Will the Earthly or the Heavenly New Jerusalem come first?

[friendsofthe]

New blog, how does our understanding of the heavenly New Jerusalem fit into the scheme of things?

http://thebridegroomcometh.net/and-i-jo ... of-heaven/

Let me know what you think... I'm sure there are some strong opinions on this one...

[Alaris]

Fantastic post thank you! I can't tell you how incredibly this post fits with what I've been learning. I believe truth and righteousness are two servants... Righteousness is one of the names of a latter-day servant mentioned repeatedly in Isaiah. Truth comes out of the earth... JOHN.

I have been learning that a resurrection will come much earlier in the process than I had previously thought and your post reinforces this idea to me. Thank you again for sharing these incredible insights.

Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

[friendsofthe]

Alaris wrote:
Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

Yes, that is exactly what will happen although I’m not able to find the documentation at the moment….

[Z2100]

Fantastic post thank you! I can't tell you how incredibly this post fits with what I've been learning. I believe truth and righteousness are two servants... Righteousness is one of the names of a latter-day servant mentioned repeatedly in Isaiah. Truth comes out of the earth... JOHN.

I have been learning that a resurrection will come much earlier in the process than I had previously thought and your post reinforces this idea to me. Thank you again for sharing these incredible insights.

Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

The two new Jerusalems could be one? Yes!

[Spaced_Out]

Fantastic post thank you! I can't tell you how incredibly this post fits with what I've been learning. I believe truth and righteousness are two servants... Righteousness is one of the names of a latter-day servant mentioned repeatedly in Isaiah. Truth comes out of the earth... JOHN.

I have been learning that a resurrection will come much earlier in the process than I had previously thought and your post reinforces this idea to me. Thank you again for sharing these incredible insights.

Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

The two new Jerusalems could be one? Yes!

There is too much to explain in a 5 minute posting.... but it is false understanding.....

The New Jerusalem will be established and the lost tribes will return to it with their scriptures to receive their blessings from Ephraim, This all happens in the 6th seal, long before the second coming. The City of Enoch will also return but will be in a separate location.

At the second coming or slightly afterwards a building a tabernacle where Jehovah will dwell will be brought down from heaven and placed in the New Jerusalem, You are confusing that event with the establishment of Zion the New Jerusalem. Your post is written very deceptively as you reject and don't mention a host of other scriptural evidence and that taught by the prophets of the LDS Church. Just like the previous blog you posted false understanding and when I challenged the doctrine you gave no response.

It is a clear requirement that the saints build the New Jerusalem as a place for the Master to return to, it is the gathering place of the righteous during the tribulations where the wheat and tares are separated, and all nations gather to to it except the Judah who gather to the Old Jerusalem.

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

The coming from heaven in Ether means it is a work of God not a literal coining down from heaven, in verse 10 it says the New Jerusalem comes then the the old Jerusalem comes, ie. Zion the New Jerusalem is established int he 6th seal and in the 7th seal prior to the main second coming the old Jerusalem is established which is in line with what we have been taught. As we know the Jews in the last days will rebuilt the Temple on the mount and prior to the second coming come to a knowledge of the true redeemer and worship him in righteousness - but that comes after the New Jerusalem.

3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
7 For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.
8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.
9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.
10 And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.


Never - neither will the old Jerusalem that will be restored become one. Yes one in faith and testimony and righteousness, one in Christ, There are different tribes and the New Jerusalem has one gate for each tribe, so there will still be a separation even within the New Jerusalem.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

[nightlight]

Fantastic post thank you! I can't tell you how incredibly this post fits with what I've been learning. I believe truth and righteousness are two servants... Righteousness is one of the names of a latter-day servant mentioned repeatedly in Isaiah. Truth comes out of the earth... JOHN.

I have been learning that a resurrection will come much earlier in the process than I had previously thought and your post reinforces this idea to me. Thank you again for sharing these incredible insights.

Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

The two new Jerusalems could be one? Yes!

There is too much to explain in a 5 minute posting.... but it is false understanding.....

The New Jerusalem will be established and the lost tribes will return to it with their scriptures to receive their blessings from Ephraim, This all happens in the 6th seal, long before the second coming. The City of Enoch will also return but will be in a separate location.

At the second coming or slightly afterwards a building a tabernacle where Jehovah will dwell will be brought down from heaven and placed in the New Jerusalem, You are confusing that event with the establishment of Zion the New Jerusalem. Your post is written very deceptively as you reject and don't mention a host of other scriptural evidence and that taught by the prophets of the LDS Church. Just like the previous blog you posted false understanding and when I challenged the doctrine you gave no response.

It is a clear requirement that the saints build the New Jerusalem as a place for the Master to return to, it is the gathering place of the righteous during the tribulations where the wheat and tares are separated, and all nations gather to to it except the Judah who gather to the Old Jerusalem.

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

The coming from heaven in Ether means it is a work of God not a literal coining down from heaven, in verse 10 it says the New Jerusalem comes then the the old Jerusalem comes, ie. Zion the New Jerusalem is established int he 6th seal and in the 7th seal prior to the main second coming the old Jerusalem is established which is in line with what we have been taught. As we know the Jews in the last days will rebuilt the Temple on the mount and prior to the second coming come to a knowledge of the true redeemer and worship him in righteousness - but that comes after the New Jerusalem.

3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
7 For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.
8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.
9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.
10 And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.


Never - neither will the old Jerusalem that will be restored become one. Yes one in faith and testimony and righteousness, one in Christ, There are different tribes and the New Jerusalem has one gate for each tribe, so there will still be a separation even within the New Jerusalem.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

Excellent post, but I thought the temple would be built prior to his coming and he will suddenly appear at his Temple?

2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

[Z2100]

Fantastic post thank you! I can't tell you how incredibly this post fits with what I've been learning. I believe truth and righteousness are two servants... Righteousness is one of the names of a latter-day servant mentioned repeatedly in Isaiah. Truth comes out of the earth... JOHN.

I have been learning that a resurrection will come much earlier in the process than I had previously thought and your post reinforces this idea to me. Thank you again for sharing these incredible insights.

Could the two new Jerusalems become one?

The two new Jerusalems could be one? Yes!

There is too much to explain in a 5 minute posting.... but it is false understanding.....

The New Jerusalem will be established and the lost tribes will return to it with their scriptures to receive their blessings from Ephraim, This all happens in the 6th seal, long before the second coming. The City of Enoch will also return but will be in a separate location.

At the second coming or slightly afterwards a building a tabernacle where Jehovah will dwell will be brought down from heaven and placed in the New Jerusalem, You are confusing that event with the establishment of Zion the New Jerusalem. Your post is written very deceptively as you reject and don't mention a host of other scriptural evidence and that taught by the prophets of the LDS Church. Just like the previous blog you posted false understanding and when I challenged the doctrine you gave no response.

It is a clear requirement that the saints build the New Jerusalem as a place for the Master to return to, it is the gathering place of the righteous during the tribulations where the wheat and tares are separated, and all nations gather to to it except the Judah who gather to the Old Jerusalem.

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

The coming from heaven in Ether means it is a work of God not a literal coining down from heaven, in verse 10 it says the New Jerusalem comes then the the old Jerusalem comes, ie. Zion the New Jerusalem is established int he 6th seal and in the 7th seal prior to the main second coming the old Jerusalem is established which is in line with what we have been taught. As we know the Jews in the last days will rebuilt the Temple on the mount and prior to the second coming come to a knowledge of the true redeemer and worship him in righteousness - but that comes after the New Jerusalem.

3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
7 For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.
8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.
9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.
10 And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.


Never - neither will the old Jerusalem that will be restored become one. Yes one in faith and testimony and righteousness, one in Christ, There are different tribes and the New Jerusalem has one gate for each tribe, so there will still be a separation even within the New Jerusalem.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

I think I read the persons post wrong. I was thinking that when the Earth is celestialized, there will be the one big city on Earth.

[friendsofthe]

Spaced_Out wrote:
There is too much to explain in a 5 minute posting.... but it is false understanding.....

Just like the previous blog you posted false understanding and when I challenged the doctrine you gave no response.

You’re obviously very opinionated. Your manner of responding to a post you don’t agree with is to bring out a flame thrower and accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with you or has a differing point of view of teaching false doctrine or as you say “false understanding”. I’ve seen this kind of behavior so many times on this forum and I’m just not going to waste my precious time playing your games.

[Spaced_Out]

Spaced_Out wrote:
There is too much to explain in a 5 minute posting.... but it is false understanding.....

Just like the previous blog you posted false understanding and when I challenged the doctrine you gave no response.

You’re obviously very opinionated. Your manner of responding to a post you don’t agree with is to bring out a flame thrower and accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with you or has a differing point of view of teaching false doctrine or as you say “false understanding”. I’ve seen this kind of behavior so many times on this forum and I’m just not going to waste my precious time playing your games.

Good the post does not justify any further discussion, what we have been taught by the General Leadership of the church is sand what is plain in the scriptures is sufficient... and the quicker this post gets buried the better. But I ,would think you own an explanation to the other forum members for that kind of doctrine.

"that would represent a huge paradigm shift for most members of the Church from what I have been able to gather!"

Statements like the majority of the church has to go through a paradigm shift in what we are taught and believe, is what gets my back up - so I put a bit of pressure on you and you folded....

[Spaced_Out]

Excellent post, but I thought the temple would be built prior to his coming and he will suddenly appear at his Temple?

2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

Very true the words of the prophet of the restoration.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... n?lang=eng

Though Zion is foretold in other scriptures (see 3 Nephi 21:22–25; Ether 13:2–12; Moses 7:61–64), only in the Doctrine and Covenants can be found the directives for its establishment, its laws and principles, and its location. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the New Jerusalem would be the first of Zion communities built in preparation for the Millennium. The New Jerusalem will be called “an ‘holy city’ … because it is a place of righteousness” (History of the Church, 2:254),

It is a basic teaching of the LDS church the New Jerusalem will be built not come down from heaven.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

[Alaris]

Picking a fight or shutting down the conversation - neither are the Lord's way. Even if you were right you could have made all your points by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.

[Alaris]

I'd like to take one of the scriptures mentioned by your blog and expand / expound upon it:

Moses 7:62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

I believe righteousness and truth here are the two witnesses. I believe it was friendsofthe who introduced the idea to me that one of the two witnesses could be John. Like many others, I too dismissed this idea believing that God would not send a translated, immortal person to die, but power is given to the two witnesses for a time where they cannot be destroyed---which sounds very much like translation as evidenced by comparing the scriptures in revelation about the two witness to the scriptures about the three nephites who could not be killed.

Righteousness is one of the words used to describe the Davidic Servant throughout Isaiah (see www.isaiahexplained.com) Truth could certainly be a title for John as the title could be derived from the "truth" that John revealed in his record--the fullness of which we do not have ... yet. So Righteouness comes out of heaven - I believe this means he is born into a mortal body from heaven where his spirit was. Truth being sent forth out of the earth refers to John who has been here the whole time and if he reveals the fullness of his own record ... well truth indeed.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The two witnesses are certainly given power--awesome power. I won't post all the scriptures here, as that was a different thread.

Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

Isaiah Institute Translation

Isaiah 41:2 Who has raised up Righteousness from the east,
calling him to the place of his foot?
Who has delivered nations to him,
toppled their rulers,
rendering them as dust to his sword,
as driven stubble to his bow?

One of the prophesied responsibilities of the Davidic Servant is to gather the elect / Israel.

Isaiah 10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah Institute Translation:

Isaiah 11:10 In that day the sprig of Jesse,
who stands for an ensign to the peoples,
shall be sought by the nations,
and his rest shall be glorious.
11 In that day my Lord will again braise his hand
to reclaim the remnant of his people—
those who shall be left out of Assyria,
Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
and the islands of the sea.
12 He will raise the ensign to the nations
and assemble the exiled of Israel;
he will gather the scattered of Judah
from the four directions of the earth.

D&C 113:5,6
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

As for New Jerusalem being two cities combined into one ...

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Moses 7:63 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Then shalt thou and all thy city meet them there, and we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other;

I think that's ^ pretty clear. The city of Enoch will return and join the New Jerusalem where truth and righteousness have been working dilligenty to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth (see Moses 7:62 quoted at the beginning of this post.)

[Spaced_Out]

Moses 7:62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

Yeah the city is prepared and the New Jerusalem is built - then they shall be looking forth for his coming... Clear indication of the order of things.

[Spaced_Out]

Picking a fight or shutting down the conversation - neither are the Lord's way. Even if you were right you could have made all your points by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.

Preach nothing but repentance and reject falsehood is the way. Reprove with sharpness then show love.....You only read half the scripture. All this kindness and tolerance of all manor of false doctrine and wickedness is suffocating.
To me his posts are clearly written to be controversial and go against the teaching of the LDS church to raise up dissent and rebellion amongst the members. Why write a blog that only deals with highly controversial doctrine that is contrary to the teaching of the prophets, I consider it dishonest with no desire to find the truth.
Snowflakes at the tiniest bit of correction he goes to I am a victim, yet they write things that is a subtle deceptive attack on the church.

[thaabit]

To me his posts are clearly written to be controversial and go against the teaching of the LDS church to raise up dissent and rebellion amongst the members. Why write a blog that only deals with highly controversial doctrine that is contrary to the teaching of the prophets, I consider it dishonest with no desire to find the truth.
Snowflakes at the tiniest bit of correction he goes to I am a victim, yet they write things that is a subtle deceptive attack on the church.

What are you even referencing? That's some really harsh criticism without any backing.

[Spaced_Out]

To me his posts are clearly written to be controversial and go against the teaching of the LDS church to raise up dissent and rebellion amongst the members. Why write a blog that only deals with highly controversial doctrine that is contrary to the teaching of the prophets, I consider it dishonest with no desire to find the truth.
Snowflakes at the tiniest bit of correction he goes to I am a victim, yet they write things that is a subtle deceptive attack on the church.

What are you even referencing? That's some really harsh criticism without any backing.

Chapter heading of Ether, He is implying the LDS Church don't understand their own scriptures. Saying New Jerusalem will not be built is a very dangerous doctrine and contrary to the entire purpose of the earth and the last days to prepare a people for the Lord's return. .

Chapter 13
Ether speaks of a New Jerusalem to be built in America by the seed of Joseph—He prophesies, is cast out, writes the Jaredite history, and foretells the destruction of the Jaredites—War rages over all the land.

[thaabit]

Chapter heading of Ether, He is implying the LDS Church don't understand their own scriptures. Saying New Jerusalem will not be built is a very dangerous doctrine and contrary to the entire purpose of the earth and the last days to prepare a people for the Lord's return. .

Chapter 13
Ether speaks of a New Jerusalem to be built in America by the seed of Joseph—He prophesies, is cast out, writes the Jaredite history, and foretells the destruction of the Jaredites—War rages over all the land.

Thx for the reply. A few thoughts. First off, I personally wouldn't use chapter headings as definitive proof of LDS doctrine. My understanding is that they were written by a committee of academics, not through revelation. I would say they are useful as guideposts as you go through the scriptures, but not as official doctrine.

As to the New Jerusalem, if I read his argument correctly, he seemed to be suggesting that the Savior would help build the city *after* the 2nd Coming rather than it being built as a precursor to that event. I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't see it as contradicting some well-defined LDS doctrine. It seems like he's just working out the sequence of events leading up to and after the 2nd Coming. Just reading that chapter in Ether it talks about a new heaven and a new earth prior to the building of this city. Has anyone ever explained that one? It also talks about the remnant of the house of Joseph building the New Jerusalem. 3 Ne 21 clarifies some of this, where the remnant of Jacob builds the New Jerusalem (assisted by those of the Gentiles who repent) (v23-24), followed by the powers of heaven coming down and the Savior being in their midst (v25). This ties back to 3 Ne 16 which refers to the Gentiles receiving truth (v7), scattering the house of Israel in the Americas (v8), gathering the house of Israel through the "fulness of the Gentiles" (v4), rejecting the fulness of the gospel (v10), the fulness going to the house of Israel (v12) with those of the Gentiles who repent (v13), the unrepentant Gentiles being trodden down by the house of Israel (v15), followed by the building of Zion and the 2nd Coming (v17-20).

But that's not something you'll hear in Sunday School...

It does seem there that the New Jerusalem is built as a precursor to the 2nd Coming, so I don't disagree with your premise.

As for the "dangerous doctrine" assertion, I think you go too far. If his intention is to undermine the work of God, so be it, but if he just errs in doctrine in his search for truth, we should be more forgiving. A story about Joseph Smith and Brother Brown might be of use:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”

From https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

[Alaris]

Picking a fight or shutting down the conversation - neither are the Lord's way. Even if you were right you could have made all your points by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.

Preach nothing but repentance and reject falsehood is the way. Reprove with sharpness then show love.....You only read half the scripture. All this kindness and tolerance of all manor of false doctrine and wickedness is suffocating.
To me his posts are clearly written to be controversial and go against the teaching of the LDS church to raise up dissent and rebellion amongst the members. Why write a blog that only deals with highly controversial doctrine that is contrary to the teaching of the prophets, I consider it dishonest with no desire to find the truth.
Snowflakes at the tiniest bit of correction he goes to I am a victim, yet they write things that is a subtle deceptive attack on the church.

Firstly I didn't only read half the scripture. I've read D&C 121 many times thank you very much.
;)

In all seriousness, my brother in Christ you left out the word "betimes" that immediately follows the scripture and "when moved upon by the Holy Ghost." I copy and pasted from the scripture above and yet you conveniently (a sharp adjective here) left out the word "betimes" and the bit about the Holy Ghost's involvement. I was initially going to ignore your post seeing no need to further engage this silly contest ... until I felt moved to reply just now after reading thaabit's most recent reply. I prayed just now to confirm I should use that sharp adjective. Confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

D&C 121:43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

Why am I dissecting this? I am hoping this will help you spaced_out. I believe you intentionally left out the most important parts of verse 43 to justify your inexcusable behavior (another sharp adjective - prayed about it. Confirmed.) To accuse friendsofthe of deliberately deceiving people with subtlety and with the evidence you laid is preposterous and frankly you should apologize to him. Let's say he erred, but is genuinely excited to share and discuss - and is even open to being wrong - and boom you accuse him of preaching falsehoods and deliberately deceiving people. Take a care. Too many people in these forums justify the breaking of the second greatest commandment in the name of declaring falsehoods as though they were the ultimate authority to do so without ever having to resort to ... persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, and meekness, and love unfeigned.

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Hence ...

verse 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

I left out the sharpness verse again here as I highly recommend you stick to mastering verses 41 and 42 first good brother. I ask you now, were you moved upon by the Holy Ghost to address friendsofthe the way you did? Did you pray and carefully consider your language to your brother in Christ? Do you really think friendsofthe has craftily and cunningly created a blog to share his passion for studying the gospel to deliberately mislead people into misunderstanding the sequence of events of the building of ZION???

[Alaris]

I want to return to this discussion gathered in the name of Christ and the spirit of brotherly love. I would love to get the OPs feedback on this, as this is my current (non-presumptive) interpretation of events. From the quote of Joseph Smith (I added a few more paragraphs from the original quote.)

First, I shall begin by quoting from the prophecy of Enoch, speaking of the last days: "Righteousness will I send down out of heaven, and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten, His resurrection from the dead (this resurrection I understand to be the corporeal body); yea, and also the resurrection of all men; righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine own elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, a Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming, for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion a New Jerusalem." (Moses 7:62)

Now I understand by this quotation, that God clearly manifested to Enoch the redemption which He prepared, by offering the Messiah as a Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world; and by virtue of the same, the glorious resurrection of the Savior, and the resurrection of all the human family, even a resurrection of their corporeal bodies, is brought to pass; and also righteousness and truth are to sweep the earth as with a flood. And now, I ask, how righteousness and truth are going to sweep the earth as with a flood? I will answer. Men and angels are to be co-workers in bringing to pass this great work, and Zion is to be prepared, even a new Jerusalem, for the elect that are to be gathered from the four quarters of the earth, and to be established an holy city, for the tabernacle of the Lord shall be with them.

Now Enoch was in good company in his views upon this subject: "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" 21:3).

I discover by this quotation, that John upon the isle of Patmos, saw the same things concerning the last days, which Enoch saw. But before the tabernacle can be with men, the elect must be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. And to show further upon this subject of the gathering, Moses, after having pronounced the blessing and cursing upon the children of Israel, for their obedience or disobedience, says thus:

"And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind, among all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, and shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey His voice, according to all that I command thee, this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee (Deut. 30:1-4). . . .

And again (see Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 20:22, current edition, which says), "Behold this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob, and it shall be a New Jerusalem." Now we learn from the Book of Mormon the very identical continent and spot of land upon which the New Jerusalem is to stand, and it must be caught up according to the vision of John upon the isle of Patmos.

Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation 21:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cites spoken of here. As everything cannot be had in so narrow a compass as a letter, I shall say with brevity, that there is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent (see Book of Mormon, Ether 13:1-12). "Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old." This may suffice, upon the subject of gathering, until my next. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.84-86)

I bolded & enlarged the section about men and angels working together. I believe there are two phases to the gathering, based off my studies of these scriptures and the Davidic Servant. I believe the Davidic Servant will go out first and will join John the Beloved at some point and become the two witnesses. Here's some reinforcement of this idea:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Isaiah 11: 1- 4
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

The Rod is the Davidic Servant:

D&C 113:
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

So I wanted to tie this connection here as I believe the fire proceeding out of the mouth of the two witnesses is the same power / event as referenced in Isaiah about the DS smiting the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips slaying the wicked. Notice how in revelation such breath also devours their enemies (the wicked.)

I believe the Davidic Servant and the two witness will start the work of the gathering and of the building of ZION. I have been studying and praying a lot about this subject and feel pretty strongly that at some point the Davidic Servant himself will call forth the hosts of heaven to gather the elect as you mentioned in your blog. As I have been reading through Isaiah, it seems like the Davidic Servant will have quite a bit to do and has many roles to play:

Isaiah 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 49:6 Isaiah Institute Translation
6 he said: It is too small a thing
for you to be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore those preserved of Israel.
I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations,
that my salvation may be to the end of the earth.

He is the one mighty and strong to set in order the kingdom

D&C 85:7
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

The point I am building up to, is that it seems to me that that the city of Enoch joins an existing city that the Davidic Servant, and the other witness, has already been establishing. Joseph Smith said John the Beloved was already preparing to gather the tribes of Israel. This to me sounds like the work of the two witnesses and that the angels will be called forth at some point - late in that process it seems to me.

[Spaced_Out]

I want to return to this discussion gathered in the name of Christ and the spirit of brotherly love. I would love to get the OPs feedback on this, as this is my current (non-presumptive) interpretation of events. From the quote of Joseph Smith (I added a few more paragraphs from the original quote.)...

It is fundamental that Zion (New Jerusalem) has to be built by the gathering of the elect in the last days to prepare a people for the Masters return. All the prophets have looked forward for that day. Zion can't just be given to the world. The scriptures and teachings of all the prophets indicative as much.

As to your DS, can't see any possibility that John is one of the two prophets. The prophet to the LDS church is the one who hold the keys for the gathering (as given to JS), It is to Ephraim that the lost tribes return not to Judah. New Jerusalem is built well prior to the rebuilding building of the old Jerusalem.

[Spaced_Out]

As for the "dangerous doctrine" assertion, I think you go too far. If his intention is to undermine the work of God, so be it, but if he just errs in doctrine in his search for truth, we should be more forgiving. A story about Joseph Smith and Brother Brown might be of use:

It surprises me that you would even take the time to try and correct me. Somehow I feel honoured, and you are obviously passionate about the issue.... I will give a very short response to make you feel better or that all your writing was not totally wasted.....

Doctrine is either false or true there is no grey area. "friendsofthe: goes to all the trouble to create a web blog and post his thoughts and the looks for support. He acknowledges that it is controversial and the majority of the church must make a paradigm shift in understanding.

To me being told I preach false doctrine is a no biggy - I would challenge that person till I came to a sound understanding of the principles on which it is based.

A key Christ like attribute is not to be easily offended, at the slightest thing they take offence, so true to form I double down and laid it out even thicker. This is not some guy looking for truth but teaching doctrines. I think the only reason he took offence is because I challenged his doctrinal base and then he take it personally and plays the man not the ball... He gave no response to my challenge to his previous blog post, so I turned the thumb screws a bit and he falls over.......

This is such a stupid post I cant believe I got suckered into responding..
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

[Alaris]

Yeah the three people who pointed out the flaw in your initial response are all wrong and it's our jobs to not be offended by our misunderstanding of your perfectly acceptable rudeness. The law of witnesses does not apply here.
It's also not your job to follow D&C 121 and instead selectively pick out the word "Sharpness", misunderstand sharpness as "belligerent antagonism", substitute "betimes" with "constant," remove "when moved upon by the Holy Ghost," and then rely on everyone else's responsibility for long-suffering.

I'm glad we got that settled!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eD9A6d-uHs

[Spaced_Out]

I'm glad we got that settled!

Major confusion and delusion there are a number of New Jerusalem.

GS New Jerusalem
The place where the Saints will gather and Christ will personally reign with them during the Millennium. Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent, and the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory (A of F 1:10). It also refers to a holy city that will come down out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium.

It is a well understood taught doctrine that Zion will be for safety during the tribulations and all those that fight against Zion the New Jerusalem will be destroyed like those that fought against Enoch. How is then the New Jerusalem only coming at or after the second coming...... Even the most casual reading of the scripture will tell one that the New Jerusalem is to be built and per the covenant with the house of Israel prior to the second coming... That is where we will be commanded to flee toooooooooooooooooooooooooo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or is he thinking that the wicked will still be on the earth attacking Zion after the second coming.......


8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

3 Nephi 2122 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.


Moses 7:62
62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.


Articles of Faith 1:10
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


The Lost tribes from the north return to Zion and that is before the second coming...
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.