Dreams and Dreamers

[RocknRoll]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

[lone-knight]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

[AI2.0]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

You are up against some serious issues. If it was me, I'd be fasting, praying and talking to trusted family members (can you go to those in her family for help also?) and counseling with my Bishop about this problem with your spouse. If you can't get her to acknowledge she's got emotional problems and get real mental health intervention, it could have far reaching ramifications for your children as well. I hate to think of breaking up families and marriages, it is the last resort, and I think everything should be done to try to save your marriage and family, but I think, with the help of those you trust to give righteous counsel and with the Lord's help in determining what is in the best interests of your children, you can make decisions which will be right and necessary.

I think that while you may love your wife more than life itself, if her problems are a threat to your children, you must do what you can to protect them. With the help of others, I think you can determine what needs to be done. Don't try to deal with this alone if you don't have to.

[Mcox]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

Lone knight, I'm so sorry you are struggling with this! Marriage is hard under the best of circumstances. Energy healers believe that they are translating their bodies in preparation for the second coming. They believe that they are so much more spiritual with all their new spiritual gifts, that they can start the translation process. This is also an effect of the book visions of glory, which is false doctrine. More and more Saints are going down this path. More and more are saying that they have seen Christ. I highly doubt these accounts. If you gave your wife an ultimatum, you or energy healing? Would she choose energy healing? If the bishop told her she could not hold a temple recommend if sh continued with energy healing, would she stop? I think you need to talk to your bishop about this?

[Older/wiser?]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

Lone-knight , the call out and now your wife investigating having her calling and election made sure are serious problems. Here's an observation, we make covenants with the Lord, we live in a day and age when the pressure is so great it is easy to decide when we have had enough and can take no more. Yet my experience dealing with some is you can take no more when the Lord tells you you are done, and He will tell you after you have suffered and walked a path much as the Savior did, His way His path. Covenants are not understood by our culture, the book of Mormon is full of examples of people making and breaking covenants. My favorite example of a people I love is given in Alma:24 The Anti-Nephi-Lehies kept their covenants even at the cost of there own lives. I found it interesting that there were those in battle that were told "covenant with us not to come against us and you may live," they stated that they knew they would break those covenants so they fought rather than break them. 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife , and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; please forgive my boldness, I am only advocating that you fight for what the Lord has given you, and though you weary, as walking the Saviors path is not an easy task, it is worth walking. Be sure that if you desolve this,it is when the Lord tells you your done not just because you tire. If you were the one out of the way you would want ever possible measure spent to save you. May you be blessed with the vision the Lord has for you.

[AI2.0]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

Lone knight, I'm so sorry you are struggling with this! Marriage is hard under the best of circumstances. Energy healers believe that they are translating their bodies in preparation for the second coming. They believe that they are so much more spiritual with all their new spiritual gifts, that they can start the translation process. This is also an effect of the book visions of glory, which is false doctrine. More and more Saints are going down this path. More and more are saying that they have seen Christ. I highly doubt these accounts. If you gave your wife an ultimatum, you or energy healing? Would she choose energy healing? If the bishop told her she could not hold a temple recommend if sh continued with energy healing, would she stop? I think you need to talk to your bishop about this?

Is she also involved with energy healing?
I know she is obsessed with a call out and having enough food storage and now, calling and election, but didn't know about Energy healing.



Lone knight, you say this has gone on for two years now....how old is your youngest child?

[lone-knight]

Is she also involved with energy healing?
I know she is obsessed with a call out and having enough food storage and now, calling and election, but didn't know about Energy healing.

Lone knight, you say this has gone on for two years now....how old is your youngest child?

She hasn't delved into the depths of energy healing, yet. She doesn't have anything against it, but has really investigated it. As for the youngest child, she is 2 1/2. All of this really flamed up badly a couple of months after the baby was born. My wife is absolutely convinced that she had a 'sense of urgency' that had nothing to do with the baby, shortly after delivery. Subsequently, she is 100% certain that her prayers on the meaning of the urgency were answered when she ran across Roger K. Young's book about dreams of the last days.

Those were some of the initiating events of the last 2+ years of misery. In fairness, we had struggles before, but this travail has become more than my shoulders are equipped to handle. I have turned to the Lord so much over the last couple of years and he has buoyed me up significantly! I am ever grateful. I taking a look at the future, I want to do what is best for my kids, even if it means separating from her. My covenants are a HUGE deal, to me, I just find myself not knowing where to turn.

[EmmaLee]

lone-knight, have you written your letter to one (or more) of the apostles yet about all this? If not, why not?

[lone-knight]

lone-knight, have you written your letter to one (or more) of the apostles yet about all this? If not, why not?

Honestly, I haven't - because I don't even know where to start.

[EmmaLee]

lone-knight, have you written your letter to one (or more) of the apostles yet about all this? If not, why not?

Honestly, I haven't - because I don't even know where to start.

Maybe you could simply copy some or all of what you've written here on the forum, and send it to the apostles. Nothing any of us say is going to help, in all honesty - we can't actually do anything for you or change your wife's mind. They, however, might be able to, if they see the extent and seriousness of what Julie Rowe, et al, are doing to your family (and others), and if your wife would possibly listen to them. If your wife wouldn't listen to them, then other than seeking professional psychological help, I'm not sure what anyone could do. Have you at least talked with your Bishop AND stake president about this?

Just address your letter to whichever apostle your gut tells you to -

President _______ _________
Office of the First Presidency
47 East South Temple Street
Salt Lake City, UT 84150

or -

Elder __________ _________
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City , UT 84150

[Z2100]

Wow. There's some serious crap hitting the fan in this thread...

[Sarah]

Lone-knight,

There are much more awful things your wife could announce to you than the fact that she wants to make her calling and election sure. Obviously she is dabbling in some spiritually dangerous territory, but like you said, your problems with her started before these latest obsessions. Rather than trying to justify your anger and desire to give up by blaming the things she has been influenced by, it would be better to focus on courting her and working on other aspects of your marriage.

Your marriage is probably not much different than most others - we all have times when we disagree and are annoyed with our partner. We are taken advantage of by them, and we must deal with their latest obsessions. This is normal. My husband spent over 15 years of our marriage obsessing about where he served his mission. All he wanted to do was go back there and relive everything. I tried to be supportive and I finally fully supported him going back while I stayed home for two weeks alone with our 5 young children and he spent thousands of dollars to get there and try to find all the people he had taught. Now that he has come back, the obsession is gone and boy am I glad that I was long-suffering and agreeable enough to let him go on this journey that helped him mature and progress in his life. The only justifiable reason for divorce is if your wife is breaking the law of chastity. Even if she were abusing your children, your best choice would be to separate and not divorce. These covenants are for eternity, and we can't let difficulty allow us to break that covenant.

The calling and election stuff is on every lds forums/discussion group out there. One only needs to look here on this forum to see the numerous threads dedicated to that topic. I would take this opportunity to learn the doctrine yourself and teach the truth to your family so they are not led astray by the counterfeits of Satan.

And I wouldn't send a letter to the First Presidency, as they are already aware of what your wife believes and the distress it is causing families who butt heads on this issue. What would you like them to say to persuade your wife? Perhaps that the prophet will never, ever invite any member to live on Church property? I don't see them ever saying something like that. All you can do is compromise and focus on your kids.

[brlenox]

Thanks for your well thought out answers to my questions. Interesting stuff. I still don’t necessarily believe any of it will work, but I guess with God, anything is possible, right?

This is how I feel too. I don't agree with the conclusions, but I do appreciate the discussion. To add to my story now, my wife has decided that it is time to also investigate having her calling and election made sure. I think that this can be closely associated with the 'call-out' culture of trying to make sure she is going to make it, no matter what.

Also, I am struggling with the direction (or lack thereof) of continued life with her. I am emotionally spent and can see the toll that all of this is taking on my kids. After 2+ years, I don't think I can do it any more.

I disagree entirely with writing letters to the Brethren. At this level Bishops (who may turn this back to Home Teachers, Elders Q/High Priests) and then Stake Presidents are your line of authority. If they recommend you take it higher then you have followed proper protocol.

The second issue is you are simply reading responses but are foundering in the miry miasma of indecision. OF all the people you can write, call, send smoke signals and so on YOU are the presiding person in your family. You are the one best capable of being guided by the spirit for both blessings and direction. If you deal with this properly you become more capable as a priesthood holder, you become stronger and more confident in the Lord. These experiences are provided so that priesthood holders can grow spiritually.

As well you have had two people provide answers that have actual experience with these kind of things, myself and backblast. You can spin in circles all day long and watch this thing continue to fall apart or you can at least make a decision and go forward. If you live in Utah anywhere from say Lehi north to Ogden or there bouts, we can meet and discuss possibilities. In several cases where I have worked with priesthood holders there is great reticence to recognize Satan is real and within your purview of responsibility. As well there is generally great temerity in actually doing something about it.

[Gage]

"Men's hearts shall fail them" This is speaking of your wife.
"For many will come in my name, .......", and her again.

[lone-knight]

Lone-knight,

There are much more awful things your wife could announce to you than the fact that she wants to make her calling and election sure. Obviously she is dabbling in some spiritually dangerous territory, but like you said, your problems with her started before these latest obsessions. Rather than trying to justify your anger and desire to give up by blaming the things she has been influenced by, it would be better to focus on courting her and working on other aspects of your marriage.

While I agree with the sentiment here and I feel the chastening, there is more to the story as well. When it comes to courting her, I have tried. The paths that it leads down are not good. Usually leads to more lies and manipulation. I do not blame the things that she has/is dabbling in. While true that I wish that the didn't exist, it is accurate to say that there would likely just be something else for her to attack me with.

Your marriage is probably not much different than most others - we all have times when we disagree and are annoyed with our partner. We are taken advantage of by them, and we must deal with their latest obsessions. This is normal. My husband spent over 15 years of our marriage obsessing about where he served his mission. All he wanted to do was go back there and relive everything. I tried to be supportive and I finally fully supported him going back while I stayed home for two weeks alone with our 5 young children and he spent thousands of dollars to get there and try to find all the people he had taught. Now that he has come back, the obsession is gone and boy am I glad that I was long-suffering and agreeable enough to let him go on this journey that helped him mature and progress in his life. The only justifiable reason for divorce is if your wife is breaking the law of chastity. Even if she were abusing your children, your best choice would be to separate and not divorce. These covenants are for eternity, and we can't let difficulty allow us to break that covenant.

Wow, I'm sorry that you had to deal with this. Maturity issues can be so heart rending. This is something that I understand. As for separation vs. divorce, I can say that the least stressful or tense times in our home are when she isn't there. She has spent time with her family and was even in a facility for 6 days, a little while ago. It was amazing to me to compare and contrast the difference. I try to help that be in our home, when she is there, but I feel like I am fighting uphill.

The calling and election stuff is on every lds forums/discussion group out there. One only needs to look here on this forum to see the numerous threads dedicated to that topic. I would take this opportunity to learn the doctrine yourself and teach the truth to your family so they are not led astray by the counterfeits of Satan.

I actually am familiar with the doctrine and am amazed at how much it gets twisted, in my view. More than anything, it seems, by people that are impatient with this life and just want to know that they have arrived at the final goal and can thus take the foot off of the spiritual gas pedal. At least, that is my observation.

And I wouldn't send a letter to the First Presidency, as they are already aware of what your wife believes and the distress it is causing families who butt heads on this issue. What would you like them to say to persuade your wife? Perhaps that the prophet will never, ever invite any member to live on Church property? I don't see them ever saying something like that. All you can do is compromise and focus on your kids.

I mostly agree with this statement. You ask what I'd like to hear. My response would be something that isn't likely to happen, but nonetheless it would be for the General Authorities to come out directly against false prophets. It seems that they talk about it and I hear their messages, but they aren't direct enough for my wife. Just my opinion.

[EmmaLee]

You ask what I'd like to hear. My response would be something that isn't likely to happen, but nonetheless it would be for the General Authorities to come out directly against false prophets. It seems that they talk about it and I hear their messages, but they aren't direct enough for my wife. Just my opinion.

This is why it was suggested awhile back on that other thread. If they don't know the extent of the damage the Julie Rowe cult is causing to members and families, they can't do anything about it. Even if they did know, they might not do anything about it - especially as Rowe is careful to never disparage or speak against the Church or the Brethren (yet). Even though her followers put her suggestions above those of the Church, and to them, everything she says supersedes everything we hear from Church Headquarters - that doesn't seem to be enough for the Church to officially come out specifically against her false teachings and fraud.

The letter sent to all CES people (to not teach or quote from Rowe's book - https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/ ... on3831.pdf ), and this statement - "We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders,” (LDS church spokesman Eric Hawkins), are apparently not enough for the confused and easily deceived people who continue to be Rowe disciples. So I can understand why you want the Brethren to come out with a more specific statement - and I agree that they should, because your story is, sadly, not unique at all - there are MANY who are going through the same and similar as you are. Families ruined - marriages ended - bankruptcy (because Julie has to pay her bills somehow) - children not born (because who wants to give birth in a tent) - missions not served (because who wants to go on a mission when you'll just be called home to live in a tent) - children in a constant state of fear, etc. etc. etc. But if they don't know all this is happening in the Church, and the EXTENT of it (i.e. just how many hundreds of people it is affecting), yes, nothing will be done about it. Maybe it will end up being the government that actually stops Rowe - for fraud and tax evasion - but then her diehard followers will just curse the gov't and cling to her even more fervently.

Anyway, good luck. I sincerely wish you the best and hope you're able to find relief somehow.

[lone-knight]

I disagree entirely with writing letters to the Brethren. At this level Bishops (who may turn this back to Home Teachers, Elders Q/High Priests) and then Stake Presidents are your line of authority. If they recommend you take it higher then you have followed proper protocol.

I agree with this approach. There have been discussions with my local leadership and I will continue the dialog.

The second issue is you are simply reading responses but are foundering in the miry miasma of indecision. OF all the people you can write, call, send smoke signals and so on YOU are the presiding person in your family. You are the one best capable of being guided by the spirit for both blessings and direction. If you deal with this properly you become more capable as a priesthood holder, you become stronger and more confident in the Lord. These experiences are provided so that priesthood holders can grow spiritually.

Well stated and much appreciated. I would agree that I am floundering in indecision, primarily because I feel like there are large things that face my family. Decisions become weighty, on me, because the the primary responsibility to protect my family falls on my shoulders. That seems to become particularly more difficult when it seems that I have to face it alone. For this, I have appreciated the input and need to set a course towards the future.

As well you have had two people provide answers that have actual experience with these kind of things, myself and backblast. You can spin in circles all day long and watch this thing continue to fall apart or you can at least make a decision and go forward. If you live in Utah anywhere from say Lehi north to Ogden or there bouts, we can meet and discuss possibilities. In several cases where I have worked with priesthood holders there is great reticence to recognize Satan is real and within your purview of responsibility. As well there is generally great temerity in actually doing something about it.

I work in SLC and live in Davis county. I recognize that Satan is real and I see the hold that has happened in my home. It is distressing to say the least. Notwithstanding my efforts to keep mysel and my heart right, it seems that the hold won't go away. I have really appreciated the insights from you and from backblast.

[BeNotDeceived]

lone-knight, have you written your letter to one (or more) of the apostles yet about all this? If not, why not?

Honestly, I haven't - because I don't even know where to start.

Chances are some have read this public forum :-\

[EmmaLee]

lone-knight, have you written your letter to one (or more) of the apostles yet about all this? If not, why not?

Honestly, I haven't - because I don't even know where to start.

Chances are some have read this public forum :-\

We can hope. It would be good if they read AVOW, too, as that is where the cult is most prevalent. :-$

[Sarah]

Lone-knight,

There are much more awful things your wife could announce to you than the fact that she wants to make her calling and election sure. Obviously she is dabbling in some spiritually dangerous territory, but like you said, your problems with her started before these latest obsessions. Rather than trying to justify your anger and desire to give up by blaming the things she has been influenced by, it would be better to focus on courting her and working on other aspects of your marriage.

While I agree with the sentiment here and I feel the chastening, there is more to the story as well. When it comes to courting her, I have tried. The paths that it leads down are not good. Usually leads to more lies and manipulation. I do not blame the things that she has/is dabbling in. While true that I wish that the didn't exist, it is accurate to say that there would likely just be something else for her to attack me with.

Your marriage is probably not much different than most others - we all have times when we disagree and are annoyed with our partner. We are taken advantage of by them, and we must deal with their latest obsessions. This is normal. My husband spent over 15 years of our marriage obsessing about where he served his mission. All he wanted to do was go back there and relive everything. I tried to be supportive and I finally fully supported him going back while I stayed home for two weeks alone with our 5 young children and he spent thousands of dollars to get there and try to find all the people he had taught. Now that he has come back, the obsession is gone and boy am I glad that I was long-suffering and agreeable enough to let him go on this journey that helped him mature and progress in his life. The only justifiable reason for divorce is if your wife is breaking the law of chastity. Even if she were abusing your children, your best choice would be to separate and not divorce. These covenants are for eternity, and we can't let difficulty allow us to break that covenant.

Wow, I'm sorry that you had to deal with this. Maturity issues can be so heart rending. This is something that I understand. As for separation vs. divorce, I can say that the least stressful or tense times in our home are when she isn't there. She has spent time with her family and was even in a facility for 6 days, a little while ago. It was amazing to me to compare and contrast the difference. I try to help that be in our home, when she is there, but I feel like I am fighting uphill.

The calling and election stuff is on every lds forums/discussion group out there. One only needs to look here on this forum to see the numerous threads dedicated to that topic. I would take this opportunity to learn the doctrine yourself and teach the truth to your family so they are not led astray by the counterfeits of Satan.

I actually am familiar with the doctrine and am amazed at how much it gets twisted, in my view. More than anything, it seems, by people that are impatient with this life and just want to know that they have arrived at the final goal and can thus take the foot off of the spiritual gas pedal. At least, that is my observation.

And I wouldn't send a letter to the First Presidency, as they are already aware of what your wife believes and the distress it is causing families who butt heads on this issue. What would you like them to say to persuade your wife? Perhaps that the prophet will never, ever invite any member to live on Church property? I don't see them ever saying something like that. All you can do is compromise and focus on your kids.

I mostly agree with this statement. You ask what I'd like to hear. My response would be something that isn't likely to happen, but nonetheless it would be for the General Authorities to come out directly against false prophets. It seems that they talk about it and I hear their messages, but they aren't direct enough for my wife. Just my opinion.

I'm sorry you are going through this - it does sound awful. And I know I can only give you advice from my perspective which is different from your own. Without observing your wife it's hard to know exactly what to make of her. I think you've had some good advice, and that would be to continue to look at this as both a physical and spiritual sickness that you must seek the Lord's guidance and power to heal. I know from experience that some people cannot be reasoned with, and so love is your best bet for combating all of this, but love also means sticking to appropriate bounds on behavior. You need to be clear what behaviors are acceptable and which are not.

[Gage]

Its probably because the church feels they shouldnt have to babysit grown adults and lead them by the hand away from every "last day" scammer out here. Read your scriptures there are plenty of warnings. Try using a little common sense that will help to. You probably just need to grow a set and take control of your home. If it means not being with your wife anymore to get that control then so be it.

[lone-knight]

Its probably because the church feels they shouldnt have to babysit grown adults and lead them by the hand away from every "last day" scammer out here. Read your scriptures there are plenty of warnings. Try using a little common sense that will help to. You probably just need to grow a set and take control of your home. If it means not being with your wife anymore to get that control then so be it.

I agree that no babysitting should be required. The irony is that you should post this response right after Sarah. These are the arguments that I am having internally. Though 'growing a set' might be taking things a step far. Mostly because, I want to make sure that whatever is done, is the right thing.

[Finrock]

One thing strikes me as odd, though - lds pioneers were getting told in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's 2nd Coming in the flesh. Obviously that didn't happen. Were their blessings wrong? Throughout the scriptures we read things like "behold, I come quickly" or "the time is near, even at the gates", etc. The early saints totally believed that the 2nd Coming was "any day now." So what happened? Why are we still getting the same revelation as they did? There's an elderly brother in my ward who says that his patriarchal blessing says the same thing- he's going to be here for the 2nd Coming. It seems like the members of the church have been waiting, warning, and preparing for the 2nd Coming ever since the Restoration up until now, and all because of revelation telling them this. So I think there's something we're not understanding.

A couple of years ago I was praying to know if I would be alive on the earth, in my mortal body, when the 2nd Coming happened. I was told yes, I would be alive for the 2nd Coming BUT that I was not understanding what the 2nd Coming actually was. My expectation of disaster, upheaval, war, etc and then Christ coming down while the wicked are burned is not it.

So later a friend commented to me that his understanding of the 2nd Coming was when people, on an individual basis, receive Christ in the flesh, meaning the 2nd Comforter.

Is it possible that all the upheaval, disaster, tent cities, etc is symbolic and not literal? And that the Christ coming again to the earth happens for the righteous one by one? It could explain why pioneer saints were told they'd be alive for the 2nd coming - maybe it was a promised blessing of receiving the 2nd Comforter, which is why it's still being promised in blessings today.

It would also mean that all the wickedness and darkness that we confront in our lives is the time of tribulation and testing that occurs before one is prepared to receive Christ. Standing in holy places, fleeing to Zion, tent cities in the mountains - all of these things could be symbolic of the spiritual battle going on, not the physical one.

One other option that is uncomfortable to consider is that this is all just bogus. Just saying...That is the conclusion others have made of prophecies that seem unfulfilled by the likes of Julie Rowe, et al. Isn't it interesting how we tend to accept things when said by a person or persons from the social group we support but reject things from another group that we don't recognize as legitimate, even when the evidence used to disqualify what has been said is essentially the same for both or all sources? Did that make sense? I struggled to write that down in a way that made sense. :))

-Finrock

[EmmaLee]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/07/this ... s?lang=eng

"The promised Second Coming of the Savior began with the First Vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820. We can be certain that we are in the last days—years and years of them.”

[EmmaLee]

Found one of the sources - see link in post above. ^^

I have heard many times (sorry, don't have any sources handy) that the 2nd Coming actually started with the First Vision Joseph had in the Sacred Grove in the spring of 1820. That was the 1st appearance - one of many - that would comprise what we call the "2nd Coming". Which, if true, would go a long way in explaining why people have been told, ever since then, that they would be alive at the 2nd Coming - because, they were. Anyone born from 1820 onward would, technically, "be alive" to see the 2nd Coming.