Dreams and Dreamers

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
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lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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Spider wrote: May 24th, 2017, 10:51 pm Lone-knight, have you studied information about personality disorders? This may be very helpful for you.
I have and while the information is helpful, it hasn't helped me in managing the day to day issues. Part of what I am looking for here, is to understand the drive of dreams and dreamers. I know that it has been prophesied that there would be a multiplicity of dreams and dreamers in the last days. The struggle that I have is that I tend to be skeptical because I haven't found any that I feel right about.

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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True wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 4:10 pm Lone-knight,
My mom has been obsessed with preparation as far back as I can remember. She was lucky in that they had plenty of money to slowly and sometimes not so slowly collect supplies. She bought a ton during the recent Julie Rowe debaucle. She has everything imaginable but it is never enough. I told her recently, "Mom, you are prepared now, you have everything, you can stop." She said, "If I had everything, then I would have a solar-powered generator." I knew then something that my dad has known for years. It will never be enough.
Despite this short coming in my mother, my dad is crazy about my mom. He is loyal and true and loves her. He has accepted this part of her and deals with it. As a daughter, I am so glad. At this point I have to admit that my mom is very respectful of my dad, loves him madly and would not go against his wishes - but he allows her a long leash and humors her bc he knows she thinks she is operating by revelation. There are times where I know she is and then there are times I know she is operating under fear and not faith.
This thing comes in waves. Right now she is riding the crest of a wave. It will die down eventually. She is limited by your budget. But she will likely want to spend your extra income on year supply stuff for the rest of your life. Just make her Christmas, Mother's Day and birthday presents year supply. You get a turn for your stuff too. Come up with a compromise if you can.
I know in giving this advice, my mom is probably not the same as your wife but how can you obtain long suffering without practicing it? You can do it!! Don't give up on your marriage!
I appreciate the perspective. I continue to work every day to try and save my marriage. The challenge is real and the dreamers don't really help matters. They only provide rationale for her to continue in the anxiety. It is shredding my kids, though I'm sure that a separation would as well. Life is challenging and I am in the midst of feeling like I am drowning. Thanks for the input.

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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AI2.0 wrote: May 24th, 2017, 10:42 am This sounds like it could be associated with post partum depression. I'm not saying that everyone who obsesses about tent cities, end times and the mysteries of calling and election are suffering from mental illness, but it can become something that mentally ill focus in on and take it to extremes. It sounds like your wife is obsessing about temporal and spiritual safety and it's turned obsessive, paranoid and dysfunctional. If you think that might be a possibility, you might want to look into it, if it is, it should not be left untreated.
I firmly believe that it is associated with a condition called post-partum psychosis. She did have issues before but not to the extremes that exist now. She is seeing a counselor and taking medications; however, none of these things affect her beliefs. Rather, she retreats further into religious sentiments especially when it is fantastical. This makes it particularly challenging, from my perspective because I tend to be a skeptic of the fantastical.

I do believe in the power of the priesthood and the reality of our Heavenly Father and his plan. She has decided that her spiritual gift is to 'believe on the testimonies of others.' When I suggest that I think that is a preparatory gift and should not just stand and the end of testimony - she gets upset because she has never had a fantastical event (like a dream), except a few that she has decided on years after the fact.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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lone-knight wrote: May 30th, 2017, 3:43 pm
True wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 4:10 pm Lone-knight,
My mom has been obsessed with preparation as far back as I can remember. She was lucky in that they had plenty of money to slowly and sometimes not so slowly collect supplies. She bought a ton during the recent Julie Rowe debaucle. She has everything imaginable but it is never enough. I told her recently, "Mom, you are prepared now, you have everything, you can stop." She said, "If I had everything, then I would have a solar-powered generator." I knew then something that my dad has known for years. It will never be enough.
Despite this short coming in my mother, my dad is crazy about my mom. He is loyal and true and loves her. He has accepted this part of her and deals with it. As a daughter, I am so glad. At this point I have to admit that my mom is very respectful of my dad, loves him madly and would not go against his wishes - but he allows her a long leash and humors her bc he knows she thinks she is operating by revelation. There are times where I know she is and then there are times I know she is operating under fear and not faith.
This thing comes in waves. Right now she is riding the crest of a wave. It will die down eventually. She is limited by your budget. But she will likely want to spend your extra income on year supply stuff for the rest of your life. Just make her Christmas, Mother's Day and birthday presents year supply. You get a turn for your stuff too. Come up with a compromise if you can.
I know in giving this advice, my mom is probably not the same as your wife but how can you obtain long suffering without practicing it? You can do it!! Don't give up on your marriage!
I appreciate the perspective. I continue to work every day to try and save my marriage. The challenge is real and the dreamers don't really help matters. They only provide rationale for her to continue in the anxiety. It is shredding my kids, though I'm sure that a separation would as well. Life is challenging and I am in the midst of feeling like I am drowning. Thanks for the input.
What are you most concerned about regarding her behavior toward your children? Are they starting to worry and have obsessions as well?

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Sarah wrote: May 30th, 2017, 6:07 pm What are you most concerned about regarding her behavior toward your children? Are they starting to worry and have obsessions as well?
There are a couple of aspects that are concerning, as related to my kids. First, they have developed anxiety, related to the end times prognostications, but even more than that - I fear that their hearts are turning away from their mom. My youngest boy was already in a bit of a bind because he deals with anger and focus issues. He really feels like his mom doesn't love him at all. I do what I can, from a father's point of view - but there isn't anything that can replace the love of a mother. He does get some of it from my mom, who is in my home every day because my wife has become effectively non-functioning.
It is interesting (and extremely sad) to see the reactions/moods of the kids completely flip when they get home or are around her for longer than about 15 minutes. I have given them blessings, I have dedicated our home, I have tried to make sure that I am doing everything in my power - but it frequently feels like it is done for naught. There are days (like yesterday) when it feels like nothing that anyone does will ever be right, with her, because she has to fight about pretty much everything - even if I just let the fight drop. It reminds me of what I hear about parents with their stereotypical pre-teen or teenager. Not a lot of fun and that negativity really hurts the kids.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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lone-knight wrote: May 31st, 2017, 9:30 am
Sarah wrote: May 30th, 2017, 6:07 pm What are you most concerned about regarding her behavior toward your children? Are they starting to worry and have obsessions as well?
There are a couple of aspects that are concerning, as related to my kids. First, they have developed anxiety, related to the end times prognostications, but even more than that - I fear that their hearts are turning away from their mom. My youngest boy was already in a bit of a bind because he deals with anger and focus issues. He really feels like his mom doesn't love him at all. I do what I can, from a father's point of view - but there isn't anything that can replace the love of a mother. He does get some of it from my mom, who is in my home every day because my wife has become effectively non-functioning.
It is interesting (and extremely sad) to see the reactions/moods of the kids completely flip when they get home or are around her for longer than about 15 minutes. I have given them blessings, I have dedicated our home, I have tried to make sure that I am doing everything in my power - but it frequently feels like it is done for naught. There are days (like yesterday) when it feels like nothing that anyone does will ever be right, with her, because she has to fight about pretty much everything - even if I just let the fight drop. It reminds me of what I hear about parents with their stereotypical pre-teen or teenager. Not a lot of fun and that negativity really hurts the kids.
Will your wife let you hold her for any length of time? Can you get her to relax in your arms?

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AI2.0
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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lone-knight wrote: May 30th, 2017, 3:56 pm
AI2.0 wrote: May 24th, 2017, 10:42 am This sounds like it could be associated with post partum depression. I'm not saying that everyone who obsesses about tent cities, end times and the mysteries of calling and election are suffering from mental illness, but it can become something that mentally ill focus in on and take it to extremes. It sounds like your wife is obsessing about temporal and spiritual safety and it's turned obsessive, paranoid and dysfunctional. If you think that might be a possibility, you might want to look into it, if it is, it should not be left untreated.
I firmly believe that it is associated with a condition called post-partum psychosis. She did have issues before but not to the extremes that exist now. She is seeing a counselor and taking medications; however, none of these things affect her beliefs. Rather, she retreats further into religious sentiments especially when it is fantastical. This makes it particularly challenging, from my perspective because I tend to be a skeptic of the fantastical.

I do believe in the power of the priesthood and the reality of our Heavenly Father and his plan. She has decided that her spiritual gift is to 'believe on the testimonies of others.' When I suggest that I think that is a preparatory gift and should not just stand and the end of testimony - she gets upset because she has never had a fantastical event (like a dream), except a few that she has decided on years after the fact.
These kinds of mental issues are exacerbated or can become more pronounced with age. She probably has always had some areas where she thought in extremes or had anxiety and unreasonable fears but post partum problems can really make it so much worse. I'm glad she's receiving medical treatment, but that's no guarantee you'll see improvement.
As for her claim that she 'believes on the testimony of others'--I'm sorry she's interpreting this to be a testimony of others' fantastical claims. I've always read that scripture to be in reference to a testimony of Jesus Christ. Considering that the majority of people in the church have no clue about these dreamers and dreams, and yet, they manage to avoid catastrophes and problems because God looks out for them and their well being, because they rely on him and they don't need others' dreams as a warning.

If you ask me, there are no easy answers for this. I'm glad you've got your mother helping and if she's there in the home, that should offer a stabilizing to the ups and downs of dealing with a mentally ill parent. I wish I had more to offer, other than simply prayers for you...

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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Sarah wrote: May 31st, 2017, 11:04 am Will your wife let you hold her for any length of time? Can you get her to relax in your arms?
Honestly, no. She tends to disdain me, because she can't convince me of her beliefs. As a result, I am seen as part of the problem - all the time. It is a nice thought though.

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

AI2.0 wrote: May 31st, 2017, 11:28 am These kinds of mental issues are exacerbated or can become more pronounced with age. She probably has always had some areas where she thought in extremes or had anxiety and unreasonable fears but post partum problems can really make it so much worse. I'm glad she's receiving medical treatment, but that's no guarantee you'll see improvement.
As for her claim that she 'believes on the testimony of others'--I'm sorry she's interpreting this to be a testimony of others' fantastical claims. I've always read that scripture to be in reference to a testimony of Jesus Christ. Considering that the majority of people in the church have no clue about these dreamers and dreams, and yet, they manage to avoid catastrophes and problems because God looks out for them and their well being, because they rely on him and they don't need others' dreams as a warning.

If you ask me, there are no easy answers for this. I'm glad you've got your mother helping and if she's there in the home, that should offer a stabilizing to the ups and downs of dealing with a mentally ill parent. I wish I had more to offer, other than simply prayers for you...
I appreciate the prayers and I also want to state that it isn't my intention to ' air the dirty laundry.' This discussion is born from the very real place of the damage that dreamers may not even realize that they are a part of. I do not hold them responsible for her actions. They did not cause her have these anxieties or make her write letters to people, to beg for money. Dreamers are only responsible for what they have done if that is lying, to sell a few books or for worldly acclaim - that is the issue, for me.

I think that my wife has always struggled, while it hasn't always been so evident. Also, I have always taken the definition of that spiritual gift similarly to how you have described it. For me, it is a sensitivity to the spirit in confirming the truth of our Savior. I have observed, on this forum, as well as in my daily life, how people interpret things differently than I do. I often feel that things are taken to extremes and/or out of context. That used to be far more distressing to me. Now, I just understand that others have different perspectives.

One blessing to come from all of the challenges over the last couple of years, is the ability to see from someone else's point of view without being immediately defensive - even when it feels off. Often my initial intuition is the correct path, for me, while I can't always tell you why.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

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lone-knight wrote: May 31st, 2017, 11:40 am
Sarah wrote: May 31st, 2017, 11:04 am Will your wife let you hold her for any length of time? Can you get her to relax in your arms?
Honestly, no. She tends to disdain me, because she can't convince me of her beliefs. As a result, I am seen as part of the problem - all the time. It is a nice thought though.
I'm sorry to hear that, and I'm sure that is really hard on you. I think it would be a good idea to make it a goal of yours to earn her trust enough that she will allow you to hold her.

There was a parenting book written in the 70's called "Holding Time." The claim from the author was that if you forcibly hold your children during their tantrums and not let them go until they relax, they eventually will relax and show you a profound amount of love afterwards. It sounded a little off, and it kind of is. Like other books I've read, the author discovers a true principle, but often applies the principle in ways I think are not the best. The particular behaviors they recommend aren't quite right - but the principle is still true. I did try out their methods, and they do work, but I don't think force is the correct approach.

But this is the principle - if you are able to show an increased amount of love even when someone is angry or upset at you, that person will come to absolutely trust in your love. I've used this principle with many of my relationships, and it works. It just takes a lot of self-control and unselfishness to use effectively.

I would make it a goal to have "holding time" with your wife and your youngest son. Tell them that you just want a time to talk about whatever is on their minds and hold them at the same time. You want to reassure them that you love them no matter what they say or how mad they are about how you are treating them. You will have to reassure your wife that you are not looking for anything more than time to hold her and talk. And you should encourage her to vent about how wrong you are while you are holding and loving her. You need to look at this way - the more angry she gets the better. Dig deep and ask questions to stir up her anger, all while you are able to lovingly hold her and stay calm. If you can do this multiple times a week you will be on your way to earning her trust.

If she's not willing to do that, maybe you can convince her to watch a movie with you while you sit by her (2012 might be one she would like :) ) Slowly add some non-sexual physical affection back to your relationship.

lone-knight
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by lone-knight »

Sarah wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:53 pm I'm sorry to hear that, and I'm sure that is really hard on you. I think it would be a good idea to make it a goal of yours to earn her trust enough that she will allow you to hold her.

There was a parenting book written in the 70's called "Holding Time." The claim from the author was that if you forcibly hold your children during their tantrums and not let them go until they relax, they eventually will relax and show you a profound amount of love afterwards. It sounded a little off, and it kind of is. Like other books I've read, the author discovers a true principle, but often applies the principle in ways I think are not the best. The particular behaviors they recommend aren't quite right - but the principle is still true. I did try out their methods, and they do work, but I don't think force is the correct approach.

But this is the principle - if you are able to show an increased amount of love even when someone is angry or upset at you, that person will come to absolutely trust in your love. I've used this principle with many of my relationships, and it works. It just takes a lot of self-control and unselfishness to use effectively.

I would make it a goal to have "holding time" with your wife and your youngest son. Tell them that you just want a time to talk about whatever is on their minds and hold them at the same time. You want to reassure them that you love them no matter what they say or how mad they are about how you are treating them. You will have to reassure your wife that you are not looking for anything more than time to hold her and talk. And you should encourage her to vent about how wrong you are while you are holding and loving her. You need to look at this way - the more angry she gets the better. Dig deep and ask questions to stir up her anger, all while you are able to lovingly hold her and stay calm. If you can do this multiple times a week you will be on your way to earning her trust.

If she's not willing to do that, maybe you can convince her to watch a movie with you while you sit by her (2012 might be one she would like :) ) Slowly add some non-sexual physical affection back to your relationship.
Thanks for the input. I actually do some of this already. Mostly with my kids though. I have tried even harder to make sure that tehy always know that their dad is there for them. No matter what. If she ever starts to make progress and perhaps even move beyond the things that dreamers say, there are years of healing that will have to take place. The trouble is that I am left questioning just how much of my life is meant to be spent without a help meet or companion.

Gage
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Gage »

"The more angry your wife gets the better" LOL. Said no man, ever.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Sarah »

Gage wrote: June 5th, 2017, 11:43 am "The more angry your wife gets the better" LOL. Said no man, ever.
Yes, you're right. No one likes an angry person, and ideally your spouse is not expressing anger all the time. But we all experience negative emotions and need to express it sometimes. I look at some of my most spiritual experiences with the Lord and it was in response to a negative emotion. It was his way of saying that he still loved me. And so it's not an intuitive or natural response to respond to anger with love. But it is the key for winning love. What I mean is that the more she is able to express her negative emotions only to find that you still love her, the more she will trust you. Wouldn't it be the same way for you too? That doesn't mean that you have to tolerate or listen to negativity all the time. You can leave or not respond to negative comments and stay positive yourself. Eventually some of that will rub off on her.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Sarah »

lone-knight wrote: June 5th, 2017, 11:08 am
Sarah wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:53 pm I'm sorry to hear that, and I'm sure that is really hard on you. I think it would be a good idea to make it a goal of yours to earn her trust enough that she will allow you to hold her.

There was a parenting book written in the 70's called "Holding Time." The claim from the author was that if you forcibly hold your children during their tantrums and not let them go until they relax, they eventually will relax and show you a profound amount of love afterwards. It sounded a little off, and it kind of is. Like other books I've read, the author discovers a true principle, but often applies the principle in ways I think are not the best. The particular behaviors they recommend aren't quite right - but the principle is still true. I did try out their methods, and they do work, but I don't think force is the correct approach.

But this is the principle - if you are able to show an increased amount of love even when someone is angry or upset at you, that person will come to absolutely trust in your love. I've used this principle with many of my relationships, and it works. It just takes a lot of self-control and unselfishness to use effectively.

I would make it a goal to have "holding time" with your wife and your youngest son. Tell them that you just want a time to talk about whatever is on their minds and hold them at the same time. You want to reassure them that you love them no matter what they say or how mad they are about how you are treating them. You will have to reassure your wife that you are not looking for anything more than time to hold her and talk. And you should encourage her to vent about how wrong you are while you are holding and loving her. You need to look at this way - the more angry she gets the better. Dig deep and ask questions to stir up her anger, all while you are able to lovingly hold her and stay calm. If you can do this multiple times a week you will be on your way to earning her trust.

If she's not willing to do that, maybe you can convince her to watch a movie with you while you sit by her (2012 might be one she would like :) ) Slowly add some non-sexual physical affection back to your relationship.
Thanks for the input. I actually do some of this already. Mostly with my kids though. I have tried even harder to make sure that tehy always know that their dad is there for them. No matter what. If she ever starts to make progress and perhaps even move beyond the things that dreamers say, there are years of healing that will have to take place. The trouble is that I am left questioning just how much of my life is meant to be spent without a help meet or companion.

I would stop questioning and decide if you want to be a part of healing this relationship or not. Do you want to do this for your kids? It sounds like you have lost hope and you just want to leave this situation. I would encourage you to not abandon her but to love her in every way you can. You don't have to give her has much money as she wants, nor do you have to tolerate all her negativity, but you can do everything else and stay positive. Try the holding time with her and report back!

Gage
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Gage »

Sarah wrote: June 5th, 2017, 5:04 pm
Gage wrote: June 5th, 2017, 11:43 am "The more angry your wife gets the better" LOL. Said no man, ever.
Yes, you're right. No one likes an angry person, and ideally your spouse is not expressing anger all the time. But we all experience negative emotions and need to express it sometimes. I look at some of my most spiritual experiences with the Lord and it was in response to a negative emotion. It was his way of saying that he still loved me. And so it's not an intuitive or natural response to respond to anger with love. But it is the key for winning love. What I mean is that the more she is able to express her negative emotions only to find that you still love her, the more she will trust you. Wouldn't it be the same way for you too? That doesn't mean that you have to tolerate or listen to negativity all the time. You can leave or not respond to negative comments and stay positive yourself. Eventually some of that will rub off on her.
I am almost certain that the devil started sending women to earth around about 1980. What I have found in my experience with relationships with females is that its best to just ignore something like this. When she brings it up change the subject. Talk about something else and do something else. The more you ignore her "last days anxieties" the better. Women dont want to be comforted like a newborn, they want sternness and to be treated with some authority. Any woman I tried compassion, and all the like treated me like crap. The ones I showed sternness with and told what to do and showed authority with I could not beat off with a stick.

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Sarah
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Sarah »

Gage wrote: June 6th, 2017, 8:14 am
Sarah wrote: June 5th, 2017, 5:04 pm
Gage wrote: June 5th, 2017, 11:43 am "The more angry your wife gets the better" LOL. Said no man, ever.
Yes, you're right. No one likes an angry person, and ideally your spouse is not expressing anger all the time. But we all experience negative emotions and need to express it sometimes. I look at some of my most spiritual experiences with the Lord and it was in response to a negative emotion. It was his way of saying that he still loved me. And so it's not an intuitive or natural response to respond to anger with love. But it is the key for winning love. What I mean is that the more she is able to express her negative emotions only to find that you still love her, the more she will trust you. Wouldn't it be the same way for you too? That doesn't mean that you have to tolerate or listen to negativity all the time. You can leave or not respond to negative comments and stay positive yourself. Eventually some of that will rub off on her.
I am almost certain that the devil started sending women to earth around about 1980. What I have found in my experience with relationships with females is that its best to just ignore something like this. When she brings it up change the subject. Talk about something else and do something else. The more you ignore her "last days anxieties" the better. Women dont want to be comforted like a newborn, they want sternness and to be treated with some authority. Any woman I tried compassion, and all the like treated me like crap. The ones I showed sternness with and told what to do and showed authority with I could not beat off with a stick.
What you're describing is finding a balance between being not too easy (give too much), too eager (want too much), or too challenging (withhold too much). When we get out of balance it encourages out-of-balance behavior from our spouse. That's good advice - to just ignore her bad behavior and do something else. And, you're right in that women long to have a strong fatherly figure just as much as men like a motherly figure at times.

The modern woman is simply the product of more freedom. When people have more freedom they also have more freedom to make poor choices.

Gage
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Re: Dreams and Dreamers

Post by Gage »

Sarah wrote: June 6th, 2017, 10:21 am
Gage wrote: June 6th, 2017, 8:14 am
Sarah wrote: June 5th, 2017, 5:04 pm
Gage wrote: June 5th, 2017, 11:43 am "The more angry your wife gets the better" LOL. Said no man, ever.
Yes, you're right. No one likes an angry person, and ideally your spouse is not expressing anger all the time. But we all experience negative emotions and need to express it sometimes. I look at some of my most spiritual experiences with the Lord and it was in response to a negative emotion. It was his way of saying that he still loved me. And so it's not an intuitive or natural response to respond to anger with love. But it is the key for winning love. What I mean is that the more she is able to express her negative emotions only to find that you still love her, the more she will trust you. Wouldn't it be the same way for you too? That doesn't mean that you have to tolerate or listen to negativity all the time. You can leave or not respond to negative comments and stay positive yourself. Eventually some of that will rub off on her.
I am almost certain that the devil started sending women to earth around about 1980. What I have found in my experience with relationships with females is that its best to just ignore something like this. When she brings it up change the subject. Talk about something else and do something else. The more you ignore her "last days anxieties" the better. Women dont want to be comforted like a newborn, they want sternness and to be treated with some authority. Any woman I tried compassion, and all the like treated me like crap. The ones I showed sternness with and told what to do and showed authority with I could not beat off with a stick.
What you're describing is finding a balance between being not too easy (give too much), too eager (want too much), or too challenging (withhold too much). When we get out of balance it encourages out-of-balance behavior from our spouse. That's good advice - to just ignore her bad behavior and do something else. And, you're right in that women long to have a strong fatherly figure just as much as men like a motherly figure at times.

The modern woman is simply the product of more freedom. When people have more freedom they also have more freedom to make poor choices.

Sarah if all women "got it" like you do and thought the way you do the world would be a better place for us all. I am sure you are a wonderful wife.

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