Are we sinning enough yet?

[lundbaek]

I the 1991 edition of the Church publication PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL, Pg. 136: "Unless we as members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

Let me ask the choir here: What are things we can be doing to help preserve the freedoms we have - and restore those we have lost ?

And let me ask this: What freedoms have we lost since 1833, when the Lord put His "stamp of approval" on the US Constitution ?

[JT1]

I the 1991 edition of the Church publication PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL, Pg. 136: "Unless we as members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

Let me ask the choir here: What are things we can be doing to help preserve the freedoms we have - and restore those we have lost ?

And let me ask this: What freedoms have we lost since 1833, when the Lord put His "stamp of approval" on the US Constitution ?

To your second question: approaching 60 million who didn't get the right to life. That seems substantial. Still thinking about the first question.

[Sunain]

In a recent stake conference the area authority seventy quoted an apostle about this very issue. He said the apostle said the world doesn't need to become more wicked for the Savior to return, the saints need to become more righteous.

Amen!

If the saints became more righteous, there would be no need for the Savior to rescue us as we would be correcting the worlds social ills. Note the Savior comes to the Saints first before he reveals himself to the Jews and the rest of the world. The whole point of the missionary program is to call the world to repentance and to stop their sinning, not to tell the Saints they aren't good enough and we're the problem for the Savior to return. Some Saints are sinning but there is a repentance process. I do not like the roll reversal that the all Saints like us are the problem. Very passive aggressive. We are doing our best to help the world, those sinning are the problem. Most members of the church are trying to do better each day!

The prophet Daniel said that the time before the Second Coming would be a time of trouble such as the earth has never known (see Daniel 12:1). The Lord said, “The love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound” (D&C 45:27). “And all things shall be in commotion; and … fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:91). We can expect earthquakes, disease, famines, great storms, lightnings, and thunder (see Matthew 24:7; D&C 88:90).
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... g?lang=eng

[Rensai]

Don't forget that america is the promised land. Its inhabitants are held to a higher standard and thus, will be the first to fall.

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

We must not be quite there yet, but I'll bet its not too much longer before the majority of the people here choose wickedness.

[BTH&T]

A great change has taken place in America.
What is expected of ones self and what is demanded of others has deteriorated to the point of self destruction. Let alone all of the active sin!
What about the sin and wickedness of laziness and slothfulness?
Those that want to do nothing but expect to be fed, clothed and sheltered?
I'm not talking about those in need and trying to make it better by doing all they can.
It's those that have an attitude of "It's mine" or "I deserve it" without any thought of earning it.
We are very close to the point that more than half the country is dependent on assistance in some form.
My gut tells me when we reach a tipping point that those that want to be taken care of far out number those that work for what they have... the whole system collapses. Chaos and anarchy will prevail.
I've lived in NYC and Houston, I have seen that we are so much closer to collapse than anyone realizes.
The riots in Ferguson and Baltimore are very small to what will happen when minor hiccups happen to the doles that don't get food or assistance checks/cards. We are not far from issues that could happen in an instant.

Evil is always ready to explode when given the opportunity.
(I've heard that you want to be 50 miles from any metropolitan area of 50000 people if crisis ever hits, I can understand why)

[AI2.0]

The scriptures tell us how evil the generation will be in the last days and clearly we are headed in that direction if not there but I wonder if we havent seen the half of it yet. A man can marry a man and there is plenty of adultery, sex and persecution going around but is it just a fraction of what is to come? I wonder how much worse it needs to get for the Lord to say thats enough or has he already had this thought. I know many things must happen before the Lord comes but I wonder if this generation is close to the evil that was said it would be.

Things are pretty bad, there's no question. If they are bad enough, I don't know.

Mosiah shared this inspiration when warning the people of the dangers of having a king and proposing a system of judges; He said it's not common for the 'voice of the people' to choose that which is not right, but it is usually the case that the smaller minorities of society will choose wickedness. So it depends on how widespread and accepted wickedness is among society.

'And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land." Mosial 29:27

So, as far as the Americas, the standard for when the judgments of God come upon us is when the voice of the people choose iniquity. I guess it depends on whether the people are really as wicked as they seem, as a whole, or if the righteous are still more numerous.

[eddie]

I don't know if it is, but it oughta be a sin
To look this good!

[Older/wiser?]

Well Eddie you must be young, cause I certainly have seen better days. Putting good looks aside, Helaman 5:2. For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good , therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

I like this scripture because I can judge the wickedness not only by the people,(I would have to send out a national survey to get a real idea of the percentage of wickedness) but I can tell by the laws of the land where we stand. Abortion-legal 60 million babies dead. Gay marriage-legal , that is at the top of the heap as far as perversions mirroring a society. So "are we there yet" I would say yes, we have tied our own noose, placed it around our necks and are working to kick that stool.

[Yahtzee]

I don't know, I think things could still get worse. Voluntary Euthanasia, followed by elderly/sick euthanasia which will be brought on by socialized medicine would be pretty evil and I could easily see that happening.
Pedophilia becoming a legal protected status.
Something like gladiators/snuff entertainment becoming widespread....
I can honestly see those scenarios. It makes me feel physically ill to realize we still have farther we could fall.

[LDS Physician]

I've often thought about what is God's Red line. He seems to be very tolerant with not interfering with sin or sinners because that would be counter to free agency.

Killing His elect and stoning the prophets seem to be the big ones. He intervenes in order to fulfill the covenants He has made. Those covenants generally include temporal protection, as well as spiritual (2 Nephi 1 is a good example).

I agree. I think the punishment fits the crime when the Lord is concerned, usually. It seems like our nation will have to get a lot more evil to be worthy of the horrific/prophesied tribulations. As you've said, outright persecution of his people has historically tipped his hand.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I've often thought about what is God's Red line. He seems to be very tolerant with not interfering with sin or sinners because that would be counter to free agency.

Killing His elect and stoning the prophets seem to be the big ones. He intervenes in order to fulfill the covenants He has made. Those covenants generally include temporal protection, as well as spiritual (2 Nephi 1 is a good example).

I agree. I think the punishment fits the crime when the Lord is concerned, usually. It seems like our nation will have to get a lot more evil to be worthy of the horrific/prophesied tribulations. As you've said, outright persecution of his people has historically tipped his hand.

Judgment against a people does not happen like the Lord is reacting to what we do. It was planned from the beginning. He has warned the Gentiles that if they will not worship the true and living G_d of heaven and His Son, whom He has revealed, that He will cut them off and wipe them almost utterly from this most holy land of inheritance. The Book of Mormon was sent to them to bring them to this knowledge and to warn them. Yet read the Book of Mormon, it is clear that the Gentiles will eventually reject G_d, and He in His most perfect mercy will fulfill all of His words. It is not a decision, as much as it is that it was always the plan. This is Jacob's land of inheritance, and not 'if' but 'when' the 'Wild' olive branches that were grafted in fail, that they will be cut out and the 'Natural' olive branches will then be grafted back in.

It was also for this reason that the Gentiles were given the Gospel, as to provoke jealousy among Yesrael, that it might bring them unto repentance, in the Latter-Days. This nation was been held from judgments as long as it was G_d fearing! But by design, they have divorced G_d, forbidding the people to pray publicly before our little ones and instill that light within them. Science has closed their minds unto G_d, because they can not imperially prove of His existence. And we have allowed the wicked and abominable to not only have a voice, but to sway this nation to go a whoring after the lust of the flesh. And now the seeds have sprouted and there is a generation that is coming up (the Millennial's) who know not G_d and believe not. As humanist, they have become G_d's unto themselves and this nation now stand at the point where G_d's judgments are about to befall it because of this great wickedness that we ought not to have allowed to come up among us. When will judgment come? Not quite yet, as Yesrael has not yet repent sufficiently, but soon...

The lack of Faith of the Elect is appalling! Zion can not come forth unto a faithless people, even to a blind but blessed and a foretold faithless people. They must awaken, even if it be by these self same judgments, that are coming. Yet who here is perfectly prepared for such to come upon them today? What would we not give for just one more year of time to prepare?

Shalom

[EmmaLee]

I don't know, I think things could still get worse. Voluntary Euthanasia, followed by elderly/sick euthanasia which will be brought on by socialized medicine would be pretty evil and I could easily see that happening.
Pedophilia becoming a legal protected status.
Something like gladiators/snuff entertainment becoming widespread....
I can honestly see those scenarios. It makes me feel physically ill to realize we still have farther we could fall.

I agree on all those points, Yahtzee. Also, it seems that when the children can't grow up being properly taught the gospel, is when things will take a swift nose-dive - and that time is getting here rapidly. When even LDS parents are too afraid to teach their children properly (as are many who I personally know, in my ward and elsewhere), for fear of being labeled "intolerant" or "uncompassionate", etc. or because it's 'trendy' to let your children believe lies, or even teach them the lies yourself. I have always believed the Flood occurred because of this very reason - the children were not able to be taught truth, because of such widespread false and sinful beliefs - even with the majority of 'believers'. We're perilously close to that level now, at least from what I'm seeing at church (never mind the world).

[EmmaLee]

alaris just said this on another thread - fits perfectly with what I was trying to say above about the children not being able to hear the true, undiluted gospel of Jesus Christ because their parents didn't even know it, or couldn't/wouldn't teach it to their children - "...looking past the mark and being filled with so much pride they were unteachable." I think we are almost to that point - and when we are, that's when the Lord will start preaching his own sermons, IMO.

[lundbaek]

What principles are LDS parents too afraid to teach their children properly, for fear of being labeled "intolerant" or "uncompassionate", or for any other reason ? I cannot imagine any parent let their children believe lies, or knowingly teaching them the lies, unless they believe the lies themselves, which I can conceive of.

[Older/wiser?]

Could be that as a society has turned from God the weight of a parents teachings has decreased in value and influence. With the freedom of mothers leaving the home to work comes other influences affecting not only the children but the family, does not the gov. dictate the learning of our children and normalize perversions(I have 2 daddies , really not in my day) till we reach a point that the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honorable. I realize there are those here Yahtzee being one who has done all to teach correct principles. Our society doesn't value virtue, love of God, casting out evil, would be considered intolerant and get you a nasty label or a lawsuit. My personal belief is when children no longer can be raised in innocence, because of our corruption then we are almost there. Someone said in another post ,we send our children to school in Babylon and are surprised they come back Babylonians. We may have a little more time as the dividing continues, but make no mistake we are being divided.

[Silver Pie]

The scriptures tell us how evil the generation will be in the last days and clearly we are headed in that direction if not there but I wonder if we havent seen the half of it yet. A man can marry a man and there is plenty of adultery, sex and persecution going around but is it just a fraction of what is to come? I wonder how much worse it needs to get for the Lord to say thats enough or has he already had this thought. I know many things must happen before the Lord comes but I wonder if this generation is close to the evil that was said it would be.

I think the biggest sin is pride, and I think the person I need to look hardest at is myself. I may think I'm going to be saved, but if my heart is full of pride and is hardened against what God is trying to teach me, I may be pretty dang close to "sinning enough" to be destroyed, while the neighbor who I view as wicked and about to be destroyed might be saved before I am.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Are we sinning enough yet? Post by Gage

Do not count me in with your "WE"!

I do not feel it is a competition to see who can qualify to go to hell!

WE should be down on our faces praying for yourselves, our families, our friends, or enemies, and this country, to REPENT and for REPENTANCE!

As for when do you think G_d is going to bring judgment upon the Gentiles Saints? Sooner than you really should not hope for, for then shall almost all shall be cutoff out from the land of the living, many in their sins, and hell and damnation shall be their eternal reward, and we will ALL mourn in that day. If not for ones self, then for one's love one, for great shall be our sadness, and not one person shall not be touched and afflicted of soul.

Have you cried repentance all the day long that the blood of this generation shall not be found upon your garments?

[Gage]

Are we sinning enough yet? Post by Gage

Do not count me in with your "WE"!

I do not feel it is a competition to see who can qualify to go to hell!

WE should be down on our faces praying for yourselves, our families, our friends, or enemies, and this country, to REPENT and for REPENTANCE!

As for when do you think G_d is going to bring judgment upon the Gentiles Saints? Sooner than you really should not hope for, for then shall almost all shall be cutoff out from the land of the living, many in their sins, and hell and damnation shall be their eternal reward, and we will ALL mourn in that day. If not for ones self, then for one's love one, for great shall be our sadness, and not one person shall not be touched and afflicted of soul.

Have you cried repentance all the day long that the blood of this generation shall not be found upon your garments?

Are you serious? I mean "we" as meaning the people spoken of in the scriptures. "we" as a people. How did you ever think I meant some kind of competition?

[Kingdom of ZION]

Are we sinning enough yet? Post by Gage

Do not count me in with your "WE"!

I do not feel it is a competition to see who can qualify to go to hell!

WE should be down on our faces praying for yourselves, our families, our friends, or enemies, and this country, to REPENT and for REPENTANCE!

As for when do you think G_d is going to bring judgment upon the Gentiles Saints? Sooner than you really should not hope for, for then shall almost all shall be cutoff out from the land of the living, many in their sins, and hell and damnation shall be their eternal reward, and we will ALL mourn in that day. If not for ones self, then for one's love one, for great shall be our sadness, and not one person shall not be touched and afflicted of soul.

Have you cried repentance all the day long that the blood of this generation shall not be found upon your garments?

Are you serious? I mean "we" as meaning the people spoken of in the scriptures. "we" as a people. How did you ever think I meant some kind of competition?

I was just pulling your leg in the first two sentences, hence the big grin " "

I really did not intend to actually grab your leg... =))

It is so easy to mis-speak in English and have our intentions totally taken out of context. I was actually poking fun at the language of your Opening Question.

Shalom

[Sarah]

Are we sinning enough yet? Post by Gage

Do not count me in with your "WE"!

I do not feel it is a competition to see who can qualify to go to hell!

WE should be down on our faces praying for yourselves, our families, our friends, or enemies, and this country, to REPENT and for REPENTANCE!

As for when do you think G_d is going to bring judgment upon the Gentiles Saints? Sooner than you really should not hope for, for then shall almost all shall be cutoff out from the land of the living, many in their sins, and hell and damnation shall be their eternal reward, and we will ALL mourn in that day. If not for ones self, then for one's love one, for great shall be our sadness, and not one person shall not be touched and afflicted of soul.

Have you cried repentance all the day long that the blood of this generation shall not be found upon your garments?

Right, and the best place to cry repentance is in your Stake in Zion and home ward. We shouldn't underestimate the influence that one righteous individual or family can have on a ward. I've seen how a righteous family's example stirred in other ward members a desire to raise their own bar.

[EmmaLee]

What principles are LDS parents too afraid to teach their children properly, for fear of being labeled "intolerant" or "uncompassionate", or for any other reason ? I cannot imagine any parent let their children believe lies, or knowingly teaching them the lies, unless they believe the lies themselves, which I can conceive of.

The list is quite long, but for just a few examples that I am aware of with active, recommend holding LDS members -

Gay marriage is fine.
Marching in gay pride parades is fine.
Marching in parades holding a Planned Parenthood sign is fine - as is supporting PP in other ways.
Doing whatever you want on Sunday is fine.
Divorcing your spouse because you're bored and just "want to be single again" is fine.
Voting for and otherwise supporting socialism is fine.
There are no evil spirits on the earth tempting us - that was just a story to get people to behave.
Calling money that was forcibly stolen from you, i.e. theft, "charity" is fine.

Those are just a few things that came to mind first. Every one of them I have witnessed being taught in our local LDS ward - some in sacrament meeting, but most in Gospel Doctrine class, and RS. The people saying/doing the above things are all active, recommend holding LDS members - most of whom were or are in leadership and teaching positions in our ward and stake. If they are saying these things at church, I guarantee you they are teaching their own children these things at home. And the parents who don't overtly say these types of things, are cowed into silence by the louder voices who do say these things. Some of these people are close friends of mine, and they admit to being too afraid to speak up at church or on FB because of past experience of being maligned by the aforementioned people (some of whom are in the Bishopric, or married to Bishopric members). Some of them also admit to not teaching their children the truth or correct principles for fear of their children being abused at church (and school, too, of course) should they say something that isn't "PC".

[Older/wiser?]

What principles are LDS parents too afraid to teach their children properly, for fear of being labeled "intolerant" or "uncompassionate", or for any other reason ? I cannot imagine any parent let their children believe lies, or knowingly teaching them the lies, unless they believe the lies themselves, which I can conceive of.

The list is quite long, but for just a few examples that I am aware of with active, recommend holding LDS members -

Gay marriage is fine.
Marching in gay pride parades is fine.
Marching in parades holding a Planned Parenthood sign is fine - as is supporting PP in other ways.
Doing whatever you want on Sunday is fine.
Divorcing your spouse because you're bored and just "want to be single again" is fine.
Voting for and otherwise supporting socialism is fine.
There are no evil spirits on the earth tempting us - that was just a story to get people to behave.
Calling money that was forcibly stolen from you, i.e. theft, "charity" is fine.

Those are just a few things that came to mind first. Every one of them I have witnessed being taught in our local LDS ward - some in sacrament meeting, but most in Gospel Doctrine class, and RS. The people saying/doing the above things are all active, recommend holding LDS members - most of whom were or are in leadership and teaching positions in our ward and stake. If they are saying these things at church, I guarantee you they are teaching their own children these things at home. And the parents who don't overtly say these types of things, are cowed into silence by the louder voices who do say these things. Some of these people are close friends of mine, and they admit to being too afraid to speak up at church or on FB because of past experience of being maligned by the aforementioned people (some of whom are in the Bishopric, or married to Bishopric members). Some of them also admit to not teaching their children the truth or correct principles for fear of their children being abused at church (and school, too, of course) should they say something that isn't "PC".

I can't believe LDS Saints actually think Gay marriage is fine, I am sadly surprised. The world has flip flopped, calling good evil and evil good. We have taken tolerance of sin to a whole new level.

[EmmaLee]

I can't believe LDS Saints actually think Gay marriage is fine, I am sadly surprised. The world has flip flopped, calling good evil and evil good. We have taken tolerance of sin to a whole new level.

I agree, OW. I wish I would have been surprised, back when Roberts declared 'gay marriage' was all-of-a-sudden a 'legal' thing, when I saw multitudes of FB posts from members of our ward expressing happiness and joy that gay people could marry each other now - but I wasn't. They were very open and public about their full support for gay marriage. The two main ones that I remember were the seminary teacher, and the wife of the 1st counselor in our Bishopric. A couple of other ward members commented on their posts, mostly just expressing surprise that they were so supportive and gleeful about gay marriage being 'legal' nationwide - and wow, did they ever get raked over the proverbial coals by these pro-gay members. Which is exactly the type of thing I was referring to in my post above, as to why many parents now will simply not even teach their children what is right for fear of them being treated by fellow Church members the way they themselves were/are treated.

[lundbaek]

The two on EmmaLee's list that give me the most concern are "Voting for and otherwise supporting socialism" and "Calling money that was forcibly stolen from you, i.e. theft, "charity" is fine." Many LDS people fancy themselves charitable because they support "legal plunder" of other people's money to cover welfare costs.

[Rose Garden]

What principles are LDS parents too afraid to teach their children properly, for fear of being labeled "intolerant" or "uncompassionate", or for any other reason ? I cannot imagine any parent let their children believe lies, or knowingly teaching them the lies, unless they believe the lies themselves, which I can conceive of.

The list is quite long, but for just a few examples that I am aware of with active, recommend holding LDS members -

Gay marriage is fine.
Marching in gay pride parades is fine.
Marching in parades holding a Planned Parenthood sign is fine - as is supporting PP in other ways.
Doing whatever you want on Sunday is fine.
Divorcing your spouse because you're bored and just "want to be single again" is fine.
Voting for and otherwise supporting socialism is fine.
There are no evil spirits on the earth tempting us - that was just a story to get people to behave.
Calling money that was forcibly stolen from you, i.e. theft, "charity" is fine.

Those are just a few things that came to mind first. Every one of them I have witnessed being taught in our local LDS ward - some in sacrament meeting, but most in Gospel Doctrine class, and RS. The people saying/doing the above things are all active, recommend holding LDS members - most of whom were or are in leadership and teaching positions in our ward and stake. If they are saying these things at church, I guarantee you they are teaching their own children these things at home. And the parents who don't overtly say these types of things, are cowed into silence by the louder voices who do say these things. Some of these people are close friends of mine, and they admit to being too afraid to speak up at church or on FB because of past experience of being maligned by the aforementioned people (some of whom are in the Bishopric, or married to Bishopric members). Some of them also admit to not teaching their children the truth or correct principles for fear of their children being abused at church (and school, too, of course) should they say something that isn't "PC".

That is very troubling. However, I find that no matter what is being taught in church, it's usually possible to peacefully speak of the most basic principles of the gospel. A focus on the basics is the best medicine for unchristlike beliefs. If you can help turn a conversation toward faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, you are doing the best thing possible for those who have been taken in by popular ideas.