Dreams and Dreamers

[Sarah]

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

The church allows family members to access copies of their ancestor's patriarchal blessings. Some of these are made available to view online as well. Here's the link to Joseph Smith's patriarchal blessing, given to him by his father http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1834/2

Part of it says: "Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer Come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen"

There is even a book made up of patriarchal blessings from the early days of the church
https://www.amazon.com/Patriarchal-Bles ... +blessings

In the synopsis it says: "Contained in this volume are 755 blessings from 1833 through 1845 delivered by the church's first oracles, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, and William Smith. Prominent in these blessings is the promise that the reciepeints will live to witness the Second Coming, together with other period-specific expectations and doctrinally based beliefs. "

Why do I bring this up?
Your wife believes she has received revelation and she is acting on it. This is exactly what we are taught to do in church. She has received the same kind of revelation that prophets, patriarchs, and other worthy priesthood holders have been receiving since the church's inception, which is: you're going to be alive during the 2nd Coming so be prepared.

If you are going to understand why your wife's revelation is "wrong", then you should probably start with understanding why so many patriarchal blessings since pioneer days have been "wrong", too. It is entirely possible that the whole dreamer crowd is getting the same type of "revelation" as Joseph Smith got in his own patriarchal blessing.

.....

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

Butterfly - Well it looks like I may have to qualify this perspective a bit as you have jumped in without being fully informed. If you are going to do so much to undermine faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to question prophets and to propagate the kind of doubt that your posts often do then corrective efforts will be necessary. I so earnestly recommend that you give the prophets a second chance. They very often can provide insight so that you can see there is a plan in place and if you continue to make decisions without their guidance you will continue to be wrong. I hope you will be so kind as to consider this quote by Wilford Woodruff. Where in your pondering and in the writing of your post here you could not understand how Joseph could be on the earth when it was a rockin and a rollin, Wilford very kindly provides the insight that may have escaped your attention. I hope you will linger on these prophetic words long enough to reconsider your stance:

Who will resurrect Joseph’s Body? It will be Peter, James, John, Moroni, or someone who has or will receive the keys of the resurrection. It will probably be one of those who hold the keys of this dispensation and has delivered them to Joseph and you will see Jesus and he will eat peaches and apples with you. But the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase. Joseph and Jesus will be there. They will walk and talk with them at times and no man mistrusts who they are. Joseph will lead the Armies of Israel whether he is seen or no, whether visible or invisible as seemeth him good.

Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carlos, and when that is done then He will say, “now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected.

After Joseph comes to us in his resurrected body, He will more fully instruct us concerning the baptism for the dead and the sealing ordinances. He will say, be baptized for this man and that man and that man be sealed to that such a man to such a man, and connect the Priesthood together. I tell you there will not be much of this done until Joseph comes… (Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for the World’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff,pp.168-169. See also Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews, chapter 44, The Doctrine of the Resurrection, p. 505-525

Carefully parsed the underlined sections speak to the fact that Joseph will actually be resurrected before the end of times, in fact it could already of happened. Place this thought against all of your Patriarchal blessings and it is perfectly evident that there will be many who will assist and will have been resurrected - all prior to the end. It is evident that this all takes place before the end as the discussion of "the wicked will know nothing of it" and "the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase" is clearly pointing to a period of time prior to the second coming. ... and that's what prophets do for us, they take that which we cannot perceive and give us clarity. I hope you will see the value of this prophets words.

Wow, I've never seen that quote before. Thanks for that find. Now a certain revelation makes much more sense.

[FTC]

The problem is that mormon lives are dull, boring, and listless. You have kids that complain about being bored constantly and just want to disappear into their electronics, and spouses that nag you to no end about stuff that you can't stand. Things break, and you keep having to fix them. You wake up, go to work at a job that the highlight of the day is the going home part, so that you can eat the same meh food, go to sleep, then start it all over again. And you can't do much more than church callings or else the calamities of the 2nd coming happen on a weekly basis from the nagging spouse. The vast majority of movies, books, and entertainment are FICTION because real life events are BORING. Its no wonder mormons conjure up grandoise fantasies of National Lampoon's road warrior heroics to try and get at least a drop or two of something invigorating in their lives.

[BackBlast]

No worries. I am happy to help provide some context. Please understand as I carefully share. My wife has often struggled with organization, but in the fall of 2014, our baby girl was born and things have taken a dramatic turn since then. With the birth of our little girl, she states that she had a sense of urgency and begged the Lord to just let her sleep and then she would try to figure out the urgency.

After our 7th child, my wife had a severe case of postpartum psychosis. A state that I would liken to an animal who kills it's own young, only on a being who can reason and restrain herself. It can be very difficult to weather the urges that come. Violent or fearful, and they boil up in an individual like one feels the need to urinate. Delusions are common, especially religious delusions.

I'm not implying yours is identical, but there may be some common threads.

Around Christmas of that same year, she happened upon Roger K Young's book and saw it as a sign of what she should be looking into, then she read the First Presidency message of Sept. 2014 and decided that it was all connected. In late Jan. 2015, I came home from work, to find her vacuum packing winter clothing, in preparation for the call out. To be honest, I had noticed strange behavior before this, but just chalked it up to some of her sometimes odd behavior in conjunction to being a new mom.

I believe that this material (RKY, Julie Rowe, Soza, etc) may be related, but it is not the primary cause. While she has made this a primary issue, I'm going to leave the correctness or lack thereof of the experiences and narrative aside. Their correctness isn't really the issue.

We dealt with months of figuring out counselors and doctors. In May 2015 she was diagnosed schizophrenic by a psychiatrist that saw her two times. To this day, I am not certain that the diagnosis is 100%, but that is the only formal work that has been done. I can say that there are aspects of her actions that are symptomatic of schizophrenia, understanding that it is a spectrum disorder and hard to nail down.

It looks like you've dipped your toes in with the doctors. My wife spent a good deal of time in the care of doctors, including being institutionalized. This was, by a large margin, the worst experience of my life (and hers for that matter). I don't think there are very many scarier places on earth for a woman than a mental institution. Do a little bit of research if you wish to know more.

I do not wish to dwell on the details of my ordeal, but I do wish to share a little bit to show you that I have been through a somewhat similar situation and I can speak somewhat from experience. Not that I know everything or that I know exactly how to fix everything, you will have your own path through this and must figure a good deal out for yourself.

My first advice is that you do not trust doctors or the medical community to give you long term answers. They are a temporary resource only. Like, "my wife will kill herself if she doesn't get relief so she needs to be under observation for a few days until this passes" temporary. I would avoid all medications, long term treatments, and consider "diagnosis-es" as essentially useless. Many of the medications used do influence your spiritual receptors and the influences (both good and evil) can get louder or quieter, but your body and spirit will automatically begin to compensate, thus, it's a roller coaster that difficult to get off of. In my experience the medical community also doesn't really comprehend what it is, in fact, doing when attempting to mess around chemically with spiritually influences.

As a caution, once interned, you are under the control of others and lose essentially lose a large measure of free will. This has a deep and dramatic negative impact on a person and IMHO requires Christ's healing to fully overcome. Use with extreme caution.

She has seen several counselors, a couple of bishops, even had our stake president show up on our doorstep one evening. The story usually ends up repeating itself every time, with every person. She is frantic to explain herself and why don't we all get on board, people respond and think that they are helping, then she realizes that they don't believe the same things she does. They try to counsel with her and it ultimately results in her not listening to a word they have to say because she has decided that it is pointless to try and help them understand why they have to have 1+ years of food storage and winter camping gear by the end of the day.
She has even gone so far as to beg money from people online and send requests for money to every celebrity that she can think of.

My experience is that these kinds of reaching out are what she thinks as her only avenues of addressing her fear. Occasionally acting out deliberately is also an attention getting tactic. In a way, it is also a plea for help. As you are her companion, these messages are most likely directed at you if done overtly or not. She likely feels that you don't understand her, or understand her very poorly. She feels unsupported. These feelings likely have a kernel of truth to them, though they are augmented and made into mountains by the evil influences.

My advice here... You need to do what you can to heal the breaches. These are the cracks being leveraged to gain influence over her.

If you have any impediments to her feeling your love. You watch TV too much, surf the internet, games, don't spend enough time with the kids, neglect the honey-do list, etc etc. Think back to old fights or criticisms that she has mentioned in the past. Fix them. Fix them all. Don't draw attention to it and don't make excuses, just do it, even if it is totally unfair. Give up every little bit of selfishness you have left in you. Put it all on the altar for her, and talk about your sacrifices on her behalf with the Father and not her.

Beyond your day to day actions I advice to be clear, deliberate, and completely unambiguous with how you will help her with her fears, and where the limits are. She wants one year+ of food storage. If you don't have that already, make it a goal, make it a priority. Provide a budget and help her do it. State clearly that we will move prudently in this direction, moving quickly but not running faster than we have strength. Extra winter clothes and camping supplies are perhaps a bit harder. You could compromise and say, you know, we really should go camping as a family more. She can practice primitive cooking, or perhaps some other avenue that interests her, The kids get some outdoor time, throw in a thing you two you would like, and we can do it as a family. It can be fun based, not fear based. Show her clearly that you love her, support her, and will help her in these prudent goals that addresses her fears. But also tell her that we need to understand our own familial path. Not the path of dreamer X, Y, or Z. If the Lord has special instructions for us, let us be worthy of them, to pray for them. That will be of greater worth for us than anything found out there on the wide internet or books from various authors. And He WILL tell you. We are told to be not troubled. When the conduit of revelation is clear and exercised, fear will then be replaced with confidence, that the Lord is mindful of us, personally, our situation, our needs, our wants and our desires.

Then, when she turns to you, and she sees the effort and sacrifice, the selfless love you have gifted to her, it will be SLOW, but likely, it will happen. She will treasure you and give you such trust and love that you probably can't even visualize it at this moment and your relationship will transcend all you have known to date. At least, that was my experience.

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

[AI2.0]

Over the last couple of years, my home has been invaded by the teachings of Julie Rowe, Roger K. Young, Hector Sosa, Sarah Menet, and I'm sure there are others. I don't hide that these things don't feel right, to me. I have been accused of being prideful, blind, ignorant, uninspired, and negligent because I shun these teachings. The retort is often that I am just dumb because I don't see everything connecting, even though it is apparently right in front of my face.
Given that all of this is centered around 'end times/last days' discussions, I feel that it would be appropriate to have a well thought out discussion on the matter. If nothing else, to help me understand why these things seem to feel wrong. I'd love a doctrine based discussion here. If that is possible, it would sure help me. By the way, I am open to all points of view, when it is able to backed up doctrinally.
So, here are the first points that I don't understand why there is so much of a following on: the saints being gathering into tent cities in some form of post-apocalyptic scenario, the invasion of the U.S. by Chine and Russia leading to mass be-headings and torture, and the emphasis on winter camping gear and 1+ years of food storage as the price for entry into the tent cities.

I'm glad you started this thread, I think it allows for useful discussion.

You said that you'd love a doctrine based discussion so I'll try to stick to that. The Doctrine is not 'end times' or 'last days', it is Revelation and who receives revelation for the entire church membership. Whenever this discussion comes up there are many quotes that are brought out, visions which are attributed to Prophets and also the sincerity of those sharing these visions. It's hard to imagine that other members of the church might be lying about their experiences for various reasons.

First and most important. Only the LIVING Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may receive revelation for the entire church membership. Julie Rowe has crossed that line quite a few times in her pronouncements--which is one reason why she's criticized. She tried to claim that she was called to teach these things to the world (it was in one of her recent radio interviews) and that's why it was 'okay' for her to usurp the prerogative of Pres. Monson. But LDS don't believe there is any other living prophet who can speak to the world besides Pres. Monson. It is Pres. Monson's divine calling to preach to the world and receive revelation for the world. That's why 'authority' is so important. If it was not, then we would not know who to listen to.
Can others be prophets? Yes, they can and that is what we all should be striving for in our own lives. If we are living right and enjoying the gifts of the Holy Ghost in our life, then we can receive revelation for ourselves and those we hold stewardship over. Here's the problem for you. You and your wife hold stewardship over your family. You AND your wife can receive revelation for how to spend your resources and how to prepare for the future. You as the priesthood holder, preside in your home, but your wife should be your equal partner. In your particular situation, that may be a problem, if she does suffer from mental illness--this can mean her ability to make wise decisions and discern, may be limited or impaired.
Despite this mental issue, you should sincerely consider if you believe your wife to be able to feel the spirit and to be able to help make correct decisions for your family together. I think you might want to pray for guidance from the spirit to help you understand your wife and what things you might learn from her. I think if you turn to Heavenly Father for help and submit to his will--not to your own understanding, that will help you to be able to support your wife in the things that you can and help lessen the tension in the home. He loves your wife, she is his cherished daughter and he wants you both to have joy in your union. That can be hard to believe, but I know it's true. We all have trials and weaknesses but with the help of our Heavenly Father, and a strong love and commitment to each other, we can get through even the hardest trials that have been given to us.

The church, through our Prophet, has given us some guidelines on what to do to prepare for hard times--you can go to the church's website--we are encouraged to store food and other items, but we are also told to get out of debt and set aside money in an emergency fund. We are to learn to be self-reliant also. These are things that you can emphasize with your wife that you as a family can work on. The spirit will whisper to YOU and to your wife if there is more that your family may need to do to prepare.

You can always point out that these people she's reading and believing have never been right yet, but IMO, that doesn't work--it usually only makes them defensive and they will feel that you are minimizing and ignoring the dangers all around us--that's doesn't help her feel 'safe' with you as the head of the family and you want her to feel that you DO care about the well-being of your family and will do everything you can to keep them safe. Better to point out that we must be careful of who we listen to--so that we are not misled. God has given us a most incredible blessing! A living Prophet. All can listen to his words and be warned and blessed through heeding them. We need to listen to the Lord's living prophet. You can tell your wife that when the living Prophet warns us we will listen and heed his counsel--and that isn't just for temporal protection--but you as a family need to listen to his warnings for spiritual protection as well. If you lead your family in righteousness and love, doing the things that are important--leading in having daily scripture reading, daily family prayers and prayers each night with your wife, and you work on improving your own spirituality, that will make a difference. Also, as Brlenox suggested, Priesthood blessings can help to cast out false and lying spirits which may be present and they can bring peace and clarity to a troubled mind.

You've gotten professional help for your wife and that's very important. Modern medicine can bring what would only be seen as miracle treatments, a lot can be done now that was not available in the past. I would not listen to those who try to discourage you from listening to competent Doctors and therapists who you've prayed about and who you feel good about. If they suggest treatments, pray about them with your wife and the answers will come as you turn to Father for guidance and then trust him that he's knows what is best.

I hope this helps. I think you've been given some very good advice but you alone know your situation intimately-- and the very best one to go to for guidance is your Heavenly Father because he knows all and sees all.

[butterfly]

Have you considered that your wife really is getting "revelation", the same type of "revelation" as our pioneer saints? You believe your wife is wrong and it turns out that Joseph Smith and the patriarchs of his time were "wrong", too. So imo, the question to ask isn't "How do I convince my wife that the church is right and the Julie Rowes are wrong?" A more productive question would be "Why have members been getting authentic revelation, including Joseph Smith and early patriarchs, that all warn about being alive during the 2nd Coming and then don't come true?"

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

I have considered these thoughts. Thank you for the input. I don't know the answers on the patriarchal blessings that you mention and I am ok with saying that. It is possible that we misunderstand and there is more to things than we had assumed. As far as trying to convince my wife of anything - that is an impossible task. I am grateful for your thoughts. I would say that I have spent much time in prayer, pondering and fasting. Ultimately, I Don't feel that the fruits born out from these published dreams - seem to not be pertinent to my family. At least, that is what I feel.

A friend mentioned to me that my post seemed a bit confusing, so I just wanted to clarify. I have not found much that has been helpful to me personally from Julie Rowe or Sosa. I prayed about them and was basically told that her message wasn't for me to focus on. I also did not intend to convey that Joseph Smith or the early patriarchs didn't know how to receive revelation. What I was trying to say is that, if we take Joseph Smith's revelations literally, then it would appear that they are wrong. Just like if your wife takes her revelations literally, then it appears that she is wrong.

But if she feels understood that she truly believes she is receiving revelation, then just like we can see that Joseph Smith's revelations have a different interpretation, then maybe she likewise can accept a different interpretation to her own revelation.

This is why I brought up the patriarchal blessings. Obviously we don't understand everything in a patriarchal blessing so we should allow for new insights to what they mean. If people totally discount what your wife says, then it makes her close her ears to them because they don't believe her. But if people say "Hey, Joseph Smith got that same type of revelation about the end times and it had a completely different meaning, so maybe your revelation has a completely different meaning, too", then maybe that would allow her to feel understood while at the same time open to a different interpretation.

(However, as many have pointed out, the mental state can really be affected following pregnancy, so what I've shared may not apply at all. I just wanted to clarify what I meant).

[DesertWonderer]

Article of Faith #5

"We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."

If a person believes that this is scripture, from a modern day prophet, then you can know w/o a doubt that JR is a false prophet. She fails the test set forth by this article of faith.

[Z2100]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

Seriously?! That guy is messed up!

[lone-knight]

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

I really appreciate your experience. I can say that when she is off the medication - she gets more manic. There are issues that we are working through and need to work through. Nonetheless, the illness doesn't help. I will say that she cycles through waiting for the 'Wasatch Wake Up' pretty much every other month. It has led to an inability for her to function in daily life. That makes things extra challenging.

[BackBlast]

Over the course of this, you may need to cast out devils multiple times until the levers used for their machinations are healed. This seems to be a time buying measure more than anything to give reprieves and periods of rest.

Healing comes through Christ's power, and one day you will be able to do so by a blessing. It took stages with my wife, one element at a time. We have had many healing moments and major and minor steps. Took a major step about a week ago and the last bit of poison from her time under the care of doctors has been removed by His power. Thus we move, from grace to grace.

Good luck to you, brother.

I really appreciate your experience. I can say that when she is off the medication - she gets more manic. There are issues that we are working through and need to work through. Nonetheless, the illness doesn't help. I will say that she cycles through waiting for the 'Wasatch Wake Up' pretty much every other month. It has led to an inability for her to function in daily life. That makes things extra challenging.

I was effectively a single father of seven, with an additional needy dependent, for a time. It is very, very challenging. Again, I want to emphasize that I don't wish to tell you that my advice or paths through the challenges should be yours as well, they represent mine and you can take or leave as you feel you should. If you lean heavily on the Lord he can show you where to go and what to do. I did a lot of that because I had no idea what I should do most of the time. He had previously lined me up with an employer that would allow me the flexibility I needed to cope with the life event, and child care assistance that was suitable for my needs, protected my family from the DCFS reports that seemed to flow so readily, etc etc. As thy days may demand, so thy succor shall be.

[DesertWonderer]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

Seriously?! That guy is messed up!

Guess what materials he'd been reading? All the AVOW garbage!

[Z2100]

I understand your confusion. Here's my 2 cents:

1. Patriarchal Blessings are personal and are subject to misinterpretation, especially when we share them with others. Even if we share some piece of our blessing in an appropriate setting, what tends to happen is that someone will then pass on what they heard...or sometimes what they thought they heard, and it may or may not be what was actually meant in the blessing. Misquotes and misunderstandings are inevitable.

2. Patriarchal Blessings are eternal in their scope. This blows my mind, to be frank, so I will leave it at that, my point being that it is impossible for us to understand every aspect of the blessing we receive. I'm positive there will be promises in my blessing that will blow my mind when I see how they actually play out in my future.

3. My own blessing uses different wording from other family members' blessings to describe what will happen when I once again stand in front of the Savior in person. I've interpreted this differently throughout my life. Does this mean I will be alive while others won't, or vice versa? Or is it simply that the phraseology used by my patriarch was different than other patriarchs associated with my family? The real question...does it matter? Because,

4. We will ALL see Christ VERY soon, thus He IS coming quickly, as He has said numerous times both in scripture and via blessings. We are all mortal beings with a limited lifespan. I am 40 years old today. I might live to be as old as 90, or I may only make it to 45. Either way, it means I will be seeing my Savior very soon, within the next 50 years or so. In all of our cases, He "cometh quickly", so we all need to watch and be ready for Him, just as our ancestors were counseled to do. I have to live and prepare as though that meeting is tomorrow, because it IS for me.

Someday the Lord will return to the earth in glory as described in the scriptures, of that I'm certain. But in a very real way, He is coming to each one of us to embrace us and act as our advocate with the Father when we die. Does it matter if I see Him before I die, when He returns in glory to the earth, or if I see him when I die, not on the earth but still standing before me in glory?

Same climactic ending.

I agree with everything that you said above. Additionally couldn't' it be that not everything said in a PB is inspired? I'm aware of one patriarch that a few years ago was telling 16-17 yr olds they they would not be serving missions b/c of the end of the world. Those boys are now elders serving in various parts of the world.

Seriously?! That guy is messed up!

Guess what materials he'd been reading? All the AVOW garbage!

Tsk tsk

[simpleton]

So... I wonder what are the statistical effects ( or statistics/percentage numbers of lds ) of JR, Hector, Spencer and various other Wasatch earthquake call out camping end time specialists upon the lds.

@-) @-) @-)

[lone-knight]

So... I wonder what are the statistical effects ( or statistics/percentage numbers of lds ) of JR, Hector, Spencer and various other Wasatch earthquake call out camping end time specialists upon the lds.

@-) @-) @-)

Honestly, I wonder this same thing. In particular since my wife has found lds prepper and dreamer groups on the internet. It seems to spread like a virus. Once she finds these groups, she uses it as confirmation of her beliefs. Which ends up in a never ending cycle.

[lone-knight]

I was effectively a single father of seven, with an additional needy dependent, for a time. It is very, very challenging. Again, I want to emphasize that I don't wish to tell you that my advice or paths through the challenges should be yours as well, they represent mine and you can take or leave as you feel you should. If you lean heavily on the Lord he can show you where to go and what to do. I did a lot of that because I had no idea what I should do most of the time. He had previously lined me up with an employer that would allow me the flexibility I needed to cope with the life event, and child care assistance that was suitable for my needs, protected my family from the DCFS reports that seemed to flow so readily, etc etc. As thy days may demand, so thy succor shall be.

I appreciate that you understand the situation. There are big parts of what you are saying that make me wonder if you have been to my house. A lot od similarities. I am effectively a single father of 4 with that additional needy dependent. I am grateful to be with an employer that has been very patient with me and this family drama. In addition I have had family and friends that have stepped up to help me take care of the kids. I truly feel blessed and personal growth, even without a seeming end to the current trials.

[Matchmaker]

Thank you, interesting points. I would say that while these patriarchal blessings may be true, I have nothing to base them on. Quite frankly, I have no such statement in mine - does that mean that everyone is good until after I die? I haven't seen direct language like that and so my point of reference is where my blessing says that I'll be able to be part of the morning of the first resurrection. Not doubting, just trying my best to understand.

The church allows family members to access copies of their ancestor's patriarchal blessings. Some of these are made available to view online as well. Here's the link to Joseph Smith's patriarchal blessing, given to him by his father http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1834/2

Part of it says: "Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer Come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen"

There is even a book made up of patriarchal blessings from the early days of the church
https://www.amazon.com/Patriarchal-Bles ... +blessings

In the synopsis it says: "Contained in this volume are 755 blessings from 1833 through 1845 delivered by the church's first oracles, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, and William Smith. Prominent in these blessings is the promise that the reciepeints will live to witness the Second Coming, together with other period-specific expectations and doctrinally based beliefs. "

Why do I bring this up?
Your wife believes she has received revelation and she is acting on it. This is exactly what we are taught to do in church. She has received the same kind of revelation that prophets, patriarchs, and other worthy priesthood holders have been receiving since the church's inception, which is: you're going to be alive during the 2nd Coming so be prepared.

If you are going to understand why your wife's revelation is "wrong", then you should probably start with understanding why so many patriarchal blessings since pioneer days have been "wrong", too. It is entirely possible that the whole dreamer crowd is getting the same type of "revelation" as Joseph Smith got in his own patriarchal blessing.

Just look at some of the many revelations through Joseph Smith about how imminent Christ's coming was supposed to be:
23 And again, it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water, ye shall lay your hands, and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and shall be looking forth for the signs of my coming, and shall know me.
Behold, I come quickly. Even so. Amen.

27 Fear not, little flock, the kingdom is yours until I come. Behold, I come quickly. Even so. Amen.

6 To lift up your voice as with the sound of a trump, both long and loud, and cry repentance unto a crooked and perverse generation, preparing the way of the Lord for his second coming.

7 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, the time is soon at hand that I shall come in a cloud with power and great glory.


These types of scriptures are all throughout the D&C. My point is: There is no doubt that the early saints believed they'd see the 2nd Coming - it was in their patriarchal blessings, it came in revelations through the anointed prophet, and they were witnessing signs with having wars and being persecuted, etc.
And yet...it didn't happen. Does anyone doubt Joseph Smith's revelations? People say the "Julie Rowes" are false prophets because obviously her prophecies haven't come to pass - but these ones haven't for Joseph Smith, either. How can you say Julie Rowe is false but then not say the same thing for Joseph Smith and all the patriarchal blessings given through his dad and Hyrum and others?

Have you considered that your wife really is getting "revelation", the same type of "revelation" as our pioneer saints? You believe your wife is wrong and it turns out that Joseph Smith and the patriarchs of his time were "wrong", too. So imo, the question to ask isn't "How do I convince my wife that the church is right and the Julie Rowes are wrong?" A more productive question would be "Why have members been getting authentic revelation, including Joseph Smith and early patriarchs, that all warn about being alive during the 2nd Coming and then don't come true?"

There is something incorrect in our understanding of the 2nd Coming and/or in our understanding of how we receive revelation because, as a church, we have been receiving "wrong" revelations about it since Joseph Smith.

From what I understand, the Second Coming is going to happen at least 3 times that we know of - once to the faithful at Adam-Ondi-Ahman and the New Jerusalem in Mo., once to the Jews at the end of the War of Armageddon, and lastly to the entire world at the time of the burning. All these people who were told they would be alive during the Second Coming will probably be resurrected and or translated and allowed to be dwelling and working with the Saints in Zion at the time of the first Second Coming of the Lord and will be able to witness this event while living on the earth. God doesn't lie to people. We just misunderstand sometimes what He is saying to us.

[Gage]

It really is a shame that a few people out to get gain and profit off selling books could deceive otherwise faithful good saints. I have never read any of the books but I hear people mention a call out and tent cities. I assume they are telling people that a horn will blow and saints are to trek it out to Zion to be saved. This type of thing leads saints to stop doing what they should be dong to be "saved" and instead thinking all they need to do is have their camping supplies ready and at the door. While we all need to have emergency supplies at home, having all this at the front door ready to go to be called out is not what is going to determine if you will be safe or not. How you are living your life today will determine where you end up. "Zion" is a pure heart. Running to a place called Zion and huddling up in a tent is not going to save you from God's wrath. Your rightesnous is the only thing that can save you from God's wrath. People think that just being a Mormon is all they need to be saved from all the doom. They will call all of the Mormons out and we will be fine and protected. Nonsense. The Lord is actually going to change the name of his church because of the disgust he will have with the "Mormons." All the doom is actually going to begin with the Mormons and in his house. We need to be worried about living the Gospel, not lying to get a temple reccomend (as these people will be the first to burn), living the commandments and so forth not worrying about what Julie Rowe tells you to do. The Lord does not talk to these people. The Lord would never tell anyone other than the prophet to warn us of anything.

[lone-knight]

I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion that has been happening here. This is the exact reason that I have started this thread. I have some questions that I'd like to put out there for us to think about and discuss, always related to the OP. I have shared some of my story, so hopefully that has provided context. There have been a few lines that my wife has posed that I am not sure how to reply. Here are a few:

- There are 800-5000 (depends on the conversation) LDS people that are all feeling this urgency and the necessity . Doesn't this prove that the tent city thing is real?

- JR, HS, Spencer, et al., may have been wrong about their timing, but that doesn't mean they are wrong about the events...

- (after seeking a priesthood blessing from someone else) I need to get a blessing from ________ because the last blessing said that I had so much time and I'm not sure if I'm going to get another opportunity...

[EmmaLee]

I have heard many times (sorry, don't have any sources handy) that the 2nd Coming actually started with the First Vision Joseph had in the Sacred Grove in the spring of 1820. That was the 1st appearance - one of many - that would comprise what we call the "2nd Coming". Which, if true, would go a long way in explaining why people have been told, ever since then, that they would be alive at the 2nd Coming - because, they were. Anyone born from 1820 onward would, technically, "be alive" to see the 2nd Coming.

[brianj]

It really is a shame that a few people out to get gain and profit off selling books could deceive otherwise faithful good saints. I have never read any of the books but I hear people mention a call out and tent cities. I assume they are telling people that a horn will blow and saints are to trek it out to Zion to be saved. This type of thing leads saints to stop doing what they should be dong to be "saved" and instead thinking all they need to do is have their camping supplies ready and at the door. While we all need to have emergency supplies at home, having all this at the front door ready to go to be called out is not what is going to determine if you will be safe or not. How you are living your life today will determine where you end up. "Zion" is a pure heart. Running to a place called Zion and huddling up in a tent is not going to save you from God's wrath. Your rightesnous is the only thing that can save you from God's wrath. People think that just being a Mormon is all they need to be saved from all the doom. They will call all of the Mormons out and we will be fine and protected. Nonsense. The Lord is actually going to change the name of his church because of the disgust he will have with the "Mormons." All the doom is actually going to begin with the Mormons and in his house. We need to be worried about living the Gospel, not lying to get a temple reccomend (as these people will be the first to burn), living the commandments and so forth not worrying about what Julie Rowe tells you to do. The Lord does not talk to these people. The Lord would never tell anyone other than the prophet to warn us of anything.

I believe that your conclusion that such teachings leads saints to stop doing what they should be doing only applies to slothful and lazy saints.
I heard from someone recently who described a modern day Zoramite, using her chair in Gospel Doctrine class as a rameumptom to proclaim how grateful she is that God hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by His wrath down to hell. I've heard from others who misunderstand D&C 132 to the point where they are convinced that since they were sealed in a temple, and they felt the Spirit during that sealing, they are sealed up for exaltation and it doesn't matter what they do in this life. But the number of people in these two categories is dwarfed by the number of people who have a very casual attitude toward their religion, who come to church on Sunday and think they are hearing good teachings but don't bother applying those teachings in their lives.

I expect many of you to disagree with me, but I believe that the people who are using latter-day dreamers as an excuse to ignore the commandments would find some other excuse if they hadn't come across the dreamers.

I also believe that an important part of your righteousness saving you from God's wrath is obediently doing what the Holy Ghost and church leaders counsel. If, as happened several times in the scriptures, there really will be a gathering at the beginning of the tribulations and someone ignores guidance to flee to a place of refuge before their current environment becomes unsafe and they ignore that buidance, they have little claim on divine aid for help when they rejected preemptive help.

[Sarah]

I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion that has been happening here. This is the exact reason that I have started this thread. I have some questions that I'd like to put out there for us to think about and discuss, always related to the OP. I have shared some of my story, so hopefully that has provided context. There have been a few lines that my wife has posed that I am not sure how to reply. Here are a few:

- There are 800-5000 (depends on the conversation) LDS people that are all feeling this urgency and the necessity . Doesn't this prove that the tent city thing is real?

- JR, HS, Spencer, et al., may have been wrong about their timing, but that doesn't mean they are wrong about the events...

- (after seeking a priesthood blessing from someone else) I need to get a blessing from ________ because the last blessing said that I had so much time and I'm not sure if I'm going to get another opportunity...

I wouldn't even bother trying to convince her that the tent-city scenario won't happen. I think you can acknowledge that even if it happens someday, we don't know when it will happen, and so we also need to live and plan for it not happening anytime soon. I would just try to compromise until she calms down.

Are you both going out on dates and doing fun things together? You could try to distract her by helping her enjoy just being with you, doing something fun. If all she wants to talk about is end-days stuff on your dates, talk about it briefly, then try to talk about something else.

As for those who predict timing - it is one thing for someone to put forth their best guess a time or two, but both Julie and Hector repeatedly assured their readers that they knew certain events would happen at certain times. And all their predictions failed. I gave you a link a few months ago for something I wrote up detailing the evidence I found against Julie on the AVOW forum. Try having your wife read this: http://www.docdroid.net/negu/red-flags.odt.html

I'm dealing with someone in my life right now that is really trying my patience and so I can understand to a degree what you are going through. The Lord uses the word "pity" to describe how he feels about us, and I think that is a good way we can look at those who we have trouble with. We can show forth compassion, sympathy, and "pity," as we patiently wait for them to mature. Some may never change, but we will have grown in the process of letting others test us as we pass the test.

[DesertWonderer]

I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion that has been happening here. This is the exact reason that I have started this thread. I have some questions that I'd like to put out there for us to think about and discuss, always related to the OP. I have shared some of my story, so hopefully that has provided context. There have been a few lines that my wife has posed that I am not sure how to reply. Here are a few:

- There are 800-5000 (depends on the conversation) LDS people that are all feeling this urgency and the necessity . Doesn't this prove that the tent city thing is real? 800-5000 LDS people a year commit adultery. Does that mean it's a good thing? No ordained leader of the church has ever said anything about tent-cities--it's a philosophy of men.

- JR, HS, Spencer, et al., may have been wrong about their timing, but that doesn't mean they are wrong about the events...They received the timing of the events from the same vision / spirit that showed them the events. The timing is wrong and therefore the events shown were false too.

- (after seeking a priesthood blessing from someone else) I need to get a blessing from ________ because the last blessing said that I had so much time and I'm not sure if I'm going to get another opportunity...I'm not totally clear what you mean here but I'll take a stab at it anyway...You should find out from whom she will be requesting the blessing and go to them and explain the situation. With the proper background, hopefully they will understand what not to do and what to do in this situation (i.e. suggest she go seek counseling). You could also show her the quote from the apostle (sorry can't remember who said it) that one blessing is enough.

[brlenox]

I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion that has been happening here. This is the exact reason that I have started this thread. I have some questions that I'd like to put out there for us to think about and discuss, always related to the OP. I have shared some of my story, so hopefully that has provided context. There have been a few lines that my wife has posed that I am not sure how to reply. Here are a few:

- There are 800-5000 (depends on the conversation) LDS people that are all feeling this urgency and the necessity . Doesn't this prove that the tent city thing is real?

From the broadcast Israel, Israel God is Calling - Jeffrey R. Holland:

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... g?lang=eng

For tonight’s purpose I remind you of one last flight, the flight for which our hymn tonight was actually written. It was our own Church, led by our own prophets, leading our own religious ancestors. With Joseph Smith being hounded through the states of New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Missouri, and finally being murdered in Illinois, we were to see the latter-day reenactment of Israel’s children again seeking for a place of seclusion.

Brigham Young, the American Moses, as he has been admiringly called, led the Saints to the valleys of the mountains as those foot-weary Saints sang:
We’ll find the place which God for us prepared,
Far away in the West,
Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;
There the Saints will be blessed. 10

Zion. The promised land. The New Jerusalem. Where is it? Well, we are not sure, but we will find it. For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls.

Until now. Until tonight. Until this our day. Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.” 11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.

[BackBlast]

I would like to point out that there does not need to be a conflict between

- There are 800-5000 (depends on the conversation) LDS people that are all feeling this urgency and the necessity . Doesn't this prove that the tent city thing is real?

and

...
as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay"
....
In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running.
...

He does not say every member will always stay where they are. This is general council, not specific or individual council. The scriptures are full of individuals and groups being removed and relocated for various purposes despite differing general injunctions on the rest of those people. It wasn't for everyone at Jerusalem to go to America when Lehi left, there remained other righteous people there.

The important question is, what does the Lord want of me and my house? And staying put, relocation, a refuge, a tent, the in-laws house, abject homelessness, or sickness and death may be part of your individual plan. Any route the Lord has in mind for you will refine you, help you, and redeem if you if you are willing.

I have seen some things, I have my own dreams, visions, promises, messages and comforts granted to me.

In my view. I believe that a majority of saints will remain in place and Elder Holland's remarks are 100% accurate. The majority of saints will also endure great hardship from the scourge for our general disobedience and that we may be made pure, as a group, and become acceptable to the Lord. If you wish to avoid the hardest parts of the scourge, it has less to do with a potential relocation than already being righteous and not needing it to humble and refine you. If you do need this refining, accept it, let it bring you low in humility and repentance. Rejoice in a Lord who knows you personally and individually to take such care and attention to your personal growth and salvation.

Some people will be relocated, in the time and at the will of the Lord. I have learned for myself that I will be one of those, I was told some things to prepare for it, and that I need to do it. I do not know where or how or when or why. I have personal speculations but I've learned not to hold onto those very tightly. I also know that some of my family will die, and it is for the salvation of my family. This path is right for me and mine, and will give us collectively the greatest eternal benefits. The death(s) will cause me great sorrow and hardship but I was given the why of that and was given promises of the comforts that would follow to help me.

Because I have learned these things for myself, for my personal path, I believe that the Lord will do so for every saint so inclined to know for themselves. I do not have it all spelled out, but I have a few of the important steps illuminated before me. Which is the right of every head of household to know for his own family. When you open that conduit for personal revelation and direction, you will cease to be agitated by the unease and speculations by fellow saints. Show forth your faith and build upon the rock and then let the storms come, beat and howl.

[brianj]

I wouldn't even bother trying to convince her that the tent-city scenario won't happen. I think you can acknowledge that even if it happens someday, we don't know when it will happen, and so we also need to live and plan for it not happening anytime soon. I would just try to compromise until she calms down.

This!

I do believe that a gathering will happen, and I have believed this long before I heard anybody claim to dream about it. But preparing for a gathering needs to be done exactly the same as preparing for a tornado or earthquake. If you decide there's nothing to worry about until Doppler radar shows a hook echo or you hear a disconcerting low rumbling, you will find the time for preparation has passed. But if you stop doing everything and hide in your safe room you'll find the stored food runs out as quickly as your money runs out, and you'll find your house being foreclosed on.

I did listen to one of the dreamers claiming to have foreseen a gathering to communities living in tents. (S)he explicitly said that while we should prepare, we should not fear and we shouldn't do anything until we receive word from priesthood leaders. Since then I've heard of people who listened to the same message panic buying food storage and moving to small mountain communities to be prepositioned and have a nice home to live in while everyone else is living in tents. This is, as Elder Cook said and I'll bet the dreamer I listened to would agree, looking beyond the mark.

[Gage]

The problem with following these "self proclaimed prophets" is that you are waiting on things to happen as they say they are going to happen. It would not surprise me at all if some saints will be in the midst of Christ and not believe it because Julie Rowe said they would be in tents first. People are leading themselves to their own doom by following these "false prophets". It will be like a "thief in the night" for some because they will still be looking for the signs that Julie Rowe told them of.