Dreams and Dreamers

[Gage]

So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.

It sounds like you are saying God is a respecter of persons. If God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, D&C 1:35) then people don't qualify for angelic visitation by receiving the right calling.

Additionally, I have heard general authorities talk about some nobody having angelic visitations. I was at a stake conference in December or January where a General Authority Seventy spoke of some nobody, holding no calling, not temple worthy, and not even an active church member, experienced an angelic visitation that led him back to the church accompanied by the mother of his children (whom he married) and their children.

Angels can be sent to every one of us when necessary. Even President Monson pointed this out in a conference talk where he discussed an interview with his stake president prior to his being called to the Melchizedek priesthood. In that talk President Monson reminded all of us that the Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels.

In light of President Monson's words on this subject, delivered in the Priesthood Session of the April 2015 general conference, do you stand by your claim that angels are sent to prophets and apostles and that angelic visits don't come to the rest of us?

I do not doubt one bit that Angels do not minister to people. They do, for their own personal benefit, They DO NOT minister to people to write books telling us to get ready and pack our bags. Angels do not warn everyday people to warn us. I dont believe these last day book writers have any last day dreams at all. Julie Rowe for example was an opportunist that joined an online group and started reading of others dreams and thought how easy it would be to say she had dreams, no way to prove she didnt! She knew she couldnt just claim she had a dream the night before, so she cleverly made up the story that the Angel told her to wait 9 years or whatever. Now I am sorry but if you believe that kind of nonsense you need help. People say they need to pray to see if this is legit, I tell you that really all you need is a little common sense. You need to stand up for yourself and tell your family to show you why they believe it. Tell them to show you anything that has come true that they have said. Ask them by what power does Julie have to warn them of anything. Just because someone says they had dreams does not mean they had dreams. Its not hard to make up last day dreams, just take a little bit from each of the other nuts that wrote books and quote a few scriptures and whallah.

[DesertWonderer]

One thing strikes me as odd, though - lds pioneers were getting told in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's 2nd Coming in the flesh. Obviously that didn't happen. Were their blessings wrong? Throughout the scriptures we read things like "behold, I come quickly" or "the time is near, even at the gates", etc. The early saints totally believed that the 2nd Coming was "any day now." So what happened? Why are we still getting the same revelation as they did? There's an elderly brother in my ward who says that his patriarchal blessing says the same thing- he's going to be here for the 2nd Coming. It seems like the members of the church have been waiting, warning, and preparing for the 2nd Coming ever since the Restoration up until now, and all because of revelation telling them this. So I think there's something we're not understanding.

A couple of years ago I was praying to know if I would be alive on the earth, in my mortal body, when the 2nd Coming happened. I was told yes, I would be alive for the 2nd Coming BUT that I was not understanding what the 2nd Coming actually was. My expectation of disaster, upheaval, war, etc and then Christ coming down while the wicked are burned is not it.

So later a friend commented to me that his understanding of the 2nd Coming was when people, on an individual basis, receive Christ in the flesh, meaning the 2nd Comforter.

Is it possible that all the upheaval, disaster, tent cities, etc is symbolic and not literal? And that the Christ coming again to the earth happens for the righteous one by one? It could explain why pioneer saints were told they'd be alive for the 2nd coming - maybe it was a promised blessing of receiving the 2nd Comforter, which is why it's still being promised in blessings today.

It would also mean that all the wickedness and darkness that we confront in our lives is the time of tribulation and testing that occurs before one is prepared to receive Christ. Standing in holy places, fleeing to Zion, tent cities in the mountains - all of these things could be symbolic of the spiritual battle going on, not the physical one.

HBL: "I should like now to make reference to some of these. The first is the spread of rumor and gossip (we have mentioned this before) which, when once started, gains momentum as each telling becomes more fanciful, until unwittingly those who wish to dwell on the sensational repeat them in firesides, in classes, in Relief Society gatherings and priesthood quorum classes without first verifying the source before becoming a party to causing speculation and discussions that steal time away from the things that would be profitable and beneficial and enlightening to their souls.

Just an example: I understand that there is a widely circulated story that I was alleged to have had a patriarchal blessing (I don’t know whether any of you have heard about that) that had to do with the coming of the Savior and the ten tribes of Israel.

In the first place, a patriarchal blessing is a sacred document to the person who has received it and is never given for publication and, as all patriarchal blessings, should be kept as a private possession to the one who has received it.

And second, with reference to that which I was alleged to have had, suffice it to say that such a quotation is incorrect and without foundation in fact.

There is one thing that shocks me: I have learned, in some instances, that those who have heard of these rumors are disappointed when I tell them they are not so. They seem to have enjoyed believing a rumor without substance of fact. I would earnestly urge that no such idle gossip be spread abroad without making certain as to whether or not it is true."

[brlenox]

I figured as much - however I wanted to make sure that anyone reading this also understands. Among the many accusations that have been thrown at me, misogyny is just another one. Keep in mind, that is not my personality at all. The reason for the accusation is because I don't believe the same things as my wife and she searches for reasons that that might be.

I welcome additional discussion and thoughts. deep subjects don't scare me. If I end up not feeling right about something - I don't have a problem walking away. The trouble with my particular situation related to the dreamers is that I can't shun it because it has become so much a part of everything that my wife focuses on. I used the word invade very intentionally, in my OP.

One more question, someone in one of their responses indicated there might be some mental illness involved but I did not remember getting that exact sense from your OP. Can you elaborate just enough to confirm. I'm not looking for any details but just a sense of degree or type of illness that is being observed and as well how long and what other manifestations you have observed.

[Onsdag]

Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

One of the favorite scriptures followers of the above like to point out is the prophecy of Joel that in the last days the Lord will pour out His spirit on all people and there will be dreams, visions, etc. (see Joel 2:28-29).

However, conveniently forgotten or neglected by these same people is the fact that the Lord has also forewarned us of false prophets, teachers, dreamers, etc. in the last days as well.

"And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; For many shall come in my name,... and shall deceive many" (JS-M 1:5-6, also Mark 13:5-6, Luke 21:8)

And...

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:22-23)

And...

"Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." (Jeremiah 14:14)

And...

Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. ... I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. ... I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. ... Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord. (Jeremiah 23:16, 21, 25-27, 31-32)

And...

For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the Lord. ... Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, of Ahab the son of Kolaiah, and of Zedekiah the son of Maaseiah, which prophesy a lie unto you in my name; Behold, I will deliver them into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall slay them before your eyes; (Jeremiah 29:8-9,21)

And one final example...

1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;
3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! ...
They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God. ...
17 ¶Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.(Ezekiel 13:1-3,6-9,17-23)

I would love to expound on this more, but I have to run now and so it'll have to wait.

[lone-knight]

One thing strikes me as odd, though - lds pioneers were getting told in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's 2nd Coming in the flesh. Obviously that didn't happen. Were their blessings wrong? Throughout the scriptures we read things like "behold, I come quickly" or "the time is near, even at the gates", etc. The early saints totally believed that the 2nd Coming was "any day now." So what happened? Why are we still getting the same revelation as they did? There's an elderly brother in my ward who says that his patriarchal blessing says the same thing- he's going to be here for the 2nd Coming. It seems like the members of the church have been waiting, warning, and preparing for the 2nd Coming ever since the Restoration up until now, and all because of revelation telling them this. So I think there's something we're not understanding.

A couple of years ago I was praying to know if I would be alive on the earth, in my mortal body, when the 2nd Coming happened. I was told yes, I would be alive for the 2nd Coming BUT that I was not understanding what the 2nd Coming actually was. My expectation of disaster, upheaval, war, etc and then Christ coming down while the wicked are burned is not it.

So later a friend commented to me that his understanding of the 2nd Coming was when people, on an individual basis, receive Christ in the flesh, meaning the 2nd Comforter.

Is it possible that all the upheaval, disaster, tent cities, etc is symbolic and not literal? And that the Christ coming again to the earth happens for the righteous one by one? It could explain why pioneer saints were told they'd be alive for the 2nd coming - maybe it was a promised blessing of receiving the 2nd Comforter, which is why it's still being promised in blessings today.

It would also mean that all the wickedness and darkness that we confront in our lives is the time of tribulation and testing that occurs before one is prepared to receive Christ. Standing in holy places, fleeing to Zion, tent cities in the mountains - all of these things could be symbolic of the spiritual battle going on, not the physical one.

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

[kittycat51]

A lot of talk here about Rowe and Sosa, but what about Patriarch Iohani Wolfgramm's dreams/visions? How do you all think about him?

[lone-knight]

You are describing exactly how my husband felt with me, and I too had the exact same problem as your wife - thinking he was uninspired because he did not share the same desire to really know and believe as I did. But he did pray about it and received the same answer as you have, that many of these dreamers are false prophets. And as it was, I agreed with him, and slowly I discovered how false some of these popular ones were. I started to notice patterns and could tell something was off when a dream was shared. I realized that while some of my dreams were from the right spirit, others were not or at least I interpreted them incorrectly. So what I'm trying to get at is that it is very okay that you don't feel right about these dreamers and their claimed visions. While you hold to your impressions that these dreamers are not true messengers, admit to her that you don't know the future but you are doing your best to make sure your family is safe and prepared, and ask for her patience as you are learning. I also agree that it is a good idea to pray over and bless your home and family, asking for protection, that they be not influenced by evil.

On the flip side I will say that I've come to understand that desire, or the desire to believe something is true, usually is a prerequisite to having it confirmed to you by the Holy Ghost. So if there is no desire to believe something, for example you've already rejected a notion using your own understanding and are skeptical, you probably aren't going to have any certain truth revealed to you. The other factor involved is sacrifice. If we want to progress in understanding truth, we must sacrifice something, either our will, or the lure of something we could have, in order to do what is right or to put another first in our lives. At least that has been my experience.

Wow Sarah! Thank you! I am glad to know that others have faced similar issues and come through it. I can tell you that there was a time when my desire was full, to know the truth. I will admit being uneasy before, but I tried to set those thoughts aside, to pray and know the direction that the Lord would have me take. To be quite honest, those answers are the only reason that I strive to remain married. All of these things have wrecked havoc with my kids and their lives.
I have told her that I am not comfortable with the dreamers and that I don't know what the future holds. Her immediate response is that if I don't know what the future holds... she does, and we need to follow her.

[lone-knight]

I understand what you mean, but that almost sounds like He's being...idk- deceitful. Should He tell people He's coming really soon if He's really not? Even if it's to get them to be more watchful and focused on Him, does that mean it's okay for Him to repeatedly tell people in their patriarchal blessings that they'll be alive for the 2nd Coming and then they end up dying?
I know a lot of people say "Well, maybe they'll be there for the 2nd Coming in a resurrected body, so that would still count" or "timing is relative; when He says "soon", He really means in Celestial time so it's more like a few hundred years." Neither of those explanations seem very strong to me.

Since the pioneer times people have been told to prepare for the 2nd Coming and then it doesn't happen. I think we really have to consider that we may not understand what the 2nd Coming is. I did a search before and if I remember correctly, I couldn't find any scriptures that say that Jesus will come again. They all said something like "the Son of Man" or "Christ", but not "Jesus of Nazareth". (I might be wrong). But "Son of Man" and "Christ" are titles that can be used for Jesus but also for anyone else who becomes a "christ" or a "son of man."

An interesting perspective. I'm not sure that it feels like truth, but I really enjoy the question and the willingness to share it. Thank you!

[lone-knight]

I do not doubt one bit that Angels do not minister to people. They do, for their own personal benefit, They DO NOT minister to people to write books telling us to get ready and pack our bags. Angels do not warn everyday people to warn us. I dont believe these last day book writers have any last day dreams at all. Julie Rowe for example was an opportunist that joined an online group and started reading of others dreams and thought how easy it would be to say she had dreams, no way to prove she didnt! She knew she couldnt just claim she had a dream the night before, so she cleverly made up the story that the Angel told her to wait 9 years or whatever. Now I am sorry but if you believe that kind of nonsense you need help. People say they need to pray to see if this is legit, I tell you that really all you need is a little common sense. You need to stand up for yourself and tell your family to show you why they believe it. Tell them to show you anything that has come true that they have said. Ask them by what power does Julie have to warn them of anything. Just because someone says they had dreams does not mean they had dreams. Its not hard to make up last day dreams, just take a little bit from each of the other nuts that wrote books and quote a few scriptures and whallah.

The skeptic in me feels your last statements exactly. Then another part of my wants to assume the best of people and hope that the sincerity exists in what they think. I don't know any of these people personally and so I don't presume to judge their intentions. That being said, I can say that the fruits that have been born, in my family, from all of these things have been pretty bitter. That is part of what forms my opinion. I have seen a lot of anxiety and turmoil - without any sort of seeming concern on the effect that the publication of these dreams may have caused.

[RAB]

So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.

It sounds like you are saying God is a respecter of persons. If God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, D&C 1:35) then people don't qualify for angelic visitation by receiving the right calling.

Additionally, I have heard general authorities talk about some nobody having angelic visitations. I was at a stake conference in December or January where a General Authority Seventy spoke of some nobody, holding no calling, not temple worthy, and not even an active church member, experienced an angelic visitation that led him back to the church accompanied by the mother of his children (whom he married) and their children.

Angels can be sent to every one of us when necessary. Even President Monson pointed this out in a conference talk where he discussed an interview with his stake president prior to his being called to the Melchizedek priesthood. In that talk President Monson reminded all of us that the Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels.

In light of President Monson's words on this subject, delivered in the Priesthood Session of the April 2015 general conference, do you stand by your claim that angels are sent to prophets and apostles and that angelic visits don't come to the rest of us?

As I read through RAB's comment, I didn't pull quite the same thing out, as you did. I take it more as we are indeed all able to receive these special experiences, but it is not on the general populous to disseminate this information. In part because it can lead to confusion as to where the direction is supposed to come from. The Lord has stated that his house is a house of order and if dreamer has their followers because of the belief of being able to closer to God, by association, that could lead to a lot of confusion.

Correct. I don't think it is impossible, just very rare...and when it does happen, its with people who can be quiet about it. We know that angels visit some folks who are not worthy when God has to intervene so that His plan is not frustrated (see angelic visitation to Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah, or Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel, for example). I think what Moroni is pointing out is those who receive angelic ministrations with guidance on how to lead God's people will only be His chosen servants. I am sure the apostles and first presidency have such experiences, but they don't talk about them for good reason.

I would also add the ministering of angels does not necessarily mean that you see them when they minister to you. In some of the darkest hours of our lives I believe they are their ministering to our souls. But it certainly does not preclude them appearing to us either. I believe any of us, if we do as Moroni instructs (are of firm mind, strong faith, and walk in every form of godliness) may have such a visit if God so willed. But I wouldn't bet on it, nor would I feel somehow unworthy if it did not happen. We are supposed to walk by faith during our mortal probation, so I wouldn't beat myself up if I never had those experiences. Living by the Spirit's guidance is enough.

So those who are claiming they are having angelic ministrations and then take it upon themselves to try and preach according to those ministrations, since it is not in the proper order you can pretty much bet their visitations didn't come from God (Korihor is a great example). Those visitations that guide the Church come only to the chosen vessels ofthe Lord, as Mornoi describes.

[lone-knight]

HBL: "I should like now to make reference to some of these. The first is the spread of rumor and gossip (we have mentioned this before) which, when once started, gains momentum as each telling becomes more fanciful, until unwittingly those who wish to dwell on the sensational repeat them in firesides, in classes, in Relief Society gatherings and priesthood quorum classes without first verifying the source before becoming a party to causing speculation and discussions that steal time away from the things that would be profitable and beneficial and enlightening to their souls.

Just an example: I understand that there is a widely circulated story that I was alleged to have had a patriarchal blessing (I don’t know whether any of you have heard about that) that had to do with the coming of the Savior and the ten tribes of Israel.

In the first place, a patriarchal blessing is a sacred document to the person who has received it and is never given for publication and, as all patriarchal blessings, should be kept as a private possession to the one who has received it.

And second, with reference to that which I was alleged to have had, suffice it to say that such a quotation is incorrect and without foundation in fact.

There is one thing that shocks me: I have learned, in some instances, that those who have heard of these rumors are disappointed when I tell them they are not so. They seem to have enjoyed believing a rumor without substance of fact. I would earnestly urge that no such idle gossip be spread abroad without making certain as to whether or not it is true."

Thank you so much, for this. Is there any way that I could see the original source?

[RAB]

HBL: "I should like now to make reference to some of these. The first is the spread of rumor and gossip (we have mentioned this before) which, when once started, gains momentum as each telling becomes more fanciful, until unwittingly those who wish to dwell on the sensational repeat them in firesides, in classes, in Relief Society gatherings and priesthood quorum classes without first verifying the source before becoming a party to causing speculation and discussions that steal time away from the things that would be profitable and beneficial and enlightening to their souls.

Just an example: I understand that there is a widely circulated story that I was alleged to have had a patriarchal blessing (I don’t know whether any of you have heard about that) that had to do with the coming of the Savior and the ten tribes of Israel.

In the first place, a patriarchal blessing is a sacred document to the person who has received it and is never given for publication and, as all patriarchal blessings, should be kept as a private possession to the one who has received it.

And second, with reference to that which I was alleged to have had, suffice it to say that such a quotation is incorrect and without foundation in fact.

There is one thing that shocks me: I have learned, in some instances, that those who have heard of these rumors are disappointed when I tell them they are not so. They seem to have enjoyed believing a rumor without substance of fact. I would earnestly urge that no such idle gossip be spread abroad without making certain as to whether or not it is true."

Thank you so much, for this. Is there any way that I could see the original source?

I am very skeptical of second-hand descriptions of what someone's patriarchal blessing said. Furthermore, I doubt that patriarch's get revelation on when the Lord's second coming is. If He wouldn't reveal it to Joseph Smith, why would He reveal it to someone through a Patriarch? That doesn't pass the smell test.

[lone-knight]

One more question, someone in one of their responses indicated there might be some mental illness involved but I did not remember getting that exact sense from your OP. Can you elaborate just enough to confirm. I'm not looking for any details but just a sense of degree or type of illness that is being observed and as well how long and what other manifestations you have observed.

No worries. I am happy to help provide some context. Please understand as I carefully share. My wife has often struggled with organization, but in the fall of 2014, our baby girl was born and things have taken a dramatic turn since then. With the birth of our little girl, she states that she had a sense of urgency and begged the Lord to just let her sleep and then she would try to figure out the urgency.
Around Christmas of that same year, she happened upon Roger K Young's book and saw it as a sign of what she should be looking into, then she read the First Presidency message of Sept. 2014 and decided that it was all connected. In late Jan. 2015, I came home from work, to find her vacuum packing winter clothing, in preparation for the call out. To be honest, I had noticed strange behavior before this, but just chalked it up to some of her sometimes odd behavior in conjunction to being a new mom.
We dealt with months of figuring out counselors and doctors. In May 2015 she was diagnosed schizophrenic by a psychiatrist that saw her two times. To this day, I am not certain that the diagnosis is 100%, but that is the only formal work that has been done. I can say that there are aspects of her actions that are symptomatic of schizophrenia, understanding that it is a spectrum disorder and hard to nail down.
She has seen several counselors, a couple of bishops, even had our stake president show up on our doorstep one evening. The story usually ends up repeating itself every time, with every person. She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does. They try to counsel with her and it ultimately results in her not listening to a word they have to say because she has decided that it is pointless to try and help them understand why they have to have 1+ years of food storage and winter camping gear by the end of the day.
She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of.

[lone-knight]

I would love to expound on this more, but I have to run now and so it'll have to wait.

Thank you so much for this. Well thought out and I appreciate the references. With Onsdag, brlenox, and DesertWonderer chiming in - the only poster that hasn't (whom I love to read) is AI 2.0. Y'all are fabulous!

[lone-knight]

A lot of talk here about Rowe and Sosa, but what about Patriarch Iohani Wolfgramm's dreams/visions? How do you all think about him?

That is a great question. I thought I had a handle on most of these current dreamers (I hear their names all the time). I admit that this is one I haven't heard.

[lone-knight]

Correct. I don't think it is impossible, just very rare...and when it does happen, its with people who can be quiet about it. We know that angels visit some folks who are not worthy when God has to intervene so that His plan is not frustrated (see angelic visitation to Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah, or Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel, for example). I think what Moroni is pointing out is those who receive angelic ministrations with guidance on how to lead God's people will only be His chosen servants. I am sure the apostles and first presidency have such experiences, but they don't talk about them for good reason.

I would also add the ministering of angels does not necessarily mean that you see them when they minister to you. In some of the darkest hours of our lives I believe they are their ministering to our souls. But it certainly does not preclude them appearing to us either. I believe any of us, if we do as Moroni instructs (are of firm mind, strong faith, and walk in every form of godliness) may have such a visit if God so willed. But I wouldn't bet on it, nor would I feel somehow unworthy if it did not happen. We are supposed to walk by faith during our mortal probation, so I wouldn't beat myself up if I never had those experiences. Living by the Spirit's guidance is enough.

So those who are claiming they are having angelic ministrations and then take it upon themselves to try and preach according to those ministrations, since it is not in the proper order you can pretty much bet their visitations didn't come from God (Korihor is a great example). Those visitations that guide the Church come only to the chosen vessels of the Lord, as Mornoi describes.

Thank you RAB, I'm glad to know that I seem to have understood correctly. Again, I think it comes from wanting to assume the best of everyone. The clarification really helped me. With your further expounding, I can say that this is the explanation that makes the most sense to me and my understanding - limited as it may be.

[RAB]

A lot of talk here about Rowe and Sosa, but what about Patriarch Iohani Wolfgramm's dreams/visions? How do you all think about him?

That is a great question. I thought I had a handle on most of these current dreamers (I hear their names all the time). I admit that this is one I haven't heard.

I don't doubt anyone has what they consider spiritual dreams or visions. We all have dreams at times that can be faith promoting and help us along our path. What I doubt is the predictive ability of anyone's dreams or visions unless it comes in the proper order, through those who hold the Keys of the Priesthood and have stewardship over us. God is not an author of confusion.

[lone-knight]

I am very skeptical of second-hand descriptions of what someone's patriarchal blessing said. Furthermore, I doubt that patriarch's get revelation on when the Lord's second coming is. If He wouldn't reveal it to Joseph Smith, why would He reveal it to someone through a Patriarch? That doesn't pass the smell test.

My tendencies exactly. Even on the other end, I'd love the source for the HBL quote, explaining as much. I think that things can get easily twisted. I think that most everyone wants to tell a great story and hold the audience's attention. Sometimes the efforts to do that come at the expense of clarity and the whole truth.

[DesertWonderer]

A lot of talk here about Rowe and Sosa, but what about Patriarch Iohani Wolfgramm's dreams/visions? How do you all think about him?

That is a great question. I thought I had a handle on most of these current dreamers (I hear their names all the time). I admit that this is one I haven't heard.

After researching the "vision" that has been attributed to IW, it turns out it is a second hand account. As such, for me at least it holds no validity. Even if it were first hand, the events were to have happened during GWB's term in office. So it's a FAIL either way.

[DesertWonderer]

I am very skeptical of second-hand descriptions of what someone's patriarchal blessing said. Furthermore, I doubt that patriarch's get revelation on when the Lord's second coming is. If He wouldn't reveal it to Joseph Smith, why would He reveal it to someone through a Patriarch? That doesn't pass the smell test.

My tendencies exactly. Even on the other end, I'd love the source for the HBL quote, explaining as much. I think that things can get easily twisted. I think that most everyone wants to tell a great story and hold the audience's attention. Sometimes the efforts to do that come at the expense of clarity and the whole truth.

The reference for the quote was the LDS.org link I posted previously in the thread. There is a TON of wisdom and truth in that talk. It was given by an ORDAINED prophet of God--go figure.

[h_p]

Correct. I don't think it is impossible, just very rare...and when it does happen, its with people who can be quiet about it.

What's your take on this quote from Elder F. Enzio Busche's book, Yearning for the Living God?

In one assignment, I was called to watch over what was happening in various temples throughout the world. One of my responsibilities was to safeguard the translation of sacred texts into various languages. At a Christmas social once, I was sitting next to a woman from a recently opened country in Eastern Europe who was in the West for the first time and who was helping with the translation work. She was a convert of a little over a year.

I asked her how she liked America, and she was very enthusiastic and positive and had many good things to say. She told me that she was living with a family in Salt Lake City. She went to Church with them every Sunday and enjoyed the meetings and admired the members of the ward. Suddenly, she stopped and said, “One of these days, I wish I could invite all the members of my Salt Lake ward to come to my home branch.” I asked her about her branch.

She told me about the poor circumstances they were all living in and about how difficult it was for the members to get to their Sunday meetings and the many sacrifices that they joyfully made. She said the most inspiring time for the members in her branch was testimony meeting that was held on the Sunday of fasting. They all looked forward to hearing their fellow members report about the Lord’s working in their lives. They, of course, would not part until everyone had given a testimony because they were all anxious to share the many miracles happening around them. They could not say enough about the love and most gracious care of the Lord. Then she said, “Once in awhile, we have holy angels visit and comfort and strengthen us.” She added with a smile, “Can you imagine? I have found people in Salt Lake City who have never seen an angel.” She laughed as if that were the strangest thing she had ever heard.

Is it inappropriate for the people in this branch to be talking about their angelic visitations? Or do you think they're just lying?

[lone-knight]

Correct. I don't think it is impossible, just very rare...and when it does happen, its with people who can be quiet about it.

What's your take on this quote from Elder F. Enzio Busche's book, Yearning for the Living God?

In one assignment, I was called to watch over what was happening in various temples throughout the world. One of my responsibilities was to safeguard the translation of sacred texts into various languages. At a Christmas social once, I was sitting next to a woman from a recently opened country in Eastern Europe who was in the West for the first time and who was helping with the translation work. She was a convert of a little over a year.

I asked her how she liked America, and she was very enthusiastic and positive and had many good things to say. She told me that she was living with a family in Salt Lake City. She went to Church with them every Sunday and enjoyed the meetings and admired the members of the ward. Suddenly, she stopped and said, “One of these days, I wish I could invite all the members of my Salt Lake ward to come to my home branch.” I asked her about her branch.

She told me about the poor circumstances they were all living in and about how difficult it was for the members to get to their Sunday meetings and the many sacrifices that they joyfully made. She said the most inspiring time for the members in her branch was testimony meeting that was held on the Sunday of fasting. They all looked forward to hearing their fellow members report about the Lord’s working in their lives. They, of course, would not part until everyone had given a testimony because they were all anxious to share the many miracles happening around them. They could not say enough about the love and most gracious care of the Lord. Then she said, “Once in awhile, we have holy angels visit and comfort and strengthen us.” She added with a smile, “Can you imagine? I have found people in Salt Lake City who have never seen an angel.” She laughed as if that were the strangest thing she had ever heard.

Is it inappropriate for the people in this branch to be talking about their angelic visitations? Or do you think they're just lying?

These are fair questions and I am not sure as to what the answer is. I do refer back to my previous thoughts and that these people weren't then asked to broadcast/publish their angelic visitations. They don't seem to have been instructed to share these things beyond their little branch. Instead, it seems that this may be lumped into that fairly 'rare occurrence' category that was mentioned before. I do think that there are times and places where the veil can be thin. Just the same, I don't think that such visitations are commonplace. I could be wrong. I am just expressing what I think.

[Sarah]

One more question, someone in one of their responses indicated there might be some mental illness involved but I did not remember getting that exact sense from your OP. Can you elaborate just enough to confirm. I'm not looking for any details but just a sense of degree or type of illness that is being observed and as well how long and what other manifestations you have observed.

No worries. I am happy to help provide some context. Please understand as I carefully share. My wife has often struggled with organization, but in the fall of 2014, our baby girl was born and things have taken a dramatic turn since then. With the birth of our little girl, she states that she had a sense of urgency and begged the Lord to just let her sleep and then she would try to figure out the urgency.
Around Christmas of that same year, she happened upon Roger K Young's book and saw it as a sign of what she should be looking into, then she read the First Presidency message of Sept. 2014 and decided that it was all connected. In late Jan. 2015, I came home from work, to find her vacuum packing winter clothing, in preparation for the call out. To be honest, I had noticed strange behavior before this, but just chalked it up to some of her sometimes odd behavior in conjunction to being a new mom.
We dealt with months of figuring out counselors and doctors. In May 2015 she was diagnosed schizophrenic by a psychiatrist that saw her two times. To this day, I am not certain that the diagnosis is 100%, but that is the only formal work that has been done. I can say that there are aspects of her actions that are symptomatic of schizophrenia, understanding that it is a spectrum disorder and hard to nail down.
She has seen several counselors, a couple of bishops, even had our stake president show up on our doorstep one evening. The story usually ends up repeating itself every time, with every person. She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does. They try to counsel with her and it ultimately results in her not listening to a word they have to say because she has decided that it is pointless to try and help them understand why they have to have 1+ years of food storage and winter camping gear by the end of the day.
She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of.

So this has only been going on for a few years. Hopefully she will calm down in another year or two assuming that life is still humming along normally. One thing that helped us is that my husband asked me if we could live our lives - as far as planning for the future and what we do with the kids - as if nothing was going to happen for the next 20 years. I agreed to this, and while I was still preparing like it could be next week that we needed everything, I agreed to make sure we were ALSO preparing for a life that hummed along as normal.

I'm sorry to hear she has felt so desperate to ask for money from strangers. This desperation shows a lack of trust in the Lord. She obviously also doesn't trust you or those who are concerned about her behavior, and really the only thing that will resolve her lack of trust in you is for her to learn to trust the Lord. You can do all you can to earn her trust, that you really do love her and want to give her good gifts. You just have to help her understand that you have certain boundaries on your giving that don't stem from resentment or selfishness. But ultimately she needs to realize that physical survival and preparedness is not as important as spiritual survival and preparedness. And that realization will not come from you telling her to think that way. She will need to come to it on her own somehow, that what is really important is trusting the Lord to take care of you after all you can do. (Sorry, I feel like I keep repeating myself!)

[lone-knight]

So this has only been going on for a few years. Hopefully she will calm down in another year or two assuming that life is still humming along normally. One thing that helped us is that my husband asked me if we could live our lives - as far as planning for the future and what we do with the kids - as if nothing was going to happen for the next 20 years. I agreed to this, and while I was still preparing like it could be next week that we needed everything, I agreed to make sure we were ALSO preparing for a life that hummed along as normal.

I'm sorry to hear she has felt so desperate to ask for money from strangers. This desperation shows a lack of trust in the Lord. She obviously also doesn't trust you or those who are concerned about her behavior, and really the only thing that will resolve her lack of trust in you is for her to learn to trust the Lord. You can do all you can to earn her trust, that you really do love her and want to give her good gifts. You just have to help her understand that you have certain boundaries on your giving that don't stem from resentment or selfishness. But ultimately she needs to realize that physical survival and preparedness is not as important as spiritual survival and preparedness. And that realization will not come from you telling her to think that way. She will need to come to it on her own somehow, that what is really important is trusting the Lord to take care of you after all you can do. (Sorry, I feel like I keep repeating myself!)

No problem, Sarah. I appreciate the insight and perspective. The funny part is that there are some other things that she has done that I'd just as soon keep to myself. Ultimately, I am doing my best, while understanding that I am nowhere near perfect.

[RAB]

Correct. I don't think it is impossible, just very rare...and when it does happen, its with people who can be quiet about it.

What's your take on this quote from Elder F. Enzio Busche's book, Yearning for the Living God?

In one assignment, I was called to watch over what was happening in various temples throughout the world. One of my responsibilities was to safeguard the translation of sacred texts into various languages. At a Christmas social once, I was sitting next to a woman from a recently opened country in Eastern Europe who was in the West for the first time and who was helping with the translation work. She was a convert of a little over a year.

I asked her how she liked America, and she was very enthusiastic and positive and had many good things to say. She told me that she was living with a family in Salt Lake City. She went to Church with them every Sunday and enjoyed the meetings and admired the members of the ward. Suddenly, she stopped and said, “One of these days, I wish I could invite all the members of my Salt Lake ward to come to my home branch.” I asked her about her branch.

She told me about the poor circumstances they were all living in and about how difficult it was for the members to get to their Sunday meetings and the many sacrifices that they joyfully made. She said the most inspiring time for the members in her branch was testimony meeting that was held on the Sunday of fasting. They all looked forward to hearing their fellow members report about the Lord’s working in their lives. They, of course, would not part until everyone had given a testimony because they were all anxious to share the many miracles happening around them. They could not say enough about the love and most gracious care of the Lord. Then she said, “Once in awhile, we have holy angels visit and comfort and strengthen us.” She added with a smile, “Can you imagine? I have found people in Salt Lake City who have never seen an angel.” She laughed as if that were the strangest thing she had ever heard.

Is it inappropriate for the people in this branch to be talking about their angelic visitations? Or do you think they're just lying?

I have no idea if she was lying. She certainly could have been lying. But, given the difficult circumstances that little branch was going through, it is not unthinkable that God would support it with some extraordinary visitors due to the faith and sacrifices made by the branch members. I think people who have sacred experiences often share them with General Authorities. I don't think that is violating the Lord's trust. What she did not do, though, was publish a book and draw followers after her. I just don't think the Lord works that way.