Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

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Elefant
captain of 10
Posts: 22

Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Elefant »

From the book of Mormon we learn that people who lived righteously were always blessed and prospered even unto industries. Looking around today many Mormons argue that advanced technology came because of the restoration of the Gospel. Whether this is the case or not I don't know, but sincerely simetimes I don't see the Good in this new technologies (apart from being able to write this post right now :-? ).

But honestly I'd like to hear some opinions about it. Sonetimes I think it would be better to live as native americans before colonisation, in tune with nature, and without many industries. Why not? Why was there a need to bring the "savages" into houses?

Are modern day technologies not more abused than used for good?

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gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by gclayjr »

Elefant,

Those who wax nostalgic over life in the past never lived it. I am reminded of an article written by Charles Kuralt, who used to narrate the "On The Road" TV show. He grew up in the south during the great depression. One of Roosevelt's New Deal projects. the REA brought electricity to the rural south. He remembered his mother sitting down and crying when the REA started to put up electric lines to their farm.

She knew tough difficult life would never be the same. She would not have to wash cloths on a washboard. She knew that she would not have to carry water from a well into a house anymore. She know that so many of those things that made her life so difficult, would no longer be.

Those who wax nostalgic for those times never actually had to live them.

In the early 20th century, 70%-80% of people worked in agriculture. It was tough and miserable, and paid little. When tractors and electricity came around to automate this, everybody celebrated. Today fewer that 3% of people work in agriculture.

Manufacturing used to be the best way for a blue collar man to be able to provide well for his family. Despite the problems with it, unions (I am not a particular fan of Unions), did keep the salaries up, and led to a reasonably comfortable life for those who could work those jobs, and there were quite a few of them.

Today, few people in the U.S. work in manufacturing. The politically correct thing to say for those on the right is that those jobs went to CHina or 3rd world countries. Many did , but most of them were lost to automation. I know, because most of my career was involved in destroying those jobs. The Unions and government regulations helped in that destruction, because, those were the sources of most of the costs of manufacturing. So many companies, hired people like me and my associates to automate those processes. The easy way to cost justify that automation was to eliminate jobs. These were not low paying miserable jobs like "hoe boys" in the 30s, but blue collar often Union jobs that may have been routine, but paid well.

Many justified the social and economic effect of losing these jobs with the idea that it is better to move to "Information jobs". We are learning that most of these jobs are even easier to farm out to cheap foreign labor, than manufacturing jobs.

A benefit of all of this is that we do have a lot of cool stuff, and the prices are ridiculously low. The downside is that it is more difficult to find good paying jobs to pay for this stuff, or even life's necessities.

I do think that we need to think outside of the box. I'm not sure what my opinion is on Trump's plan to create trade barriers via tariffs. It will cause prices to go up. We may get a few jobs, but will it be enough. Quien Sabe?

I do know that this generation is going to have to be more creative in figuring out how to provide for themselves than mine was. I am glad that I am 65 and retired, and did not have to figure out some these difficult things to provide for my family.

However, I can assure you as difficult it may be, going back to a pre-industrial society is not the answer.

However, maybe via war or riots, we can get back there. God help us if we do!

Regards,

George Clay
Last edited by gclayjr on May 30th, 2017, 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by brianj »

Famine appears to be at historic lows. Medical care is increasing life expectancy. Thanks to modern communication technologies we can see things happening anywhere in the world with less than a two second delay. Even those in poverty live better than royalty did 500 years ago.

Industrialization is a great blessing that has improved life for almost everybody and allows us to pursue even greater endeavors. The fact that some people use it in evil ways does not mean industrialization is bad.

Sunain
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2719
Location: Canada

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Sunain »

Almost every modern day prophet and apostle has stated that knowledge and technology is for our benefit. It is true that many link the return of the gospel and the industrial revolution together because they occur basically at the same time. Without the automation in agriculture and goods, I'm not sure the world could support the population it does now.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3675

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Bronco73idi »

I like to look at the big picture, was Industrialization needed to get us closer to the technology the lord is at?

Minds like Tesla and Einstein both invented and patented so many things by thinking about them and solving the problem in their mind.

Nikola Tesla wasn't mormon but he believed in personal revelation to a certain degree, "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible."

The lord's will will be done, thru sinner or saint.

Elefant
captain of 10
Posts: 22

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Elefant »

Yes, I always heard that people were inspired to invent stuff, but I ask myself to what purpose? Does this industrial world we set up not make it easy not having to depend on God?
In this robot and medical insurance society, is it not easier just to rely on these thing. In this sight industrialisatiin would rather be a curse.
Also, how come that this planet is so messed up if industrialidation is Divine? Poor people producing smart phones at horrible cobditions for us. Just somw thoughts....

Elefant
captain of 10
Posts: 22

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Elefant »

I also have to say that I do not question the book of mormon, I'm sure that it's right about those blessings, but I just don't understand how our current way of living could be righteous. Where do we have to draw the line?

D and C 104:18 Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.

Are we Gentile nations not taking of the abundance of this world? Driving, Flying, Eating, Consuming while others produce that stuff to hirrible conditions?

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gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by gclayjr »

Elefant,
I also have to say that I do not question the book of mormon, I'm sure that it's right about those blessings, but I just don't understand how our current way of living could be righteous. Where do we have to draw the line?

D and C 104:18 Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.

Are we Gentile nations not taking of the abundance of this world? Driving, Flying, Eating, Consuming while others produce that stuff to hirrible conditions?
I know that it is contrary to the illusions many have of today, but with the technology today, MORE is being given to the needy than ever before, and poverty in this world is on the decline. In fact, many of the the worst hell holes of today, such as Venezuela and North Korea are wonderful Socialist havens where, while slamming capitalist greed, will not let their starving, suffering, people receive the abundance of charitable food, medicine etc, that us capitalist pigs want to give them!


Regards,

George Clay

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Durzan
The Lord's Trusty Maverick
Posts: 3745
Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by Durzan »

As good as Industrialization has been for us humans, I believe it is a two edged sword. With greater technology comes greater and more abominable ways to sin.

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harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Industrialisation: A blessing or human greed?

Post by harakim »

gclayjr wrote: May 30th, 2017, 2:37 pm Elefant,

Those who wax nostalgic over life in the past never lived it. I am reminded of an article written by Charles Kuralt, who used to narrate the "On The Road" TV show. He grew up in the south during the great depression. One of Roosevelt's New Deal projects. the REA brought electricity to the rural south. He remembered his mother sitting down and crying when the REA started to put up electric lines to their farm.

She knew tough difficult life would never be the same. She would not have to wash cloths on a washboard. She knew that she would not have to carry water from a well into a house anymore. She know that so many of those things that made her life so difficult, would no longer be.

Those who wax nostalgic for those times never actually had to live them.

In the early 20th century, 70%-80% of people worked in agriculture. It was tough and miserable, and paid little. When tractors and electricity came around to automate this, everybody celebrated. Today fewer that 3% of people work in agriculture.

Manufacturing used to be the best way for a blue collar man to be able to provide well for his family. Despite the problems with it, unions (I am not a particular fan of Unions), did keep the salaries up, and led to a reasonably comfortable life for those who could work those jobs, and there were quite a few of them.

Today, few people in the U.S. work in manufacturing. The politically correct thing to say for those on the right is that those jobs went to CHina or 3rd world countries. Many did , but most of them were lost to automation. I know, because most of my career was involved in destroying those jobs. The Unions and government regulations helped in that destruction, because, those were the sources of most of the costs of manufacturing. So many companies, hired people like me and my associates to automate those processes. The easy way to cost justify that automation was to eliminate jobs. These were not low paying miserable jobs like "hoe boys" in the 30s, but blue collar often Union jobs that may have been routine, but paid well.

Many justified the social and economic effect of losing these jobs with the idea that it is better to move to "Information jobs". We are learning that most of these jobs are even easier to farm out to cheap foreign labor, than manufacturing jobs.

A benefit of all of this is that we do have a lot of cool stuff, and the prices are ridiculously low. The downside is that it is more difficult to find good paying jobs to pay for this stuff, or even life's necessities.

I do think that we need to think outside of the box. I'm not sure what my opinion is on Trump's plan to create trade barriers via tariffs. It will cause prices to go up. We may get a few jobs, but will it be enough. Quien Sabe?

I do know that this generation is going to have to be more creative in figuring out how to provide for themselves than mine was. I am glad that I am 65 and retired, and did not have to figure out some these difficult things to provide for my family.

However, I can assure you as difficult it may be, going back to a pre-industrial society is not the answer.

However, maybe via war or riots, we can get back there. God help us if we do!

Regards,

George Clay
I sympathize with this statement. I live mostly off the grid. We do not have air conditioning and only recently fixed our heater so we could use it. There are many lights in the house that don't work and we don't bother to replace them, nor do we really notice most of the time. I don't like most electronics and don't like most things about computers, although I do like to use it for learning, writing and listening to music. I'm pretty sure if the power went out today, I would be just about the least sad person about it.

I don't like the medical industry, and only if I think there is a 50%+ chance I'm going to die (and only then with serious prodding by others) will I go to the doctor. When I chose to use it that one time though, it was great. Now knowing how much it cost I may not have gone. But hey, I feel better than I did before.

I think 95% of the time people would be happier without electricity. I think most people would be happier without the internet and TV. I think most people would be healthier without "modern medicine." I do think our society as a whole would probably be better off with no electricity than with what we have now.

However... When I ride to work on my bike, when I am splitting firewood or when I'm canning with mason jars, I'm glad for industrialization. I'm glad I can pay 10 dollars for a quality hammer. And even with electricity: that 5% of the time that I think electricity is beneficial, I'm glad we have a washing machine. Also, it's hard to knock the selection of books on amazon.

I guess what I'm getting at is: Society is probably better off without electricity and possibly without modern industrialization. Perhaps 95% of the time you would be happier. However, that 5% of the time might make the other 95% worth it. In my book, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

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