Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

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Z2100
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Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Z2100 »

Recently, I have had the wonderful privilege to attend the every-two-years "pilgrimage" with the youth of my Ward to the Arizona Training Center in Coolidge (AZ). This training center houses people with various mental disabilities and deficiencies. I have pondered about why they were born with such terrible ailments. As we were going to pick-up a sweet man named "Walking Man", an employee there told us about how he had heard, about 15 years ago,a 16 year old with down syndrome who received a patriarchal blessing (the employee read the blessing, too). The man who gave the boy a blessing told him that he was a great spirit in the pre-existence who helped fight Satan and ultimately cast him down from heaven and he was to be "molested no more by Satan" in his Earth-life. Everyone in our group were astonished. So the main questions are:

1. Why did they get the bodies that they have?
2. Are they really protected from Satan?
3. Did they do something great in the Pre-Existence?
4. Are the most of these "special spirits" born at the end of the 6th seal (now)?

I heard on another thread that we must've sinned or have done something in the past that made us have the life we had. I can't remember the thread name. Anyways, share your thoughts on what you've learned from past experiences...

Related Articles:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/hom ... n-6432533
https://www.lds.org/topics/disability/s ... &old=true
https://askgramps.org/would-mentally-ha ... irits-who/
http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/mormon-handicaps/



-Z2100
Last edited by Z2100 on June 6th, 2017, 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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inho
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by inho »

I think this us relevant for the discussion:
John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

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kittycat51
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by kittycat51 »

I have always personally believed that we knew the problems we would have before coming to earth and that we agreed to them. In that same sense I think these "Special Spirits" knew and may have even volunteered for this earthly challenge. Valiant spirits indeed, and automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

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mcusick
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by mcusick »

Shining lights like John the Baptist (John 5:35) come to impart their light, not conceal it under a basket.

Mental disabilities cause us to take a step back and ask questions about God's plan, much like a child who dies early in life and is not permitted to be "proven". I don't have the answer for why either case exists and the reasons for them, but it seems bizarre to me that God would take a bunch of his "best spirits" out of the fight, so to speak.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by LDS Physician »

I have heard (and I'm not young) from my youth that developmentally disabled and severely mentally ill individuals were "so righteous and special in the pre-existence that Heavenly Father had to make them this way so that Satan couldn't go after them."

Even then and especially now this smacks of untruth. Can you imagine HF thinking, "Hmmmm...Satan is really ticked off at these particular sons and daughters and he's really going to go after them, guess I'll have to make them severely retarded or, hey, ya, schizophrenic!"

I just don't buy it.

I think mortality is an imperfect condition. We're all on a bell curve. There will be a few who are profoundly mentally deficient, most who are average, and a few who are genius. I believe that in most cases these "challenges" are given to a small percentage of human beings in all likelihood randomly. I do believe as stated above that we likely accepted whatever we were to go through.

The fact remains that we're only judged on what we understand and know...so these people get less than the average person so they're judged differently. It's just wonderful that we have a perfect judge!

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BringerOfJoy
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by BringerOfJoy »

I don't have all the answers about this, to be sure, BUT many years ago I baby-sat a friend's son for a week so they could get a VERY much needed reprieve. Their son had Cerebral Palsy, and was in the severe and profound category: He was never going to walk or talk or feed himself. It was, frankly, the hardest thing I have ever done, and I spent a lot of time in tears that week. But, partway through that week, I did get the distinct impression that I wasn't dealing with just anyone here. This one was indeed "special." When I mentioned it to his mom later, she mentioned that the same thing had come through in a blessing he had received. Interestingly, he had a perfectly normal older sibling and two perfectly normal younger sibs.

EmmaLee
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by EmmaLee »

Z2100 wrote: June 6th, 2017, 12:16 pmThe man who gave the boy a blessing told him that he was a great spirit in the pre-existence who helped fight Satan and ultimately cast him down from heaven and he was to be "molested no more by Satan" in his Earth-life. Everyone in our group were astonished.
If I had a dime for every time I've heard that exact same story over the last 5 decades, I would be fairly wealthy. I agree with LDS Physician and mcusick - seems a bizarre thing for God to do with his "most special spirits" (I thought he was not a respecter of persons? aren't we all equally "special" to our Father? Gosh, I don't consider one of my children more "special" than the others). Things like this are mostly (if not entirely) in the category of 'faith promoting rumors'. As to why people are born with disabilities (and we ALL have them, some more severe than others), the scripture inho posted gives the answer. Best viewed as a teaching tool and an exercise in faith - for the person with the disability, and those around them. My .02.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Ls.org will have a boatload on this subject.

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evejaa
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by evejaa »

Please don't call Heavenly Father "HF". It is so disrespectful. It's like Xmas. Thank you members.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by Bronco73idi »

EmmaLee wrote: June 6th, 2017, 7:38 pm seems a bizarre thing for God to do with his "most special spirits" (I thought he was not a respecter of persons? aren't we all equally "special" to our Father?
I don't think so, if that was true he wouldn't have accepted Noah's curse on Canaan.

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Robin Hood »

These people have the bodies/minds they have in order to protect them from Lucifer and his cohorts.
They are innocent and cannot sin. Because of this, Lucifer doesn't waste his time on them.

Z2100
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Z2100 »

Robin Hood wrote: June 7th, 2017, 8:00 am These people have the bodies/minds they have in order to protect them from Lucifer and his cohorts.
They are innocent and cannot sin. Because of this, Lucifer doesn't waste his time on them.

But WHY exactly are they protected?

Z2100
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by Z2100 »

LDS Physician wrote: June 6th, 2017, 4:41 pm I have heard (and I'm not young) from my youth that developmentally disabled and severely mentally ill individuals were "so righteous and special in the pre-existence that Heavenly Father had to make them this way so that Satan couldn't go after them."

Even then and especially now this smacks of untruth. Can you imagine HF thinking, "Hmmmm...Satan is really ticked off at these particular sons and daughters and he's really going to go after them, guess I'll have to make them severely retarded or, hey, ya, schizophrenic!"

I just don't buy it.

I think mortality is an imperfect condition. We're all on a bell curve. There will be a few who are profoundly mentally deficient, most who are average, and a few who are genius. I believe that in most cases these "challenges" are given to a small percentage of human beings in all likelihood randomly. I do believe as stated above that we likely accepted whatever we were to go through.

The fact remains that we're only judged on what we understand and know...so these people get less than the average person so they're judged differently. It's just wonderful that we have a perfect judge!

I have a question for you, if you don’t mind. Do you think we were chosen to be born in a certain time-period in World History because it was essential to our salvation or were we just randomly chosen to come here at the end of the 6th seal or another time period? God ALWAYS has reasons for everything.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Robin Hood »

Z2100 wrote: June 7th, 2017, 11:34 am
Robin Hood wrote: June 7th, 2017, 8:00 am These people have the bodies/minds they have in order to protect them from Lucifer and his cohorts.
They are innocent and cannot sin. Because of this, Lucifer doesn't waste his time on them.

But WHY exactly are they protected?
In my view, because they have already demonstrated unflinching loyalty to God sufficient to earn them salvation in the celestial kingdom.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Elizabeth »

Personally, I do not believe it was the Lords intention, but rather the result of chemicals or some other unknown unintended tragic cause... as also with other inflictions and diseases encountered in mortality.

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Durzan
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Durzan »

Robin Hood wrote: June 7th, 2017, 2:26 pm
Z2100 wrote: June 7th, 2017, 11:34 am
Robin Hood wrote: June 7th, 2017, 8:00 am These people have the bodies/minds they have in order to protect them from Lucifer and his cohorts.
They are innocent and cannot sin. Because of this, Lucifer doesn't waste his time on them.

But WHY exactly are they protected?
In my view, because they have already demonstrated unflinching loyalty to God sufficient to earn them salvation in the celestial kingdom.
This. Though I would point out that there are some special spirits who are already sealed up, yet are perfectly normal. Why? These are the ones that come down, not to be tested, but to help others through, and to guide them to the Celestial Kingdom.

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mmm..cheese
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by mmm..cheese »

I am ready to believe that people are all born according to a well designed plan, but the reasons for something like people being born with some disease can be completely different. Do you think people born rich are blessed or cursed? We don't analyze such a thing so simply so why do that with the mentally impaired?

We were sent to earth to be tried and saved. Valiance comes in many forms.. who would be here in the first place if they had not valiantly received the plan of salvation to begin with? Today is the day where I think the noble ones might be expressed in how they are noble.

brianj
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by brianj »

evejaa wrote: June 6th, 2017, 9:19 pm Please don't call Heavenly Father "HF". It is so disrespectful. It's like Xmas. Thank you members.
Actually it's not the letter X, but Χ - the Greek letter chi. Christ in Greek is Χριστός. The letter Χ, the first letter of Χριστός, was used by early Christians as a way of secretly identifying themselves to one another. Χmas is not inherently disrespectful.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

evejaa wrote: June 6th, 2017, 9:19 pm Please don't call Heavenly Father "HF". It is so disrespectful. It's like Xmas. Thank you members.


Evejaa, maybe that person meant 'Holy Father', in which case it would not be disrespectful...
:ymdevil:

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LDS Physician
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by LDS Physician »

Z2100 wrote: June 7th, 2017, 11:38 am
LDS Physician wrote: June 6th, 2017, 4:41 pm I have heard (and I'm not young) from my youth that developmentally disabled and severely mentally ill individuals were "so righteous and special in the pre-existence that Heavenly Father had to make them this way so that Satan couldn't go after them."

Even then and especially now this smacks of untruth. Can you imagine HF thinking, "Hmmmm...Satan is really ticked off at these particular sons and daughters and he's really going to go after them, guess I'll have to make them severely retarded or, hey, ya, schizophrenic!"

I just don't buy it.

I think mortality is an imperfect condition. We're all on a bell curve. There will be a few who are profoundly mentally deficient, most who are average, and a few who are genius. I believe that in most cases these "challenges" are given to a small percentage of human beings in all likelihood randomly. I do believe as stated above that we likely accepted whatever we were to go through.

The fact remains that we're only judged on what we understand and know...so these people get less than the average person so they're judged differently. It's just wonderful that we have a perfect judge!

I have a question for you, if you don’t mind. Do you think we were chosen to be born in a certain time-period in World History because it was essential to our salvation or were we just randomly chosen to come here at the end of the 6th seal or another time period? God ALWAYS has reasons for everything.
I'm sure he does, I just am not convinced that every mentally disabled person is so extra special that they had to be given their disability so that Satan wouldn't kill them.

Additionally, in the history of the world, there have been literally hundreds of millions of mentally devastated individuals...they all couldn't have thrown Satan off the cliff in the pre-existence.

brianj
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by brianj »

Z2100 wrote: June 6th, 2017, 12:16 pm 1. Why did they get the bodies that they have?
2. Are they really protected from Satan?
3. Did they do something great in the Pre-Existence?
4. Are the most of these "special spirits" born at the end of the 6th seal (now)?
I didn't see any answers that really satisfied me so...
1) We don't know. One day all will be revealed and we have to wait until then to find out.
2) I believe so. We are taught that little children can't be tempted until they begin to become accountable, so why should we expect those who never develop the mental faculties for real accountability to be tempted?
We really don't know why these people won't develop the mental faculties to be accountable, but contemplate infant and childhood mortality before modern medicine. I would not be surprised to learn that a majority of those born didn't survive until their eighth birthday. Right now we probably look at them and think they're so lucky because they don't have to endure what we face in mortality, but one day we will get to know those people and learn that they view us as the lucky ones because we did have the opportunity to endure what we face in mortality.
3) I have a problem with the idea that some were so righteous in premortality that they don't need to be tested. We have also heard that valiant spirits were chosen for this day because that strength would be needed to stick with truth. We will have to wait until all is revealed to learn why we get to experience a full life and others don't.
4) I don't know if we have any reason to believe either way. Perhaps there is an increase due to women waiting too long to become mothers, the way food is processed, or other environmental factors. The only thing I can say for sure is that it isn't an accident of genetics or chemistry. Heavenly Father wouldn't let something so important happen by accident.

Z2100
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Z2100 »

brianj wrote: June 8th, 2017, 10:05 pm
Z2100 wrote: June 6th, 2017, 12:16 pm 1. Why did they get the bodies that they have?
2. Are they really protected from Satan?
3. Did they do something great in the Pre-Existence?
4. Are the most of these "special spirits" born at the end of the 6th seal (now)?
I didn't see any answers that really satisfied me so...
1) We don't know. One day all will be revealed and we have to wait until then to find out.
2) I believe so. We are taught that little children can't be tempted until they begin to become accountable, so why should we expect those who never develop the mental faculties for real accountability to be tempted?
We really don't know why these people won't develop the mental faculties to be accountable, but contemplate infant and childhood mortality before modern medicine. I would not be surprised to learn that a majority of those born didn't survive until their eighth birthday. Right now we probably look at them and think they're so lucky because they don't have to endure what we face in mortality, but one day we will get to know those people and learn that they view us as the lucky ones because we did have the opportunity to endure what we face in mortality.
3) I have a problem with the idea that some were so righteous in premortality that they don't need to be tested. We have also heard that valiant spirits were chosen for this day because that strength would be needed to stick with truth. We will have to wait until all is revealed to learn why we get to experience a full life and others don't.
4) I don't know if we have any reason to believe either way. Perhaps there is an increase due to women waiting too long to become mothers, the way food is processed, or other environmental factors. The only thing I can say for sure is that it isn't an accident of genetics or chemistry. Heavenly Father wouldn't let something so important happen by accident.

We will never know why certain people have these things. Luckily, the Lord will reveal this during the Millennium.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by Elizabeth »

"we don’t know what disrupted the development of the embryo, although in some cases a mother’s exposure to certain drugs or chemicals during pregnancy may be the cause.
One of the best known examples is thalidomide, a drug prescribed to pregnant women in the 1950s and 1960s to treat morning sickness but caused some 10,000 children worldwide to be born with significant birth defects.
Although absent or short limbs were among the most common birth defects reported, some babies had extra toes.
The drug was commonly taken in the first trimester of pregnancy when morning sickness is more common and when, coincidentally, the embryo develops most rapidly."
https://theconversation.com/an-extra-or ... hink-76523
.

butterfly
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Re: Questions about Heavenly Father’s "Special Spirits"

Post by butterfly »

Robin Hood wrote: June 7th, 2017, 8:00 am These people have the bodies/minds they have in order to protect them from Lucifer and his cohorts.
They are innocent and cannot sin. Because of this, Lucifer doesn't waste his time on them.
I know you're talking about people with disabilities being protected from spiritual death by not being tempted, but I just wanted to point out that they do not have easy lives and Satan and his cohorts definitely bring about suffering for them.

I have a relative who has down syndrome and as soon as she was old enough the doctor had the parents put her on birth control. The reason was because he said it is so common for people who have disabilities to be raped. They are a prime target due to how easily they can be manipulated; ending up pregnant would just compound the situation.

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Hogmeister
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Re: Questions about HF's "Special Spirits"

Post by Hogmeister »

LDS Physician wrote: June 6th, 2017, 4:41 pm I have heard (and I'm not young) from my youth that developmentally disabled and severely mentally ill individuals were "so righteous and special in the pre-existence that Heavenly Father had to make them this way so that Satan couldn't go after them."

Even then and especially now this smacks of untruth. Can you imagine HF thinking, "Hmmmm...Satan is really ticked off at these particular sons and daughters and he's really going to go after them, guess I'll have to make them severely retarded or, hey, ya, schizophrenic!"

I just don't buy it.

I think mortality is an imperfect condition. We're all on a bell curve. There will be a few who are profoundly mentally deficient, most who are average, and a few who are genius. I believe that in most cases these "challenges" are given to a small percentage of human beings in all likelihood randomly. I do believe as stated above that we likely accepted whatever we were to go through.

The fact remains that we're only judged on what we understand and know...so these people get less than the average person so they're judged differently. It's just wonderful that we have a perfect judge!
I do not believe in true randomness. There are laws for everything (consider that even the roll of a die or atomic disintegration follows physical laws). I believe true randomness, if it existed, would eventually destroy the order of God.

"36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions."


If this world and all creations in it was created by chance or randomly it would have been destroyed by chance or randomly a long long time ago.

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