Dreams and Dreamers

[Gage]

I have no idea if she was lying. She certainly could have been lying. But, given the difficult circumstances that little branch was going through, it is not unthinkable that God would support it with some extraordinary visitors due to the faith and sacrifices made by the branch members. I think people who have sacred experiences often share them with General Authorities. I don't think that is violating the Lord's trust. What she did not do, though, was publish a book and draw followers after her. I just don't think the Lord works that way.

I definitely agree that their experiences were due to their faith and sacrifice. It's something I'm trying to match, myself. But it sounds like from the quote that it was common for her and her fellow branch members to share these experiences with each other. Note how she thought it was odd to meet people who haven't had them.

Not trying to start an argument or anything--I'm certainly no expert on angelic visitations. Just trying to give something to think about. Personally, I'd love to live in a culture where these things are commonplace and commonly talked about. I think the fact that it's NOT common and even frowned upon to talk about is a sign of the spiritual immaturity of our church, at least here in the US. And I'm including myself in that criticism.

Because so many people lie about them to get the praise of the world, (or sell a book) and try to show how spiritual they are when they are really not. Thats why the scriptures say these things will happen right before the new government of Zion starts, or right after a lot of destruction, I believe to give the people inspiration, and because the people will be righteous. If anyone has a dream then, you can know that it is true because there will only be "truthful" people there.

[RAB]

I have no idea if she was lying. She certainly could have been lying. But, given the difficult circumstances that little branch was going through, it is not unthinkable that God would support it with some extraordinary visitors due to the faith and sacrifices made by the branch members. I think people who have sacred experiences often share them with General Authorities. I don't think that is violating the Lord's trust. What she did not do, though, was publish a book and draw followers after her. I just don't think the Lord works that way.

I definitely agree that their experiences were due to their faith and sacrifice. It's something I'm trying to match, myself. But it sounds like from the quote that it was common for her and her fellow branch members to share these experiences with each other. Note how she thought it was odd to meet people who haven't had them.

Not trying to start an argument or anything--I'm certainly no expert on angelic visitations. Just trying to give something to think about. Personally, I'd love to live in a culture where these things are commonplace and commonly talked about. I think the fact that it's NOT common and even frowned upon to talk about is a sign of the spiritual immaturity of our church, at least here in the US. And I'm including myself in that criticism.

I don't take it as arguing, so no worries from me. I likewise am no expert on angelic visitations. I draw my ideas on their rarity and purpose from the scriptures and teachings of the prophets. For one, we have been counseled not to seek after angelic ministrations, but to seek the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Two, we have been counseled not to reveal sacred experiences with one another, especially in fast and testimony meeting. So, I am bothered a bit by those who do, well-intentioned or not. In the case you mentioned, I don't think it would be wrong for them to talk about it with each other since they are all insiders, so to speak (they all experienced the same thing). And though I have no problem with the idea that it really could have happened, I would not say it certainly happened. The problem for me is that it was written by a GA based on what someone told him. Even if the lady was not dishonest, which we have no way of knowing, the problem is that the GA presents hearsay as evidence. The reason hearsay evidence is inadmissible in court is because it is very unreliable. The person making the statement is not in court, so that their testimony can be cross-examined and clarified. For example, what if instead of saying "they saw," she actually said they "felt the angels there," and was surprised by how many people in Salt Lake did not recognize the angels in their presence. But the GA remembered it as saw the angels there. See, just changing a couple of words makes a huge difference in what actually happened. So, I am very hesitant to believe anything based on hearsay, which is the orchard of Mormon myths.

The Church Counsel in Handbook 2, "From time to time, statements are circulated that are inaccurately attributed to leaders of the Church. Many such statements distort current Church teachings and are based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or other informal means. Church members should not teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved Church sources, such as official statements, communications, and publications.

Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only." So who knows what actually was said to the GA. We only know what he reported from his memory.

I do believe there can be great harm in sharing sacred personal experiences. Joseph Smith said if we couldn't keep a secret the Lord will not bless us with those experiences in the first place. But why would the Lord want us to keep those sacred experiences private? For one, sharing those experiences with others may be meat before milk...they may not be prepared for them, and really the Lord should decide when folks are ready for those, rather than us. Two, in sharing those experiences, some might begin to build their testimonies on other people's experiences and even become followers of them, so to speak, instead of finding a witness of their own. Three, those people who build their testimonies on the sacred experiences of others, rather than seek their own witness, are easily duped and lead astray. Four, very faithful members of the Church, who are on the path to salvation may become discouraged because they have been faithful their whole lives and never had such a miraculous experience as an angelic visitation. Is it any wonder that the General Authorities rarely mention sacred experiences? I personally believe they are forbidden from doing so for some of the reasons mentioned above, as well as other reasons.

In sum, I don't think you have to be a prophet or apostle to have a sacred experience, such as an angelic visit on this side of the veil. However, I do believe they are very rare indeed, and they don't come to those who cannot keep them secret. Seeking after those kinds of experiences is not proper, in my opinion, but seeking to be worthy of them certainly is. But no one should ever question their worthiness before the Lord simply because they have never seen an angel. His response in the future may simply be, "You were doing fine with the Holy Ghost, so I never thought you needed an angel."

[lone-knight]

I have no idea if she was lying. She certainly could have been lying. But, given the difficult circumstances that little branch was going through, it is not unthinkable that God would support it with some extraordinary visitors due to the faith and sacrifices made by the branch members. I think people who have sacred experiences often share them with General Authorities. I don't think that is violating the Lord's trust. What she did not do, though, was publish a book and draw followers after her. I just don't think the Lord works that way.

I definitely agree that their experiences were due to their faith and sacrifice. It's something I'm trying to match, myself. But it sounds like from the quote that it was common for her and her fellow branch members to share these experiences with each other. Note how she thought it was odd to meet people who haven't had them.

Not trying to start an argument or anything--I'm certainly no expert on angelic visitations. Just trying to give something to think about. Personally, I'd love to live in a culture where these things are commonplace and commonly talked about. I think the fact that it's NOT common and even frowned upon to talk about is a sign of the spiritual immaturity of our church, at least here in the US. And I'm including myself in that criticism.

An astute observation and while I am not sure as to the 'spiritual maturity' part of your comment, I can wholeheartedly agree that living in such an environment would be incredible. I think as long are we are being respectful, ther isn't an argument to be had. Differences of opinion or interpretation need not lead to heated conversation. As for frowning upon such marvelous occurrences, I'll say that I don't frown upon them - I am simply wary of them.
I frequently have to ask the question of "What is the purpose of such an event?' In my observance, the Lord has purposes behind the actions that he takes. If there is no purpose or if the purpose seems twisted toward the lifting of someone as a new prophet - I get VERY cautious.

[Mcox]

Lone knight, I would also add to the conversation that many who believe in these dreams and NDE are also involved in energy healing. I would caution your wife about getting involved with this. Julie Rowe was an energy healer and I believe many of her manifestations were given because of her involvement in occult methods of muscle testing and speaking to spirits. In my experience I have seen many who are involved with energy healing actually become more psychotic, not less.
Also to address her strange behavior, it is very typical of those who have bought into the tent city philosophy. My dear friend cashed in her husbands 401k because the "spirit" told her to buy 2 years worth of food storage. She also told me that her teenag son would never go on a mission because they would all be in tent cities in the mountains. These dreams and predictions bring about hysteria and radical behavior. The gospel of Jesus Christ is completely the opposite. It is calm and full of hope. A call out to tent cities is not going to happen in my opinion.

[butterfly]

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

The church allows family members to access copies of their ancestor's patriarchal blessings. Some of these are made available to view online as well. Here's the link to Joseph Smith's patriarchal blessing, given to him by his father http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1834/2

Part of it says: "Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer Come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen"

There is even a book made up of patriarchal blessings from the early days of the church
https://www.amazon.com/Patriarchal-Bles ... +blessings

In the synopsis it says: "Contained in this volume are 755 blessings from 1833 through 1845 delivered by the church's first oracles, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, and William Smith. Prominent in these blessings is the promise that the reciepeints will live to witness the Second Coming, together with other period-specific expectations and doctrinally based beliefs. "

Why do I bring this up?
Your wife believes she has received revelation and she is acting on it. This is exactly what we are taught to do in church. She has received the same kind of revelation that prophets, patriarchs, and other worthy priesthood holders have been receiving since the church's inception, which is: you're going to be alive during the 2nd Coming so be prepared.

If you are going to understand why your wife's revelation is "wrong", then you should probably start with understanding why so many patriarchal blessings since pioneer days have been "wrong", too. It is entirely possible that the whole dreamer crowd is getting the same type of "revelation" as Joseph Smith got in his own patriarchal blessing.

Just look at some of the many revelations through Joseph Smith about how imminent Christ's coming was supposed to be:
23 And again, it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water, ye shall lay your hands, and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and shall be looking forth for the signs of my coming, and shall know me.
Behold, I come quickly. Even so. Amen.

27 Fear not, little flock, the kingdom is yours until I come. Behold, I come quickly. Even so. Amen.

6 To lift up your voice as with the sound of a trump, both long and loud, and cry repentance unto a crooked and perverse generation, preparing the way of the Lord for his second coming.

7 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, the time is soon at hand that I shall come in a cloud with power and great glory.


These types of scriptures are all throughout the D&C. My point is: There is no doubt that the early saints believed they'd see the 2nd Coming - it was in their patriarchal blessings, it came in revelations through the anointed prophet, and they were witnessing signs with having wars and being persecuted, etc.
And yet...it didn't happen. Does anyone doubt Joseph Smith's revelations? People say the "Julie Rowes" are false prophets because obviously her prophecies haven't come to pass - but these ones haven't for Joseph Smith, either. How can you say Julie Rowe is false but then not say the same thing for Joseph Smith and all the patriarchal blessings given through his dad and Hyrum and others?

Have you considered that your wife really is getting "revelation", the same type of "revelation" as our pioneer saints? You believe your wife is wrong and it turns out that Joseph Smith and the patriarchs of his time were "wrong", too. So imo, the question to ask isn't "How do I convince my wife that the church is right and the Julie Rowes are wrong?" A more productive question would be "Why have members been getting authentic revelation, including Joseph Smith and early patriarchs, that all warn about being alive during the 2nd Coming and then don't come true?"

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

[brlenox]

Wed May 03, 2017 6:51 am
One more question, someone in one of their responses indicated there might be some mental illness involved but I did not remember getting that exact sense from your OP. Can you elaborate just enough to confirm. I'm not looking for any details but just a sense of degree or type of illness that is being observed and as well how long and what other manifestations you have observed.

No worries. I am happy to help provide some context. Please understand as I carefully share. My wife has often struggled with organization, but in the fall of 2014, our baby girl was born and things have taken a dramatic turn since then. With the birth of our little girl, she states that she had a sense of urgency and begged the Lord to just let her sleep and then she would try to figure out the urgency.
Around Christmas of that same year, she happened upon Roger K Young's book and saw it as a sign of what she should be looking into, then she read the First Presidency message of Sept. 2014 and decided that it was all connected. In late Jan. 2015, I came home from work, to find her vacuum packing winter clothing, in preparation for the call out. To be honest, I had noticed strange behavior before this, but just chalked it up to some of her sometimes odd behavior in conjunction to being a new mom.
We dealt with months of figuring out counselors and doctors. In May 2015 she was diagnosed schizophrenic by a psychiatrist that saw her two times. To this day, I am not certain that the diagnosis is 100%, but that is the only formal work that has been done. I can say that there are aspects of her actions that are symptomatic of schizophrenia, understanding that it is a spectrum disorder and hard to nail down.
She has seen several counselors, a couple of bishops, even had our stake president show up on our doorstep one evening. The story usually ends up repeating itself every time, with every person. She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does. They try to counsel with her and it ultimately results in her not listening to a word they have to say because she has decided that it is pointless to try and help them understand why they have to have 1+ years of food storage and winter camping gear by the end of the day.
She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of.

Very helpful information:
First, I am going to be bold what I am posting is not me sharing opinion but sharing experiential knowledge concerning what you are addressing, of course based on my correct understanding of what you have described. The biggest clues you provide are:

"She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does."and "She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of."

To provide sustainment of where this fits I provide the following quote:

Every properly constituted person can feel the influence of the various spirits that are in the world and that seek to bring us in subjection to them. To some it is given to see these influences, but all can feel them . . . . You will see a man all at once seized with a spirit of anger; another time you will see a person seized with a spirit of jealousy or some other evil influence infuriated sometimes, so much so that he or she is transformed. You have seen people’s faces completely changed by the spirit that takes possession of them. They cannot see that power; but it is undoubtedly a spiritual entity. We may not be conscious of it, but it takes possession of us if we yield to it. (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, pg 16.)

Your wife has been seized by some element of fear that is beyond the boundaries. It manifests itself in terms that you describe as “frantic” with the exhibition of behaviors beyond the limits of common sense. That is a very specific behavioral description and I hope I am sensing what you are communicating correctly.

Several posters have admonished you to be considerate of the Sosa’s, and the Julie Rowes, even Iohani Wolfgramm who was a wonderful man but his material has been corrupted and disseminated in a public fashion that was never his intent. I encourage you to dismiss any sympathies towards these materials and find your own sense of the source of it. It is not of God and its impact on your family has not been uplifting. It’s a by the fruits situation and it should be clear enough. You need to know that as you move forward as there must be confidence in your direction. If you lack that success is compromised. People who admonish such generally have forsaken the protective processes that the Lord provides in terms of Leaders he has chosen and perhaps even worse for their own safety have no clue as to how to recognize the things of the spirit let alone how to try the spirits to know good from evil.

There are generally at least two components that can create illness in the body. 2 Nephi 2:29 gives a partial clue:

2 Nephi 2:29
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

Method number one is that Satan has restricted to access to mankind through venues that are specific to conditions of the flesh that “giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate”. He captivates us, or gets power over us on the principles of the flesh. This is what enables him to exploit our physical tabernacles to try us in ways that require us to learn to curb our appetites and such so that, for those that succeed, our spirit reigns over the evil nature of the flesh. So most of the time we have people default claiming that if you are bad then that gives Satan an opportunity to take over. Sure that is correct but there is a principle here that needs further consideration. The venues of the flesh are possessed of several inroads and simply being in a state of weakness physically can potentially allow Satan to exploit various conditions of the flesh and give him additional opportunity to create disharmony.

You mention that this started after your wife had a child. I can’t imagine many things that have such a profound effect on woman’s body as the processes of gestation. The tendency is that conditions of health that were near thresh hold levels before but that she was staying just above so that they were not discerned will manifest after her body has been severely taxed by pregnancy.

In many females the next year after birth is a process of the body putting things back in balance and so we notice that common post-delivery symptoms of depression and anxiety and inability to deal with stress will subside over time as nutritional reserves are repaired and natural capacities are restored. Generally this can take at least a year. During these times of natural complications of the depression and anxiety from a taxed system you can be guaranteed that Satan is present exploiting the weakened condition to get as much mileage as he can out of the weakened condition of the flesh to cause as much torment as he can manage. A lot of people make it through on their own. However, sometimes that does not take place and through a combination of circumstances Satan may get a greater hold in some than in others.

To summarize you have two issues that you must consider:

Issue number 1. While I am convinced that a priesthood blessing can fix everything, there is great blessing in understanding all of the angles. Also, I am not taking about a blessing for health I’m talking about casting him out of your home for an interim to provide an opportunity for evaluation and to take some of the pressure off of your wife. It took me a while to realize, that while individuals may invite Satan back into their lives, I do not have to authorize his presence in my home. It is my home and frankly as the presiding priesthood holders we are “kings” in our castle and upon righteous principles can receive or banish. I can require his departure at any time, contingent upon my worthiness. However sometimes we have to evaluate carefully times when we should hold off on exercising our priesthood as the individuals involved may benefit from the overcoming of his efforts. Yet there can come times where they are at a disadvantage and are overpowered and may need some help from a wise priesthood holder.

If Satan were cast out we might find that his presence is simply compromising her recovery and that at his departure she could heal naturally

For instance it is possible that if I am surmising correctly, and again I am simply applying knowledge that I have gained over the years to your case, but if you had another child in the future you would be better prepared to address her needs so as to limit a second reoccurrence that might give Satan greater influence similar to this event.

For the moment though, Satan is taking advantage of your wife, however, he is doing it to spite your priesthood.

This is like the temple scenario. When Satan first approaches Adam about partaking of the fruit, Adam firmly states I will not partake. Satan’s response, “We shall see” and then he heads off to find an alternative way to get at Adam. So he wins the war of words with Eve and then Eve becomes the tool that Satan can use to get to Adam. Of course this is a principle that can be greatly expanded. I learned this principle many years ago during a temple session. After, over time, I became very adept at watching Satan go through my home and try to rile someone up to interfere with me. Sometimes it would be my wife, if my wife was not going to play then he would find one of the children and so on. Sometimes, he would rile up one of the children to get to my wife and then it would interfere with me. Realizing how the game was played was very helpful for me. Nonetheless, this is one of his most common means of going after the priesthood holder to keep him off balance. Because the only one in the home he really fears is you and as long as you never figure out that you have authority over him and can require his departure he just has a blast seeking to undermine one more priesthood holder.

Issue Number 2. I ran into some research a couple of months back on neuro-transmitter issues that are common to schizophrenia. One of the most consistent findings is the diminished levels of gamma-amino-butyric acid (GABA) found in the brain in upward of potentially 80% of schizophrenic patients.

http://www.schizophrenic.com/articles/s ... zophrenia

This following link is a very good general information site that was pivotal in me helping one of my family members who was suffering as is your wife.

http://www.needs.com/product/NDNL-0712-01/htc_GABA

Because the situation was important, I cast Satan out of my home and from this person privately, which took the Satan sponsored impetus to destroy out of the situation and then I found that the SAMe description on the website seemed to fit what was the uninfluenced by Satan state. After just a couple of days the mood began to lighten and this person was back to a normal conquer the world self.

Were I you, I would read 20 or thirty studies on Orthomolecular medicine studies as it relates to the GABA – dopamine links to schizophrenic conditions. I have to study a ton of material sometimes to find the one or two pearls that give me the proper understanding to determine my options.

I hope this is helpful and I have more I was going to write but I am out of time for a couple of hours. I haven’t had time to go back through this so if there are any errors I will have to catch them later.

Do pray, do fast, do seek out the Lord in these matters. Seek to be filled with love for your wife as you advance in your direction and be decisive in dealing with Satan. Not condemning, but decisive.

I leave for the moment with the following quote:

Now, fathers, I would remind you of the sacred nature of your calling. You have the power of the priesthood directly from the Lord to protect your home. There will be times when all that stands as a shield between your family and the adversary’s mischief will be that power. You will receive direction from the Lord by way of the gift of the Holy Ghost.( The Power of the Priesthood, Boyd K. Packer, April 2010)

[Chris]

Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

You are wise to be cautious! I think the sad thing is it is a mix of true and false. Julie Rowe the most common and well known is clearly a false prophet and is just lying and is an imposter seeking mainly fame but also money. I think she is in it for the high and has some serious mental illness. She also is the one who claims the most the requirements to be in a tent city. ..... I think Hector, Sarah and some others fall into that same territory. Now I do think there are some legit ones. I think Visions of Glory ( Spencer) is legit. I think David Warwick is legit....... But the devil always has duplicates of truth to confuse , distract and pollute pure true doctrine.....

[lone-knight]

Lone knight, I would also add to the conversation that many who believe in these dreams and NDE are also involved in energy healing. I would caution your wife about getting involved with this. Julie Rowe was an energy healer and I believe many of her manifestations were given because of her involvement in occult methods of muscle testing and speaking to spirits. In my experience I have seen many who are involved with energy healing actually become more psychotic, not less.
Also to address her strange behavior, it is very typical of those who have bought into the tent city philosophy. My dear friend cashed in her husbands 401k because the "spirit" told her to buy 2 years worth of food storage. She also told me that her teenage son would never go on a mission because they would all be in tent cities in the mountains. These dreams and predictions bring about hysteria and radical behavior. The gospel of Jesus Christ is completely the opposite. It is calm and full of hope. A call out to tent cities is not going to happen in my opinion.

I appreciate the comment. Some of the things that happened in my family include the efforts to withdraw the 401k, for food storage and winter camping gear. My wife has also dropped that our son will never serve because we are going to be living ina tent. I am familiar with the mindset.

[lone-knight]

Have you considered that your wife really is getting "revelation", the same type of "revelation" as our pioneer saints? You believe your wife is wrong and it turns out that Joseph Smith and the patriarchs of his time were "wrong", too. So imo, the question to ask isn't "How do I convince my wife that the church is right and the Julie Rowes are wrong?" A more productive question would be "Why have members been getting authentic revelation, including Joseph Smith and early patriarchs, that all warn about being alive during the 2nd Coming and then don't come true?"

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

I have considered these thoughts. Thank you for the input. I don't know the answers on the patriarchal blessings that you mention and I am ok with saying that. It is possible that we misunderstand and there is more to things than we had assumed. As far as trying to convince my wife of anything - that is an impossible task. I am grateful for your thoughts. I would say that I have spent much time in prayer, pondering and fasting. Ultimately, I Don't feel that the fruits born out from these published dreams - seem to not be pertinent to my family. At least, that is what I feel.

[lone-knight]

I leave for the moment with the following quote:

Now, fathers, I would remind you of the sacred nature of your calling. You have the power of the priesthood directly from the Lord to protect your home. There will be times when all that stands as a shield between your family and the adversary’s mischief will be that power. You will receive direction from the Lord by way of the gift of the Holy Ghost.( The Power of the Priesthood, Boyd K. Packer, April 2010)

Holy cow - I have some homework ahead of me. Gonna take a little bit of time to digest this. Thank you.

[lone-knight]

You are wise to be cautious! I think the sad thing is it is a mix of true and false. Julie Rowe the most common and well known is clearly a false prophet and is just lying and is an imposter seeking mainly fame but also money. I think she is in it for the high and has some serious mental illness. She also is the one who claims the most the requirements to be in a tent city. ..... I think Hector, Sarah and some others fall into that same territory. Now I do think there are some legit ones. I think Visions of Glory ( Spencer) is legit. I think David Warwick is legit....... But the devil always has duplicates of truth to confuse , distract and pollute pure true doctrine.....

Thank you - I am trying to do what is right for my family. Funny that you should mention Visions of Glory because I lump that right in with the rest. As for David Warwick - I don't know that name, so I can't comment. After the last two years, I am wary of any of these sorts of NDE types of things. Especially when it is a publication that seems to be aimed at stirring people up with sensational stories and for the purposes of turning a buck.
While this might not be fair to all such accounts - I have just simply been burned too many times.

[brlenox]

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

The church allows family members to access copies of their ancestor's patriarchal blessings. Some of these are made available to view online as well. Here's the link to Joseph Smith's patriarchal blessing, given to him by his father http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1834/2

Part of it says: "Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer Come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen"

There is even a book made up of patriarchal blessings from the early days of the church
https://www.amazon.com/Patriarchal-Bles ... +blessings

In the synopsis it says: "Contained in this volume are 755 blessings from 1833 through 1845 delivered by the church's first oracles, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, and William Smith. Prominent in these blessings is the promise that the reciepeints will live to witness the Second Coming, together with other period-specific expectations and doctrinally based beliefs. "

Why do I bring this up?
Your wife believes she has received revelation and she is acting on it. This is exactly what we are taught to do in church. She has received the same kind of revelation that prophets, patriarchs, and other worthy priesthood holders have been receiving since the church's inception, which is: you're going to be alive during the 2nd Coming so be prepared.

If you are going to understand why your wife's revelation is "wrong", then you should probably start with understanding why so many patriarchal blessings since pioneer days have been "wrong", too. It is entirely possible that the whole dreamer crowd is getting the same type of "revelation" as Joseph Smith got in his own patriarchal blessing.

.....

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

Butterfly - Well it looks like I may have to qualify this perspective a bit as you have jumped in without being fully informed. If you are going to do so much to undermine faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to question prophets and to propagate the kind of doubt that your posts often do then corrective efforts will be necessary. I so earnestly recommend that you give the prophets a second chance. They very often can provide insight so that you can see there is a plan in place and if you continue to make decisions without their guidance you will continue to be wrong. I hope you will be so kind as to consider this quote by Wilford Woodruff. Where in your pondering and in the writing of your post here you could not understand how Joseph could be on the earth when it was a rockin and a rollin, Wilford very kindly provides the insight that may have escaped your attention. I hope you will linger on these prophetic words long enough to reconsider your stance:

Who will resurrect Joseph’s Body? It will be Peter, James, John, Moroni, or someone who has or will receive the keys of the resurrection. It will probably be one of those who hold the keys of this dispensation and has delivered them to Joseph and you will see Jesus and he will eat peaches and apples with you. But the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase. Joseph and Jesus will be there. They will walk and talk with them at times and no man mistrusts who they are. Joseph will lead the Armies of Israel whether he is seen or no, whether visible or invisible as seemeth him good.

Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carlos, and when that is done then He will say, “now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected.

After Joseph comes to us in his resurrected body, He will more fully instruct us concerning the baptism for the dead and the sealing ordinances. He will say, be baptized for this man and that man and that man be sealed to that such a man to such a man, and connect the Priesthood together. I tell you there will not be much of this done until Joseph comes… (Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for the World’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff,pp.168-169. See also Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews, chapter 44, The Doctrine of the Resurrection, p. 505-525

Carefully parsed the underlined sections speak to the fact that Joseph will actually be resurrected before the end of times, in fact it could already of happened. Place this thought against all of your Patriarchal blessings and it is perfectly evident that there will be many who will assist and will have been resurrected - all prior to the end. It is evident that this all takes place before the end as the discussion of "the wicked will know nothing of it" and "the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase" is clearly pointing to a period of time prior to the second coming. ... and that's what prophets do for us, they take that which we cannot perceive and give us clarity. I hope you will see the value of this prophets words.

[brlenox]

I leave for the moment with the following quote:

Now, fathers, I would remind you of the sacred nature of your calling. You have the power of the priesthood directly from the Lord to protect your home. There will be times when all that stands as a shield between your family and the adversary’s mischief will be that power. You will receive direction from the Lord by way of the gift of the Holy Ghost.( The Power of the Priesthood, Boyd K. Packer, April 2010)

Holy cow - I have some homework ahead of me. Gonna take a little bit of time to digest this. Thank you.

Yes...that is the perfect answer. I have collected much material on this particular subject and if you feel any questions feel free to ask and I will provide material from the general authorities for you to ponder as you seek to go forward and get guidance from the Lord.

[LatterDayLizard]

One thing strikes me as odd, though - lds pioneers were getting told in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's 2nd Coming in the flesh. Obviously that didn't happen. Were their blessings wrong? Throughout the scriptures we read things like "behold, I come quickly" or "the time is near, even at the gates", etc. The early saints totally believed that the 2nd Coming was "any day now." So what happened? Why are we still getting the same revelation as they did? There's an elderly brother in my ward who says that his patriarchal blessing says the same thing- he's going to be here for the 2nd Coming. It seems like the members of the church have been waiting, warning, and preparing for the 2nd Coming ever since the Restoration up until now, and all because of revelation telling them this. So I think there's something we're not understanding.

A couple of years ago I was praying to know if I would be alive on the earth, in my mortal body, when the 2nd Coming happened. I was told yes, I would be alive for the 2nd Coming BUT that I was not understanding what the 2nd Coming actually was. My expectation of disaster, upheaval, war, etc and then Christ coming down while the wicked are burned is not it.

So later a friend commented to me that his understanding of the 2nd Coming was when people, on an individual basis, receive Christ in the flesh, meaning the 2nd Comforter.

Is it possible that all the upheaval, disaster, tent cities, etc is symbolic and not literal? And that the Christ coming again to the earth happens for the righteous one by one? It could explain why pioneer saints were told they'd be alive for the 2nd coming - maybe it was a promised blessing of receiving the 2nd Comforter, which is why it's still being promised in blessings today.

It would also mean that all the wickedness and darkness that we confront in our lives is the time of tribulation and testing that occurs before one is prepared to receive Christ. Standing in holy places, fleeing to Zion, tent cities in the mountains - all of these things could be symbolic of the spiritual battle going on, not the physical one.

I've wondered too about the reason the Lord says again and again that he is coming quickly, that his coming is near at hand, etc. And I think it is because he really does want us to all be looking, watching, waiting, anticipating his return. It is a sign that we love him and look forward to his reign on the earth. Even his first apostles, from some of their words I get the impression that they too thought his second coming was near and they were anticipating that day. Joseph and the early prophets, same thing. And again my conclusion has been, that he would rather us be focused on his coming and preparing spiritually and temporally, rather than focusing on worldly pursuits and have the mindset that there is little chance of seeing him anytime soon. While I agree that the most important "coming" will be to you personally in that sense of sealing you to him, I do believe in a literal coming to the earth as the scriptures describe.

I understand what you mean, but that almost sounds like He's being...idk- deceitful. Should He tell people He's coming really soon if He's really not? Even if it's to get them to be more watchful and focused on Him, does that mean it's okay for Him to repeatedly tell people in their patriarchal blessings that they'll be alive for the 2nd Coming and then they end up dying?
I know a lot of people say "Well, maybe they'll be there for the 2nd Coming in a resurrected body, so that would still count" or "timing is relative; when He says "soon", He really means in Celestial time so it's more like a few hundred years." Neither of those explanations seem very strong to me.

Since the pioneer times people have been told to prepare for the 2nd Coming and then it doesn't happen. I think we really have to consider that we may not understand what the 2nd Coming is. I did a search before and if I remember correctly, I couldn't find any scriptures that say that Jesus will come again. They all said something like "the Son of Man" or "Christ", but not "Jesus of Nazareth". (I might be wrong). But "Son of Man" and "Christ" are titles that can be used for Jesus but also for anyone else who becomes a "christ" or a "son of man."

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

[DesertWonderer]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

[Sarah]

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

The church allows family members to access copies of their ancestor's patriarchal blessings. Some of these are made available to view online as well. Here's the link to Joseph Smith's patriarchal blessing, given to him by his father http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1834/2

Part of it says: "Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer Come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen"

There is even a book made up of patriarchal blessings from the early days of the church
https://www.amazon.com/Patriarchal-Bles ... +blessings

In the synopsis it says: "Contained in this volume are 755 blessings from 1833 through 1845 delivered by the church's first oracles, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, and William Smith. Prominent in these blessings is the promise that the reciepeints will live to witness the Second Coming, together with other period-specific expectations and doctrinally based beliefs. "

Why do I bring this up?
Your wife believes she has received revelation and she is acting on it. This is exactly what we are taught to do in church. She has received the same kind of revelation that prophets, patriarchs, and other worthy priesthood holders have been receiving since the church's inception, which is: you're going to be alive during the 2nd Coming so be prepared.

If you are going to understand why your wife's revelation is "wrong", then you should probably start with understanding why so many patriarchal blessings since pioneer days have been "wrong", too. It is entirely possible that the whole dreamer crowd is getting the same type of "revelation" as Joseph Smith got in his own patriarchal blessing.

.....

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

Butterfly - Well it looks like I may have to qualify this perspective a bit as you have jumped in without being fully informed. If you are going to do so much to undermine faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to question prophets and to propagate the kind of doubt that your posts often do then corrective efforts will be necessary. I so earnestly recommend that you give the prophets a second chance. They very often can provide insight so that you can see there is a plan in place and if you continue to make decisions without their guidance you will continue to be wrong. I hope you will be so kind as to consider this quote by Wilford Woodruff. Where in your pondering and in the writing of your post here you could not understand how Joseph could be on the earth when it was a rockin and a rollin, Wilford very kindly provides the insight that may have escaped your attention. I hope you will linger on these prophetic words long enough to reconsider your stance:

Who will resurrect Joseph’s Body? It will be Peter, James, John, Moroni, or someone who has or will receive the keys of the resurrection. It will probably be one of those who hold the keys of this dispensation and has delivered them to Joseph and you will see Jesus and he will eat peaches and apples with you. But the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase. Joseph and Jesus will be there. They will walk and talk with them at times and no man mistrusts who they are. Joseph will lead the Armies of Israel whether he is seen or no, whether visible or invisible as seemeth him good.

Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carlos, and when that is done then He will say, “now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected.

After Joseph comes to us in his resurrected body, He will more fully instruct us concerning the baptism for the dead and the sealing ordinances. He will say, be baptized for this man and that man and that man be sealed to that such a man to such a man, and connect the Priesthood together. I tell you there will not be much of this done until Joseph comes… (Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for the World’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff,pp.168-169. See also Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews, chapter 44, The Doctrine of the Resurrection, p. 505-525

Carefully parsed the underlined sections speak to the fact that Joseph will actually be resurrected before the end of times, in fact it could already of happened. Place this thought against all of your Patriarchal blessings and it is perfectly evident that there will be many who will assist and will have been resurrected - all prior to the end. It is evident that this all takes place before the end as the discussion of "the wicked will know nothing of it" and "the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase" is clearly pointing to a period of time prior to the second coming. ... and that's what prophets do for us, they take that which we cannot perceive and give us clarity. I hope you will see the value of this prophets words.

Wow, I've never seen that quote before. Thanks for that find. Now a certain revelation makes much more sense.

[FTC]

The problem is that mormon lives are dull, boring, and listless. You have kids that complain about being bored constantly and just want to disappear into their electronics, and spouses that nag you to no end about stuff that you can't stand. Things break, and you keep having to fix them. You wake up, go to work at a job that the highlight of the day is the going home part, so that you can eat the same meh food, go to sleep, then start it all over again. And you can't do much more than church callings or else the calamities of the 2nd coming happen on a weekly basis from the nagging spouse. The vast majority of movies, books, and entertainment are FICTION because real life events are BORING. Its no wonder mormons conjure up grandoise fantasies of National Lampoon's road warrior heroics to try and get at least a drop or two of something invigorating in their lives.

[BackBlast]

No worries. I am happy to help provide some context. Please understand as I carefully share. My wife has often struggled with organization, but in the fall of 2014, our baby girl was born and things have taken a dramatic turn since then. With the birth of our little girl, she states that she had a sense of urgency and begged the Lord to just let her sleep and then she would try to figure out the urgency.

After our 7th child, my wife had a severe case of postpartum psychosis. A state that I would liken to an animal who kills it's own young, only on a being who can reason and restrain herself. It can be very difficult to weather the urges that come. Violent or fearful, and they boil up in an individual like one feels the need to urinate. Delusions are common, especially religious delusions.

I'm not implying yours is identical, but there may be some common threads.

Around Christmas of that same year, she happened upon Roger K Young's book and saw it as a sign of what she should be looking into, then she read the First Presidency message of Sept. 2014 and decided that it was all connected. In late Jan. 2015, I came home from work, to find her vacuum packing winter clothing, in preparation for the call out. To be honest, I had noticed strange behavior before this, but just chalked it up to some of her sometimes odd behavior in conjunction to being a new mom.

I believe that this material (RKY, Julie Rowe, Soza, etc) may be related, but it is not the primary cause. While she has made this a primary issue, I'm going to leave the correctness or lack thereof of the experiences and narrative aside. Their correctness isn't really the issue.

We dealt with months of figuring out counselors and doctors. In May 2015 she was diagnosed schizophrenic by a psychiatrist that saw her two times. To this day, I am not certain that the diagnosis is 100%, but that is the only formal work that has been done. I can say that there are aspects of her actions that are symptomatic of schizophrenia, understanding that it is a spectrum disorder and hard to nail down.

It looks like you've dipped your toes in with the doctors. My wife spent a good deal of time in the care of doctors, including being institutionalized. This was, by a large margin, the worst experience of my life (and hers for that matter). I don't think there are very many scarier places on earth for a woman than a mental institution. Do a little bit of research if you wish to know more.

I do not wish to dwell on the details of my ordeal, but I do wish to share a little bit to show you that I have been through a somewhat similar situation and I can speak somewhat from experience. Not that I know everything or that I know exactly how to fix everything, you will have your own path through this and must figure a good deal out for yourself.

My first advice is that you do not trust doctors or the medical community to give you long term answers. They are a temporary resource only. Like, "my wife will kill herself if she doesn't get relief so she needs to be under observation for a few days until this passes" temporary. I would avoid all medications, long term treatments, and consider "diagnosis-es" as essentially useless. Many of the medications used do influence your spiritual receptors and the influences (both good and evil) can get louder or quieter, but your body and spirit will automatically begin to compensate, thus, it's a roller coaster that difficult to get off of. In my experience the medical community also doesn't really comprehend what it is, in fact, doing when attempting to mess around chemically with spiritually influences.

As a caution, once interned, you are under the control of others and lose essentially lose a large measure of free will. This has a deep and dramatic negative impact on a person and IMHO requires Christ's healing to fully overcome. Use with extreme caution.

She has seen several counselors, a couple of bishops, even had our stake president show up on our doorstep one evening. The story usually ends up repeating itself every time, with every person. She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does. They try to counsel with her and it ultimately results in her not listening to a word they have to say because she has decided that it is pointless to try and help them understand why they have to have 1+ years of food storage and winter camping gear by the end of the day.
She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of.

My experience is that these kinds of reaching out are what she thinks as her only avenues of addressing her fear. Occasionally acting out deliberately is also an attention getting tactic. In a way, it is also a plea for help. As you are her companion, these messages are most likely directed at you if done overtly or not. She likely feels that you don't understand her, or understand her very poorly. She feels unsupported. These feelings likely have a kernel of truth to them, though they are augmented and made into mountains by the evil influences.

My advice here... You need to do what you can to heal the breaches. These are the cracks being leveraged to gain influence over her.

If you have any impediments to her feeling your love. You watch TV too much, surf the internet, games, don't spend enough time with the kids, neglect the honey-do list, etc etc. Think back to old fights or criticisms that she has mentioned in the past. Fix them. Fix them all. Don't draw attention to it and don't make excuses, just do it, even if it is totally unfair. Give up every little bit of selfishness you have left in you. Put it all on the altar for her, and talk about your sacrifices on her behalf with the Father and not her.

Beyond your day to day actions I advice to be clear, deliberate, and completely unambiguous with how you will help her with her fears, and where the limits are. She wants one year+ of food storage. If you don't have that already, make it a goal, make it a priority. Provide a budget and help her do it. State clearly that we will move prudently in this direction, moving quickly but not running faster than we have strength. Extra winter clothes and camping supplies are perhaps a bit harder. You could compromise and say, you know, we really should go camping as a family more. She can practice primitive cooking, or perhaps some other avenue that interests her, The kids get some outdoor time, throw in a thing you two you would like, and we can do it as a family. It can be fun based, not fear based. Show her clearly that you love her, support her, and will help her in these prudent goals that addresses her fears. But also tell her that we need to understand our own familial path. Not the path of dreamer X, Y, or Z. If the Lord has special instructions for us, let us be worthy of them, to pray for them. That will be of greater worth for us than anything found out there on the wide internet or books from various authors. And He WILL tell you. We are told to be not troubled. When the conduit of revelation is clear and exercised, fear will then be replaced with confidence, that the Lord is mindful of us, personally, our situation, our needs, our wants and our desires.

Then, when she turns to you, and she sees the effort and sacrifice, the selfless love you have gifted to her, it will be SLOW, but likely, it will happen. She will treasure you and give you such trust and love that you probably can't even visualize it at this moment and your relationship will transcend all you have known to date. At least, that was my experience.

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

[AI2.0]

Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

I'm glad you started this thread, I think it allows for useful discussion.

You said that you'd love a doctrine based discussion so I'll try to stick to that. The Doctrine is not 'end times' or 'last days', it is Revelation and who receives revelation for the entire church membership. Whenever this discussion comes up there are many quotes that are brought out, visions which are attributed to Prophets and also the sincerity of those sharing these visions. It's hard to imagine that other members of the church might be lying about their experiences for various reasons.

First and most important. Only the LIVING Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may receive revelation for the entire church membership. Julie Rowe has crossed that line quite a few times in her pronouncements--which is one reason why she's criticized. She tried to claim that she was called to teach these things to the world (it was in one of her recent radio interviews) and that's why it was 'okay' for her to usurp the prerogative of Pres. Monson. But LDS don't believe there is any other living prophet who can speak to the world besides Pres. Monson. It is Pres. Monson's divine calling to preach to the world and receive revelation for the world. That's why 'authority' is so important. If it was not, then we would not know who to listen to.
Can others be prophets? Yes, they can and that is what we all should be striving for in our own lives. If we are living right and enjoying the gifts of the Holy Ghost in our life, then we can receive revelation for ourselves and those we hold stewardship over. Here's the problem for you. You and your wife hold stewardship over your family. You AND your wife can receive revelation for how to spend your resources and how to prepare for the future. You as the priesthood holder, preside in your home, but your wife should be your equal partner. In your particular situation, that may be a problem, if she does suffer from mental illness--this can mean her ability to make wise decisions and discern, may be limited or impaired.
Despite this mental issue, you should sincerely consider if you believe your wife to be able to feel the spirit and to be able to help make correct decisions for your family together. I think you might want to pray for guidance from the spirit to help you understand your wife and what things you might learn from her. I think if you turn to Heavenly Father for help and submit to his will--not to your own understanding, that will help you to be able to support your wife in the things that you can and help lessen the tension in the home. He loves your wife, she is his cherished daughter and he wants you both to have joy in your union. That can be hard to believe, but I know it's true. We all have trials and weaknesses but with the help of our Heavenly Father, and a strong love and commitment to each other, we can get through even the hardest trials that have been given to us.

The church, through our Prophet, has given us some guidelines on what to do to prepare for hard times--you can go to the church's website--we are encouraged to store food and other items, but we are also told to get out of debt and set aside money in an emergency fund. We are to learn to be self-reliant also. These are things that you can emphasize with your wife that you as a family can work on. The spirit will whisper to YOU and to your wife if there is more that your family may need to do to prepare.

You can always point out that these people she's reading and believing have never been right yet, but IMO, that doesn't work--it usually only makes them defensive and they will feel that you are minimizing and ignoring the dangers all around us--that's doesn't help her feel 'safe' with you as the head of the family and you want her to feel that you DO care about the well-being of your family and will do everything you can to keep them safe. Better to point out that we must be careful of who we listen to--so that we are not misled. God has given us a most incredible blessing! A living Prophet. All can listen to his words and be warned and blessed through heeding them. We need to listen to the Lord's living prophet. You can tell your wife that when the living Prophet warns us we will listen and heed his counsel--and that isn't just for temporal protection--but you as a family need to listen to his warnings for spiritual protection as well. If you lead your family in righteousness and love, doing the things that are important--leading in having daily scripture reading, daily family prayers and prayers each night with your wife, and you work on improving your own spirituality, that will make a difference. Also, as Brlenox suggested, Priesthood blessings can help to cast out false and lying spirits which may be present and they can bring peace and clarity to a troubled mind.

You've gotten professional help for your wife and that's very important. Modern medicine can bring what would only be seen as miracle treatments, a lot can be done now that was not available in the past. I would not listen to those who try to discourage you from listening to competent Doctors and therapists who you've prayed about and who you feel good about. If they suggest treatments, pray about them with your wife and the answers will come as you turn to Father for guidance and then trust him that he's knows what is best.

I hope this helps. I think you've been given some very good advice but you alone know your situation intimately-- and the very best one to go to for guidance is your Heavenly Father because he knows all and sees all.

[butterfly]

Have you considered that your wife really is getting "revelation", the same type of "revelation" as our pioneer saints? You believe your wife is wrong and it turns out that Joseph Smith and the patriarchs of his time were "wrong", too. So imo, the question to ask isn't "How do I convince my wife that the church is right and the Julie Rowes are wrong?" A more productive question would be "Why have members been getting authentic revelation, including Joseph Smith and early patriarchs, that all warn about being alive during the 2nd Coming and then don't come true?"

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

I have considered these thoughts. Thank you for the input. I don't know the answers on the patriarchal blessings that you mention and I am ok with saying that. It is possible that we misunderstand and there is more to things than we had assumed. As far as trying to convince my wife of anything - that is an impossible task. I am grateful for your thoughts. I would say that I have spent much time in prayer, pondering and fasting. Ultimately, I Don't feel that the fruits born out from these published dreams - seem to not be pertinent to my family. At least, that is what I feel.

A friend mentioned to me that my post seemed a bit confusing, so I just wanted to clarify. I have not found much that has been helpful to me personally from Julie Rowe or Sosa. I prayed about them and was basically told that her message wasn't for me to focus on. I also did not intend to convey that Joseph Smith or the early patriarchs didn't know how to receive revelation. What I was trying to say is that, if we take Joseph Smith's revelations literally, then it would appear that they are wrong. Just like if your wife takes her revelations literally, then it appears that she is wrong.

But if she feels understood that she truly believes she is receiving revelation, then just like we can see that Joseph Smith's revelations have a different interpretation, then maybe she likewise can accept a different interpretation to her own revelation.

This is why I brought up the patriarchal blessings. Obviously we don't understand everything in a patriarchal blessing so we should allow for new insights to what they mean. If people totally discount what your wife says, then it makes her close her ears to them because they don't believe her. But if people say "Hey, Joseph Smith got that same type of revelation about the end times and it had a completely different meaning, so maybe your revelation has a completely different meaning, too", then maybe that would allow her to feel understood while at the same time open to a different interpretation.

(However, as many have pointed out, the mental state can really be affected following pregnancy, so what I've shared may not apply at all. I just wanted to clarify what I meant).

[DesertWonderer]

Article of Faith #5

"We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."

If a person believes that this is scripture, from a modern day prophet, then you can know w/o a doubt that JR is a false prophet. She fails the test set forth by this article of faith.

[Z2100]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

Seriously?! That guy is messed up!

[lone-knight]

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

I really appreciate your experience. I can say that when she is off the medication - she gets more manic. There are issues that we are working through and need to work through. Nonetheless, the illness doesn't help. I will say that she cycles through waiting for the 'Wasatch Wake Up' pretty much every other month. It has led to an inability for her to function in daily life. That makes things extra challenging.

[BackBlast]

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

I really appreciate your experience. I can say that when she is off the medication - she gets more manic. There are issues that we are working through and need to work through. Nonetheless, the illness doesn't help. I will say that she cycles through waiting for the 'Wasatch Wake Up' pretty much every other month. It has led to an inability for her to function in daily life. That makes things extra challenging.

I was effectively a single father of seven, with an additional needy dependent, for a time. It is very, very challenging. Again, I want to emphasize that I don't wish to tell you that my advice or paths through the challenges should be yours as well, they represent mine and you can take or leave as you feel you should. If you lean heavily on the Lord he can show you where to go and what to do. I did a lot of that because I had no idea what I should do most of the time. He had previously lined me up with an employer that would allow me the flexibility I needed to cope with the life event, and child care assistance that was suitable for my needs, protected my family from the DCFS reports that seemed to flow so readily, etc etc. As thy days may demand, so thy succor shall be.

[DesertWonderer]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

Seriously?! That guy is messed up!

Guess what materials he'd been reading? All the AVOW garbage!