The Second Woe and the "two witnesses"...

[friendsofthe]

What do you think, could John be one of the two? http://thebridegroomcometh.net/the-seco ... witnesses/

Would love to hear your comments...

[Alaris]

What do you think, could John be one of the two? http://thebridegroomcometh.net/the-seco ... witnesses/

Would love to hear your comments...

Great post! My first reaction was "nah." Yet I believe the Davidic Servant is James the brother of John. It makes sense that the first and second counselor to an archangel would prepare the earth to ascend as they ascend likewise. They are also both in the temple endowment.

[Spaced_Out]

False doctrine. John mission is to prepare the 10 lost tribes to return.
The apostle John is already translated how can he die again - that is also dealt with in the Book of Mormon, that they die not and will not taste death.

My feeling is that it will be two modern day apostles sent to Jerusalem. The event it deep in the 7th seal well after Zion the New Jerusalem is established and the 10 lost tribes have returned.

[Alaris]

False doctrine. John mission is to prepare the 10 lost tribes to return.
The apostle John is already translated how can he die again - that is also dealt with in the Book of Mormon, that they die not and will not taste death.

My feeling is that it will be two modern day apostles sent to Jerusalem. The event it deep in the 7th seal well after Zion the New Jerusalem is established and the 10 lost tribes have returned.

Don't be so quick to declare false doctrine. I too felt the exact same way, but translated beings are not resurrected beings. Also, if you read the scriptures quoted, it sounds very much like the two witnesses are impervious for a time, which sounds exactly like the three nephites when the enemies of righteousness tried to bury them, burn them, etc. to no avail.

It sounds like once their mission is done, the Lord allows these two witnesses to die. Does it not?

[Alaris]

What do you think, could John be one of the two? http://thebridegroomcometh.net/the-seco ... witnesses/

Would love to hear your comments...

Great post! My first reaction was "nah." Yet I believe the Davidic Servant is James the brother of John. It makes sense that the first and second counselor to an archangel would prepare the earth to ascend as they ascend likewise. They are also both in the temple endowment.

I just quoted myself. Not sure how I feel about that.

Well to expand upon this ... I realize James the son of Zebedee is not an obvious choice of the davidic servant since he died by the sword--he was the first martyred apostle in the scriptures. However what is in the sealed 2/3 portion that is so secret??? SO much content! Withheld because we can't abide it!

Would it not be poetic for the davidic servant to appear around the same time the sealed 2/3 portion is released & the full record of John - where John basically says the two witnesses are me and my brother reborn? By the way that's one of the hidden doctrines that most people can't abide. Just sayin'

[Alaris]

I have been thinking a lot about your post friendsofthe

Revelation 11: 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

So after re-reading your post and Revelation 10 and 11 a few times, I do think the "prophesy" in reference to John prophesying to nations and kings again and then the world is used to denote how many days the two witnesses prophesy is not a coincidence but deliberate as you pointed out in your blog.

In revelation 11:6 reference is made to turning waters to blood and smiting earth with plagues - what is the obvious parallel? Moses saving Israel from Egypt!

This is from my quick google of the Davidic Servant saving Israel, which points to another thread in these forums, which points to Avraham Gileadi's book "The Last Days" which I have yet to read:

page 164:

The Lord's righteous servant exercises power over nations and rulers and releases Israel's captives.
The Lord's servant restores the tribes of Israel and unites Judah and Joseph
The Lord's servant appoints the inheritances of the Lord's people.
The Lord's servant--a new Cyrus--rebuilds Jerusalem and the temple.
The Lord's raising up of a righteous branch to David, the Lord's latter-day servant--causes Judah to be 'saved' and Israel to dwell safely.

I'm looking for the scriptures that back up those first lines, but this is an interesting parallel to the two witnesses and the davidic servant. Perhaps the DS is one of the two witnesses. Perhaps John is the other.

Edit: I found one of the references. Gileadi believe the "arm" of Jehovah is the Davidic Servant:

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Edit: Edit:

Isaiah 30:30
And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Again, according to Gileadi, the arm is the Davidic Servant.

Revelation 11:5
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Both the Davidic Servant and the Two witnesses have fire to devour ... in the last days....

[Spaced_Out]

Don't be so quick to declare false doctrine. I too felt the exact same way, but translated beings are not resurrected beings. Also, if you read the scriptures quoted, it sounds very much like the two witnesses are impervious for a time, which sounds exactly like the three nephites when the enemies of righteousness tried to bury them, burn them, etc. to no avail.

It sounds like once their mission is done, the Lord allows these two witnesses to die. Does it not?

God uses mortal men to accomplish his purposes, other beings only administer to mortal men on this earth. Such a thing as a translated being doing those works and then dying is impossible.

[Alaris]

Don't be so quick to declare false doctrine. I too felt the exact same way, but translated beings are not resurrected beings. Also, if you read the scriptures quoted, it sounds very much like the two witnesses are impervious for a time, which sounds exactly like the three nephites when the enemies of righteousness tried to bury them, burn them, etc. to no avail.

It sounds like once their mission is done, the Lord allows these two witnesses to die. Does it not?

God uses mortal men to accomplish his purposes, other beings only administer to mortal men on this earth. Such a thing as a translated being doing those works and then dying is impossible.

Hey I used to think this way about 1 week ago. If I only I could time travel and tell myself ... hey Alaris. You're being a bit too presumptive don't you think? So many of us think that we know the breadth, depth, width and scope of God and his ways. His thoughts are above our thoughts.

3 Nephi:
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

John 21:
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Bolded for emphasis.

D&C 7:
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

Notice the difference between the promise to the nephites and to John? He specifically tells the nephites they will twinkle. He tells John he will tarry...i.e. not die ... until (there's that word again) the Lord comes in His glory.

Thanks for the challenge as it lead me to learn more and further solidfy this possibility.

[Z2100]

We shall not know who it is until it happens (c.2094). But guessing can be fun ;)

[friendsofthe]

I have a friend who believes that John will be one of the two witnesses and that Ezekiel, who was taken up to heaven without tasting death will be the other…. He was pretty good at calling fire down out of heaven…

[kittycat51]

I just wrote this a week or so ago in another thread. Thought I would re-post on this thread. Pay attention to what a modern day apostle said at the end...

I know it is just one man's opinion but I find it sound...David Ridges in his "50 Signs of the Times" book wrote this:

"It is found in Revelations, chapter eleven. We will quote some of the verses here and bold some words and phrases for emphasis. But first, a note about the significant change made here by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In Revelation 11:3, it uses the phrase "two witnesses." This could mean any two people, including two missionaries or whoever. It reads as follows (bold added for emphasis):

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, in D&C 77:15, Joseph Smith changed the word from "witnesses" to "prophets" as follows (bold added for emphasis):

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Thus we understand that these martyrs will necessarily be members of our First Presidency or of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They are all sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" and as such are all prophets. One of my colleagues who was serving as a stake president at the same time I was, told me that one of our Apostles mentioned this in a conversation with him. The Apostle told him that it was a very sobering thing to realize that two of them or their successors would fulfill this prophecy."

Regardless, I believe that whoever it is, the leaders of the Church will not announce that 2 of them are going over to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It would cause a GREAT stir in the Church and around the world. Rather when it happens it will be up to us to discern that it is happening.

[Z2100]

I just wrote this a week or so ago in another thread. Thought I would re-post on this thread. Pay attention to what a modern day apostle said at the end...

I know it is just one man's opinion but I find it sound...David Ridges in his "50 Signs of the Times" book wrote this:

"It is found in Revelations, chapter eleven. We will quote some of the verses here and bold some words and phrases for emphasis. But first, a note about the significant change made here by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In Revelation 11:3, it uses the phrase "two witnesses." This could mean any two people, including two missionaries or whoever. It reads as follows (bold added for emphasis):

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, in D&C 77:15, Joseph Smith changed the word from "witnesses" to "prophets" as follows (bold added for emphasis):

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Thus we understand that these martyrs will necessarily be members of our First Presidency or of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They are all sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" and as such are all prophets. One of my colleagues who was serving as a stake president at the same time I was, told me that one of our Apostles mentioned this in a conversation with him. The Apostle told him that it was a very sobering thing to realize that two of them or their successors would fulfill this prophecy."

Regardless, I believe that whoever it is, the leaders of the Church will not announce that 2 of them are going over to Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It would cause a GREAT stir in the Church and around the world. Rather when it happens it will be up to us to discern that it is happening.

Will they be from the presidency of today or the future. I'm thinking like, 70+ years from now...

[Spaced_Out]

John 21:
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Bolded for emphasis.

D&C 7:
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

Notice the difference between the promise to the nephites and to John? He specifically tells the nephites they will twinkle. He tells John he will tarry...i.e. not die ... until (there's that word again) the Lord comes in His glory.

Thanks for the challenge as it lead me to learn more and further solidfy this possibility.

Your own scriptures condemns your false doctrine. The event of the 2 witnesses is that they die 3 days and are resurrected prior to the Master coming in all his Glory. That event occurs prior to the second coming in Glory.

Yes and has has been pointed out the Scripture is clear it will be prophets raised in the last days.
However, in D&C 77:15,
15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their father.

The scriptures are clear that translated beings are changed in a twinkling of the eye and do not suffer death. To think a translated being can die and go to the spirit world and only retrieve there body back after 3 days is madness. The scripture does not say to John that he will be changed in an instant because if he is to tarry till the Master comes back in all his glory then those on the earth will be caught up to meet him in the clouds - so it is an obvious thing that does not need to be explained or said.

[BeNotDeceived]

Notice the difference between the promise to the nephites and to John? He specifically tells the nephites they will twinkle. He tells John he will tarry...i.e. not die ... until (there's that word again) the Lord comes in His glory.

Thanks for the challenge as it lead me to learn more and further solidfy this possibility.

What of those that twinkle while they tarry?

[Spaced_Out]

Notice the difference between the promise to the nephites and to John? He specifically tells the nephites they will twinkle. He tells John he will tarry...i.e. not die ... until (there's that word again) the Lord comes in His glory.

Thanks for the challenge as it lead me to learn more and further solidfy this possibility.

What of those that twinkle while they tarry? =))

Then you have resurrected beings walking the earth....
That happens during the millennium - when reach an age of a tree they are twinkled with the stars....

[Aaronjs0005]

False doctrine. John mission is to prepare the 10 lost tribes to return.
The apostle John is already translated how can he die again - that is also dealt with in the Book of Mormon, that they die not and will not taste death.

My feeling is that it will be two modern day apostles sent to Jerusalem. The event it deep in the 7th seal well after Zion the New Jerusalem is established and the 10 lost tribes have returned.

I thought the return of the lost tribes is after the 2nd Coming? The Jews still aren't entirely converted (if much at all) as Christ appears to them and converts many. With that kind of religious make-up of Israel and the instability of the region, would not the return of the lost tribes from the north be after the Savior returns and apparently they are supposed to receive a blessing at Ephraim's hand in Salt Lake, which is a little confusing. I'd love some lightening on all this.

Thanks

[Matchmaker]

I mentioned it before on a previous thread, but I'm thinking it could be Elder Bednar and someone else, maybe Elder Holland or Cook, because of work Elder Bednar did this past year with Rabbi Soloveichik from Yeshiva University, and because of Elder Holland and Elder Cook's trip to Israel in 2016 to commemorate Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer.

[brianj]

I don't believe the witnesses will be, or could be, people who were resurrected or translated because the witnesses will lay dead for three days before being resurrected in view of the world.

And I know a lot of church members firmly believe that the witnesses can't be anybody other than members of the First Presidency or Twelve, but I see no scriptural reason why the witnesses can't be of the house of Judah and called from a restored authority for that house of Israel.

[Alaris]

I don't believe the witnesses will be, or could be, people who were resurrected or translated because the witnesses will lay dead for three days before being resurrected in view of the world.

And I know a lot of church members firmly believe that the witnesses can't be anybody other than members of the First Presidency or Twelve, but I see no scriptural reason why the witnesses can't be of the house of Judah and called from a restored authority for that house of Israel.

Hey Brianj,

I totally agree with your second paragraph. There were twelve disciples in the new world while there were twelve apostles in the old world.

I'm not sure if you read my posts above addressing your first paragraph but I used to totally agree not that long ago. I have learned a balanced approach to being open to learning by being willing to accept my presuppositions may be wrong.

Please read my post above about the difference between the promises given to John and to the three nephites. Specifically the three nephites are told they will never taste of death but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Contrast that with this :

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

See! It's hiding right there in plain sight!!! John will not taste of death until he sees the Son of man coming in his kingdom. After he sees the Son of man... Then will he taste of death. Vastly different than the promise given to the three.

Also bear in mind the point of the OP:

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Even though it's the prior chapter it's the same paragraph as the two witnesses described at the beginning of chapter 11. Also hiding in plain sight.

[brianj]

I'm not sure if you read my posts above addressing your first paragraph but I used to totally agree not that long ago. I have learned a balanced approach to being open to learning by being willing to accept my presuppositions may be wrong.

Please read my post above about the difference between the promises given to John and to the three nephites. Specifically the three nephites are told they will never taste of death but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Contrast that with this :

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

See! It's hiding right there in plain sight!!! John will not taste of death until he sees the Son of man coming in his kingdom. After he sees the Son of man... Then will he taste of death. Vastly different than the promise given to the three.

Also bear in mind the point of the OP:

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Even though it's the prior chapter it's the same paragraph as the two witnesses described at the beginning of chapter 11. Also hiding in plain sight.

I saw your earlier post, but I have difficulty with your conclusion based on when the sight of the Son of man approaching will happen. As I understand it, the deliverance of Jerusalem and destruction of the occupying forces will happen well before the Second Coming. There will be a time for the Jews to be taught and accept the gospel, and for 12,000 Jews to be called as that tribe's contribution to the 144,000 then go preach before the Second Coming happens. Will the sign be visible that far before the Second Coming?

To answer that question I reference Joseph Smith, as recorded in History of the Church 5:337. He said that some would call the sign a comet, but comets don't have an active coma for years before perigee so I don't see how something approaching so slowly or visible for so long could be confused for a comet.

[Alaris]

I'm not sure if you read my posts above addressing your first paragraph but I used to totally agree not that long ago. I have learned a balanced approach to being open to learning by being willing to accept my presuppositions may be wrong.

Please read my post above about the difference between the promises given to John and to the three nephites. Specifically the three nephites are told they will never taste of death but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Contrast that with this :

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

See! It's hiding right there in plain sight!!! John will not taste of death until he sees the Son of man coming in his kingdom. After he sees the Son of man... Then will he taste of death. Vastly different than the promise given to the three.

Also bear in mind the point of the OP:

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Even though it's the prior chapter it's the same paragraph as the two witnesses described at the beginning of chapter 11. Also hiding in plain sight.

I saw your earlier post, but I have difficulty with your conclusion based on when the sight of the Son of man approaching will happen. As I understand it, the deliverance of Jerusalem and destruction of the occupying forces will happen well before the Second Coming. There will be a time for the Jews to be taught and accept the gospel, and for 12,000 Jews to be called as that tribe's contribution to the 144,000 then go preach before the Second Coming happens. Will the sign be visible that far before the Second Coming?

To answer that question I reference Joseph Smith, as recorded in History of the Church 5:337. He said that some would call the sign a comet, but comets don't have an active coma for years before perigee so I don't see how something approaching so slowly or visible for so long could be confused for a comet.

There are and will be many signs of the second coming just like the Lord will appear to the saints before He appears to the world. The deliverance of Jerusalem is one of the pinnacle events of the second coming when the mount of olives is split and the Jews flee to safety and ask Him what are these wounds in your hands? Certainly the sign of His coming will be before that.

Edit:

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 14:4-5
4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

“All [the prophets] speak of [this day]; and when that time comes, the Lord is going to come out of His hiding place. You can see what a terrible condition it is going to be; and the Jews besieged, not only in Jerusalem but, of course, throughout Palestine are in the siege; and when they are about to go under, then the Lord comes. There will be the great earthquake. The earthquake will not be only in Palestine. There will not be merely the separation of the Mount of Olives, to form a valley that the Jews may escape, but the whole earth is going to be shaken. There will be some dreadful things take place, and some great changes are going to take place, and that you will find written in the book of Ezekiel (38:17–23).” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Signs of the Times, p. 170.)

So firstly, the two witnesses could die around this same time and see the Lord or even His coming or the sign of His coming to meet the requirement of "till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." You have to have a rather narrow interpretation of the timeline and to whom He appears when to say this couldn't happen.

Secondly, I feel like you're missing the larger point. Jesus Christ said John the Beloved will not taste of death UNTIL "they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." This promise is recorded very similarly in more than one gospel, so interpretation / mistranslation becomes less of a possibility. Then you contrast the promise to John to the three nephites and you have further evidence that John's promise is unique and DOES SPELL OUT HE WILL TASTE OF DEATH.

Thirdly, John is told in the same paragraph of the two witnesses prophecy by an angel of the Lord that he, John, will testify again before all nations. Open your heart just a little to this, and pray about it. On one hand you really haven't done that or considered this because it doesn't fit with your preconceptions. On the other hand, I was there with you just a few weeks ago and opened my heart to this possibility, and prayed about it, and received not only an affirmative, but keep receiving further witnesses and scriptures to the affirmative (Ether 12:6.)

Why is it so rare to see people make such admissions here or anywhere? "I used to think this way, but my heart was open and I learned something new." So many make declarations as though they know everything already and are the authority to say what is or isn't possible. I wonder why these people participate in these forums if for no other reasons to gratify their pride by scratching their know-it-all itch. I'm not saying this is you brianj at all, but am addressing a larger frustration I am having with learning something amazing - receiving multiple witnesses of it - and then have people casually toss it aside without an open heart or a second thought.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13 ¶ But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

[dafty]

I'm not sure if you read my posts above addressing your first paragraph but I used to totally agree not that long ago. I have learned a balanced approach to being open to learning by being willing to accept my presuppositions may be wrong.

Please read my post above about the difference between the promises given to John and to the three nephites. Specifically the three nephites are told they will never taste of death but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Contrast that with this :

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

See! It's hiding right there in plain sight!!! John will not taste of death until he sees the Son of man coming in his kingdom. After he sees the Son of man... Then will he taste of death. Vastly different than the promise given to the three.

Also bear in mind the point of the OP:

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Even though it's the prior chapter it's the same paragraph as the two witnesses described at the beginning of chapter 11. Also hiding in plain sight.

I saw your earlier post, but I have difficulty with your conclusion based on when the sight of the Son of man approaching will happen. As I understand it, the deliverance of Jerusalem and destruction of the occupying forces will happen well before the Second Coming. There will be a time for the Jews to be taught and accept the gospel, and for 12,000 Jews to be called as that tribe's contribution to the 144,000 then go preach before the Second Coming happens. Will the sign be visible that far before the Second Coming?

To answer that question I reference Joseph Smith, as recorded in History of the Church 5:337. He said that some would call the sign a comet, but comets don't have an active coma for years before perigee so I don't see how something approaching so slowly or visible for so long could be confused for a comet.

There are and will be many signs of the second coming just like the Lord will appear to the saints before He appears to the world. The deliverance of Jerusalem is one of the pinnacle events of the second coming when the mount of olives is split and the Jews flee to safety and ask Him what are these wounds in your hands? Certainly the sign of His coming will be before that.

Edit:

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 14:4-5
4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

“All [the prophets] speak of [this day]; and when that time comes, the Lord is going to come out of His hiding place. You can see what a terrible condition it is going to be; and the Jews besieged, not only in Jerusalem but, of course, throughout Palestine are in the siege; and when they are about to go under, then the Lord comes. There will be the great earthquake. The earthquake will not be only in Palestine. There will not be merely the separation of the Mount of Olives, to form a valley that the Jews may escape, but the whole earth is going to be shaken. There will be some dreadful things take place, and some great changes are going to take place, and that you will find written in the book of Ezekiel (38:17–23).” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Signs of the Times, p. 170.)

So firstly, the two witnesses could die around this same time and see the Lord or even His coming or the sign of His coming to meet the requirement of "till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." You have to have a rather narrow interpretation of the timeline and to whom He appears when to say this couldn't happen.

Secondly, I feel like you're missing the larger point. Jesus Christ said John the Beloved will not taste of death UNTIL "they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." This promise is recorded very similarly in more than one gospel, so interpretation / mistranslation becomes less of a possibility. Then you contrast the promise to John to the three nephites and you have further evidence that John's promise is unique and DOES SPELL OUT HE WILL TASTE OF DEATH.

Thirdly, John is told in the same paragraph of the two witnesses prophecy by an angel of the Lord that he, John, will testify again before all nations. Open your heart just a little to this, and pray about it. On one hand you really haven't done that or considered this because it doesn't fit with your preconceptions. On the other hand, I was there with you just a few weeks ago and opened my heart to this possibility, and prayed about it, and received not only an affirmative, but keep receiving further witnesses and scriptures to the affirmative (Ether 12:6.)

Why is it so rare to see people make such admissions here or anywhere? "I used to think this way, but my heart was open and I learned something new." So many make declarations as though they know everything already and are the authority to say what is or isn't possible. I wonder why these people participate in these forums if for no other reasons to gratify their pride by scratching their know-it-all itch. I'm not saying this is you brianj at all, but am addressing a larger frustration I am having with learning something amazing - receiving multiple witnesses of it - and then have people casually toss it aside without an open heart or a second thought.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13 ¶ But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Hi, you are the only person I know of that preaches/believes that John the Beloved and his brother(reincarnated James I believe you said?) will be two witnesses. Therefore, I find it a bit arrogant of you to say 'open you heart a little and pray about it' because you have received a scriptural witness, since that would mean you are the only one in the world that figured it all out(one of the greatest mysteries may I add). Of course, you may well be right, but a little humility and patience, rather than frustration wouldn't go a miss. GOD bless x

[Alaris]

Hi, you are the only person I know of that preaches/believes that John the Beloved and his brother(reincarnated James I believe you said?) will be two witnesses. Therefore, I find it a bit arrogant of you to say 'open you heart a little and pray about it' because you have received a scriptural witness, since that would mean you are the only one in the world that figured it all out(one of the greatest mysteries may I add). Of course, you may well be right, but a little humility and patience, rather than frustration wouldn't go a miss. GOD bless x

Hey Dafty - thanks for your post and I understand why it would seem arrogant, and I TOTALLY agree with patience. I have no patience. God knows this and patiently tries to send opportunities my way every day.

However I completely disagree with humility. I am the most humblest person ever! :ymhug:

All joking aside ... I don't say this in the spirit of contention, but I invite you to re-read the OP and the article that is linked. Please re-read my posts. I say this because, firstly, I'm obviously not the only person as the OP is saying this. Secondly, I've admitted several times in this thread that I used to think - very recently - it was impossible for John to be one of the witnesses for the exact same reasons that people have shared here - and that I read the OP with an open mind and an open heart and felt the spirit confirm to me this is true.

Fourthly, neither the OP nor I are the only ones to believe this. I know this because I used to take the stance that it was impossible for John to be one of the witnesses precisely because some people believed it and I discarded it without a second thought because I presumed that a translated being would not be able to die and I presumed the two witnesses to be as-of-yet unknown people. I cast the belief aside without ever considering it, pondering it, and praying on it.

Fifthly, I was blessed to see ~ 30 people receive a witness of the Book of Mormon during my mission. I've seen it happen a few times since as well. Every time ... every single time someone follows Moroni's promise in Chapter 10:3-5, they receive a witness. I could see it in there eyes upon our next visit before speaking. We saw eye to eye. During my mission I tried to convince thousands of people to follow Moroni's promise. I can't even take credit for the ~ 30 people who were witness to by the spirit as the spirit itself, my companions, other members, other witnesses were all partakers of the work. Here is new scripture! God is calling prophets again! All you have to do is spend 20-30 minutes reading this, ponder it, and pray with sincerity and you will know for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Why is it so hard to convince people to consider there is some truth out there they don't already know about!!?!?!?! OK all those exclamation points and question marks give away my level of patience. O:-)

Moses lifted up the staff so that all the poisoned Israelites had to to was look and live - yet many wouldn't.

I think you know the point I'm building up here, and I hope you can see that by the amount of time I've spent typing these words in this thread I am showing at least some degree of patience and long-suffering if only a little. :-w

All you have to do is have an open heart to this idea. Ponder it. Pray about it with sincerity. You will know too because the same spirit that converted me to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same spirit that convinced those lucky souls of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel, is the same spirit that witnessed to me that John the Beloved is one of the two witnesses.

[dafty]

...the same spirit that converted me to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same spirit that convinced those lucky souls of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel, is the same spirit that witnessed to me that John the Beloved is one of the two witnesses.

thats heck of a claim there, ever considered what if you were wrong
Thanks for your patient reply by the way ;)

[Alaris]

thats heck of a claim there, ever considered what if you were wrong
Thanks for your patient reply by the way ;)

Confucius say ... If one does not consider the possibility of being wrong one can only learn so much. I don't know if Confucius actually said that or not. I could be wrong.