Pls re-consider "yellow-dog prophecy" & other ex-officio

[BroJones]

Let us re-visit the "yellow-dog prophecy" purportedly by Brigham Young as related to Heber C. Kimball then verbally to Amanda Wilcox, which she finally recorded. Quoting from an article in the Ensign April 1979:

The other school of thought on the so-called “yellow dog” prophecy is that some members feel it is yet to occur. However, a study of the supposed source of the prophecy is helpful. It seems to have originated in a conversation between Heber C. Kimball and Amanda H. Wilcox in Salt Lake City in May 1868. She reports him as saying, “The western boundries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, ‘There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.’ ” (Prophetic Sayings of Heber C. Kimball to Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, n.p., n.d., p. 6.)
There seem to be a number of questions about the authenticity of this account since Heber C. Kimball was apparently in Provo, not Salt Lake, during the month of May. Also, no other record exists of Brigham Young making a similar statement. Ensign April 1979, article by Graham Doxey.

Thus, the "yellow-dog prophecy" was not given in an official setting, there is no official transcript whatsoever, and it is just the "personal notes" of a Sister Wilcox.

Should we therefore accept or shelve the "yellow dog prophecy"?

(Pls consider in light of the warning from the Brethren that (paraphrasing) we discount personal notes of even talks by GA's given at stake and ward meetings...

[a-train]

Waaa-Waaa-Waaa-Waawaawaawawawawawawa

-a-train

[pjbrownie]

I guess pray about it.

[naturelovertoo]

Heber C. Kimball spoke of a prophecy made by President Brigham Young in which he said that upon the return of the saints there would be no inhabitants in that area of Missouri to plague the Church.The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.
Heber C. Kimball, Deseret News, Church Department, May 23, 1931, p. 3. ( Italics added )

President Heber C. Kimball was quoted later with respect to the intensity of the tests: "The judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked, to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home; or in other words, the Gospel will be taken from the gentiles, and later on will be carried to the Jews."The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, 'when we return to that place there will not be as much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to the test that will try the very best of them."The pressure will become so great that the righteous among us will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes. . . . " Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall."
. J. Golden Kimball, in Conference Report, Oct. 1930, 59-60

The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail. Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to tests that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes. Then the prophet and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson County, Missouri, and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem." (Deseret News, May 23, 1931.)

[Captain Moroni]

So we can see that the yellow dog prophecy was repeated several times by GAs. I, therefore, give it great credence as compared to a memebrs' notes.

[jbalm]

Thus, the "yellow-dog prophecy" was not given in an official setting, there is no official transcript whatsoever, and it is just the "personal notes" of a Sister Wilcox.

Should we therefore accept or shelve the "yellow dog prophecy"?

(Pls consider in light of the warning from the Brethren that (paraphrasing) we discount personal notes of even talks by GA's given at stake and ward meetings...

Frankly, I think this prophecy, as well as all the other "unofficial" prophecies (if the unofficial statements can properly be termed "prophecies") should all be shelved.

These "prophecies" may be accurate in some respects, but they are unofficial for a reason. The statements in question are unofficial because either a) there is no confirmation that the statements were prophetic; or b) there are questions as to whether they were correctly recorded.

In short, the official stamp of approval isn't withheld because the Brethren wish to keep us in the dark. Quite the opposite. They don't want us to be misled.

To me, what to accept as prophecy is ridiculously simple. If it is a) an officially acknowledged statement that is b) made by someone with stewardship over you, and c) the Spirit confirms it to you personally, then it is a prophetic statement and should be treated accordingly.

If all three elements are not present, then the statement is at best good advice, and at worst pure speculation.

I've spouted off about stewardship numerous times on this board. Nobody seems to care, however, because it isn't as fun as piecing together fantasy scenarios based on a hodgepodge of unofficial statements.

Anyway, Dr. Jones, I direct this post at you primarily because I value your input, and wonder if you see any flaws in the methodical approach I've outlined for evaluating purportedly prophetic statements.

[naturelovertoo]

Since it was spoken of at Conference by Kimball, I put a lot of weight in it.

[shadow]

I've spouted off about stewardship numerous times on this board. Nobody seems to care, however, because it isn't as fun as piecing together fantasy scenarios based on a hodgepodge of unofficial statements.

That's your problem jbalm, you're no fun. How can we expect to look beyond the mark when you always bring us back to reality?

[jbalm]

Deleted.

[jbalm]

That's your problem jbalm, you're no fun.

It sounds like you think I only have one problem. Thanks, dude. That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time.

[shadow]

It sounds like you think I only have one problem. Thanks, dude. That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time.

jbalm, you're a wise virgin in my book.

[naturelovertoo]

jbalm
thanks for defending the stewardship issue. I agree. That is why I reference Prophets, Apostles etc when I quote.

[jbalm]

thanks for defending the stewardship issue.

Gladly.

[pjbrownie]

I first read about this when I was researching Gerald Lund's book, the Last Days. Frankly, it seems pretty credible to me.

Let me quote Isaiah, "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

You don't NEED the yellow dog prophecy to understand that in the Book of Mormon Isaiah chapters, its pretty clear that the saints will be tried, tested, with all kinds of tribulations until a remnant returns to redeem Zion. To the extent Missouri will be cleansed is incidental anyway--a remnant will go back and will redeem.

I frankly think that we don't just have to use the Ensign and Scriptures and that's it. Those are the best, but we have other resources (journals and testimonies, etc.) I think what the Brethren warn us about is placing faith in things that have credibility problems with respect to proven historocity. In that case, we go by the spirit and take it with a grain of salt. We can do our own research, and we have the spirit to guide us. Things should correlate and if they don't let's toss it aside.

[will]

Dr. Jones aren't you living in that location?

[ChelC]

jbalm, I had a dream last night that you were putting new fence posts up around your property and you discovered a buried box of gold bars. I'm positive the dream means that you are going to win the lottery, so sure I have goosebumps. Make sure you buy some lotto tickets okay?

[shadow]

jbalm, I had a dream last night that you were putting new fence posts up around your property and you discovered a buried box of gold bars. I'm positive the dream means that you are going to win the lottery, so sure I have goosebumps. Make sure you buy some lotto tickets okay?

They probably belong to Mark. It's just like jbalm to steal them (Mr. I.R.S. agent).

[Captain Moroni]

Is this the Steven Jones who BYU forced to retire because of his being a leader in the 911 truth movement?

[ChelC]

Yes captain, same dr. jones.

[Rob]

Should we therefore accept or shelve the "yellow dog prophecy"?

(Pls consider in light of the warning from the Brethren that (paraphrasing) we discount personal notes of even talks by GA's given at stake and ward meetings...

My two cents is encapsulated in the First Presidency Message, Ensign, August 1996, particularly:

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 135).

This is exactly the point I was arguing in another thread regarding blindly following men. We are required to inquire of the Spirit to know the veracity of the message regardless of the messenger.

[Captain Moroni]

Rob, I'm afraid that BY's warning goes very much unheeded by many saints that I know. Some seem to think that the GAs are infallible and will only do that which they are commanded to do. Very few seem to take seriously the command that we MUST be engaed in may good thgings without being commanded to do so.

[Captain Moroni]

Dr. Jones, I want you to know that you're one of my heros!!!! I'm curious. Did any of your fellow academics at BYU come to your defense?

You might remember that when you were going through all that trouble at BYU, I wrote a scathing e-mail to the key BYU people from your Dept. Chair, your Dean, and all the way to the BYU President and even some GAs. Obviously the "die was already cast" and judgement made in your case. I've sadly experienced something similar when my wife and I were serving as a Senior Couple Missionary at Nauvoo. Unrighteous dominion is growing rapidly in the Restored Gospel and nothing seems to be done about it except take further retribution on the one being charged.

I will never give any money again to BYU. I'm ashamed of them for the way they treat the academic rule of freedom of academic speach. It is SACRED foundation in academia.

If possible, please let us know IF you were forced to retire or did so voluntarily under no threat of retribution either academic or ecllesastically. In my case, total threats were used. No use to appeal to the GAs because IF I did so, my letter would simply NOT be read seriously but returned to the Mission President who was quilty of gross unrighteous dominion. I truly await for the One Mighty and Strong to come and set the Church in order as prophesied by JS in the D+C.

[BroJones]

Great comments -- I especially appreciated the reminder of BY's comments. Could you get the link to that entire article?

yes, Lezlee and I and one son are now in MO, fixing up the place...
Lezlee and I retain our main residence in rural central Utah, where we expect to be most of the time, for a while.

Thanks, Captain! Sorry to hear about your experience in Nauvoo... hope it did not involve LD who I'm acquainted with...
I do not have much to say about the BYU matter, other than what was written here some time ago... and gotta run to the store now.
(I was not given much information certainly NO threats "eclesiastically." I hope to learn more in the millennium. )
Answer this, and perhaps we'll both know more -- Why did BYU grant to VP Dick Cheney an honorary PhD in (as recall) Public Service? As a private and responsible citizen of the US, loving my country, I had called for his impeachment (meaning fair presentation of data and fair trial) a few months before being put on Admin leave... Seeking for "redress for grievances" such as apparent lies that led to invasion of Iraq and concerns about his 9/11 actions etc.

[naturelovertoo]

Rob,
Thanks for:
" Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 135)."
If a person is close to Heavenly Father he will have the spirit whisper a second testimony of what our leaders tell us.
Such a leader just spoke in the June 2008 Ensign, First Presidency Message.
Pres Eyring says:
Looking for the path to safety in the counsel of prophets makes sense to those with strong faith. When a prophet speaks, those with little faith may think that they hear only a wise man giving good advice. Then if his counsel seems comfortable and reasonable, squaring with what they want to do, they take it. If it does not, they either consider it faulty advice or they see their circumstances as justifying their being an exception to the counsel. Those without faith may think that they hear only men seeking to exert influence for some selfish motive. They may mock and deride, as did a man named Korihor, with these words recorded in the Book of Mormon: “And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges” (Alma 30:27).

Sometimes we will receive counsel that we cannot understand or that seems not to apply to us, even after careful prayer and thought. Don’t discard the counsel, but hold it close. If someone you trusted handed you what appeared to be nothing more than sand with the promise that it contained gold, you might wisely hold it in your hand awhile, shaking it gently. Every time I have done that with counsel from a prophet, after a time the gold flakes have begun to appear, and I have been grateful.

[Captain Moroni]

It is VERY difficult to be living a HG driven life IF it seems to others that you're NOT being obedient to the the GAs even though they are NOT infallible. I always seek a witness from the HG. Sometimes it comes immdeiately like it did when GBH announce the PEF. I KNEW that was inspired and my wife and I are willing 1/2 half of our estate to the PEF.