What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

[nocommentcaptain of 10]

I know this topic has been submitted before, but below is the full transcript from W. Cleon Skousen (1999)

Please note I am not implying this is doctrinally accurate, it is just an interesting read worth a bit of discussion.

http://ldsremnant.com/content/view/15/33/

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

Dang... this is really good. I wonder if Obama could be the first dictator? If you take the 2011 theory of opening the 7th seal, it would fit very nicely with Obama. I still need to finish it up.

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

I'm confused about the sixth seal. While I agree in principle with Dr. Skousen on this (that the year 2,000) begins the seventh seal, I don't know how exact that has to be. What I disagree with is the fact that I believe we are still in the sixth seal period. Revelations records it as such:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So THIS is qualifying event for the sixth seal, and it subtly happens and expires before we know about it? Dr. Skousen does not address that fact that the signifying event is a large worldwide earthquake that last long enough that it looks like the stars are falling from the sky, that EVERY mountain and island are moved out of their place, and that it is so devastating that the GREAT MEN of the earth, as well as the poor try to hide themselves in the rocks and dens fearing that this is IT, the Second Coming.

For me, the parallel here is the miracle in 3 Nephi when the day becomes a day a night and a day, and there is a new star in the sky. It causes temporary wonder so much that ALL MEN fall to the Earth and signifies to the believers that the day of the Lord's coming to them is at hand. It's another 34 years before he does really come in glory to them, so that would somewhat coincide with a silence in the heavens.

What is the silence in the heavens? For me, this signifies that the earth is quiet, the heavens are quiet, that there is a sense of "normalcy" that is present. It would also suggest that the silence would follow after sort of "loudness" in the heavens and earth, when things are in turmoil. The big question is, are we truly in the kind of turmoil or have been as John has forseen? I think we are not, for I do not see a significant amount of GREAT MEN hiding in the rocks and dens of the earth.

And I may be mistaken. There are those that would say that the signs in Revelations are subtle, that only those that have eyes to see and ears to hear would see that these things have already happened. Indeed from a historical millennialist perspective, they have. WWI and WWII themselves, bombs could have signified stars falling from the heavens, pollutions could signify the sun and moon darkening, the moon turning to "blood." I strain to see where the mountains and valleys moving out of their way would qualify, but there has been an uptick in these kinds of natural disasters, so I can this possibly being fulfilled as well. To add in D&C, we have seen the sea heaving itself beyond its bounds, and desolating sicknesses such as AIDS.

It just seems like a stretch to me. I say we're still in the sixth seal.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Theoretically, the year 2000-3000 should be the millennium, however, we have been told that the 6th and 7th seals overlap and that Christ's return occurs after the 6th seal is closed but before the 7th is opened. We're in that time period now. I like to refer to it as the half hour of silence we are told about (silence in heaven for the space of a half hour), which equates to approximately 21 years (if you go by the 1,000 years to us is 1 day to the Lord analogy). I'm not 100% sure if that's the case or not, but if it is, then sometime between 2021 and 2022 would be the opening of the 7th seal, but Christ returns before that, meaning we could be looking at his return within the next 12-13 years.

[ShawnCMinion]

Theoretically, the year 2000-3000 should be the millennium, however, we have been told that the 6th and 7th seals overlap and that Christ's return occurs after the 6th seal is closed but before the 7th is opened. We're in that time period now. I like to refer to it as the half hour of silence we are told about (silence in heaven for the space of a half hour), which equates to approximately 21 years (if you go by the 1,000 years to us is 1 day to the Lord analogy). I'm not 100% sure if that's the case or not, but if it is, then sometime between 2021 and 2022 would be the opening of the 7th seal, but Christ returns before that, meaning we could be looking at his return within the next 12-13 years.

Not sure about this Col. Rev. 8:1 says...

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

The silence comes after the seventh seal is opened.

On that note, curious what people think? Are we in the seventh seal yet. Has it been opened and are we in the 21 years (if that is what it is) of silence. Does silence in the heavens mean that God does not speak to his prophets? Is there new revelation? Etc. Etc. Etc.?

I ask because in GD on Sunday I was asking a question as to why the need to distinguish between early saints and "latter day saints" in the churches name. A woman said something about because we are in the seventh seal. Just got me thinking.

Anyone?

Shawn

[rockycaptain of 10]

I was reading Revelations last night and when I read these verses and I thought of Obama

Revelations 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I think it could be possible that Obama is the first dictatorship. Which he will rule for 42 months

Also when I think of the second dictatorship that John talks about is the Antichrist. John talks about how he will cause everyone to have the Mark of the Beast in the right hand. I think this could happen really soon. I think the Mark of the beast of RFID chips and they already have the technology and resource to produce this for the masses.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

I like the thread mullenite had by Dr. Cohen (I think) explaining that the seventh seal opens in 2011 (or 2012). It talks about how Jesus is the one who opens the seal and wouldnt be doing that wheile he was an infant and that is part of the reason there is the story about when he was 11 (in his twelfth year) knowing who he is and going into his fathers house to teach. This makes perfect sense to me. Also it talks about the silence in the heavens being that the preparation time for the destroying angels and return of Christ is over and the destruction begins. Looks like Cleon Skousen agrees with that, and pretty much all the terrible things will coincide with the silence in the heavens. Again this makes sense to me.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

We can not forget, that the seventh seal does not begin until all keys have been passed to Christ and he reigns personally upon the earth. This has not happened yet, because President Monson still holds the keys. This transfer of keys will happen at Adam-ondi-ahmen. I would not put to much weight into what Skousen says, he has no stewardship such as the apostles and prophets and is just a good speaker and book writer. He made some predictions in a stake conference I attended in AZ years ago about Russia that were totally false and the person he said would do certain things, didnt.
I know many put a lot of weight in what Skousen says, but just remember he has no authority to speak representing Christ in these matters.

[willcaptain of 100]

The New Jeruselem has to be built first, I wounder How this plays out?

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

Will
In a sense the new temple just outside of Independence may be part of the New Jerusalem.

[ShawnCMinion]

I like the thread mullenite had by Dr. Cohen (I think) explaining that the seventh seal opens in 2011 (or 2012). It talks about how Jesus is the one who opens the seal and wouldnt be doing that wheile he was an infant and that is part of the reason there is the story about when he was 11 (in his twelfth year) knowing who he is and going into his fathers house to teach. This makes perfect sense to me. Also it talks about the silence in the heavens being that the preparation time for the destroying angels and return of Christ is over and the destruction begins. Looks like Cleon Skousen agrees with that, and pretty much all the terrible things will coincide with the silence in the heavens. Again this makes sense to me.

Interesting. Thank you.

[ShawnCMinion]

We can not forget, that the seventh seal does not begin until all keys have been passed to Christ and he reigns personally upon the earth.

I know a lot of references have been going around. I probably missed some. Do you have references for this?

Shawn

[willcaptain of 100]

Will
In a sense the new temple just outside of Independence may be part of the New Jerusalem.

I hope so. I am so sick and tired of the Babylon.

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

This is just one of the prophets who speaks on this issue. If you want more, let me know and I will see if I can find them.
The seventh seal does not begin until the keys are transferred, and the seals do not overlap. Revelations tells you what will happen when the sixth seal is open, but it gives all the events up to the coming of Christ to Jerusalem which includes events that will happen when the seventh seal is opened. Each seal states the events that occur when that seal is opened all the way up to the Coming of Christ to Jerusalem. When a seal is opened the seal is not put back on the book. The events of that seal being loosed can continue to occur into the next seal.
Here is the reference:

This council in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman is to be of the greatest importance to this world. At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and imposter, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reigns of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled. This grand council of Priesthood will be composed, not only of those who are faithful who now dwell on this earth, but also of the prophets and apostles of old, who have had directing authority. Others may also be there, but if so they will be there by appointment, for this is to be an official council called to attend to the most momentous matters concerning the destiny of this earth.When this gathering is held, the world will not know of it; the members of the Church at large will not know of it, yet it shall be preparatory to the coming in the clouds of glory of our Savior Jesus Christ as the Prophet Joseph Smith has said. The world cannot know of it. The Saints cannot know of it-except those who officially shall be called into this council-for it shall precede the coming of Jesus Christ as a thief in the night, unbeknown to all the world.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Way to Perfection, p. 291

But Doctrine and Covenants 77 states that the seventh seal and the seventh thousand years coincide. That being the case, the Millennium will have begun before the Second Coming at the time the Savior begins to reign on this earth at the great council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman. According to Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, "At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and imposter, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reigns of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled."
Richard D. Draper, Opening of the Seven Seals, P. 95

[ryanjenny1997captain of 100]

Here are some quick tid bits. This is simplified and not very detailed.


remember that there is a separation of 6th and 7th seals by the calling of the 144000. They are called at end of 6th seal.

1. Before the 7th seal The 144000 must come by way of great earthquake form the north.

2. Before the 144000 can return The temple in Independence is to be built for something for them to come too-assist

3. Before the temple can be built, jackson County must be cleansed by something??? war, collapse, etc

4. Before we can return to a cleansed Independence, one like unto Moses will lead us back by power (pres of church)

5. Before Moses can lead us back, we must be let go from the government (501 tax, etc) and we as a people must learn to live the laws of Zion (United Order, etc) no more rich and poor.

6. Also before we can go back, the times of gentiles must be fulfilled, and the Indians (Jacob) will rise up like a Lion among the Lamb, etc)

6. Before we as a people can wake up and live Zion, we must be tried and purged (happening now)

All this and more is all 6th seal.

7th seal, the beast, anti-christ, 10 kings (not preparatory like now) , 2 prophets, iAdam ondi ahman is yet to come. Obama is simply Pharoah whom will get spanked by the Lord's servant. This Maitreya person might or might not be the false prophet, if they are they will not take on full scope of mission until 7th seal.

Right now the NWO mission has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with world power. After their plans get spanked back a bit (boys from the west saving army and constitution, etc) the real beast will rise. WW3 will give the beast its power as the 10 rocking kings get subdued by Anti-christ in 7th seal. This beast will have one problem, not Peru, or France ,, or Georgia (by this time there part of beast) it will be Israel. Nero 2 will take place.


**** remember, the mark of the beast you must deny Jesus, so enough of SS #'s and Real Id's etc. You must deny him.

*** Also The anti-christ whom subdues 3 kings will come from (debatable) Ezekial 38 (if memory serves) from Russia/Turkey area.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

What prophet tells us the sixth and seventh seals overlap?

Bob

[lamanite_mormonGirlcaptain of 100]

Please correct me if I'm wrong didn't the church announce a few years back that we were starting a millenial mission. I vaguely remember something to that. I hate to say this out in the open cuz you never know who is watching or tracking forums such as this for trouble makers, but B.O. could very well be the first dictator.

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

Nobody has taken point with my quotation of Revelations about what has to happen in the sixth seal that has not happened - a massive worldwide earthquake. for those that believe we're in the seventh seal, how do you get beyond that?

[nocommentcaptain of 10]

Refer to the below quotes from the Old Testament Student Manual: 1 Kings–Malachi page 294

(I-8) Armageddon: The Deliverance

In what will be one of the blackest moments of Israel's history, just as it appears that they are about to be annihilated, the Lord's fury will be unleashed upon the kingdoms of the world (see Ezekiel 38:18), and the Lord will "go forth, and fight against those nations" (Zechariah 14:3).

1. The two prophets, lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem, will be resurrected in the sight of the people (see Revelation 11:11–12): "But after three days and a half, on a sudden, the spirit of life from God will enter them; they will arise and stand upon their feet, and great fear will fall upon them that see them. And then they shall hear a voice from heaven saying, 'Come up hither,' and they will ascend up to heaven in a cloud, with their enemies beholding them." (Pratt, Voice of Warning, p. 33.)

2. A great earthquake will strike the earth, affecting the whole world—the greatest earthquake the world has ever known (see Revelation 11:13; 16:18; Ezekiel 38:19–20; Haggai 2:6–7).

Elder McConkie taught:

"Three natural changes in the earth—all apparently growing out of one transcendent happening—are here named [Revelation 16:17–21] as attending our Lord's Second Coming. They are:

"1. Earth's land masses shall unite; islands and continents shall become one land.

"2. Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain shall be made low; the rugged terrain of today shall level out into a millennial garden.

"3. Such an earthquake as has never been known since man's foot was planted on this planet shall attend these changes in the earth's surface and appearance.

"And, fourthly, as recorded elsewhere, the great deep—presumably the Atlantic ocean—shall return to its place in the north, 'and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.' (D. & C. 133:21–24.)" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:543.)

This quake will evidently create a huge spring in Jerusalem which will form a new river, flowing westward to the Mediterranean Sea and eastward to the Dead Sea (see Zechariah 14:8–9; Joel 3:18; Ezekiel 47:1–5). Because of this river, the Dead Sea will have its waters healed, that is, it will become a lake with verdant foliage surrounding its shores and fish teeming in its waters (see Ezekiel 47:6–12; Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 286)

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

[ryanjenny1997captain of 100]

[quote="pjbrownie"]I'm confused about the sixth seal. While I agree in principle with Dr. Skousen on this (that the year 2,000) begins the seventh seal, I don't know how exact that has to be. What I disagree with is the fact that I believe we are still in the sixth seal period. Revelations records it as such:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Hello, If we read what scripture says, it never says the great earthquake is at the beginning of the 6th seal. It might be assumed. All we know is the 6th seal is opened.....during the 6th seal a great earthquake.

Now, has anything qualified as such...I think not. This earthquake is spiritually significant as well as worldwide. It has not happened yet.

Remember, we are in the 6th seal still. 144000 are still not called. For them to be called we have to have the 10 tribes come from the North. Have they? For them to come from the North we have to have the Temple in Jac County..do we? etc

where are the meteors during 6th seal? where are the kings hiding themselves in the dens of rocks in 6th seal(WW3 Norad, etc. Times of the gentiles have not even been fulfilled yet.

Space of half hour might be after the war the picking up of the pieces, as the beast rises out of the sea. The current preliminary beast will seem to die, but will come back even stronger.

All that is happening is preliminary. World wars are necessary to advance NWO. WW1 league of nations....WW2 United Nations....WW3 the evolution of the UN. This is the war that will be judged on America. This is the time where Israel will rise up. Then later in 7th seal when Anti-Christ controls trade of world, Israel will be the last hurdle for the beast.

As for Obama, he is not from SW russia/Turkey area where Anti-Christ will come from. He is Pharoah whom will meet Moses who will come DC103. Remember all the parallels of past complimenting the future. Symbols, types, shadows. One like unto Moses will lead this people, what did Moses do in Egypt? What will the future moses do? Think about it!

[firendcaptain of 1,000]

From the little I have studied I agree with most of your points. I know people have been going off for decades about "this is it" rapture and all that. There is obviously so much left to do on the calendar!. Think of what has to happen just to get us back to Independence, let alone 10 tribes going back to Israel, the temple in Jerusalem, etc.

You your Obama thing is pretty fitting. Pharoah was decent of cain I think, so Obama seems to be. Interesting parallels could be? I know Obama's followers refer to him as "the one" and that has some egyptian parallels. It would be cool for Moses to come and lead us back to the promised land like in Exodus. Cool! a modern day exodus back to Mo. Love it!

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

From the little I have studied I agree with most of your points. I know people have been going off for decades about "this is it" rapture and all that. There is obviously so much left to do on the calendar!. Think of what has to happen just to get us back to Independence, let alone 10 tribes going back to Israel, the temple in Jerusalem, etc.

You your Obama thing is pretty fitting. Pharoah was decent of cain I think, so Obama seems to be. Interesting parallels could be? I know Obama's followers refer to him as "the one" and that has some egyptian parallels. It would be cool for Moses to come and lead us back to the promised land like in Exodus. Cool! a modern day exodus back to Mo. Love it!

You are correct, except don't get caught up in "all the things that have to happen first" as a belief that things won't happen quickly. If you do study your scriptures, you will find that the modern kingdoms of the Earth (West Europe and America) when they fall, it will be almost overnight. This precipitates most of what you just listed here and that can happen very rapidly. Study the "fig tree," ie signs of the last days and you will get closer to understanding how close the harvest is. You may not know the absolute timeframe, but you WILL know the relative timeframe if you study it out. You will know that a destructive plague must occur in Israel (America), economic and violent devastation of Zion followed by war and cleansing (in one day by fire, ie, Nukes), and a major worldwide earthquake. I don't know exactly what in my list must come first, but we are starting to see worldwide economic devastation which is almost always followed by a world war. We barely dip our toe into Revelations in this list I've outlined (mostly taken from Isaiah and the Book of Mormon). The key to knowing how close we are is knowing first that these events signal the end of the Times of the Gentiles. What causes the end of the Times of Gentiles? Rejection of the gospel by them (Gentile nations are considered Europe and America mostly). Persecution of the Saints by them; persecution of the missionaries. The abandonment of modern Israel. Finally, the missionaries being called home is a BIG signal that these winding-up scenes are about to occur.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

I agree alot with you pj. I still think that the seventh seal didnt open in 2000 it's more like 2011-2012. I think that things are probably set in place for things that need setting up and they could be set up VERY quickly and I think many things could happen all at the same time. I think that far too many people think that we have more time than we do. Things are getting interesting.

[firendcaptain of 1,000]

Hi PJ

Ya I agree with you that things are going to happen quickly. I hope I did not sound like "all is well we have time" It does seem we are in it now for real!

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

Yeah I get alot of nay-saying from backslider friends of mine, New-Order or cultural Mormons, ex- Mormons, and my family that pooh-pooh any talk of the Second Coming. They use the fact that people have been yelling about the apocalypse since the time of Jesus--and no Jesus. First, they are wrong. It's true some people thought that the Second Coming was imminent in the New Testament times, but Paul, Peter, and John set them straight. There must be a falling away first and a "refreshing of times." During the early Catholic Chuch and Dark ages, the Second Coming was viewed as embodied by the Pope and Catholicism covering Europe as a sort of symbolic Millennium. the Reformation was no different, most early Protestants were a-millennialists who believed in a sort of Hegelian milliennium (later Karl Marx picked up on this belief). It wasn't until the 1600's that you really have people begin to look forward to an actual Second Coming of Christ. And its true that people have read their own wishes into some scriptures hoping they were the people to usher it in, from the Puritans to the Shakers - and mostly in America. America has always been looked to as a place for neo-Israelism up an until the mid-19th Century. Failure of prophecies to come true in Christianity has set back a literal belief in the Second Coming since 1900 among many Christians. Darbyism has allowed many Evangelicals to re-invent it in a sort of post-rapture world where they don't have to be accountable for any misplaced prophecies.

Many individuals and sects have incorrectly predicted the Second Coming of the winding-up scenes to the Second Coming did so out of an incomplete understanding of the scriptures INCLUDING our own (first and foremost, that we must reach the year 2,000 as the seals in Revelations indicate, of course we didn't know that until Joseph Smith). Even our own church as been incorrect in placing almost three times when the cleansing of Israel would occur (Zions Camp, Utah War, and the Manifesto period). Yet, they must not have believed the Doctine & Covenants when it states that the seventh seal wouldn't even start until after the year 2,000. We also have to be able to have World Wars, a world government, the ability for a war to burn everything in one day, etc. Look at the "fig tree" to see how relatively close we are. In dire straits, people always thing things are coming to an end, even in WWII, but WWII didn't fit the pattern outlined in Isaiah where one empire was destroyed in one day through burning, and another comes out of the sea (naval invasions, there was only one naval invastion - Normany - but it didn't fit the pattern since the invasion must be on modern Israelite soil, aka America).

[ryanjenny1997captain of 100]

well said pj