Two Witness in Jerusalem

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freedomforall
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by freedomforall »

Concerning the sun darkening and the moon appearing as blood, check our these verses and see if these events are one in the same or if there are two separate events.

D&C 88:87
87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree.

Rev. 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:10
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

These events have not happened as yet. We have had no world wide earthquakes causing the earth to rock to and fro.

Now compare these with this one. This one appears to give a whole different time frame, where the very presence of Christ causes all these events to occur. Note, too, that it appears that these things all happen once the sixth seal is opened and not before.

D&C 133:48,49
48 And the Lord shall be red in his apparel, and his garments like him that treadeth in the wine-vat.
49 And so great shall be the glory of his presence that the sun shall hide his face in shame, and the moon shall withhold its light, and the stars shall be hurled from their places.

I believe this is a one time occurrence taking place as stated upon Christ coming to earth in red apparel. How many times can the stars be hurled from their location.

Sunain
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Sunain »

freedomforall wrote:D&C 88:87
87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree.

Rev. 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

These events have not happened as yet. We have had no world wide earthquakes causing the earth to rock to and fro.
Not to sure about that. There have been some disastrous earthquakes all over the world in the last few years. Personally I'd say DC88:77 is fulfilled about the "the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man" part. As for Rev 6:12 begin fulfilled and the great earthquake shaking the whole earth, as the NASA states in the quote below, a large celestial object would be required to do that which I guess is why people think the whole Planet X/Nibiru would be the catalyst for the great earthquake. Any of these recent earthquake might be the one John was talking about, there's just no way to know for sure unless we experience a bigger one in the future.

The 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami was a 9.1 and killed a quarter of a million people. The 2010 earthquake in Haiti was disastrous and Port-au-Prince is still in bad condition.
The government estimated about 220,000 deaths from the disaster, which occurred five years ago Monday. It also left about 1.5 million Haitians homeless. Then things got worse. A massive cholera outbreak followed, killing nearly 8,600.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/11/world/cnn ... ualazzini/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... rt-alleges" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The 2011 Japan earthquake was a pretty devastating quake and the effects of the nuclear disaster are felt even today on the west coast of North America from debris and radiation washing up.
The calculations also show the Japan quake should have shifted the position of Earth's figure axis (the axis about which Earth's mass is balanced) by about 17 centimeters (6.5 inches), towards 133 degrees east longitude. Earth's figure axis should not be confused with its north-south axis; they are offset by about 10 meters (about 33 feet). This shift in Earth's figure axis will cause Earth to wobble a bit differently as it rotates, but it will not cause a shift of Earth's axis in space—only external forces such as the gravitational attraction of the sun, moon and planets can do that.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/featur ... 10314.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... ami.earth/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Chile had an 8.8 earthquake in 2010 and then a 7.1 in 2012. It was also reported that the 2010 quake was also so powerful it also shifted the axis of the Earth.
By speeding up Earth's rotation, the magnitude 8.8 earthquake—the fifth strongest ever recorded, according to the USGS—should have shortened an Earth day by 1.26 millionths of a second. Gross also estimates that the Chile earthquake shifted Earth's figure axis by about three inches (eight centimeters).
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... tened-day/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The 2013 Chelyabinsk meteor was seen all over the world. A spectacular sight as so many people were able to capture video of it.

The Nepal earthquake earlier in 2015 decimated Kathmandu, Nepal.

Emmanuel
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Emmanuel »

The leadership will be gathered and given a witness before the time of Antichrist, that they do not fall away, the witness they will be given will not be given to the whole of the church, the members will have to trust their account of it. This meeting will be only for those it is known shall part take in such and it will occur in a mysterious way at the land of Adam Ondi Ahman, no soul not meant to witness such will be able to enter it during that time as it will not be accessible through mysterious ways. Jesus Christ himself shall come in the flesh with many of hosts of Heaven, Therefore they shall indeed become true special witnesses to Christ and his Two Witnesses and the Holy prophets and angels which shall be at that meeting before the time of Antichrist comes.

Emmanuel
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Emmanuel »

freedomforall wrote:Concerning the sun darkening and the moon appearing as blood, check our these verses and see if these events are one in the same or if there are two separate events.

D&C 88:87
87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree.

Rev. 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:10
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

These events have not happened as yet. We have had no world wide earthquakes causing the earth to rock to and fro.

Now compare these with this one. This one appears to give a whole different time frame, where the very presence of Christ causes all these events to occur. Note, too, that it appears that these things all happen once the sixth seal is opened and not before.

D&C 133:48,49
48 And the Lord shall be red in his apparel, and his garments like him that treadeth in the wine-vat.
49 And so great shall be the glory of his presence that the sun shall hide his face in shame, and the moon shall withhold its light, and the stars shall be hurled from their places.

I believe this is a one time occurrence taking place as stated upon Christ coming to earth in red apparel. How many times can the stars be hurled from their location.
The event you speak of concerning the sixth seal is soon at hand, a similar yet greater event occurs near end of the great tribulation before the day of burning. Sixth seal is actually the beginning of the great tribulation, the time of rule of Antichrist will last over 3 years it will be kept short for sake of mercy for in those days after the period of false peace will come a time of suffering like never before upon history of earth.

Isaiah 24 also speaks of such.

17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

revelation 8 also speak of it.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The fall of the earth is dimensional it will shake to ans fro in it orbit path this will cause nation wide earthquakes and tidal-waves and super-storms and many other anomalies , you shall know it is not same because of a darkened sun, a moon that now is seen in the day time and is blood red, as because sun has darkened the days are darker and nights even darker, stars will turn as blood also and move from their places and mankind shall see a object liken to a star of red glow which is wormwood as one the signs in heavens above around time of the fall. The waters reflect the light upon them but all water exposed to air in release of 6th seal when wormwood comes will become toxic to drink, and people who drink it will die in agony upon doing so therefore it will be known to mankind that water is undrinkable that was not contained and sealed, boiling it and filtering it will do no good it will be changed in way that such methods will not work.

Matchmaker
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Matchmaker »

Emmanuel wrote:The leadership will be gathered and given a witness before the time of Antichrist, that they do not fall away, the witness they will be given will not be given to the whole of the church, the members will have to trust their account of it. This meeting will be only for those it is known shall part take in such and it will occur in a mysterious way at the land of Adam Ondi Ahman, no soul not meant to witness such will be able to enter it during that time as it will not be accessible through mysterious ways. Jesus Christ himself shall come in the flesh with many of hosts of Heaven, Therefore they shall indeed become true special witnesses to Christ and his Two Witnesses and the Holy prophets and angels which shall be at that meeting before the time of Antichrist comes.
This will be a most glorious day for them. May we all heed their counsel that they receive from the Lord.

Matchmaker
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Matchmaker »

ldsfireguy wrote: April 23rd, 2009, 10:10 am I can quote my bishop ... :) ... he believes that one of the two is probably Elder Bednar. Actually, he is a very spiritual person with a lot of very neat experiences.

So your Bishop must believe that this will happen in the next few years, before Elder Bednar reaches the position of being the President of the Quorum of the Twelve.

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kittycat51
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by kittycat51 »

I know it is just one man's opinion but I find it sound...David Ridges in his "50 Signs of the Times" book wrote this:

"It is found in Revelations, chapter eleven. We will quote some of the verses here and bold some words and phrases for emphasis. But first, a note about the significant change made here by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In Revelation 11:3, it uses the phrase "two witnesses." This could mean any two people, including two missionaries or whoever. It reads as follows (bold added for emphasis):

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, in D&C 77:15, Joseph Smith changed the word from "witnesses" to "prophets" as follows (bold added for emphasis):

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Thus we understand that these martyrs will necessarily be members of our First Presidency or of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They are all sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" and as such are all prophets. One of my colleagues who was serving as a stake president at the same time I was, told me that one of our Apostles mentioned this in a conversation with him. The Apostle told him that it was a very sobering thing to realize that two of them or their successors would fulfill this prophecy."

Regardless, I believe that whoever it is, the leaders of the Church will not announce that 2 of them are going over to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It would cause a GREAT stir in the Church and around the world. Rather when it happens it will be up to us to discern that it is happening.

RAB
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by RAB »

kittycat51 wrote: April 17th, 2017, 10:30 am I know it is just one man's opinion but I find it sound...David Ridges in his "50 Signs of the Times" book wrote this:

"It is found in Revelations, chapter eleven. We will quote some of the verses here and bold some words and phrases for emphasis. But first, a note about the significant change made here by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In Revelation 11:3, it uses the phrase "two witnesses." This could mean any two people, including two missionaries or whoever. It reads as follows (bold added for emphasis):

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, in D&C 77:15, Joseph Smith changed the word from "witnesses" to "prophets" as follows (bold added for emphasis):

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Thus we understand that these martyrs will necessarily be members of our First Presidency or of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They are all sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" and as such are all prophets. One of my colleagues who was serving as a stake president at the same time I was, told me that one of our Apostles mentioned this in a conversation with him. The Apostle told him that it was a very sobering thing to realize that two of them or their successors would fulfill this prophecy."

Regardless, I believe that whoever it is, the leaders of the Church will not announce that 2 of them are going over to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It would cause a GREAT stir in the Church and around the world. Rather when it happens it will be up to us to discern that it is happening.
Thanks for that quote. It makes more sense to me that an Apostle disclosed it is sobering to think one of them may be called upon to fulfill that mission...not that they know they are the one called upon to do it. I don't believe an Apostle would share that with anyone outside of the Quorum and First Presidency.

Matchmaker
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Matchmaker »

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Last edited by Matchmaker on April 18th, 2017, 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AlbertaBronco
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by AlbertaBronco »

Matchmaker wrote: April 17th, 2017, 4:48 pm When Jeffrey R. Holland is President of the Church, Elder Eyring or Elder Uchtdorf will be President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Elder Bednar will be next in line, and I believe will continue his work in Israel, as he is currently doing. The Lord permitting, I can't imagine Elder Holland wanting anyone else to go over there with Elder Bednar except himself. Elder Holland strikes me as the exceptional kind of man who would never ask someone else to sacrifice in this way, if he could go in their place - something Christ would and did do for us.
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.

Matchmaker
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Matchmaker »

AlbertaBronco wrote: April 17th, 2017, 11:19 pm
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.
[/quote]


I was just sharing my opinion about future events. I was not trying to tell the Lord what to do. I'm sorry I offended you. I deleted my original post. If you wish to delete your post which includes my offensive comment, it's OK with me. Then there will be no written record of what I said that will offend anyone else. Peace to all.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by BruceRGilbert »

kittycat51 wrote: I know it is just one man's opinion but I find it sound...David Ridges in his "50 Signs of the Times" book wrote this:

"It is found in Revelations, chapter eleven. We will quote some of the verses here and bold some words and phrases for emphasis. But first, a note about the significant change made here by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In Revelation 11:3, it uses the phrase "two witnesses." This could mean any two people, including two missionaries or whoever. It reads as follows (bold added for emphasis):

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, in D&C 77:15, Joseph Smith changed the word from "witnesses" to "prophets" as follows (bold added for emphasis):

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Thus we understand that these martyrs will necessarily be members of our First Presidency or of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They are all sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" and as such are all prophets. One of my colleagues who was serving as a stake president at the same time I was, told me that one of our Apostles mentioned this in a conversation with him. The Apostle told him that it was a very sobering thing to realize that two of them or their successors would fulfill this prophecy."

Regardless, I believe that whoever it is, the leaders of the Church will not announce that 2 of them are going over to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It would cause a GREAT stir in the Church and around the world. Rather when it happens it will be up to us to discern that it is happening.
These two witnesses will be of direct-line descent of the House of Israel and not "adopted in" by virtue of "Gentile" conversion. Consider the following discussion for two important points: one for the benefit of disassociated women and the other for the identification of these two individuals. It is possible that these two Prophets will be identified by their "new name."
.
. Another:

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shadow
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by shadow »

The scriptures claim the two will be raised "to" the Jewish Nation, not "from" it. The Gentile Nation, specifically those who've been adopted in (or rather, out) and converted, are tasked with sending the Gospel "to" the world, including to the Jewish Nation.

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shadow
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by shadow »

Matchmaker wrote: April 18th, 2017, 3:24 am
AlbertaBronco wrote: April 17th, 2017, 11:19 pm
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.

I was just sharing my opinion about future events. I was not trying to tell the Lord what to do. I'm sorry I offended you. I deleted my original post. If you wish to delete your post which includes my offensive comment, it's OK with me. Then there will be no written record of what I said that will offend anyone else. Peace to all.
[/quote]
There was nothing wrong with your referenced post. If anyone was offended it's because they didn't grasp much of anything you wrote or they read too much into it. I thought it was a good opinion.

brianj
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by brianj »

AlbertaBronco wrote: April 17th, 2017, 11:19 pm
Matchmaker wrote: April 17th, 2017, 4:48 pm When Jeffrey R. Holland is President of the Church, Elder Eyring or Elder Uchtdorf will be President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Elder Bednar will be next in line, and I believe will continue his work in Israel, as he is currently doing. The Lord permitting, I can't imagine Elder Holland wanting anyone else to go over there with Elder Bednar except himself. Elder Holland strikes me as the exceptional kind of man who would never ask someone else to sacrifice in this way, if he could go in their place - something Christ would and did do for us.
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.
President Monson seems to be getting weaker, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't last until the next general conference. President Nelson seems to be doing very well, and the last time I asked a Seventy about President Nelson I was told that he seems to be getting stronger. Therefore I think it is fair to speculate that Russell Nelson will be the next president of the church. Of course Nelson could die tonight, but I don't think that is very likely.

Assuming President Nelson becomes the president of the church and Elder Oaks becomes the president of the twelve, who is likely to secede President Nelson? Elder Oaks is eight years younger and appears to be in quite good health so I feel safe anticipating Elder Oaks will secede President Nelson.

Then whom? Elder Ballard is older than Elder Oaks so we could expect him to die first, though President Nelson is older than President Monson so this isn't anything more than speculation. Elder Hales is 12 days younger than Elder Oaks, so if he becomes President then he's likely to have a short time in that calling. Next is Elder Holland, who is eight years younger than Oaks and Hales. Odds are very good that Elder Holland will someday be the president of the church.

Following Elder Holland, Elder Bednar is 12 years his junior. Elders Cook, Christofferson, Anderson, and Rasband are older than Elder Bednar so I feel safe anticipating that after Holland we will see Bednar in charge.

But I have a hard time believing that the Second Coming will not happen before Elder Holland can become the president of the church unless accidents, natural disasters, or attacks kill the more senior church leaders. After the Second Coming Jesus will personally lead the church so I don't anticipate the same organization of a First Presidency will continue, unless it continues with Jesus as the president and two counselors assisting.

Beside anticipating who will eventually lead the church, I anticipate that there will be a significant drop in the stock market sometime before the end of summer, I anticipate the Jazz will not win the NBA finals, and thousands of Mormons living in the US will relocate to Utah before the end of the year. I don't believe that my anticipation of these events equates to preemptively telling the Lord what to do.

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mmm..cheese
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by mmm..cheese »

I would just stay open to many of those prophecies being fulfilled in slightly different ways than expected. People thought for years that chapter 12 of revelation spoke of the future, but it was the premortal.

We know things from experience.. why should we fall into the trap of thinking along certain lines only to be headed in entirely the wrong direction?

And then there are those who accuse a RFID chip of being the mark of the beast with certainty... I would say I am definitely skeptical of that..

Matchmaker
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Matchmaker »

brianj wrote: April 18th, 2017, 8:49 pm
AlbertaBronco wrote: April 17th, 2017, 11:19 pm
Matchmaker wrote: April 17th, 2017, 4:48 pm When Jeffrey R. Holland is President of the Church, Elder Eyring or Elder Uchtdorf will be President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Elder Bednar will be next in line, and I believe will continue his work in Israel, as he is currently doing. The Lord permitting, I can't imagine Elder Holland wanting anyone else to go over there with Elder Bednar except himself. Elder Holland strikes me as the exceptional kind of man who would never ask someone else to sacrifice in this way, if he could go in their place - something Christ would and did do for us.
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.
President Monson seems to be getting weaker, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't last until the next general conference. President Nelson seems to be doing very well, and the last time I asked a Seventy about President Nelson I was told that he seems to be getting stronger. Therefore I think it is fair to speculate that Russell Nelson will be the next president of the church. Of course Nelson could die tonight, but I don't think that is very likely.

Assuming President Nelson becomes the president of the church and Elder Oaks becomes the president of the twelve, who is likely to secede President Nelson? Elder Oaks is eight years younger and appears to be in quite good health so I feel safe anticipating Elder Oaks will secede President Nelson.

Then whom? Elder Ballard is older than Elder Oaks so we could expect him to die first, though President Nelson is older than President Monson so this isn't anything more than speculation. Elder Hales is 12 days younger than Elder Oaks, so if he becomes President then he's likely to have a short time in that calling. Next is Elder Holland, who is eight years younger than Oaks and Hales. Odds are very good that Elder Holland will someday be the president of the church.

Following Elder Holland, Elder Bednar is 12 years his junior. Elders Cook, Christofferson, Anderson, and Rasband are older than Elder Bednar so I feel safe anticipating that after Holland we will see Bednar in charge.

But I have a hard time believing that the Second Coming will not happen before Elder Holland can become the president of the church unless accidents, natural disasters, or attacks kill the more senior church leaders. After the Second Coming Jesus will personally lead the church so I don't anticipate the same organization of a First Presidency will continue, unless it continues with Jesus as the president and two counselors assisting.

Beside anticipating who will eventually lead the church, I anticipate that there will be a significant drop in the stock market sometime before the end of summer, I anticipate the Jazz will not win the NBA finals, and thousands of Mormons living in the US will relocate to Utah before the end of the year. I don't believe that my anticipation of these events equates to preemptively telling the Lord what to do.
I agree with your anticipation that thousands of Mormons living in the US will relocate to Utah before the end of the year. A woman I know, who is a realtor in Salt Lake County, told me that there are so many more people wanting houses in Salt Lake County than there is inventory available to accommodate them and that the majority of these buyers are coming from out of state.

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LdsMarco
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by LdsMarco »

Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers. (D&C 77:15)

The Lord's answer to Joseph Smith, reveals that these two prophets were "raised up to the Jewish nation." Isaiah says they were sons of Jerusalem (Isa. 51:20), implying that they were Jewish natives and perhaps separate from the organizational structure of the church. However, Elder Bruce McConkie has commented that they will likely be apostles. For sure, they are prophets.

It is prophesied that the fulness of the Gospel will be taken away from the Gentiles... something to ponder over

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shadow
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by shadow »

brianj wrote: April 18th, 2017, 8:49 pm
AlbertaBronco wrote: April 17th, 2017, 11:19 pm
Matchmaker wrote: April 17th, 2017, 4:48 pm When Jeffrey R. Holland is President of the Church, Elder Eyring or Elder Uchtdorf will be President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Elder Bednar will be next in line, and I believe will continue his work in Israel, as he is currently doing. The Lord permitting, I can't imagine Elder Holland wanting anyone else to go over there with Elder Bednar except himself. Elder Holland strikes me as the exceptional kind of man who would never ask someone else to sacrifice in this way, if he could go in their place - something Christ would and did do for us.
Last time I checked ... president Monson is our prophet and there are many apostles in the line if succession before it gets to elder Holland.

You probably don't want to preemptively tell the Lord who will be in charge.
President Monson seems to be getting weaker, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't last until the next general conference. President Nelson seems to be doing very well, and the last time I asked a Seventy about President Nelson I was told that he seems to be getting stronger. Therefore I think it is fair to speculate that Russell Nelson will be the next president of the church. Of course Nelson could die tonight, but I don't think that is very likely.

Assuming President Nelson becomes the president of the church and Elder Oaks becomes the president of the twelve, who is likely to secede President Nelson? Elder Oaks is eight years younger and appears to be in quite good health so I feel safe anticipating Elder Oaks will secede President Nelson.

Then whom? Elder Ballard is older than Elder Oaks so we could expect him to die first, though President Nelson is older than President Monson so this isn't anything more than speculation. Elder Hales is 12 days younger than Elder Oaks, so if he becomes President then he's likely to have a short time in that calling. Next is Elder Holland, who is eight years younger than Oaks and Hales. Odds are very good that Elder Holland will someday be the president of the church.

Following Elder Holland, Elder Bednar is 12 years his junior. Elders Cook, Christofferson, Anderson, and Rasband are older than Elder Bednar so I feel safe anticipating that after Holland we will see Bednar in charge.

But I have a hard time believing that the Second Coming will not happen before Elder Holland can become the president of the church unless accidents, natural disasters, or attacks kill the more senior church leaders. After the Second Coming Jesus will personally lead the church so I don't anticipate the same organization of a First Presidency will continue, unless it continues with Jesus as the president and two counselors assisting.

Beside anticipating who will eventually lead the church, I anticipate that there will be a significant drop in the stock market sometime before the end of summer, I anticipate the Jazz will not win the NBA finals, and thousands of Mormons living in the US will relocate to Utah before the end of the year. I don't believe that my anticipation of these events equates to preemptively telling the Lord what to do.
Interesting reasoning. As you stated, age really has nothing to do with it. My purely speculative guess is that Nelson, while 92 today, still has 10 years or so left. Heck, the man still goes water skiing! So my guess, solely on my opinion of health and age, is that Nelson will outlive all until Bednar. Holland is possible, but he seems a bit out of shape compared to Nelson. If I were a betting man, and I'm NOT, I'd say Bednar will be the Prophet when the Lord makes His return. Maybe a good 20-25 years away. Of course, none of this matters. The keys and authority will still be here and with the church until and even after the Lord returns. That's all that matters. I'm good with whoever rightfully holds those keys as per the D&C.

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shadow
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by shadow »

LdsMarco wrote: April 19th, 2017, 7:54 pm
It is prophesied that the fulness of the Gospel will be taken away from the Gentiles... something to ponder over
It's also clearly stated that the church will hold all the keys, even after the times of the Gentiles. It'll be the Prophet who, under the direction of the Lord, will call the missionaries home marking the end of the opportunities the Gentiles have of accepting the Gospel.

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Durzan
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Durzan »

shadow wrote: April 19th, 2017, 8:53 pm
LdsMarco wrote: April 19th, 2017, 7:54 pm
It is prophesied that the fulness of the Gospel will be taken away from the Gentiles... something to ponder over
It's also clearly stated that the church will hold all the keys, even after the times of the Gentiles. It'll be the Prophet who, under the direction of the Lord, will call the missionaries home marking the end of the opportunities the Gentiles have of accepting the Gospel.
As yoda wisely once said "...A prophecy misread, perhaps." The statement probably means exactly what it says it means, but there is a chance that there is another layer to it as well. Not to mention that the context and conditions have yet to be revealed in its entirety. Might I put forth the tentative notion that such covenants seen before are typically given upon an implicit condition of righteousness?

Now, wether we are righteous or not, I cannot say one way or the other, but the notion does give us some food for thought, no? Perhaps the things we think we know and understand will be unexpectedly turned upon their heads in the near future...

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LDS Physician
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by LDS Physician »

shadow wrote: April 30th, 2009, 2:43 pm
Kurt wrote: I still find it interesting that the moon has already turned to blood as others have stated on this thread?
Have you ever been down wind of a major fire at night?? The moon will look red, even blood red at times.
I've always felt that the moon appearing to be red when viewed through smoke is certainly not the fulfillment of the prophecy. After all, the moon has ALWAYS looked red when it is looked at through smoke. It seems silly to think that a natural, every-day occurrence could be the fulfillment of a last-days prophecy.

It would be like saying "the Lord will come again to Jerusalem when clouds float above your heads"

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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Older/wiser? »

Durzan wrote: April 19th, 2017, 9:27 pm
shadow wrote: April 19th, 2017, 8:53 pm
LdsMarco wrote: April 19th, 2017, 7:54 pm
It is prophesied that the fulness of the Gospel will be taken away from the Gentiles... something to ponder over
It's also clearly stated that the church will hold all the keys, even after the times of the Gentiles. It'll be the Prophet who, under the direction of the Lord, will call the missionaries home marking the end of the opportunities the Gentiles have of accepting the Gospel.
As yoda wisely once said "...A prophecy misread, perhaps." The statement probably means exactly what it says it means, but there is a chance that there is another layer to it as well. Not to mention that the context and conditions have yet to be revealed in its entirety. Might I put forth the tentative notion that such covenants seen before are typically given upon an implicit condition of righteousness?

Now, wether we are righteous or not, I cannot say one way or the other, but the notion does give us some food for thought, no? Perhaps the things we think we know and understand will be unexpectedly turned upon their heads in the near future...
Well there's this D&C 5:14. To receive this same testimony among this generation, of the rising up and coming forth of my church out of the wilderness----clear as the moon, fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. Repeated in reverse in section105:31. Just an interesting use of symbols, there is no power in the moon, it's reflects the light of the sun and rules in the darkness. Just saying something to think about.

etamez
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by etamez »

Joppa wrote: April 23rd, 2009, 9:11 am I just wondered what your idea's were for the two witnesses that are supposed to be in Jerusalem preaching for 3 and a half years. Do you guys have any interesting quotes about it. I've been trying to find out more information on them, but only have found quotes from The Pratt brothers, and Bruce R McConkie. Just wondering if you guys have any other quotes. Also if you don't or do have other quotes, what is your opinion of them. Are they alive? Are they currently in the quorum of the twelve? I'd just like to here your thoughts.
I don't believe they will be members of the Church...they will be raised up by the Lord...they will be Jews...

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Book of Ruth
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Re: Two Witness in Jerusalem

Post by Book of Ruth »

What about Pres. Oaks who is literally a judge and expert in law and interpreting the law, which jewish traditions are very law of Moses . Meaning more rigid in following the law than following the Spirit.

And, Elder Bednar I think he will be one of the witnesses as well.

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