The Second Woe and the "two witnesses"...

[Alaris]

The Rod and the Root - The Two Witnesses? I color coded the links that tie the scriptures together - Isaiah 11, Moses 7, and Revelation 11 - to show that the Rod and the Root are the two witnesses! I've already mentioned some of these points and scriptures in this thread, but I thought I would tie these four scriptures together to show how they all tie together.

D&C 113 adds some clarity as to whom the Rod and the Root are as mentioned in Isaiah 11.

D&C 113:
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

There are keywords and phrases to tie these together. I have color coded them so they can be matched easily.

Isaiah 11
Davidic Servant
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Righteousness is one of the key words Isaiah uses to describe the Davidic Servant. This word ties into Moses 7:62. Slaying with the breath of his lips I have made orange and ties into Revelation 11.

The Root - John?
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

The root of Jesse is a separate person. His rest shall be glorious perhaps because he's had a very long day of labor (2000+ years.) Isaiah 11:12 The gathering from the four corners of the earth ties into Moses 7:62 in addition to Isaiah 11:4-5 tying the key word "Righteousness" into Moses 7:62.

Moses 7
Righteousness = The Rod, Davidic Servant, Truth = The Root
61 And the day shall come that the earth shall rest, but before that day the heavens shall be darkened, and a veil of darkness shall cover the earth; and the heavens shall shake, and also the earth; and great tribulations shall be among the children of men, but my people will I preserve;
62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth , to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

I believe truth coming from the earth (as opposed to righteousness being sent down out of heaven) refers to John who has been on a long, earthly sojourn. Moreover, the person is referred to as a ROOT in Isaiah 11 - A root comes from .... that's right! OUT OF THE EARTH! If John is the root, then the symbolism is rich - he's been here all along ... hidden ... yet working and growing for the sake of the Olive Tree. (Jacob 5.)

Revelation 11:

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Isaiah 11 - he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
and
Revelation 11 - fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.

Breath of his lips /fire proceedeth out of their mouth | slay the wicked / devoureth their enemies. I think that's a pretty huge clue that the Davidic Servant is one of the two witnesses. Hrm ... 11:11 ... maybe that's why I keep seeing that.

Lastly the mentioning of an earthquake aligns Revelation 11 to Moses 7:61.

An interesting reference to truth and righteousness who I believe to be the two witnesses where the same words may represent them as the rod and the root respectively in my post above. This is from the Rabbi Kaduri prophecy and an excerpt from what his son and grandson reported:

Kaduri’s Portrayal of the Messiah

A few months before Kaduri died at the age of 108, he surprised his followers when he told them that he met the Messiah. Kaduri gave a message in his synagogue on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, teaching how to recognize the Messiah. He also mentioned that the Messiah would appear to Israel after Ariel Sharon’s death. (The former prime minister is still in a coma after suffering a massive stroke more than a year ago.) Other rabbis predict the same, including Rabbi Haim Cohen, kabbalist Nir Ben Artzi and the wife of Rabbi Haim Kneiveskzy.

Kaduri’s grandson, Rabbi Yosef Kaduri, said his grandfather spoke many times during his last days about the coming of the Messiah and redemption through the Messiah. His spiritual portrayals of the Messiah—reminiscent of New Testament accounts—were published on the websites Kaduri.net and Nfc:

“It is hard for many good people in the society to understand the person of the Messiah. The leadership and order of a Messiah of flesh and blood is hard to accept for many in the nation. As leader, the Messiah will not hold any office, but will be among the people and use the media to communicate. His reign will be pure and without personal or political desire. During his dominion, only righteousness and truth will reign.

“Will all believe in the Messiah right away? No, in the beginning some of us will believe in him and some not. It will be easier for non-religious people to follow the Messiah than for Orthodox people.

“The revelation of the Messiah will be fulfilled in two stages: First, he will actively confirm his position as Messiah without knowing himself that he is the Messiah. Then he will reveal himself to some Jews, not necessarily to wise Torah scholars. It can be even simple people. Only then he will reveal himself to the whole nation. The people will wonder and say: ‘What, that’s the Messiah?’ Many have known his name but have not believed that he is the Messiah.” ~from http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/t ... fault.aspx

That last paragraph obviously isn't a reference to the Messiah but could be a reference to the lesser YAHWEH or the Davidic Servant. At some point, the Davidic Servant is told to Awake and Arise by Jehovah. (Isaiah 51:9.)

[Alaris]

This just keeps getting better and better:

Matthew 20: 20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 10:35 ¶ And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

So first about the right hand and left. I submit to you that James and John may have had an inkling as to what their missions were by this point in time. They grew up with Jesus after all and knew him longer than any of the other Apostles. Did they ask this out of the blue? Did they not know that Peter was the chief apostle?

Daniel 12: 5 ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

In case there could be any mistaking, the time, times, and half a time are referring to the prophecies in Revelation - 3.5 years / 3.5 days / 42 months / 1260 days - all factors of 3.5

Zechariah 4:11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Zechariah 4 and Daniel 12 are referring to the end time prophecies of the two witnesses. John himself identifies the two witnesses with the two olive trees.

Back to the scriptures in Matthew and Mark where the Lord asks James and John if they can partake of the cup? They answer yes like any good disciple would. Then, he tells them they shall - future tense - and they shall be baptized with the same baptism of Jesus. What is the baptism Jesus was baptized with? James and John surely had been baptized already - and what does baptism symbolize? Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Well you can make the case that James partook of that baptism when he was martyred. However, John is still alive ...

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

So the two witnesses suffering on behalf of Israel, their death for 3.5 days, and subsequent resurrection - I say that qualifies as a fulfillment of the prophecy made by Jesus Christ Himself that James and John will partake of the cup will be baptized with the same baptism.

Oh and thank you dafty for pointing out Jeremiah 30 to me:

Jeremiah 30:10 ¶ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

James is Greek for Jacob.

Daniel 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Verse four sure fits with the other scriptures I've mentioned in this thread - Gathering the elect from the four corners of the earth. Power is given to the two witnesses and "no beasts might stand before him."

The horns also fit for James and John. James is higher in authority - the taller horn ... and he came up last "Out of heaven" where the smaller horn came from "out of the earth" - being here and hidden all along.

[Alaris]

And better:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77)
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

[Alaris]

I keep on receiving information like a floodgate about this topic, but I can see that I have somewhat hijacked this thread as some of what I'm saying doesn't support the OP but is supporting my secondary claim that the first witness is James / Jacob (maybe one and the same.) Apologies to Frank / friendsofthe for taking over the thread. I have tried to avoid a blog, but I see no other way. Once I finish gathering enough information together, I will make one blog post and link to it in a new thread. A sneak preview to any lurkers whom I have may swayed - One witness represents Justice and one represents Mercy - one New Jerusalem - one Old Jerusalem - One Elohim and One Jehovah - and the numbers given - the key - 3.5 years, 1260 days, and 3.5 days I have ... well the key to .. unlock that key. That sounded better in my head. Understanding the significance of 3.5 is a key that will unlock the understanding of WHY the witnesses must die and why the Lord Jesus Christ's Prophecy to James and John partaking of the cup and the baptism of Jesus Christ's baptism is so beautiful and significant. I'll be sure to add all props where due as I didn't even take a second look at this until friendsofthe posted this thread, and dafty sent tons of relevant information my way. Thanks all! I'll post this as soon as I can get it together but it is a TON of information at this point. @-)

[friendsofthe]

Well, thanks for the apology but I personally feel that your postings are relevant enough to this thread, so post away! However, I have a problem with James being one of the two witnesses since he has already died. Joseph Smith said that those who are translated have a future mission to perform. So I'm good with John but not so much with James....

[Sunain]

However, I have a problem with James being one of the two witnesses since he has already died. Joseph Smith said that those who are translated have a future mission to perform.

I agree. We can rule out anyone that has already died or has been translated.

Doctrine and Covenants 77:15 reveals more about the two witnesses. These two prophets have power like unto Elijah (see 1 Kings 17:1) and Nephi (see Helaman 10:6–11). Their enemies have power over them only after their mission is accomplished (see Revelation 11:7). In Revelation 11:4 they are called “olive trees” and “candlesticks.” Elder Bruce R. McConkie suggested that these symbolize their mission to “provide oil for the lamps of those who go forth to meet the Bridegroom … [see Matthew 25:1–13; D&C 45:56–57]; and that as lamp stands they shall reflect to men that light which comes from Him who is the Light of the World” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:510).
https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testamen ... s?lang=eng

It has been inferred by some apostles like Elder McConkie that the two witnesses will be living apostles from the church.

[Alaris]

Well, thanks for the apology but I personally feel that your postings are relevant enough to this thread, so post away! However, I have a problem with James being one of the two witnesses since he has already died. Joseph Smith said that those who are translated have a future mission to perform. So I'm good with John but not so much with James....

Thanks I appreciate that. I realize one being James may not be "had" yet. However there are prophecies that do sound very much like MMP. I'll give you a few more tid bits that I will be putting all together when I make the case.

Gathering of Israel
Much has been said and done of late by the general government in relation to the Indians (Lamanites) within the territorial limits of the United States. One of the most important points in the faith of the Church of the Latter-day Saints, through the fullness of the everlasting Gospel, is the gathering of Israel (of whom the Lamanites constitute a part) that happy time when Jacob shall go up to the house of the Lord,to worship Him in spirit and in truth, to live in holiness; when the Lord will restore His judges as at the first, and His counselors as at the beginning; when every man may sit under his own vine and fig tree, and there will be none to molest or make afraid; when He will turn to them a pure language, and the earth will be filled with sacred knowledge, as the waters cover the great deep; when it shall no longer be said, the Lord lives that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, but the Lord lives that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither He has driven them. That day is one, all important to all men. ~ Joseph Smith, TPJS

Let's look at that sentence in reverse order. When the Lord restores His Judges as at first and His Counselors as at the beginning ... is when Jacob (not Israel) goes to the House of the Lord to worship Him in spirit and in truth, to live(i.e. mortal living) in holiness.

Jeremiah 30:10 ¶ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

This scripture above is very interesting. Sure the case can be made the Jacob means something else or symbolizes something else, but why would the Lord say fear not Jacob, do not be dismayed O Israel and then say Jacob shall return? Before attempting to explain that away, compare to Joseph Smith's quote above and below.

I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Latin, Hebrew, German and Greek languages. I have been reading the German, and find it to be the most [nearly] correct translation, and to correspond nearest to the revelations which God has given to me for the last fourteen years. It tells about Jacobus, the son of Zebedee. It means Jacob. In the English New Testament it is translated James. Now, if Jacob had the keys, you might talk about James through all eternity and never get the keys. In the 21st [verse] of the fourth chapter of Matthew, my old German edition gives the word Jacob instead of James.
The doctors (I mean doctors of law, not physic) say, “If you preach anything not according to the Bible, we will cry treason.” How can we escape the damnation of hell, except God be with us and reveal to us? Men bind us with chains. The Latin says Jacobus, which means Jacob; the Hebrew says Jacob, the Greek says Jacob and the German says Jacob, here we have the testimony of four against one. I thank God that I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have all the four Testaments. Come here, ye learned men, and read, if you can. I should not have introduced this testimony, were it not to back up the word rosh—the head, the Father of the Gods. I should not have brought it up, only to show that I am right. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

Above, Joseph Smith is pointing out that James means Jacob, and that in the eternities (very important) you can spend all day looking for the keys (also very important) from James and not find them. And what is King Follet about? It is about HOW to become a God, and I submit to you that the two witnesses reveal a very important step. It is not a coincidence but a giant clue left here deliberately by Joseph Smith--and whenever he leaves subtle clues it may very well indeed because the overt discussion of such would lead to the saints flying "to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions. ~ Joseph Smith"

Now my friend, friendsofthe, since you been so friendly to me, please read the following with an open heart and a prayer.

D&C 7:6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

There's that "until I come" promise again, and this time it includes Peter and James.

Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

This is a prophecy by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to James and John. They both will drink of the cup and be baptized with His baptism. Again before going to James Martyrdom, consider this:

Jesus's ministry was ~ 3 years. His miracles began in John 2 at the first passover of His ministry and His ministry ended at the final passover. Edit: After doing a little bit of research, others have calculated Jesus ministry to be 1260 days! His death lasts 3.5 days. When He is hurt, He answers with MERCY.

Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

I bet you already know where I am going with this. The two witness ministry - 3.5 years. Their death. 3.5 days. Their resurrection and ascent immediately follows. When they are hurt, it is answered with JUSTICE.

Revelation 11:5 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

What if the ministries of Jesus Christ and the Two Witness are two halves of the whole? Jesus offers the Mercy Ministry and the Two Witnesses offer the Justice Ministry. The TWO witnesses suffer and die at the end of their ministry - just like the Savior did at the end of His - and resurrect 3.5 days later - just like the Savior did - and ascend to heaven - just like the ... well you get it. Matthew 20:22-23 is a prophecy of THIS.

For those who say "it can't be" you've closed yourself off from learning something new. Those who close their own minds cannot have them opened by even the Lord Himself unless He sees fit to attempt to pry it open through - well there's examples all over the scriptures. Alma the younger comes to mind. O:-) Remember Joseph Smith wanted to tell us who he is - BUT HE NEVER DID. Would these truths not be revealed when the following comes to pass?

2 Nephi 27: 11 And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.

EDIT: There is a TON of evidence that one of the witnesses represents Justice and one Mercy...this is why they stand on the right hand and the left hand...and why James and John asking to be placed there IS NOT A MERE COINCIDENCE and why Jesus responds with PROPHECY is also not coincidence. Can you guess which one John represents? One is a King and one is a Priest. Moses 7:62 again ...

Moses 7:62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

Righteousness = Justice - Righteousness comes from Heaven (The Father)
Truth = Mercy - Truth comes from the Earth (The Son)

[Alaris]

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Another interesting possible tie in to the two witnesses. They will be killed and resurrected before the earth is cleansed by fire. They will be left with neither root nor branch (rod?) indeed.

[Hogmeister]

I have entertained the thought for many years now that the 2 witnesses are not 2 individuals but the 2 latter day "nations" of Ephraim (USA) and Judah (Israel). These "nations" are 2 olive trees planted by the Lord and they are both witnessing to the rest of the world.

I believe these nations will be destroyed/purged in a coming day (other nations, and the globalist NWO, will rejoice when this happens) and then restored/resurrected.

[Alaris]

Why dont two of you get it settled once and for all...how about a MMA style cage fight? =))
...back on the subject...

Matthew 20
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons(James and John) came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.
She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom(or stand next to authority to Jesus in His Kingdom).”
22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We can,” they answered.
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Two Witnesses
Are symbolised by Two Olive Trees, standing on the left and right side of The Bowl...
TPJS,[email protected] to Noah, who is Gabriel; he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven"

In all honesty I do not claim to know for certain, however, I cant see how James and John are Two Olive Trees and stand next to The Saviour in Priesthood Authority...just food for thought. thanx

Dafty,

Thank you! Debate without contention is ...*ahhh*.... so nice. Secondly, thank you for the challenge. The more I pray and research this the more certain I become. I hope you are sitting when you read this, and I really hope you have a more open mind than our dear brother brianj. I realize saying James is one of the two doesn't nearly have as much scriptural backing as my feelings on the matter have been mostly just that ... until now. So thank you again for the awesome questions to which I have discovered some extremely amazing and intriguing answers. Please read this with an open heart ... and a prayer.

Firstly, James and John asked to sit on either side Jesus and he basically said that that right must be earned and given by the Father. President Ucthdorf gave my second favorite talk during general conference on this. It's a fantastic talk, and I highly recommend it.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference ... u?lang=eng

Secondly, I had been studying and praying about James and John being the two witnesses, so naturally when I heard President Uchtdorf's talk mention the sons of thunder during the Priesthood session my ears perked up. I personally feel that his speaking of these two brothers is not a coincidence. President Eyring's talk too almost seemed like he was speaking to someone specifically at times. Of course this isn't overt, but the feeling I received while listening to President Eyring. Interestingly enough, Presidents Eyring and Uchtdorf are the first and second counselors like James and John are to Peter.

Thirdly, you mentioned the two olive trees standing on the left and right side of the Bowl. Thank you again for that. I have yet again found several pearls that reinforce my testimony. Here is one:

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4

2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Please note that in Zechariah 4 there is one candlestick with two olive trees on either side. John mentions two trees and two candlesticks and appears to be referencing something outside his own writing and could very clearly be referencing Zechariah 4:3,14. The "two" candlesticks could be referencing lone candlesticks as he does not specify here whether they are 7-candled .. candlesticks.

So what is the seven-candled candlestick? Here is an artists rendition of the vision - all credit to the artist:



So we have seven candles on one candlestick flanked by two olive trees. The bowl of oil is above the candlestick feeding into each of the sticks giving them light...and two golden pipes into the olive trees. This is giving me the chills. I think the symbolism of the bowl is clear - it's above and the source of light to the seven candlesticks - It is the Lord Jesus Christ.

The seven candlesticks is also clear to me - They are the seven dispensation heads and the seven archangels, including Michael and Gabriel. So what about the two olive trees? Well first let's ask ourselves, who stands next in authority to the seven? Why James and John. This is why James and John are in the temple endowment - not only are they illustrating a "watch and learn" eternal principle, but they both have a strong destiny - a destiny that is represented by olive trees...

But why Olive trees? It is the job of Davidic Servant to gather up the house of Israel which is often symbolized by an olive tree all throughout the scriptures. Here is Moses 7:62 again.

Moses 7:62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

Righteousness is James. Truth is John. Their jobs are to sweep the earth and gather the elect from the four quarters of the earth unto a place which the Lord shall prepare. Olive Trees indeed.

But this is not all...

The Sons of Thunder

Why would the Savior name James and John the sons of thunder? Surely it could just be an affectionate nickname that is unexplained. Or is it?

Mark 3:17
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

Is there a plausible explanation to this nickname that can add more weight to James and John being the two olive trees in Zechariah 4 - the two anointed ones?

Revelation 10 (The same chapter that starts the paragraph about the two witnesses with John being told he himself will prophecy again to peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.)

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Woh ... this is heavy stuff. The sealed portion of John's revelation was uttered by seven thunders. Is there any correlation we can find with this and with Zechariah 4. Let's see ... seven ... candles! Let's say for a moment the seven candles and the seven thunders both represent the dispensation heads - the highest order of angel - the archangels themselves. Would it not make sense that John's Sealed Revelation would include the fullness of the record of each dispensation?

So why Sons of Thunder? Well what does the Son of God mean? The Son of God is called the Son because he did not receive a fullness at first.

D&C 93:14
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

Coincidentally (or not) D&C 93 speaks of how the Lord ascends and how we ascend and smack dab in the middle says "18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John."

I submit to you all that the Sons of Thunder are called that because they have not yet received the "Thunder" themselves yet but stand next in authority. This is why the lesser Priesthood was given to Joseph Smith by its greatest representative John the Baptist and why the Melchizedek Priesthood had three men standing - Peter who spoke and James and John who participated. This symbolizes Godhood by participation much as Jesus was the God of Israel before He inherited all - how the Holy Ghost is also a member of the Godhead without offering the atonement himself. They symbolize the Path of Ascension.

Avraham Gileadi - expert Isaiah scholar and LDS-converted Jew - believes the Davidic Servant will ascend to the next "level" along with the Earth as it ascends to the next level for the millennium. There is rich symbolism of ascendancy and purification through descent followed by ascent. I too believe this and largely came about this belief during my own studies and personal revelation - I did not find out that Gileadi's published works also support many of the principles I have discovered through “careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts" and by searching "into and contemplat[ing] the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! …

“… Let honesty, and sobriety, and candor, and solemnity, and virtue, and pureness, and meekness, and simplicity crown our heads in every place; and in fine, become as little children, without malice, guile or hypocrisy. And now, brethren, after your tribulations, if you do these things, and exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, He shall give unto you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost." ~ Josephs Smith, History of the Church, 3:295–96

This is why James and John are following Peter around - they are learning to become Peters, or archangels, themselves. Peter: "This is how Satan is cast out. Take note." OK that's not a direct Peter quote but you who have been to the temple know what I mean.

Thank you again dafty and brianj - I feel very much the fulfillment of the Lord's promise in my own life:

D&C 84:88
88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.

A final footnote: If James is the other witness ... and if that other witness it the Davidic Servant himself ... then consider why John would word things the way he does in his Revelation. Would he not leave clues without being overt so only those with open hearts and humble minds can discover? If you study about the many prohecies of the Davidic Servant in Isaiah ... well let's sidenote that ... why did Nephi quote Isaiah for us? Why did Jesus Himself quote Isaiah so much when He appeared in the Americas? The Book of Mormon is written for us to look forward and prepare for that which lies ahead. Back to the Davidic Servant, the Lord conceals him for a time. That fact is not lost on me as I publicly offer my opinion ... but I have prayed on this and feel very strongly I am permitted to share. Thank you. Alaris.

EDIT: I'm adding this bit for thaabit.

Luke 6: 5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

For those of you who are still yet thinking it can't be John because John is translated ... who gave John the power of translation? Who can take it away when He seeth fit? Remember how John corrected the "Brethren" who thought John would not die and repeated again the Lord's exact promise. Why would he correct them if the promise meant John would not die. He will die, and it will not be a twinkling like the three nephites who were promised would not taste of death themselves. John wrote his gospel around the same time he wrote Revelation so he may have seen the end from the beginning before being sure to carefully restate the Lord's promise to him.

EDIT EDIT: Thaabit reminded me that the idea of the Davidic Servant being one of the two witnesses was new to him. So here is a scripture in Isaiah that is clearly referring to the Davidic Servant and how it aligns nicely with the two witnesses. (I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but putting it here to tie it together.)

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

The rod of Jesse is defined in the Doctrine and Covenants as the Davidic Servant. Righteousness is used to describe him throughout Isaiah - see Moses 7:62 above.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Breath/Fire Lips/Mouth Slay/Devour Wicked/Enemies. This is not a coincidence. These are the same people.

While I was searching lds.org for information on the seals I found this gem:

Elder Bruce R. McConkie described what the “seven thunders” mentioned in Revelation 10:3–4 might represent: “The seven thunders which here utter their voices are the seven angels reciting in some detail that which is to be in each of the thousand year periods of the earth’s temporal continuance” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:505).

Of course Bruce R. Says they must be of the quorum of the twelve for which James and John would qualify.

[Michelle]

I do not want to derail the thread, but. . .

Alaris
"Have you ever heard anyone in Sunday School declare "You are wrong." I certainly haven't. Why? We've all heard people in Sunday School share some awesomely false doctrine. Why don't we just tell them, "You are wrong?" '

I have heard it Alaris, in fact, one very uncomfortable day, I had to say it.

Three times the teacher spoke the same false doctrine. (She kept explaining why it was ok to steal sometimes.)Three times the Spirit told me to speak, I knew the exact quote and prophet and I wasn't going to be let off the hook.

So I raised my hand, corrected the teacher. And spent the rest of the class sure that I no longer had any friends in that room. I had share quotes before that hadn't gone over well, but this was a pretty direct contradiction.

Then, something amazing happened, and I needed it for sure.

After class a woman I didn't know, literally chased me down, the block and the half to my house after church just to tell me that she was so glad I made that comment. She had been waiting for me to correct the teacher and she said she wasn't the only one.

What a relief! It turned out nobody hated me, the teacher didn't seem to either. I don't know if she learned anything, but she didn't seem to hold it against me.

I have never regretted telling the truth, even when it made me unpopular. But I have a couple regrets from remaining silent and wishing I could go back and speak up.

[Alaris]

I do not want to derail the thread, but. . .

Alaris
"Have you ever heard anyone in Sunday School declare "You are wrong." I certainly haven't. Why? We've all heard people in Sunday School share some awesomely false doctrine. Why don't we just tell them, "You are wrong?" '

I have heard it Alaris, in fact, one very uncomfortable day, I had to say it.

Three times the teacher spoke the same false doctrine. (She kept explaining why it was ok to steal sometimes.)Three times the Spirit told me to speak, I knew the exact quote and prophet and I wasn't going to be let off the hook.

So I raised my hand, corrected the teacher. And spent the rest of the class sure that I no longer had any friends in that room. I had share quotes before that hadn't gone over well, but this was a pretty direct contradiction.

Then, something amazing happened, and I needed it for sure.

After class a woman I didn't know, literally chased me down, the block and the half to my house after church just to tell me that she was so glad I made that comment. She had been waiting for me to correct the teacher and she said she wasn't the only one.

What a relief! It turned out nobody hated me, the teacher didn't seem to either. I don't know if she learned anything, but she didn't seem to hold it against me.

I have never regretted telling the truth, even when it made me unpopular. But I have a couple regrets from remaining silent and wishing I could go back and speak up.

Not to continue to derail the thread but did you blurt out "You are wrong!" to the teacher?

The point is not we shouldn't point out when we believe others are in error but to do it D&C 121 style with patience and kindness and long suffering. My point was not that people don't get corrected in Sunday School but that when they do it's done respectfully.

The temptation online behind the safety of anonymity and distance is to be more crass than we otherwise would be and otherwise should be.

When I see people give in to that easy temptation and try to justify it with scriptures perhaps my own weakness gets the better of me as I cannot stand for it. I too have fallen into it and have made insensitive corrections and when the offended pointed it out I apologized in public and private.

I taught the 5 year olds this very principle today. It is easier to say "I'm sorry" than "onomatopeia." Yet as we become adults we say "I'm sorry" less and less and are far more likely to use big words to gratify pride than small ones to exemplify true righteousness.

Is exemplify a big word?