A message I was asked to share

[shadow]

I have 5 of those ^^^ so I guess I'm a polygamist.

[Rose Garden]

Yes my experiences are weird - just as weird as Lehi's / Nephi's dreams read to me, just as weird as Joseph Smith's weird experiences sound to me... let me pull out my scriptures and we will talk about "WEIRD" experiences. Of course it's weird - we are used to correlated thinking in this completely different "fallen world" that looks nothing like the spiritual world. We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons; we believe the organization with paperwork and a building in front of us. If we actually believed our scriptures, we would be EXPECTING the things in them to be happening every day - including the weird things the prophets discuss in their encounters with God and Jesus Christ and angels and beings. Look at the craziness King Lamoni an his wife went through receiving the Second Comforter. Let's talk about the energy Nephi zapped Laman and lemuel with. Let's talk about the energy and powers that are discussed concerning the Arc of the Covenant. Let's talk about weird.... If a little weird and uncomfortable is too much for you, then I'm truly sorry for you - I'm pretty certain everyone who has had these experiences beyond the veil would classify them as "weird" compared to this world. (Do we seriously expect things NOT to look like the crazy scriptural examples when they happen?) YES - things you have not learned about yet or experienced yet are weird. I remember when I learned how babies are made... when I was age 4.... talk about WEIRD AND HORRIBLE in my 4 year old mind.

Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society on April 28, 1842 and also spoke this at a sermon in Nauvoo on May 1, 1842, and he states that "there was another dimension for determining weather manifestations and revelations approved by God".

So maybe you DO have to get out of the box a little if there is another dimension for doing that - one you might need to be quickened to - that is NOT like this one. So that's all the defending of my experiences I'll do - I don't actually care what LDSFF people think of me. The whole point was to post the message I was asked to share, and I hope that part is what people will pay attention to.

In case the MESSAGE of the post was missed, it is this:

**** Become quickened (and yes it's weird - here's a little info on some ways to help with that), receive the pure Love of Christ as you receive your own Second Comforter relationship with the Lord, and spread the pure Love of Christ you receive. ****

I'm truly sorry if that is offensive to some, but THAT is the whole point - in case the "weird" was too distracting for you.

Thanks for all the comments - I'm glad this was helpful and useful for some of you, and I also appreciate those comments that give me an understanding of why people are so uncomfortable receiving the things that we learned in church and in the temple, we can receive. It is all helpful to me in my own journey - including the challenge of coming to the snake pit to post this.

Ouch.

[ebenezerarise]

Um....nevermind.

To me, this just makes me sad.

[KerriM]

Here are some nuggets worth re-reading or maybe just reading for those who didn't read it all. It's from the end of Jules' blog post.

There is SO MUCH that can be done – no matter your own situation. Start with your own home and create Zion there if you can’t find any enemies outside your house. Most of us have plenty of family healing and forgiveness projects we’ve tucked away on dusty shelves. You will KNOW if you have created Zion and it will FIRST happen with those prominent characters in your own life story. The kind of harmony, and spiritual communication, and love, and connection, and bonding, and cooperation, and forgiveness, and spiritual abundance that comes from a family “sealed by God”, is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before the Lord taught me (the hard way of course – as my stubborn nature tends to require) about what this “looks” like, and he taught me how to “build” this “Zion” from the inside out.

Heal relationships with your family members, and realize that these contentions are forgivable and were created to drive us and pit us against each other. Look inside yourself at the things, and people, and conditions that disgust you; THOSE are the relationships you are responsible for healing. Find those things you dislike enough, that you are willing to “condescend” the way the Savior did and does for us, and immerse yourself in connecting, and understanding, and feeling, and helping your fellow humans not drown in this cesspool we have all created and all live in together. Realize too, that we ARE all in the same cesspool and that other person’s corner is no more dirty than your own.

Consider helping others their way; providing their needs and wants, not your judgments upon them, or your unsolicited counsel about their situation you don’t understand. You have no idea why that homeless person is homeless, and what they have been through. Consider that it may be none of your business, and your business is to love one another. This kind of Christ behavior in our own homes alone, would be enough to heal this entire area of the conditions we are in, and the potential consequences of our “fallen state”. This kind of harmonious behavior will also help quicken the conditions of our homes that will allow us to receive the Lord as we become more like him on a daily basis and out of habit.

[brlenox]

Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society on April 28, 1842 and also spoke this at a sermon in Nauvoo on May 1, 1842, and he states that "there was another dimension for determining weather manifestations and revelations approved by God".

Jules...it's been so long. I see you have been advancing the cause. It's kind of ironic that several years ago I used to take such heat from you and your group that reigned here on LDSFF. In those days you might have posted such a thing as what you have posted and you would have been extolled as a visionary and an ICON of truth.

Interesting how things can change. It would seem that many here recognize that what you have written falls outside the bounds of the things of God. Not just by content, heck from the right venue the content doesn't trouble me...that much. I fully except that there is so very much that we have no comprehension of and so much would be foreign to our limited understandings. However, every one that has rejected your material has done so for several reasons. Some it doesn't feel right, some ... it's the messenger...and for myself that is certainly a biggie, however another subtle little oversight on your part caught my eye.

I'm pretty familiar with an awful lot of what Joseph Smith said and the quote you provided above didn't set well with me. In a way it becomes part of an appeal to authority which is a common logical fallacy. The essence being that you claimed an authority said something and linking that to your material adds legitimacy. Now I'd be the last guy to fault you from using quotes from a general authority, especially from Joseph Smith, I have always based practically all of my material on sustainment from general authorities - because frankly I'm not an adequate witness of certain things and linking observations to a legitimate witness strengthens the case and should encourage others to ponder over the material with more interest. It is never wise to ignore legitimate witnesses. However, you have done that for as long as I have known you.

However, I have never caught you making up quotes to support a misguided direction until now. More amazing is you had to doctor it up to make it seem legitimate and that was an intentional act of pure deception - drawing upon the authority of Joseph Smith because you knew you had no actual authority to back up your material. Why did you have to create a false quote to support your direction? For me when I notice certain types of deception it undermines everything else that the speaker says. Thus you have undermined your source of your "vision" as being holy and have shaded it in deception.

It is not that your quote does not exist in terms of the words you used - like I said you had to doctor something up and then twist the meaning to force it to seeming truth.

I happen to be looking at the actual quote this very minute. It is found in the book, "The Words of Joseph Smith" page 20 in footnote 21. It is a long footnote so I am only going to copy the part that is germane to your deception. It states:

…On the banks of the Susquehanna River, Michael appeared to intervene and detect the devil when he appeared as an angel of light (D&C 128:20), indicating another dimension to this question of detection. Because the adversary apparently can take light and truth away from the disobedient (D&C 93:39), he can attempt to pass as an angel of glory (2 Corinthians 11:14; D&C 129:8; Moses 1:2, 9, 11-25). As indicated in this discourse, Joseph Smith therefore revealed additional keys of detection. Far from saying that when the instructions of this discourse were followed, the adversary's only recourse was to attempt to return the handshake, in a December 1840 discourse Joseph says, "The Devil . . . will either shrink back ... or offer his hand." He will not remain absolutely still if he is tested. On 28 April 1842, the Prophet revealed to the Relief Society, and on 1 May 1842 to the Nauvoo populace, that there was another dimension for determining whether manifestations and revelations were approved by God. There were "keys of the kingdom," he said to a Sunday audience of the saints in the Grove, "certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed....(Words of Joseph Smith, Ehat and Cook, page 20)

The footnote is actually a commentary of some of Joseph's statements and the words of the commentary are actually either Andrew F. Ehat's or Lyndon W. Cook's who were the editors of the material. The underlined part is actually their commentary and it simply is using the word dimension to describe an alternate perspective on the subject that Joseph is commenting too. If it helps here is all of the common definitions that can be drawn from the word: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dimension . In other words, Ehat or Cook thought there were multiple dimensions as in means of expansion on the subject that Joseph was referring too. You have wrested the meaning to imply that Joseph is speaking to dimensions as in alternative places in the space time continuum - Einstein would be proud of your efforts.

However, since I can't find a digital source for a cut and paste, I am of the opinion that you actually typed the quote. If this is true then you had to add the quote marks and change the words to make it appear they are Joseph's, then you had to misspell "whether" as "weather" and you left the word "were" out all together in the tail end of the statement.

If you did hand type this in, this is indeed subtle deception, very subtle.

I once wrote a post where I stated something to the effect that you were going to think what I had done in the post was very funny and would leave you laughing for days....or something like that, I can't remember exactly. However, you know what...I think this post of yours tops mine by a mile for it's potential to strike a humorous chord. When you read the portion of the commentary from Ehat and Cook that I provided it is clear what the subject matter is. If you bother to look up the entirety of the footnote you will find it is over a page long and goes into far more detail about the subject. In case it is not obvious, it is about how to detect the devil or other false spirits and to "know the difference between a true spirit and an evil spirit." (quote attributed to Ehat or Cook)

Anyone who want's to can actually verify my source as the Words of Joseph Smith is found online in a couple of places. One is here:

https://archive.org/stream/TheWordsOfJo ... h_djvu.txt

Just search on the phrase "dimension for determining" and it will take you to the appropriate footnote and all can read for themselves.

Jules, if you did actually find this quote somewhere where you actually cut and pasted from then a link or such would partially exonerate you. At present I have taken a screen shot of the results from Google and it only shows up on LDSFF in your post.

Frankly, I think you need to reread the entire section, it is very illuminating and if only you had known how to detect false spirits it could have saved you a lot of time...I mean a LOT of time, writing out your treatise on the other dimensions you have encountered.

[BeNotDeceived]

I read the link.
That's a few minutes of my life I'll never get back.

True, but now you have another story to tell.

[brlenox]

Thanks for posting. Not the easiest crowd.

Jules: When I started reading your experience I failed to look ahead to see how long it was. It definitely held my attention for the major part of an hour. The reason I kept going is because, unlike some of the above posters, the Holy Spirit signified to me that what you experienced was of God.

I quickly forwarded it to my daughter. After reading it she told me she felt the same good feelings concerning it. Please continue to cast your pearls
as there are some of us very eager to obtain knowledge.

ps. (Which is often hard to find lately on LDSFF because of the naysayers.)

I think each of you misunderstand the response of the "naysayers" and it is tragic as it speaks to a potential flaw in your own capacity to sort through information and detect the things of God. Joseph Smith once stated, and yes this is an actual Joseph Smith Quote:

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. ...

...A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects.

Nonetheless lacking specific knowledge of how to try the spirits and to exercise the gift of discernment James E. Faust cautions:

We all have an inner braking system that will stop us before we follow Satan too far down the wrong road. It is the still, small voice which is within us. But once we have succumbed, the braking system begins to leak brake fluid and our stopping mechanism becomes weak and ineffective.(Faust, James E., The Great Imitator” October 1987 General Conference)

Further he remarks and warns of a coming day when things would become much worse - He is making these statements in 1987:

I think we will witness increasing evidence of Satan’s power as the kingdom of God grows stronger. I believe Satan’s ever-expanding efforts are some proof of the truthfulness of this work. In the future the opposition will be both more subtle and more open. It will be masked in greater sophistication and cunning, but it will also be more blatant. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all of the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. But the disappointments and setbacks to the work of God will be temporary, for the work will go forward (see D&C 65:2).(Faust, James E., The Great Imitator” October 1987 General Conference)

By the way these are actual quotes. I did not have to fabricate anything: You can verify if you wish by going to this link:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

People who share material such as was provided in the OP are one in a long line of Hiram Page's. To which Joseph commented:

...it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.” (History of the Church, 1:338.)

Finally, in 1913 the First Presidency provided this clear and concise guidance which proves to possess such clarity as to appear to be speaking precisely concerning this thread on this forum:

From the days of Hiram Page (Doc. and Cov., Sec. 28), at different periods there have been manifestations from delusive spirits to members of the Church. Sometimes these have come to the men and women who because of transgression became easy prey to the Arch-Deceiver. At other times people who pride themselves on their strict observance of the rules and ordinances and ceremonies of the Church are led astray by false spirits, who exercise an influence so imitative of that which proceeds from a Divine source that even these persons, who think they are ‘the very elect,’ find it difficult to discern the essential difference. Satan himself has transformed himself to be apparently ‘an angel of light.’

“When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration, convey something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. Also, they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head. All faithful members are entitled to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for themselves, their families, and for those over whom they are appointed and ordained to preside. But anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable. In secular as well as spiritual affairs, Saints may receive Divine guidance and revelation affecting themselves, but this does not convey authority to direct others, and is not to be accepted when contrary to Church covenants, doctrine or discipline, or to known facts, demonstrated truths, or good common sense. … (Official statement by the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 1913)

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

alaris, it is not being a "tough crowd" to respond negatively when the core of your being recoils at words of false direction. Even the Ammonites bound Korihor and removed him from their midst for his efforts to deceive - that's a tough crowd, but one I sustain in total agreement.

leisure_59 - recommunicate with your daughter warn her that you have both been deceived. These last days are going to be full of such deception and as Joseph warns we must be able to understand the designs and patterns of the adversary if we are going to be successful in keeping ourselves from being lead astray.

[lone-knight]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

[Onsdag]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

Don't worry, I'll thank him for you.

[Gage]

We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons;


I actually do believe every story in the scriptures and do not think they are crazy at all. I believe every Prophet was called of GOD in the scriptures and I believe he spoke to every single one of them that said he spoke to them. I also believe the Prophet that lives today, and if the prophet that lives today told me that he spoke to Jesus Christ I would absolutely believe him. If he told me I need to pack my things and move to safety, an earthquake is coming, I would pack my things that very minute. Do I believe you or the Julie Rowe's of the world (that post their experiences on Message Boards to get praise or money) speak to the Lord, no I absolutely do not. Some of you post these experiences like its nothing more than going to the mall. You are doing a disservice to other members who may be gullible enough to believe you (because they dont read their scriptures to know better) and can hurt their testimonies. They wonder why the Lord is not talking to them or why angels are not showing them around, and they may think are unworthy. It also leads others to post the same kind of experiences because they see the attention you get and they want that.

[Kitkat]

We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons;


I actually do believe every story in the scriptures and do not think they are crazy at all. I believe every Prophet was called of GOD in the scriptures and I believe he spoke to every single one of them that said he spoke to them. I also believe the Prophet that lives today, and if the prophet that lives today told me that he spoke to Jesus Christ I would absolutely believe him. If he told me I need to pack my things and move to safety, an earthquake is coming, I would pack my things that very minute. Do I believe you or the Julie Rowe's of the world (that post their experiences on Message Boards to get praise or money) speak to the Lord, no I absolutely do not. Some of you post these experiences like its nothing more than going to the mall. You are doing a disservice to other members who may be gullible enough to believe you (because they dont read their scriptures to know better) and can hurt their testimonies. They wonder why the Lord is not talking to them or why angels are not showing them around, and they may think are unworthy. It also leads others to post the same kind of experiences because they see the attention you get and they want that.

Honestly. Do you believe the prophet that lives today because of your birth into the church or otherwise? Why do you believe the "living" prophet? What are your reasons? Warm fuzzies? Would we have believed Lehi, Samuel, even Christ? who did not teach within the churches ordained priesthood?

This isn't meant to insult. I sincerely want to know why you believe, as it is EASY TO BELIEVE being a member of the church and oft much more difficult to repent of unbelief.

[Rose Garden]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

Your wife and her mental illness?

[DesertWonderer]

Yes my experiences are weird - just as weird as Lehi's / Nephi's dreams read to me, just as weird as Joseph Smith's weird experiences sound to me... let me pull out my scriptures and we will talk about "WEIRD" experiences. Of course it's weird - we are used to correlated thinking in this completely different "fallen world" that looks nothing like the spiritual world. We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons; we believe the organization with paperwork and a building in front of us. If we actually believed our scriptures, we would be EXPECTING the things in them to be happening every day - including the weird things the prophets discuss in their encounters with God and Jesus Christ and angels and beings. Look at the craziness King Lamoni an his wife went through receiving the Second Comforter. Let's talk about the energy Nephi zapped Laman and lemuel with. Let's talk about the energy and powers that are discussed concerning the Arc of the Covenant. Let's talk about weird.... If a little weird and uncomfortable is too much for you, then I'm truly sorry for you - I'm pretty certain everyone who has had these experiences beyond the veil would classify them as "weird" compared to this world. (Do we seriously expect things NOT to look like the crazy scriptural examples when they happen?) YES - things you have not learned about yet or experienced yet are weird. I remember when I learned how babies are made... when I was age 4.... talk about WEIRD AND HORRIBLE in my 4 year old mind.

Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society on April 28, 1842 and also spoke this at a sermon in Nauvoo on May 1, 1842, and he states that "there was another dimension for determining weather manifestations and revelations approved by God".

So maybe you DO have to get out of the box a little if there is another dimension for doing that - one you might need to be quickened to - that is NOT like this one. So that's all the defending of my experiences I'll do - I don't actually care what LDSFF people think of me. The whole point was to post the message I was asked to share, and I hope that part is what people will pay attention to.

In case the MESSAGE of the post was missed, it is this:

**** Become quickened (and yes it's weird - here's a little info on some ways to help with that), receive the pure Love of Christ as you receive your own Second Comforter relationship with the Lord, and spread the pure Love of Christ you receive. ****

I'm truly sorry if that is offensive to some, but THAT is the whole point - in case the "weird" was too distracting for you.

Thanks for all the comments - I'm glad this was helpful and useful for some of you, and I also appreciate those comments that give me an understanding of why people are so uncomfortable receiving the things that we learned in church and in the temple, we can receive. It is all helpful to me in my own journey - including the challenge of coming to the snake pit to post this.

Ouch.

Ouch? Not really as her entire response was based on a false premise.

[Rose Garden]

Yes my experiences are weird - just as weird as Lehi's / Nephi's dreams read to me, just as weird as Joseph Smith's weird experiences sound to me... let me pull out my scriptures and we will talk about "WEIRD" experiences. Of course it's weird - we are used to correlated thinking in this completely different "fallen world" that looks nothing like the spiritual world. We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons; we believe the organization with paperwork and a building in front of us. If we actually believed our scriptures, we would be EXPECTING the things in them to be happening every day - including the weird things the prophets discuss in their encounters with God and Jesus Christ and angels and beings. Look at the craziness King Lamoni an his wife went through receiving the Second Comforter. Let's talk about the energy Nephi zapped Laman and lemuel with. Let's talk about the energy and powers that are discussed concerning the Arc of the Covenant. Let's talk about weird.... If a little weird and uncomfortable is too much for you, then I'm truly sorry for you - I'm pretty certain everyone who has had these experiences beyond the veil would classify them as "weird" compared to this world. (Do we seriously expect things NOT to look like the crazy scriptural examples when they happen?) YES - things you have not learned about yet or experienced yet are weird. I remember when I learned how babies are made... when I was age 4.... talk about WEIRD AND HORRIBLE in my 4 year old mind.

Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society on April 28, 1842 and also spoke this at a sermon in Nauvoo on May 1, 1842, and he states that "there was another dimension for determining weather manifestations and revelations approved by God".

So maybe you DO have to get out of the box a little if there is another dimension for doing that - one you might need to be quickened to - that is NOT like this one. So that's all the defending of my experiences I'll do - I don't actually care what LDSFF people think of me. The whole point was to post the message I was asked to share, and I hope that part is what people will pay attention to.

In case the MESSAGE of the post was missed, it is this:

**** Become quickened (and yes it's weird - here's a little info on some ways to help with that), receive the pure Love of Christ as you receive your own Second Comforter relationship with the Lord, and spread the pure Love of Christ you receive. ****

I'm truly sorry if that is offensive to some, but THAT is the whole point - in case the "weird" was too distracting for you.

Thanks for all the comments - I'm glad this was helpful and useful for some of you, and I also appreciate those comments that give me an understanding of why people are so uncomfortable receiving the things that we learned in church and in the temple, we can receive. It is all helpful to me in my own journey - including the challenge of coming to the snake pit to post this.

Ouch.

Ouch? Not really as her entire response was based on a false premise.

I probably should have highlighted. It's the comment about the snake pit. Ouch.

[DesertWonderer]

We don't actually believe the crazy stories in the scriptures - we regard them as fairy tales with lessons;


I actually do believe every story in the scriptures and do not think they are crazy at all. I believe every Prophet was called of GOD in the scriptures and I believe he spoke to every single one of them that said he spoke to them. I also believe the Prophet that lives today, and if the prophet that lives today told me that he spoke to Jesus Christ I would absolutely believe him. If he told me I need to pack my things and move to safety, an earthquake is coming, I would pack my things that very minute. Do I believe you or the Julie Rowe's of the world (that post their experiences on Message Boards to get praise or money) speak to the Lord, no I absolutely do not. Some of you post these experiences like its nothing more than going to the mall. You are doing a disservice to other members who may be gullible enough to believe you (because they dont read their scriptures to know better) and can hurt their testimonies. They wonder why the Lord is not talking to them or why angels are not showing them around, and they may think are unworthy. It also leads others to post the same kind of experiences because they see the attention you get and they want that.

Honestly. Do you believe the prophet that lives today because of your birth into the church or otherwise? No; b/c of the witness that I have received from the HG that he is The prophet. Why do you believe the "living" prophet? See previous answer. What are your reasons? Warm fuzzies? Would we have believed Lehi, Samuel, even Christ? I'm quite sure I would. who did not teach within the churches ordained priesthood. I LOVE it when you Snuffer / Remnant / anti-LDSites use this argument--You have no idea if Lehi or Samuel were outside the organization of the church. It is a complete logical fallacy to assume that b/c they weren't mentioned, as being such, that they weren't. Ha! Snuffer knows this, being trained as a lawyer and logic, but tells you it and you believe him. Awesome. As far as Christ, yes he was from outside the organized church b/c it was in apostasy. duh.

This isn't meant to insult. I sincerely want to know why you believe, as it is EASY TO BELIEVE being a member of the church and oft much more difficult to repent of unbelief. Sorry don't understand this sentence. If you'd like to clarify, I'd be happy to comment on it too.

:ymhug:

[lone-knight]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

Your wife and her mental illness?

I discussed it here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42811&start=120. It has been terrible for my family of 4 kids.

[Rose Garden]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

Your wife and her mental illness?

I discussed it here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42811&start=120. It has been terrible for my family of 4 kids.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. The way it was worded it sort of sounded like Jules was your wife . . .

PM me if you want any suggestions for help from a recovering mentally ill wife (me).

[brlenox]

Read the warning carefully, In 1913 the truths of those who claim to be "the very elect" were known to have potential to be sourced from Satan and his minions. It is most prescient and consistent that truth then is truth now. Satan's tactics do not change much.

My only regret is that I can't thank you more than once! I really appreciate the direct and reasoned approach. Especially with the accompanying kindness. While I know that it won't make much difference with my wife and her mental illness - it is nice to see supporting references from general authorities, for the feelings of my heart. I tend to operate on intuition a lot and can't always tell specifics of why things feel off.

You actually have no idea how amazing it is to receive thanks such as yours and those others that responded to these posts. I have been on LDSFF for years, showing up maybe a year or so before the Denver Snuffer excommunication. I and others were very vocal in denouncing what was then the dominating group, several of which were part of the admin staff and very supportive of the DS movement. I was constantly reprimanded for the sharpness of my posts and maybe there was an edge to them that has softened just a hint. I was completely banned for a bit until a number of the TBM posters wrote to Brian and complained of my being banned. He kindly reinstated me. I received a lot of support in the form of PM's but I took a ton of heat from the DS crowd but I felt like their articulate and persuasive material had to be countered with at least my weak efforts of being articulate and persuasive and supportive of the Church leaders, the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

In those days I had no idea that LDSFF could ever be free from the taint that pervaded every nook and cranny. However, it almost feels like a small victory to note that except for a couple of sympathetic types this place is not near what it was. Most of those who complained against the prophets and put down the church have left and while they may think otherwise, I think over time they couldn't tolerate the testimonies of those who hung on during those years.

So to you and all who sustain the church and its leaders and who speak of Jesus Christ with testimony stay strong. Keep testifying against those who are led astray, try to re-win them back and hopefully by doing so we can always make it uncomfortable for those who persist in trying to lead astray and we can win a few of the battles. Hopefully we can always win however if not can we be so determined as was Daniel who once said:

Daniel 3: 17-18

17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Thanks again for your kind words and thoughtful considerations.

[Alaris]

I think each of you misunderstand the response of the "naysayers" and it is tragic as it speaks to a potential flaw in your own capacity to sort through information and detect the things of God. Joseph Smith once stated, and yes this is an actual Joseph Smith Quote:

Insult # 1 & 2 - You know these are insults. No explanation needed. Bolded just in case.

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. ...

...A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects.

Great quote!

Nonetheless lacking specific knowledge of how to try the spirits and to exercise the gift of discernment James E. Faust cautions:

We all have an inner braking system that will stop us before we follow Satan too far down the wrong road. It is the still, small voice which is within us. But once we have succumbed, the braking system begins to leak brake fluid and our stopping mechanism becomes weak and ineffective.(Faust, James E., The Great Imitator” October 1987 General Conference)

Another great quote. We can skip the next one as it was also great from a great man who I don't recall insulting people ... ever.

By the way these are actual quotes. I did not have to fabricate anything:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

Another insult.

People who share material such as was provided in the OP are one in a long line of Hiram Page's. To which Joseph commented:

...it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.” (History of the Church, 1:338.)

You may be right!

alaris, it is not being a "tough crowd" to respond negatively when the core of your being recoils at words of false direction. Even the Ammonites bound Korihor and removed him from their midst for his efforts to deceive - that's a tough crowd, but one I sustain in total agreement.

Actually yes it is. You demonstrated pointedly in your original comments. In your follow up post you even admitted you struggle sometimes with your tone. You are still struggling my friend.

You are comparing Korihor to Jules. Korihor .... to Jules. I didn't read the full of Jules post - I read for about 5 minutes .... so I cannot definitely say there isn't anything in there that denies God, denies the ability to tell the future, denies the Christ, and is trying to lead me away to sin.

But if those things were in there, should you "bind" up Jules and throw her in front of the forum moderator? Well sure...but that's not what you did here.

If not .. if Korihor is not an apt analogy yet Jules has still been lead astray .. then tell me how have your callous remarks helped her?

Do the brethren treat people this way? From M Russell Ballard's talk "Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers"

"Let us reach out in friendship and love to our neighbors, including those of other faiths, thus helping to build better family-to-family relationships and greater harmony in our neighborhoods. Remember, too often our behavior is a bigger deterrent to others than is our doctrine. In the spirit of love for all men, women, and children, help them to understand and to feel accepted and appreciated."

I won't bother to tell you this is an actual quote because that would be condescending and rude and serve absolutely no other purpose. This is basic second greatest commandment doctrine - The fact so many thanked you and you took a "bow" after is wrong.

Reproving "betimes" with sharpness. Sharpness does not include insults or condescension and especially not gratifying one's own pride. The Spirit of the Lord is grieved.

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.
45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Here's how to get there:

Moroni 7: 48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[brlenox]

I think each of you misunderstand the response of the "naysayers" and it is tragic as it speaks to a potential flaw in your own capacity to sort through information and detect the things of God. Joseph Smith once stated, and yes this is an actual Joseph Smith Quote:

Insult # 1 & 2 - You know these are insults. No explanation needed. Bolded just in case.

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. ...

...A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects.

Great quote!

Nonetheless lacking specific knowledge of how to try the spirits and to exercise the gift of discernment James E. Faust cautions:

We all have an inner braking system that will stop us before we follow Satan too far down the wrong road. It is the still, small voice which is within us. But once we have succumbed, the braking system begins to leak brake fluid and our stopping mechanism becomes weak and ineffective.(Faust, James E., The Great Imitator” October 1987 General Conference)

Another great quote. We can skip the next one as it was also great from a great man who I don't recall insulting people ... ever.

By the way these are actual quotes. I did not have to fabricate anything:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

Another insult.

People who share material such as was provided in the OP are one in a long line of Hiram Page's. To which Joseph commented:

...it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.” (History of the Church, 1:338.)

You may be right!

alaris, it is not being a "tough crowd" to respond negatively when the core of your being recoils at words of false direction. Even the Ammonites bound Korihor and removed him from their midst for his efforts to deceive - that's a tough crowd, but one I sustain in total agreement.

Actually yes it is. You demonstrated pointedly in your original comments. In your follow up post you even admitted you struggle sometimes with your tone. You are still struggling my friend.

You are comparing Korihor to Jules. Korihor .... to Jules. I didn't read the full of Jules post - I read for about 5 minutes .... so I cannot definitely say there isn't anything in there that denies God, denies the ability to tell the future, denies the Christ, and is trying to lead me away to sin.

But if those things were in there, should you "bind" up Jules and throw her in front of the forum moderator? Well sure...but that's not what you did here.

If not .. if Korihor is not an apt analogy yet Jules has still been lead astray .. then tell me how have your callous remarks helped her?

Do the brethren treat people this way? From M Russell Ballard's talk "Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers"

"Let us reach out in friendship and love to our neighbors, including those of other faiths, thus helping to build better family-to-family relationships and greater harmony in our neighborhoods. Remember, too often our behavior is a bigger deterrent to others than is our doctrine. In the spirit of love for all men, women, and children, help them to understand and to feel accepted and appreciated."

I won't bother to tell you this is an actual quote because that would be condescending and rude and serve absolutely no other purpose. This is basic second greatest commandment doctrine - The fact so many thanked you and you took a "bow" after is wrong.

Reproving "betimes" with sharpness. Sharpness does not include insults or condescension and especially not gratifying one's own pride. The Spirit of the Lord is grieved.

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.
45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Here's how to get there:

Moroni 7: 48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

In several respects, your observations are correct. It is not fair to kick Jules when she is down - it has a lot to do with the nature of what she is claiming and the manner in which she presents herself. However, your points are well made and taken. I will take from them that which is of salient value and work on them.

[Elizabeth]

;) YMWHISTLE

[SmallFarm]

Many LDS posters were "permanently" banned numerous times by Jules, including myself.

I was completely banned ... Most of those who complained against the prophets and put down the church have left and while they may think otherwise, I think over time they couldn't tolerate the testimonies of those who hung on during those years.

Nobody has ever had the ability to ban people but Brian.... try again

[Rose Garden]

Many LDS posters were "permanently" banned numerous times by Jules, including myself.

I was completely banned ... Most of those who complained against the prophets and put down the church have left and while they may think otherwise, I think over time they couldn't tolerate the testimonies of those who hung on during those years.

Nobody has ever had the ability to ban people but Brian.... try again

I'm pretty sure moderators have the power to ban people.

[butterfly]

I used to think that defending truth and fighting the good fight meant that I had to be overwhelmingly vocal whenever anyone else was wrong. It was my duty to expose those poor misguided souls in order to protect them and protect the flock. Younger, inexperienced sheep could fall prey to apostates' deception.

I truly believed that this was what God wanted me to do; I acted out of love for my fellow man.

Now I see that I was actually being like Saul- valiantly throwing into "prison" anyone who, from my viewpoint, was wrong.

If you are acting out of charity, you will not have a mind to injure another. Why attack a person for sharing their beliefs?
I know the answer, I thought the same way before: "to protect the flock."
Fighting the good fight does not mean that I should literally be fighting. The good fight is a much harder battle because it's a battle with yourself, not with your neighbor's beliefs.

If I want to defend the truth, then I will make sure my spirit wins out over my natural man; instead of seeking to injure another, under the guise of protecting the flock, I will teach by example how to be respectful and loving of another person's beliefs.

It is easy to throw cheap shots at someone we disagree with. The good fight is about loving them in spite of the disagreement.

[SmallFarm]

Many LDS posters were "permanently" banned numerous times by Jules, including myself.

I was completely banned ... Most of those who complained against the prophets and put down the church have left and while they may think otherwise, I think over time they couldn't tolerate the testimonies of those who hung on during those years.

Nobody has ever had the ability to ban people but Brian.... try again

I'm pretty sure moderators have the power to ban people.

I didn't