anyone want to predict a Draper EQ?

[MR. T]

Can someone please tell me how I am a bad person if I donate my money and time to the homeless shelter in SLC but I want to stay far away from the drugs, crime and filth that I see every time I visit the road home shelter? Is there some scripture that says you must take care of the poor and you must do it in your backyard? You must be located no more than 2 miles from a homeless shelter to help them? The church commandeered a city street and built a large mall as a buffer zone to DISTANCE the filth. Go down to Rio Grand St. and see for yourself - it is seriously bad!!!! I also think its sad that Draper doesn't want a homeless shelter BUT the sad part is that NO OTHER CITY WANTS ONE EITHER but Draper is somehow going to have an earthquake because they are rich and bla bla bla...

Earthquake LOL

I'm not entirely familiar with the situation in Draper, but what I have seen from sea to shining sea is an attitude of "help the poor, just help them somewhere else." Even going beyond the sea, the state of Hawaii offers homeless people a free one-way ticket anywhere in the US to get them somewhere else.

One thing that I am very familiar with is the tent cities in the Seattle area. The tent cities are very tightly run, requiring residents to put in a certain number of service hours to keeping the place clean and safe each week. Any drunkenness or drug use is grounds for immediate expulsion. Residents are expected to actively look for a job or pursue job training. The tent cities do not contribute to crime, and are almost entirely populated by good people who are down on their luck. Many of us face a job loss followed by a long struggle to find another job, and a lot of us don't have a tight knit Mormon family with 200 relatives in the immediate are who are able and willing to help.

All of the homeless people I have known are people who are going through bad times. A study from 1994 found that 14% of Americans - one in seven - experiences homelessness at some point in their lives. But a 2015 study found that about 21 million Americans, less than 7%, have a substance abuse problem. Most of these are people you would never suspect of having a substance abuse problem.

Substance abuse is common among the chronically homeless, but not as common as alleged across the entire homeless population. And the allegation that "the church commandeered a city street and built a large mall as a buffer zone to distance the filth" is patently false. They engaged in a questionable deal to acquire one block of a city street in order to push anti-Mormons farther from the temple and a major pedestrian traffic area. I am not able to believe that our church is run by people so filled with pride that they would look at homeless people, even chronically homeless drug users, as filth or inferior. To hold the belief Mr. T expressed requires the belief that every general authority who speaks about humility is a hypocrite.

brianj - You completely MISSED the point of my post that was AND STILL IS, you can help the poor AND be WISE about it!!!!!!!!!!!

FACT: As you walk out the door of the Salt Lake Temple there is a sign that clearly reads “PLEASE DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO THE BEGGARS, INSTEAD DIRECT THEM TO ONE OF THE MANY PROGRAMS SETUP TO HELP THEM”. I have personally seen this sign on multiple occasions. In other words brianj, HELP KEEP THE BEGGARS AWAY FROM THE TEMPLE GROUNDS BY GIVING THEM NO REASON TO BE THERE.

FACT: The church did build a mall as a buffer zone and NOT to make money. Taken from an article in the sltrib : “Keith B.McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers” or in other words brianj - BUFFER ZONE

FACT: The church purchased and took possession and control of a public street for the expressed purpose of security and so the church could CONTROL what happens on that street. In any other context this would meet the definition, if not the spirit of “commandeer”. Please look it up brianj and educate yourself! Personally I think it was a WISE thing to do!

To hold the belief brianj expressed requires the belief that God should bring the spiritually poor into the celestial kingdom to be taught and not keep them in spirit prison or God must be a hypocrite!

[brianj]

brianj - You completely MISSED the point of my post that was AND STILL IS, you can help the poor AND be WISE about it!!!!!!!!!!!

FACT: As you walk out the door of the Salt Lake Temple there is a sign that clearly reads “PLEASE DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO THE BEGGARS, INSTEAD DIRECT THEM TO ONE OF THE MANY PROGRAMS SETUP TO HELP THEM”. I have personally seen this sign on multiple occasions. In other words brianj, HELP KEEP THE BEGGARS AWAY FROM THE TEMPLE GROUNDS BY GIVING THEM NO REASON TO BE THERE.

I just moved to Utah in February, and a week after arriving I went to the Salt Lake Temple. In front of the temple I found a female beggar who I have seen in the same spot on both of my last visits - six months and two years ago. Not giving money to beggars isn't about keeping the scum and inferiors out of site; it's about discouraging professional panhandling.

FACT: The church did build a mall as a buffer zone and NOT to make money. Taken from an article in the sltrib : “Keith B.McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers” or in other words brianj - BUFFER ZONE

You must be right. There's no way it could have been an urban revitalization project to improve downtown for people who live or work in the area as well as investors and growing businesses. Our beloved and humble leaders were just trying to keep the filth away from the Rameumptom.

FACT: The church purchased and took possession and control of a public street for the expressed purpose of security and so the church could CONTROL what happens on that street. In any other context this would meet the definition, if not the spirit of “commandeer”. Please look it up brianj and educate yourself! Personally I think it was a WISE thing to do!

To hold the belief brianj expressed requires the belief that God should bring the spiritually poor into the celestial kingdom to be taught and not keep them in spirit prison or God must be a hypocrite!

Everything I have seen has indicated the highly questionable deal, which is not an act of commandeering because it wasn't done by government using force (believe it or not I have a far larger vocabulary than the mean of the US population), was done to improve "security" by which they mean keeping antagonists away from the front of the temple as well as the entrance to the temple.I was able to attend the temple well before this highly questionable real estate acquisition and I recall entering the temple annex through the door on the north wall of Temple Square, passing a presence of antagonists.

You can pretend that pride is the reason for this deal, keeping the inferiors away, but if that was the case then what actions prompted the ACLU to sue the church? If only the inferior people will be kept away then why have people been arrested for attempting to distribute literature on the new plaza?

And if the Catholic church were to decide it is a WISE thing to purchase the block of South Temple in front of their beautiful Church of the Madeleine, are the odds of the city closing a busy street for some other religion any greater than one in infinity?

Your last sentence is fallacious and based on false equivalencies. You'll have to do better to convince me that it is God's will that the poor be kept far from the A̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶u̶m̶ ̶s̶y̶n̶a̶g̶o̶g̶u̶e̶ Salt Lake Temple.

[MR. T]

brianj - You completely MISSED the point of my post that was AND STILL IS, you can help the poor AND be WISE about it!!!!!!!!!!!

FACT: As you walk out the door of the Salt Lake Temple there is a sign that clearly reads “PLEASE DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO THE BEGGARS, INSTEAD DIRECT THEM TO ONE OF THE MANY PROGRAMS SETUP TO HELP THEM”. I have personally seen this sign on multiple occasions. In other words brianj, HELP KEEP THE BEGGARS AWAY FROM THE TEMPLE GROUNDS BY GIVING THEM NO REASON TO BE THERE.

I just moved to Utah in February, and a week after arriving I went to the Salt Lake Temple. In front of the temple I found a female beggar who I have seen in the same spot on both of my last visits - six months and two years ago. Not giving money to beggars isn't about keeping the scum and inferiors out of site; it's about discouraging professional panhandling.

FACT: The church did build a mall as a buffer zone and NOT to make money. Taken from an article in the sltrib : “Keith B.McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers” or in other words brianj - BUFFER ZONE

You must be right. There's no way it could have been an urban revitalization project to improve downtown for people who live or work in the area as well as investors and growing businesses. Our beloved and humble leaders were just trying to keep the filth away from the Rameumptom.

FACT: The church purchased and took possession and control of a public street for the expressed purpose of security and so the church could CONTROL what happens on that street. In any other context this would meet the definition, if not the spirit of “commandeer”. Please look it up brianj and educate yourself! Personally I think it was a WISE thing to do!

To hold the belief brianj expressed requires the belief that God should bring the spiritually poor into the celestial kingdom to be taught and not keep them in spirit prison or God must be a hypocrite!

Everything I have seen has indicated the highly questionable deal, which is not an act of commandeering because it wasn't done by government using force (believe it or not I have a far larger vocabulary than the mean of the US population), was done to improve "security" by which they mean keeping antagonists away from the front of the temple as well as the entrance to the temple.I was able to attend the temple well before this highly questionable real estate acquisition and I recall entering the temple annex through the door on the north wall of Temple Square, passing a presence of antagonists.

You can pretend that pride is the reason for this deal, keeping the inferiors away, but if that was the case then what actions prompted the ACLU to sue the church? If only the inferior people will be kept away then why have people been arrested for attempting to distribute literature on the new plaza?

And if the Catholic church were to decide it is a WISE thing to purchase the block of South Temple in front of their beautiful Church of the Madeleine, are the odds of the city closing a busy street for some other religion any greater than one in infinity?

Your last sentence is fallacious and based on false equivalencies. You'll have to do better to convince me that it is God's will that the poor be kept far from the A̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶u̶m̶ ̶s̶y̶n̶a̶g̶o̶g̶u̶e̶ Salt Lake Temple.

I love when people try to "spindoctor" the facts. My entire point that you have MISSED...... AGAIN... is that its not the "poor" that anyone has a problem with. DO YOU GET IT YET!!!!!!!! Its the drugs, crime and other illicit BEHAVIOUR of the people that God does NOT want around or in his house and that is why JC actually got violent when he tossed out the trash or bad behaviour. Apparently the significance of THE HOUSE OF THE LORD is lost on you.

Being WISE and having PRIDE are very different things. I have no idea why you keep confusing them.

Im curious to know why you are symbolically telling mary that she should have sold the oil and given the money to the poor?

[shadow]

It's evident that Draper folks don't want the POOR in their 'hoods. There's already drugs in Draper, it's just that the rich have them. No room for the poor or poor druggies.

[DesertWonderer]

^^^Remind me again which community exactly is begging for the homeless to come there?

[mirkwood]

Its the drugs, crime and other illicit BEHAVIOUR of the people that God does NOT want around or in his house

I interact with the homeless population of downtown SLC on a regular basis. Every one of them that I had to talk to has admitted that they are drug users and thieves. Many of them are also quite violent. These are behaviors that are not welcome on church property. Bad behavior does not get a pass just because you are homeless.

[DesertWonderer]

Its the drugs, crime and other illicit BEHAVIOUR of the people that God does NOT want around or in his house

I interact with the homeless population of downtown SLC on a regular basis. Every one of them that I had to talk to has admitted that they are drug users and thieves. Many of them are also quite violent. These are behaviors that are not welcome on church property. Bad behavior does not get a pass just because you are homeless.

or near residential neighborhoods.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

It's evident that Draper folks don't want the POOR in their 'hoods. There's already drugs in Draper, it's just that the rich have them. No room for the poor or poor druggies.

Provo and Sugar House are following suit. Some folks do get it.

http://fox13now.com/2017/03/08/utah-hig ... -homeless/

A friend took this photo the other day and it is quite fitting. The Motel on St. Street and 3300 South

[brianj]

I love when people try to "spindoctor" the facts. My entire point that you have MISSED...... AGAIN... is that its not the "poor" that anyone has a problem with. DO YOU GET IT YET!!!!!!!! Its the drugs, crime and other illicit BEHAVIOUR of the people that God does NOT want around or in his house and that is why JC actually got violent when he tossed out the trash or bad behaviour. Apparently the significance of THE HOUSE OF THE LORD is lost on you.

Being WISE and having PRIDE are very different things. I have no idea why you keep confusing them.

Im curious to know why you are symbolically telling mary that she should have sold the oil and given the money to the poor?

Silly me. I thought the Savior kicked money changers out of the temple. I didn't realize He tossed them from streets adjacent to the temple.

Please contact the church immediately and correct them. Looking at John 2:14 at lds.org I see: " And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:"
Apparently that should be changed to: "And found i̶n near the temple..."

I don't understand how being wise but not having pride translates into angrily fighting any efforts to build services for the poor in the community because they are all criminals and drug users and beneath the middle class drug users. Utah has one of the highest rates of prescription drug abuse in the nation and one of the highest rates of death from prescription drug overdose in the nation. But that person who you'll hear speaking in sacrament meeting on Sunday looks like an upstanding member of the community so his or her drug abuse is acceptable. It's only the filthy scum I should have a problem with.

And what a beautiful ad hominem attack you concluded with! Comparing me with Judas Iscariot for saying that we shouldn't shove the needy out of sight is a leap that puts you on par with Evel Knevil!

I don't believe in giving money to beggars; instead I have donated to a variety of charities to help the needy. But I think that the next time I go to the Salt Lake Temple, as I walk past one of those beggars on the north side of Temple Square, I'll give them a buck and think of this conversation. And if a homeless shelter does open in Draper, I'll see if I can volunteer there to help those who need help.

[Sunain]

Its the drugs, crime and other illicit BEHAVIOUR of the people that God does NOT want around or in his house

I interact with the homeless population of downtown SLC on a regular basis. Every one of them that I had to talk to has admitted that they are drug users and thieves. Many of them are also quite violent. These are behaviors that are not welcome on church property. Bad behavior does not get a pass just because you are homeless.

The church and state provides some of the best services for the homeless anywhere in the United States, possibly in the world. Many of the homeless do not want to go through the programs that are freely available to them because it means getting them off drugs, alcohol, smoking and/or pot. The money they get from panhandling is just used to pay for their bad habits rather than help themselves.

Everything I have seen has indicated the highly questionable deal, which is not an act of commandeering because it wasn't done by government using force (believe it or not I have a far larger vocabulary than the mean of the US population), was done to improve "security" by which they mean keeping antagonists away from the front of the temple as well as the entrance to the temple.I was able to attend the temple well before this highly questionable real estate acquisition and I recall entering the temple annex through the door on the north wall of Temple Square, passing a presence of antagonists.

Security and safety play a large part in keeping people that are hostile away from temple square. There are a lot of young sister missionaries there as well as elderly. Temple square is patrolled 24/7 by security which deal with any incidents. There are multiple entrances to the SLC Temple. I personally remember entering 3 different ways, but there are more. The main entrance to the temple is/was at the North Wall across from the Conference Center and that is where protests with permits were/are to take place.

It is truly disheartening to hear that so many new homeless shelters are needed in the SLC area but I am glad that they are still trying to accommodate all those willing to participate in the homeless programs. Watching those videos in the opening of this thread is really telling of the current conditions of the people in Utah. The pride of the world has them by the throat even more so when I lived there. I sincerely hope that these aren't active members of the church. The way the people were talking and their attitudes towards the less fortunate will take more than an earthquake to change how they think.