Revelation 13:7

[lundbaek]

In the Bible Dictionary in the back of the Bible used by the LDS Church, Pg. 760 one reads that "...repentance comes to mean a turning of the heart and will to God." To me that means that repentance includes striving to know and abide by all the commandments that God has given us.

[lundbaek]

In the New Testament Student Manual, Religion 211-212, Pg. 554 one reads: "Revelation 13:7. "War with the Saints" "John recorded that it was given to the beast from the sea to "make war with the saints, and to overcome them." Though the intended meaning of much of the symbolism in Revelation 13 is uncertain, one message seems clear: Satan and those who uphold his work will be at war against the Saints of God. President Ezra Taft Benson taught: "Satan in waging war against the members of the Church who have testimonies and are trying to keep the commandments. And while many of our members are remaining faithful and strong, some are wavering. Some are falling. Some are fulfilling John's prophecy that in the war with Satan, some SAaints would be overcome."

[Spaced_Out]

In the New Testament Student Manual, Religion 211-212, Pg. 554 one reads: "Revelation 13:7. "War with the Saints" "John recorded that it was given to the beast from the sea to "make war with the saints, and to overcome them." Though the intended meaning of much of the symbolism in Revelation 13 is uncertain, one message seems clear: Satan and those who uphold his work will be at war against the Saints of God. President Ezra Taft Benson taught: "Satan in waging war against the members of the Church who have testimonies and are trying to keep the commandments. And while many of our members are remaining faithful and strong, some are wavering. Some are falling. Some are fulfilling John's prophecy that in the war with Satan, some SAaints would be overcome."

?? yeah sure it is a continuation of the war that stated in heaven.....

[Spaced_Out]

You don't get it.
What is repentance? If you look up repentance in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism you will find this sentence at the beginning of the entry:

Repentance is the process by which humans set aside or overcome sins by changing hearts, attitudes, and actions that are out of harmony with God's teachings, thereby conforming their lives more completely to his will.

What is someone doing when they start to read scriptures every day, pray every day, attend all of their meetings, really pay attention while in those meetings, and so forth? Are they not changing hearts, attitudes, and actions that are out of harmony with God's teachings?

If I tell someone to repent, I really doubt they will do so. But if I encourage them to do things they should be doing or to stop doing things they shouldn't do, then I am starting them on the path of repentance without ever telling them to repent or calling them to repentance.

NO it is you that does not get it, a person will only start reading the scripture if they want to change their life and improve themselves. One must teach and show by example there is a better way to live - then when people desire to repent, and will look to the word of God for guidance.
The scriptures are clear we must teach repentance....

[DesertWonderer]

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Any thoughts or ideas on what we can do individually or as members of the LDS community to minimize the impact of the event(s) prophesied in Revelation 13:7 ?

Buy Hector Sosa's book.

bahahahaha--good one.

[brianj]

NO it is you that does not get it, a person will only start reading the scripture if they want to change their life and improve themselves. One must teach and show by example there is a better way to live - then when people desire to repent, and will look to the word of God for guidance.
The scriptures are clear we must teach repentance....

If I understand you correctly, you believe that at the most recent general conference every general authority and officer who spoke sinned greatly. For brevity I will just list a few speakers at the Saturday morning session.
President Eyring spoke on family history and temple work. He did as I do, encouraging people to participate more actively, instead of calling people to repentance for not already participating more fully.
Next was Joseph Brough of the Young Men General Presidency. He didn't call us to repentance.
Elder Soares of the Presidency of the Seventy spoke on faith, keeping the commandments, and prayer but not once did he mention the word repent or any derivative thereof!
Elder Bragg spoke on the light and goodness around us without calling anyone to repentance.
President Nelson was the concluding speaker. In his speech on drawing the power of Jesus Christ into our lives he used the word repent twice and the word repentance once. In none of those instances did he call us to repentance.

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

[Jonathan_H]

(Ether 4:13–17)
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
17 Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land.
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me...

[shadow]

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

Isn't that the same thing?

[Spaced_Out]

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

Isn't that the same thing?

Exactly it is the same thing. If a General authority tells people to be more active in the temple - then he is telling people to repent and do more temple work. The same if we are told to have more faith and keep the commandments - it is a call to repentance.

[lundbaek]

I note that to most people, LDS and non-LDS, repentance means "a renunciation of sin to which we are naturally inclined." , as stated in the LDS bible Dictionary, Pg. 760. Just before that one reads "...repentance comes to mean a turning of the heart and will to God,...", which to my mind means trying to understand and obey ALL the commandments of God, trying to do all the things that prophets have told us we MUST do, and trying to do those things that prophets and apostles SUGGEST that we do.

[brianj]

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

Isn't that the same thing?

Exactly it is the same thing. If a General authority tells people to be more active in the temple - then he is telling people to repent and do more temple work. The same if we are told to have more faith and keep the commandments - it is a call to repentance.

It's not exactly the same thing. We teach missionaries to start by building relationships of trust and finding common ground because that's a more effective approach than telling people they are wrong and expecting them to change. The result is the same, but the probability of success is far greater if you try to show people a better path than if you just tell them to repent.

[lundbaek]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught "When God made use of the figure of the beast in visions to the prophets He did it to represent those kingdoms which had degenerated and become corrupt, savage and beast-like in their dispositions, even the degenerate kingdoms of the wicked world." (History of the Church 5:341)

It may be profitable to note the the following general characteristics about the beast:
It had power over many nations (Revelation. 13:1, 7)
It opposed God and blasphemed against Him. (Revelation 13:5-6)
The power it wielded was like the power that predatory animals have over their prey. (Revelation 13:2)
Satan gave the beast its power. (Revelation 13:2,4)
People of the world worshiped or followed the beast. (Revelation 13:4)
It was able to overpower many people, including the Saints. (Revelation 13:7)

Do you see any of this happening now ?

[Spaced_Out]

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

Isn't that the same thing?

Exactly it is the same thing. If a General authority tells people to be more active in the temple - then he is telling people to repent and do more temple work. The same if we are told to have more faith and keep the commandments - it is a call to repentance.

It's not exactly the same thing. We teach missionaries to start by building relationships of trust and finding common ground because that's a more effective approach than telling people they are wrong and expecting them to change. The result is the same, but the probability of success is far greater if you try to show people a better path than if you just tell them to repent.

That is a different topic, how we are to teach repentance. Simply telling people to read the scriptures will not cut it.

[shadow]

I ask everybody here to ponder which is the better course of action: to tell everybody we interact with to repent, or to encourage them to choose a better path while knowing that as they do choose a better path they begin the repentance process.

Isn't that the same thing?

Exactly it is the same thing. If a General authority tells people to be more active in the temple - then he is telling people to repent and do more temple work. The same if we are told to have more faith and keep the commandments - it is a call to repentance.

It's not exactly the same thing... The result is the same...

Calling someone to repent absolutely can be by way of simply teaching someone the correct way. It doesn't have to be "Repent or go to Hell, fool!".
Maybe we're talking past each other, I can't tell :))
From the bible Dictionary-

Repentance:
The Greek word of which this is the translation denotes a change of mind, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. Since we are born into conditions of mortality, repentance comes to mean a turning of the heart and will to God, and a renunciation of sin to which we are naturally inclined. Without this there can be no progress in the things of the soul’s salvation, for all accountable persons are stained by sin and must be cleansed in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Repentance is not optional for salvation; it is a commandment of God.

Calling someone to repent is helping them get on that path^^ Some might need a kick in the pants while others just a trail of honey. There's no one way to call someone to repentance.

[nightlight]

Stand in holy places,i.e., your house with family, church, Temple... Which in turn means that Holiness follows you and you follow it. Are goal as individuals is to always be qualified for the Holy Ghost so we can always be found standing in holy places

[nightlight]

I hate to say it ... but the book of revelations is not useful. It can be interpreted so differently that settling it by an appeal to the bible or the scriptures is not relevant.

Throw your dart and guess ... but you will find you are not any further ahead.

I hate to say it as well, but I kinda agree with this statement. Other scriptures correlate well with whats going on in it, and provide a clearer view, although even then its still like seeing through a looking glass darkly.

The book of revelation is only useful when you combine it with other scriptures and the Spirit, of course.

“The things which he [John] shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.” (1 Ne. 14:23.)

God gave it to us for a reason. I'm not saying I understand it perfectly because I dont but I believe it will make more sense when the fullness of the gentiles has come plus John still walks the earth it's kinda disrespectful to call his work not useful

[Durzan]

I hate to say it ... but the book of revelations is not useful. It can be interpreted so differently that settling it by an appeal to the bible or the scriptures is not relevant.

Throw your dart and guess ... but you will find you are not any further ahead.

I hate to say it as well, but I kinda agree with this statement. Other scriptures correlate well with whats going on in it, and provide a clearer view, although even then its still like seeing through a looking glass darkly.

The book of revelation is only useful when you combine it with other scriptures and the Spirit, of course.

“The things which he [John] shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.” (1 Ne. 14:23.)

God gave it to us for a reason. I'm not saying I understand it perfectly because I dont but I believe it will make more sense when the fullness of the gentiles has come plus John still walks the earth it's kinda disrespectful to call his work not useful

Disrespectful or no, its the truth. No matter what people say about it, the book is only useful if you can manage to read it and not come out of it either extremely confused, or without banging your head against the wall in frustration. A book isn't useful if all it does is confuse the heck out of people. As a result, I tend not to focus on it simply because many mormons and christians alike have analyzed it to the point where its like beating a dead horse... and it *still* confuses people. At best, my simple mind wouldn't really get much from it anyway... except when clarified through the use of other scriptures and the Spirit. I will just let the chips fall where they may...

[nightlight]

I hate to say it ... but the book of revelations is not useful. It can be interpreted so differently that settling it by an appeal to the bible or the scriptures is not relevant.

Throw your dart and guess ... but you will find you are not any further ahead.

I hate to say it as well, but I kinda agree with this statement. Other scriptures correlate well with whats going on in it, and provide a clearer view, although even then its still like seeing through a looking glass darkly.

The book of revelation is only useful when you combine it with other scriptures and the Spirit, of course.

“The things which he [John] shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.” (1 Ne. 14:23.)

God gave it to us for a reason. I'm not saying I understand it perfectly because I dont but I believe it will make more sense when the fullness of the gentiles has come plus John still walks the earth it's kinda disrespectful to call his work not useful

Disrespectful or no, its the truth. No matter what people say about it, the book is only useful if you can manage to read it and not come out of it either extremely confused, or without banging your head against the wall in frustration. A book isn't useful if all it does is confuse the heck out of people. As a result, I tend not to focus on it simply because many mormons and christians alike have analyzed it to the point where its like beating a dead horse... and it *still* confuses people. At best, my simple mind wouldn't really get much from it anyway... except when clarified through the use of other scriptures and the Spirit. I will just let the chips fall where they may...

I completely understand what you're saying I just think it's premature to label it not useful I think it will be more utilized when we are in the thick of things.

[Older/wiser?]

One thing that might help in understanding Rev. (Not that I know anything ) is to see just how often the verse slips back into the war fought in Heaven , an then slips right down to here , this one long war is hard for us to see anything other than what applies to our here and now, example: 13:14 And deceived them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword and did live. There is a tradition (I read this in one of Hugh Nibleys books) that Lucifer was taken before the Lord in the preexistence and certain wounds with a sword were made upon his garment rendering him with decreased power, so make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live, is describing Lucifer by what happened to him as he was cast out. Rev. 13:7 in reading that verse I would start in v 6 refers to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in Heaven. V7 war with the saints , kindreds tongues and nations , well I have read the people of heaven referred to that way also ( and have cross referenced that with Rev.8:10-12, so looking at this entire war with out just being here helps. Anyway just some thoughts, oh on an added note Rev 2:12 The Lord refers to Himself as the one who has the sharp sword with two edges; It is He that inflicts the wounds.

[Spaced_Out]

To understand the book of Revelations requires:
a good general gospel knowledge and of modern revelations like the seals.
Yes the writer is some chapters moves between different events like to explain things like the war in heaven then back to earthy events.
Jewish symbolism and how they interpreted it.
As the events unfold they will be recognisable and confirmed by the prophets.

It is like 2 Nephi 25:8, talking about the words of Isaiah.

8 Wherefore, they are of worth unto the children of men, and he that supposeth that they are not, unto them will I speak particularly, and confine the words unto mine own people; for I know that they shall be of great worth unto them in the last days; for in that day shall they understand them; wherefore, for their good have I written them.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/12/seei ... n?lang=eng

http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Keys-to-Unde ... on/s/77094