses the restored gospel of "righteousness and peace" administered by the Lord's end-time servant. The people (the majority) instead chooses the way of confrontation, war and deception (Rezin and the son of Remaliah). For this they will suffer.

[Hogmeister]

Something to consider. There is a lot of symbolism going on in revelation chapter 11. Could the 2 witnesses (olive trees often represent peoples or nations rather than individuals) be referring not to individuals but to powerful nations that will subject the rest of the world by their power (there is a lot of resources spent to conduct wars, economic wars, weather wars and biological wars previously and in the future as an example). I do not have in vision Elder Bednar tormenting/oppressing the world (read the whole chapter to see the kind of witnesses they are/will be). When these "nations" die the rest of the world will rejoice. The "nations" will be resurrected but on a more righteous level (taken from Sodom and Egypt to heaven/Zion symbolically). I believe USA (and russia/soviet? England?) has had this power over the nations of the earth (even to keep the state of Israel mostly safe) but it is waning. Perhaps we should not take 1260 days or 3,5 days literally. The beast out of the bottomless pit (the great conspiracy fact or the "NWO" - fiat money is a bottomless mine/resource to make war/oppress with) will overcome these powerful and lately oppressive (due to the NWO agenda) end time witnesses/nations and the deceived world will rejoice with their realized "NWO" (beast) for a short time.

[Matchmaker]

I have listened to a lot of Gileadi's talks about Isaiah and I understood that in the latter days there will be two Jerusalems, one the New Jerusalem in the USA, and another one in old Jerusalem in Israel. I understand him saying that the 2 witnesses will be testifying to the Jews in Jerusalem prior to the Battle of Armageddon, which begins at the Hill of Megiddo in the Valley of Jezreel in Israel.

[Hogmeister]

I have listened to a lot of Gileadi's talks about Isaiah and I understood that in the latter days there will be two Jerusalems, one the New Jerusalem in the USA, and another one in old Jerusalem in Israel. I understand him saying that the 2 witnesses will be testifying to the Jews in Jerusalem prior to the Battle of Armageddon, which begins at the Hill of Megiddo in the Valley of Jezreel in Israel.

I respect Avraham a lot and have had email conversations with him and I believe he is correct on most things that matter anyway but not all. I believe the battle of Armageddon will consist of the wicked world going up against the Lords actual covenant keeping people in Zion/New Jerusalem which will be located on the American continent. These have a right to the Lords protection based on their current righteousness. The supposed ancestors of "ancient Israel" has still not picked up the dropped ball and do not currently enjoy the Lords protection. Again these are historical types/figures/names used to describe future events. America is key - The book of Mormon is the the new covenant.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:57
And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[buffalo_girl]

I was once 'troubled' by the generally accepted belief that the UN designated ISRAEL was fulfillment of sacred prophecy regarding the JEWS in the latter-days. ISRAEL has NOT accepted "Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, and pray unto the Father in Christ's name (3Nephi 20:30-31)".

Several years ago, I discovered that the following passage from 3Nephi has a 'timeline' regarding the Gathering of the Jews to 'the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem'. I posted this on another thread long ago, but cannot find it.

The LORD describes the chronology leading to the establishment of the NEW Jerusalem upon this continent, but then describes the chronology in the 'gathering' to Jerusalem.

So...to repeat what has helped me 'see' beyond what is the present, troubled nation of Israel, let's look at 3Nephi 20:29-46

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/20?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll abbreviate this to verses 29-33 in order to point out the changes of 'tense' in the LORD's words regarding the 'gathering' of Covenant people back to Jerusalem:

3Nephi 20

29 And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem, which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.

30 And it shall come to pass that the time cometh, when the fulness of my gospel shall be preached unto them;

31 And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.

32 Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice, and with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye.

33 Then will the Father gather them together again, and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.

I read this passage from the LORD to the 'more righteous' people on this continent as the Father's covenant promise to the Tribes who will be worthy to 'gather to Jerusalem' to be taught the 'fulness of the LORD's gospel' after having been gathered provisionally.

I do not believe those governing the State of Israel currently are worthy. I believe there will be a 'cleansing' of the so-called Holy Land in order to prepare the way for the LORD's Gospel & LAW.

The secret combination is found in "all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people" (Ether 8).

[Silver]

Very simply, the Lord will arrive in Israel, land on THE Mount of Olives and save the beleaguered Jews who have survived all the fighting. They will see the wounds in His hands and feet and enquire about them. That's going to happen in the Middle East, not the Midwest.

[Hogmeister]

Very simply, the Lord will arrive in Israel, land on THE Mount of Olives and save the beleaguered Jews who have survived all the fighting. They will see the wounds in His hands and feet and enquire about them. That's going to happen in the Middle East, not the Midwest.

I would not be so certain. Not after my studies on the subject. In the end times there will be a new mount of olives (a nation title). It is the true followers of Christ that will be beleaguered. That is the people Satan is worried about and they will be gathered to the Americas.

[davedan]

Joseph Smith and Orson Hyde literally dedicated Israel and Jerusalem for the literal gathering of the Jews. The Jews have been literally gathered to Israel, Israel has literally become a nation again.

After the Jews are literally converted to Christ, they will make powerful missionaries to the heathen nations.

[francisco.colaco]

Something to consider. There is a lot of symbolism going on in revelation chapter 11. Could the 2 witnesses (olive trees often represent peoples or nations rather than individuals) be referring not to individuals but to powerful nations that will subject the rest of the world by their power (there is a lot of resources spent to conduct wars, economic wars, weather wars and biological wars previously and in the future as an example). I do not have in vision Elder Bednar tormenting/oppressing the world (read the whole chapter to see the kind of witnesses they are/will be). When these "nations" die the rest of the world will rejoice. The "nations" will be resurrected but on a more righteous level (taken from Sodom and Egypt to heaven/Zion symbolically). I believe USA (and russia/soviet? England?) has had this power over the nations of the earth (even to keep the state of Israel mostly safe) but it is waning. Perhaps we should not take 1260 days or 3,5 days literally. The beast out of the bottomless pit (the great conspiracy fact or the "NWO" - fiat money is a bottomless mine/resource to make war/oppress with) will overcome these powerful and lately oppressive (due to the NWO agenda) end time witnesses/nations and the deceived world will rejoice with their realized "NWO" (beast) for a short time.

Hogmeister: the Lord has been inquired and said the two witnesses are two prophets, individuals therefore, raised to the jewish nation. Quoting D&C 77:

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?

A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Emphasis mine.

Note that Marion G. Romney have said the two witnesses are living and had (in 1979, time of the utterance) recently received the Aaronic Priesthood. I cannot find the quote anywhere, but here in LDS Freedom Forum Eric has read it also (this thread, last page, about 2/3 down). I had no remembrance of the word "recently" until I read what Eric wrote here, by the way.

The Battle of Armaggedon will be fought in Jerusalem at (in and around) the Valley of Meggido, a large valley by itself. The Anti-Christ will make an all-or-nothing assault against the only people that do not bow to him, the jewish people. The Americas will be probably (or most certainly) away from his attention at that moment, neutralised and in strife. He will probably not even notice the rise of Zion.

The two prophets are to minister unto the Jews at *the land of their fathers*, meaning Jerusalem and a Greater Israel. Even Nephi calls it so.

By the time of the Battle of Armageddon some jews will have seen the Saviour, and converted. The Saviour will come to the temple of Jerusalem seven years before the second coming, after the temple is consecrated. I dare to say also, seven years before he will appear also in Zion, in Adam-ondi-Ahman. That, in my opinion, will put Adam-ondi-Aman in 2022 or 2029, in or just after a sabbatical year, and the second coming to around 2036 or 2043. The jewish tradition says that the saviour will come in or just after a sabbatical year, and that is why I think all these manifestation of Jesus Christ will come related to sabbatical years.

I might have also read somewhere that the second coming will occur at Easter, but I am not sure if it came from LDS authorities or jewish traditions.

I do not thing the Srcond Coming will come much further than 2043. The two witnesses will be nearing 80 years of age by then. That pretty much sets a soft upper limit. I may be understating what the Lord can do with old and experienced priesthood holders, though.

Of course, I claim no spiritual insight on this matter of timing. I just try my best to cross statements and piece the clues together.

[Hogmeister]

Hogmeister: the Lord has been inquired and said the two witnesses are two prophets, individuals therefore, raised to the jewish nation. Quoting D&C 77:

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?

A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Emphasis mine.

Note that Marion G. Romney have said the two witnesses are living and had (in 1979, time of the utterance) recently received the Aaronic Priesthood. I cannot find the quote anywhere, but here in LDS Freedom Forum Eric has read it also (this thread, last page, about 2/3 down). I had no remembrance of the word "recently" until I read what Eric wrote here, by the way.

The Battle of Armaggedon will be fought in Jerusalem at (in and around) the Valley of Meggido, a large valley by itself. The Anti-Christ will make an all-or-nothing assault against the only people that do not bow to him, the jewish people. The Americas will be probably (or most certainly) away from his attention at that moment, neutralised and in strife. He will probably not even notice the rise of Zion.

The two prophets are to minister unto the Jews at *the land of their fathers*, meaning Jerusalem and a Greater Israel. Even Nephi calls it so.

By the time of the Battle of Armageddon some jews will have seen the Saviour, and converted. The Saviour will come to the temple of Jerusalem seven years before the second coming, after the temple is consecrated. I dare to say also, seven years before he will appear also in Zion, in Adam-ondi-Ahman. That, in my opinion, will put Adam-ondi-Aman in 2022 or 2029, in or just after a sabbatical year, and the second coming to around 2036 or 2043. The jewish tradition says that the saviour will come in or just after a sabbatical year, and that is why I think all these manifestation of Jesus Christ will come related to sabbatical years.

I might have also read somewhere that the second coming will occur at Easter, but I am not sure if it came from LDS authorities or jewish traditions.

I do not thing the Srcond Coming will come much further than 2043. The two witnesses will be nearing 80 years of age by then. That pretty much sets a soft upper limit. I may be understating what the Lord can do with old and experienced priesthood holders, though.

Of course, I claim no spiritual insight on this matter of timing. I just try my best to cross statements and piece the clues together.

It has also been said that the Church of Christ is a bride/woman an individual therefore?

The land of their fathers could be interpreted as "the land of promise/inheritance" and might not have a solely geographical meaning. Eventually all the earth will be a land of promise/the land of their fathers.

3 Nephi 20:29
And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem (Jerusalem means foundation of peace and righteousness which is a spiritual characteristic of a land of promise), which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.

46 Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.

The Lords people are not only decendants of Jews in fact I would think that decended Jews are in minority (however the key to being the Lords people is not so much decent/genetics but the acceptance of Christ and his teachings). Do you think that the already overcrowded ancient city/land of Jerusalem will be able to support the whole of the Lords people (the 12 tribes of Israel). We have the prophesy of a new larger Jerusalem for a reason.

No matter. The Lord knows what he's doing and all his words will be fulfilled but I have a feeling that many will be surprised anyhow.

[Hogmeister]

Joseph Smith and Orson Hyde literally dedicated Israel and Jerusalem for the literal gathering of the Jews. The Jews have been literally gathered to Israel, Israel has literally become a nation again.

After the Jews are literally converted to Christ, they will make powerful missionaries to the heathen nations.

President Monson literally dedicated or rededicated Sweden for the literal gathering of Israel (missionary work) in 1977 (The previous record of dedication had been lost) ;)

[buffalo_girl]

Well...I guess we will simply have to wait & see since I'm not sure any of us has a perfect insight into how this will unfold.

Anyway, as I've said any number of times before; the continents will be brought back together at the LORD's return making us ALL one - without cultural or national identity. We are either regenerated roots or branches growing within the LORD's vineyard.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 3?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doctrine & Covenants 133

11 Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour.

12 Let them, therefore, who are among the Gentiles flee unto Zion.

13 And let them who be of Judah flee unto Jerusalem, unto the mountains of the Lord’s house.

14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.

20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.

21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.

25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

Since the two prophets' deaths will be viewed & rejoiced over by the wicked of the entire earth, we can pray we aren't obligated to witness this depravity.

The best we can DO is "to look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was" (Jarom 1:11)

[francisco.colaco]

Hogmeister,

The two prophets are individuals. The have been born mid-sixties of last century and by now are in their late forties or early fifties, if we consider Marion G. Romney's words.

Those that descend not from Jews or from the ten tribes will be adopted into Abraham's seed and be a part of the abrahamic covenant.

Most of us will be brought into Ephraim, to fulfill the process given to him by Jacob. Guess there will be twelve soccer teams in Zion, or thirteen if Manassas does not go with Ephraim as Joseph.

Ephraim will have the greatest claque. ;)

[francisco.colaco]

Buffalo Girl,

Your flag and my flag will continue through the Millennium. This according to Brigham Young. The peoples and nations will be in peace with each other, and nations will be subject to Zion.

Please do not confuse Christ's reign with Lenin's. They are diametrically opposite. Those that pretend that to have peace nationalities are to be destroyed are called international communists, or socialists.

We should be proud of our nations, in whatever good they have. The United States have a proud, moral, strong and upstanding people that obviously has a marked tendency of choosing their leaders from their worst.

Portugal on the other hand has better cuisine and pastry. We also choose our leadership badly, just not as bad as you. For the moment. We have general elections in October to see if what I said still holds.

Canada has... well, I'll have trouble choosing. Maybe moose?

Would you throw the ideal of nations away? Would not nations and peoples and traditions and groups be a part of the human creation, the true glory of God?