Dreams and Dreamers

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lone-knight
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Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

Teancum
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Teancum »

lone-knight wrote: Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.
LK, I have been around enough to have seen most of this avalanche arise from some small disturbances many years ago. I believe it is an inherent interest in most members to know where they are in terms of how close to the second comming of Jesus Christ they are, and as an extention, to know which things are prophesied to occur before that great and dreadful day. When they do have that desire to learn and then study the prophcies and scriptures related to this, there is a bleak picture painted of serious crap hitting the fan. This CAN cause fear to set in. This is an important point so remember it.

There are others who "out of the blue" have something happen to them out of the ordinary, whether it be an NDE, angelic visit, vision, dream, patriarchal blessing, or priesthood blessing, or a witness by the Holy Ghost. Many of this group remain silent about their experiences, often praying and seeking divine guidance to understand and move forward, UNTIL they are given a second and third or more witnesses. In my limited understanding, this happens when they hear of another who had nearly the exact same experience as their own. Then they group together, because it feels a whole lot better to finally not have the whole weight of the experience on ones-self. Sort of like "whew, I thought I was the only one". or "Im not the prophet, why did this happen to me?" There is more to this thought, but I think you get the general impression.

Some of this group, when they have found a sympathetic ear, and feel the relief of the burden lifted, share their experience with others as a warning to those in their circle. This sets them up on a little pedestal and can become the start of the wild media circus that we see from some that you have mentioned. For the hearers in the circle, there might be a sudden realization that they have not payed attention and are not ready. This thought CAN ALSO instill fear, and be the cause of debt ridden panic preparations - I think this has been addressed in conference.

So, those who have been set on a little pedestal, because it feeds their ego, continue to gain a following who clamor for more info (read - publish a book or other media), or else they see the fear based panic buying of others and see the $$$$ available. Perhaps they initially were just trying to help others with their abilities and products, but it so easily becomes a priestcraft, and how do you quit when so many are clamoring for more?

So back to answering your question. In a nutshell, there is some truth to some of these concepts, but because A) often it comes from an outside source, and not through proscribed channels, B) is heavily surrounded by priestcraft or the like, C) may be accompanied by panic fear, and D) not given to everyone eaqually (see gifts of the spirit, and discernment of such), there is ample reason to feel uneasy about it. Just remember though, many of these concepts do have some truth and can be traced back in origin to the scriptures, early bretheren, leaders and prophets. But as is always the case, you MUST study, ponder, and pray for you to have the peace of God on the matter.

Gage
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Posts: 702

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Gage »

lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 11:50 am Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

Sir I apologize as much as I would love to participate in this discussion I am afraid that I will offend someone or hurt someones feelings and be told I am an awful person for doing such. There are many many scriptures warning of the Julie Rowe's of the world that will come and many scriptures describing your family. The scriptures actually describe your family to the T.

lone-knight
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Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Gage wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 1:24 pm Sir I apologize as much as I would love to participate in this discussion I am afraid that I will offend someone or hurt someones feelings and be told I am an awful person for doing such. There are many many scriptures warning of the Julie Rowe's of the world that will come and many scriptures describing your family. The scriptures actually describe your family to the T.
I do welcome the discussion. As long as things are not intended to offend, I think we should be able to share. Like I said, I welcome the points of view and there isn't any reason to be hateful. Nor is there any reason to be dishonest. If you prefer, I'd welcome PM as well. If things don't ring true, I can always just move on.
Last edited by lone-knight on May 2nd, 2017, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gage
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Gage »

No I do not believe that they ever just write a book initially to "warn us." The whole thought from the VERY beginning is to make money and receive praise and attention.

Z2100
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Z2100 »

Gage wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 1:24 pm
lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 11:50 am Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

Sir I apologize as much as I would love to participate in this discussion I am afraid that I will offend someone or hurt someones feelings and be told I am an awful person for doing such. There are many many scriptures warning of the Julie Rowe's of the world that will come and many scriptures describing your family. The scriptures actually describe your family to the T.


Last days prophecies in action!

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Sarah »

I think Kenssurplus's post pretty much sums it up. There is always going to be truth, and then a counterfeit to that truth. So Satan likes to take truths and use them to further his ends. And even those with good intentions get caught up in fear and falsehood and are led astray.

We know things are going to get bad, just reading the scriptures we know this. Our country is on course to experiencing the same fate as the Nephites and Jaredites. A reasonable question to ask oneself is how the saints will be preserved and how will they be organized through all of this.

Lots of quotes from Brigham and Heber C. talking about everyone gathering and walking to the rocky mountains looking for food. Lots of quotes about there being no food. But our big cities in Utah would not fare well if there was a true lack of food in the stores. So besides the fact that I've had my own dreams about these events, I think the gathering ideas are a logical explanation that makes sense to a lot of people. But as Ken was saying, some have used last-day speculation to get gain and what may have started out as good intentions usually turns into providing an easy environment for wolves to lead the flock astray.

Mcox
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Mcox »

I was where your wife is 2 years ago. I was convinced of a call out. I bought into all the dreams and NDE. I am now very opposed to it all. The reason why? I was the gospel doctrine teacher for 4 years. And I would study the scriptures along with the institute manuals, and never did any of these dreams/NDE ever square with what I was reading. In fact it was almost to the contrary. for example, a great talk by Elder Holland says this:
"One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee."
Read the whole talk it won't disappoint!

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... g?lang=eng

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

These are great points of view and I appreciate them.

@Gage & @Sarah, Thank you for the input. I know that Sarah knows some of what has been going on, for me. I am now just in the process of trying to better understand my own feelings and also understand where the 'other side' is coming from. I really appreciate the discussion.

@Z2100, Your tag line is basically a similar question to what I'm asking. Good to know that I'm not alone.

@Mcox, I really appreciate the link to that talk. This is the second time in the last three weeks that it has been suggested to me - guess I better go read/watch it. Thank you!

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shadow
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by shadow »

lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 11:50 am Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.
In dealing with intellectually honest people one would only have to point out how the dreamers dreams were unequivocally proven false. That's easy to do. With JR you just have to listen to her and read her words a year ago saying the wake-up quake was going to happen "any day" (not even soon, that's how close it was!) and it was going to happen PRIOR to the elections. We KNOW it didn't happen. With Sosa, he claimed Obama wouldn't leave office after the elections. We KNOW he left (sorry, Silver). So they were both completely wrong and false. But dealing with intellectually dishonest people will present issues. I'm not sure how to get past those problems. Maybe it's a pride thing??

DesertWonderer
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by DesertWonderer »

Here is another talk you should read: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

"As I say, it never ceases to amaze me how gullible some of our Church members are in broadcasting these sensational stories, or dreams, or visions, some alleged to have been given to Church leaders, past or present, supposedly from some person’s private diary, without first verifying the report with proper Church authorities.

If our people want to be safely guided during these troublous times of deceit and false rumors, they must follow their leaders and seek for the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord in order to avoid falling prey to clever manipulators who, with cunning sophistry, seek to draw attention and gain a following to serve their own notions and sometimes sinister motives.

The Lord has very plainly set forth a test by which anyone may challenge any and all who may come claiming, clandestinely, to have received some kind of priesthood authority. Now this is what the Lord said in the 42nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 11:

“Again, I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by someone who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.” [D&C 42:11]"

DesertWonderer
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by DesertWonderer »

If you want specifics on the travesty that is JR, Sosa, Menet, et al, just search this forum. There are dozens and dozens of pages of proof that what they say if false. Have any one of them had a single prediction or vision come true? No not once.

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brlenox
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by brlenox »

lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 11:50 am Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.
I would perhaps be able to contribute certain perspectives to this discussion. However I have a question first, are you the priesthood holder in your home?

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Rose Garden
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Rose Garden »

I was caught up in that sort of thing back around 2009 and 2010. I was sure everything was going to fall apart within a year. But it didn't and then the next year it didn't and the next year it didn't....

I was living in Korea at the time and any sort of preparation outside of spiritual preparation was virtually impossible. Food storage was near impossible. Sealed containers went moldy due to the high humidity in the area. Koreans rarely used canned food either, so you couldn't buy storage. I became content during those years with the survival skills I was learning, like how to ferment food and forage in the forest.

However, despite my inability to store anything, I still experienced the emotions that come from that state. I believe that people get caught up in those sorts of things because they find this world near unbearable to endure. Everything seems so unfair and so there is a sense of wanting change. The call out aspect appeals to individual pride and the very human trait of feeling like you are chosen or special in some way. Plus, since you perceive a need for the world to undergo turmoil, you want a way to escape that turmoil. It's not easy to get past the problem because as it becomes apparent that you are wrong, facing the embarrassment is painful and so you are motivated to come up with reasons to cover up the mistakes.

RAB
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by RAB »

I think it helps to look at Moroni 7:29-31. "And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men. For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness. And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfill and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him."

So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.

Furthermore, I have a healthy skepticism of so called revelations that prophets have shared about end times with "close friends", home teaching families, etc. I don't believe the Lord reveals such sacred things to blabber mouths, and tales of prophets sharing such things only besmirch the character of prophets. Joseph Smith said that if we wanted to receive sacred revelation we would have to learn to keep a secret so that the Lord could trust us with that revelation, and then added, "I can keep a secret till doomsday." How many of the dreamers have kept private what, if true, would certainly be sacred revelations? That should be a key clue about whether those dreams are truly revelation, or rather just dreams.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Sarah »

lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 4:32 pm These are great points of view and I appreciate them.

@Gage & @Sarah, Thank you for the input. I know that Sarah knows some of what has been going on, for me. I am now just in the process of trying to better understand my own feelings and also understand where the 'other side' is coming from. I really appreciate the discussion.

@Z2100, Your tag line is basically a similar question to what I'm asking. Good to know that I'm not alone.

@Mcox, I really appreciate the link to that talk. This is the second time in the last three weeks that it has been suggested to me - guess I better go read/watch it. Thank you!
Looking back on what I went through with my husband, having a similar type of clash, the only advice I can give is to love her the best way you can, like the way you would love your child, but explain to her that you have clear boundaries (or rules) when it comes to how your combined money will be spent. These boundaries are not there because you don't love her, but because you feel the need to have a savings or whatever your reasons are. She needs to learn to respect your boundaries on how much you can give.
It sounds like you've done this and because of her mental illness she has become totally unreasonable, but it sounds like you are doing all you can. Now if only she could start to feel the same, that she is doing all she can, and because of that, she can trust that the Lord will make up the difference if it was out of her control. When I began to feel that I could trust in the Lord completely and that I was doing everything in my power to prepare for his coming, I didn't need to worry or fear anymore, because I knew he would take care of me and he has demonstrated that to me already.

brianj
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Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by brianj »

Mcox wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 4:21 pm I was where your wife is 2 years ago. I was convinced of a call out. I bought into all the dreams and NDE. I am now very opposed to it all. The reason why? I was the gospel doctrine teacher for 4 years. And I would study the scriptures along with the institute manuals, and never did any of these dreams/NDE ever square with what I was reading. In fact it was almost to the contrary. for example, a great talk by Elder Holland says this:
"One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee."
Read the whole talk it won't disappoint!

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... g?lang=eng
Interesting. I won't bother with a debate on the meaning of the church never again fleeing, but I find it very curious that you and I come to such different conclusions from studying the scriptures.

I've posted here that I have believed in the idea of gathering for safety since long before I ever heard of any of these authors claiming visions. When I read prophecies, both within canonized scripture and others, of a great second civil war then read about how Omer and his household were preserved (Ether 9) I became convinced that we will be preserved in much the same way that Omer was restored to his throne.

brianj
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by brianj »

RAB wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 6:07 pm So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.
It sounds like you are saying God is a respecter of persons. If God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, D&C 1:35) then people don't qualify for angelic visitation by receiving the right calling.

Additionally, I have heard general authorities talk about some nobody having angelic visitations. I was at a stake conference in December or January where a General Authority Seventy spoke of some nobody, holding no calling, not temple worthy, and not even an active church member, experienced an angelic visitation that led him back to the church accompanied by the mother of his children (whom he married) and their children.

Angels can be sent to every one of us when necessary. Even President Monson pointed this out in a conference talk where he discussed an interview with his stake president prior to his being called to the Melchizedek priesthood. In that talk President Monson reminded all of us that the Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels.

In light of President Monson's words on this subject, delivered in the Priesthood Session of the April 2015 general conference, do you stand by your claim that angels are sent to prophets and apostles and that angelic visits don't come to the rest of us?

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

brlenox wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:37 pm I would perhaps be able to contribute certain perspectives to this discussion. However I have a question first, are you the priesthood holder in your home?
For a direct answer, I would reply that I am the husband and hold the Melchizedek priesthood. So, yes, though my views on the matter are that I try to be very careful as to what that means. I also have an Aaronic priesthood holder in my home. Proud father to three boys and a little girl.

lone-knight
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Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Meili wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:55 pm I was caught up in that sort of thing back around 2009 and 2010. I was sure everything was going to fall apart within a year. But it didn't and then the next year it didn't and the next year it didn't....

I was living in Korea at the time and any sort of preparation outside of spiritual preparation was virtually impossible. Food storage was near impossible. Sealed containers went moldy due to the high humidity in the area. Koreans rarely used canned food either, so you couldn't buy storage. I became content during those years with the survival skills I was learning, like how to ferment food and forage in the forest.

However, despite my inability to store anything, I still experienced the emotions that come from that state. I believe that people get caught up in those sorts of things because they find this world near unbearable to endure. Everything seems so unfair and so there is a sense of wanting change. The call out aspect appeals to individual pride and the very human trait of feeling like you are chosen or special in some way. Plus, since you perceive a need for the world to undergo turmoil, you want a way to escape that turmoil. It's not easy to get past the problem because as it becomes apparent that you are wrong, facing the embarrassment is painful and so you are motivated to come up with reasons to cover up the mistakes.
I really appreciate your honesty and sharing. Thank you for your perspective.

lone-knight
captain of 50
Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

RAB wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 6:07 pm I think it helps to look at Moroni 7:29-31. "And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men. For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness. And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfill and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him."

So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.

Furthermore, I have a healthy skepticism of so called revelations that prophets have shared about end times with "close friends", home teaching families, etc. I don't believe the Lord reveals such sacred things to blabber mouths, and tales of prophets sharing such things only besmirch the character of prophets. Joseph Smith said that if we wanted to receive sacred revelation we would have to learn to keep a secret so that the Lord could trust us with that revelation, and then added, "I can keep a secret till doomsday." How many of the dreamers have kept private what, if true, would certainly be sacred revelations? That should be a key clue about whether those dreams are truly revelation, or rather just dreams.
Thank you for the perspective. I would say that I feel pretty good about that general premise. I do think that angelic visitations are not only for church leadership - but I also think that they are pretty rare. Part of my issue is the feeling that I have that there are people out there that may be confusing angelic visitations and/or are using their own thoughts coupled with saying that angels revealed it to them. It makes things very difficult for me to find the truth without wondering why they seem to be intent on sharing these experiences.

lone-knight
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Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Sarah wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 6:40 pm Looking back on what I went through with my husband, having a similar type of clash, the only advice I can give is to love her the best way you can, like the way you would love your child, but explain to her that you have clear boundaries (or rules) when it comes to how your combined money will be spent. These boundaries are not there because you don't love her, but because you feel the need to have a savings or whatever your reasons are. She needs to learn to respect your boundaries on how much you can give.
It sounds like you've done this and because of her mental illness she has become totally unreasonable, but it sounds like you are doing all you can. Now if only she could start to feel the same, that she is doing all she can, and because of that, she can trust that the Lord will make up the difference if it was out of her control. When I began to feel that I could trust in the Lord completely and that I was doing everything in my power to prepare for his coming, I didn't need to worry or fear anymore, because I knew he would take care of me and he has demonstrated that to me already.
Thank you, I really appreciate this perspective. I have been doing everything in my power - though I am often met with resistance because she feels that I am uninspired. The reason that she feels this way is because when I pray about these things and search for truth, the answers I receive are different from what has been proclaimed by the dreamers, especially the published dreamers. She has also found groups of people (Facebook and the like) that agree with her view, so she assumes that means truth.
This is part of the reason that I wanted to start this discussion. It would likely be easy for me to come to LSDFF and find people on each side of this fence, likely even with scriptures to support their view - but I am after the discussion and perspective. I just simply don't feel right about the dreams and dreamers, and am trying to better understand why that might be. Thank you for your input.

lone-knight
captain of 50
Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

brianj wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:37 pm Interesting. I won't bother with a debate on the meaning of the church never again fleeing, but I find it very curious that you and I come to such different conclusions from studying the scriptures.

I've posted here that I have believed in the idea of gathering for safety since long before I ever heard of any of these authors claiming visions. When I read prophecies, both within canonized scripture and others, of a great second civil war then read about how Omer and his household were preserved (Ether 9) I became convinced that we will be preserved in much the same way that Omer was restored to his throne.
Thank you! I appreciate your perspective. I won't hide my feelings that I read this and don't really agree with it. Nonetheless, I appreciate a civil approach. I have seen posts that have been less so, which doesn't help the discussion, for me.

One line that I struggle with here is reading prophecies 'within canonized scriptures and others' and I get a little lost. Making sure that we stay as doctrinal as possible, the 'and others' piece causes some concern. It is actually some of these others that have been publish that are causing turmoil, for me. I can appreciate commentary and insights, I have a hard time with these others because the feeling I have regarding them is largely negative.

lone-knight
captain of 50
Posts: 74

Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

brianj wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:49 pm
RAB wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 6:07 pm So, the pattern is that the Lord sends angels to the Chosen vessels of the Lord; those of strong faith, a firm mind, and every form of godliness, so that they can, in turn, preach the gospel and ensure the covenants are made via ordinances. Who does it sound like? I take that as those that hold the keys over the covenants, or prophets and apostles. Angelic visits from God don't just come to anyone. Most of us have the awesome possibility to be guided by a member of the Godhead, even the Holy Ghost.
It sounds like you are saying God is a respecter of persons. If God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, D&C 1:35) then people don't qualify for angelic visitation by receiving the right calling.

Additionally, I have heard general authorities talk about some nobody having angelic visitations. I was at a stake conference in December or January where a General Authority Seventy spoke of some nobody, holding no calling, not temple worthy, and not even an active church member, experienced an angelic visitation that led him back to the church accompanied by the mother of his children (whom he married) and their children.

Angels can be sent to every one of us when necessary. Even President Monson pointed this out in a conference talk where he discussed an interview with his stake president prior to his being called to the Melchizedek priesthood. In that talk President Monson reminded all of us that the Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels.

In light of President Monson's words on this subject, delivered in the Priesthood Session of the April 2015 general conference, do you stand by your claim that angels are sent to prophets and apostles and that angelic visits don't come to the rest of us?
As I read through RAB's comment, I didn't pull quite the same thing out, as you did. I take it more as we are indeed all able to receive these special experiences, but it is not on the general populous to disseminate this information. In part because it can lead to confusion as to where the direction is supposed to come from. The Lord has stated that his house is a house of order and if dreamer has their followers because of the belief of being able to closer to God, by association, that could lead to a lot of confusion.

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brlenox
A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by brlenox »

lone-knight wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 10:18 pm
brlenox wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:37 pm I would perhaps be able to contribute certain perspectives to this discussion. However I have a question first, are you the priesthood holder in your home?
For a direct answer, I would reply that I am the husband and hold the Melchizedek priesthood. So, yes, though my views on the matter are that I try to be very careful as to what that means. I also have an Aaronic priesthood holder in my home. Proud father to three boys and a little girl.

Well, I'm not going for the "man in charge mentality" if that is your concern. Instead, I have found value in shielding my family as the need arises through the exercise of priesthood. My simplest analogy is that there is not a worthy man out there that if he saw one of his family members being pummeled by some gang member, he would not hesitate to risk life and limb to bring them under his protection. The tangible issues we try to deal with head on and they are compelling because of their physical presence in our lives.

That is the nature of fatherhood - to provide, preside and protect. However, I find that there is a great misunderstanding concerning how it is that we act when using the tools God gave worthy men in these last days to provide, preside, and protect our families in the spiritual sense. Now I have no way of evaluating your situation. I can't see it, sense it or evaluate from an internet forum. However, there are, in a manner of speaking, gang members on the other side of the veil. Sometimes, we do not realize how these things work because it is different to see a tangible human being attacking our families but we are reluctant to recognize that there are others on the other side of the veil doing the same things. They are attacking our families. I can't tell the degree of influence but it is rest assured that there is some level of involvement taking place in your situation. They will go as far as they can.

Their Goal is to lead astray as we all recognize. As fathers, our goal is to make all appropriate efforts to prevent such within the constraints of faith and recognition of agency. Sometimes, if we are the affected person, we can overcome these things on our own as individuals over time. We slowly begin to realize that something isn't right and we begin to pull ourselves out of it. Sometimes we become completely subject to influences from the other side and it becomes a heck of an issue.

I have dozens of quotes concerning such things but am going to hit the sack here tonight. However, I wanted to give you something to ponder on. This is not a conversation item for your family or those others who seem to being caught up in the situation. This is most likely not going to be something that you can convince them of in conversation or showing them scriptures and quotes and such, unless you can change the other side of the veil dynamic first. However , it is for you to consider as to whether this situation can come under your capacity as the spiritual protector of those over whom you have been given stewardship to care for. I do believe the Lord provides opportunities to teach us how to expand our use of his authority in appropriate ways just as he did for Joseph Smith in the Newel K. Knight event of the early church. I am convinced that experience was sustained by the Lord as a means to educate Joseph about things he had no clue concerning until that moment.

What I have mentioned above is only the beginning of a very deep subject and one that I am very careful with and in fact will not pursue in much depth on an internet forum. However, ponder on these things and give it some thought and see if maybe this does not strike a chord in you for possibilities you may not have explored before. I caution against any rash acts as the how of these things is best gently understood. I have found that the Lord often provides many opportunities in our lives to expand on our use and understanding of how to use our priesthood effectively. The situation you may be dealing is similar to some I have observed can be managed or influenced sometimes in positive ways with understanding but also with a sensitivity to the roles of agency in the process. Again think about it. If it seems appropriate tomorrow I may toss out a few of the quotes from general authorities that illustrate possibilities.
Last edited by brlenox on May 2nd, 2017, 11:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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