"Visions of Glory" a false book

[paulrobots]

. I believe there is no spencer, and the author is laughing all the way to the bank.

The author died shortly after the book was published. I doubt he laughed very much.

Huh, my bad.

[Todd]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

So, bottom line, you don't have a reference about where spencer appeared in the form of a girl? Ok.

Since you don't own the book and haven't read it in a long time, I did several word searches in my e-book copy for "angel", "girl", "woman", "appeared", "mission" "help", etc. and could not find anything to corroborate your claim. In fact the only thing I found was the quote I posted previously which says, " Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female."

For the record I have similar problems with spencer's story as you do, so you are preaching to the choir. I just think it's more effective to make accurate statements to forward a position.

Cheers.

[brianj]

I pulled the book up on a Kindle app and searched time. In the first 400 hits I didn't see a single reference to time travel. In visions Spencer mentioned the vision jumping around in time, but he didn't mention his physical body traveling through time.

[GrandMasterB]

I pulled the book up on a Kindle app and searched time. In the first 400 hits I didn't see a single reference to time travel. In visions Spencer mentioned the vision jumping around in time, but he didn't mention his physical body traveling through time.

Hmmm. He visited the past through portals, in disguise, to try and save people from the tribulations, which had already happened and were over in his time. And that is not synonymous with time travel or traveling back in time? I don't know how you reasoned through that one, but congratulation, you did!

[brianj]

I pulled the book up on a Kindle app and searched time. In the first 400 hits I didn't see a single reference to time travel. In visions Spencer mentioned the vision jumping around in time, but he didn't mention his physical body traveling through time.

Hmmm. He visited the past through portals, in disguise, to try and save people from the tribulations, which had already happened and were over in his time. And that is not synonymous with time travel or traveling back in time? I don't know how you reasoned through that one, but congratulation, you did!

Let's see... somebody mentions time travel, I search every instance of the four letter sequence TIME, I don't find any reference to travel through time, and you say that I am reasoning something doesn't exist. Evel Knevil couldn't have made that jump!

How about this: I just searched the word past and found 39 instances in his book. On page 176 Spencer says that he could see the past, present, and future in a specific location as it pertained to his assignment, but doesn't mention time travel. On page 211 he claimed that seer stones allowed one to see the past, present, or future but again he doesn't mention traveling through time.

So to recap, I didn't find a single use of the word time in VoG that related to time travel. I didn't find a single use of the word past that related to time travel. What's next? Additionally of the 23 instances the word travel appears, there isn't a single reference to travel through time. I didn't find any reference to time travel using the word visit.

Reviewing the section of the book regarding visits to groups coming to Zion, I see references to visiting people, as well as seeing their past, but no mention of traveling through time to do so.

Perhaps if such a statement really exists in the book you could provide a page number or a quote instead of accusing me of twisting the meaning of words in the book.

[AI2.0]

Even if Spencer saw this detailed vision, we would be wise to assume some of it is not literal.

If these NDE's are real, they are not literal and I think that's where people go wrong.

I read Visions of Glory and found it interesting--some parts wrong true but others did not. I also don't know if the book is a true rendition of what 'Spencer' experienced because it was interpreted and presented by John Pontius and I'm sure he couldn't help but put his own 'spin' in it. One thing, Spencer never tried to sell more books or go on the lecture circuit.

[AI2.0]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

So, bottom line, you don't have a reference about where spencer appeared in the form of a girl? Ok.

Since you don't own the book and haven't read it in a long time, I did several word searches in my e-book copy for "angel", "girl", "woman", "appeared", "mission" "help", etc. and could not find anything to corroborate your claim. In fact the only thing I found was the quote I posted previously which says, " Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female."

For the record I have similar problems with spencer's story as you do, so you are preaching to the choir. I just think it's more effective to make accurate statements to forward a position.

Cheers.

I also don't remember him claiming to appear as a little girl. I think it's important to be accurate in criticisms. It's misleading to criticize 'Spencer' for things that are not true and would have appreciated a reference from Desertwonderer to back up his claim.

I also didn't have any problem with what Spencer said in that quote above. It was one of the things that rang true when I read it.

[Sir]

I'm more open to crazy ideas like the ten tribes living in hollow earth because I've seen UFO's first hand with my companion and I can't explain it. That's besides the point... I found a nde from an unrelated guy that also saw spirits possessing vulnerable addicted bodies:
"They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over." From Dr. George Ritchie. That's one idea I've never heard before coming from 2 unrelated people.

[GrandMasterB]

I pulled the book up on a Kindle app and searched time. In the first 400 hits I didn't see a single reference to time travel. In visions Spencer mentioned the vision jumping around in time, but he didn't mention his physical body traveling through time.

Hmmm. He visited the past through portals, in disguise, to try and save people from the tribulations, which had already happened and were over in his time. And that is not synonymous with time travel or traveling back in time? I don't know how you reasoned through that one, but congratulation, you did!

Let's see... somebody mentions time travel, I search every instance of the four letter sequence TIME, I don't find any reference to travel through time, and you say that I am reasoning something doesn't exist. Evel Knevil couldn't have made that jump!

How about this: I just searched the word past and found 39 instances in his book. On page 176 Spencer says that he could see the past, present, and future in a specific location as it pertained to his assignment, but doesn't mention time travel. On page 211 he claimed that seer stones allowed one to see the past, present, or future but again he doesn't mention traveling through time.

So to recap, I didn't find a single use of the word time in VoG that related to time travel. I didn't find a single use of the word past that related to time travel. What's next? Additionally of the 23 instances the word travel appears, there isn't a single reference to travel through time. I didn't find any reference to time travel using the word visit.

Reviewing the section of the book regarding visits to groups coming to Zion, I see references to visiting people, as well as seeing their past, but no mention of traveling through time to do so.

Perhaps if such a statement really exists in the book you could provide a page number or a quote instead of accusing me of twisting the meaning of words in the book.

I see how I was able to waste more of your time. Get it? Time?

[GrandMasterB]

I pulled the book up on a Kindle app and searched time. In the first 400 hits I didn't see a single reference to time travel. In visions Spencer mentioned the vision jumping around in time, but he didn't mention his physical body traveling through time.

Hmmm. He visited the past through portals, in disguise, to try and save people from the tribulations, which had already happened and were over in his time. And that is not synonymous with time travel or traveling back in time? I don't know how you reasoned through that one, but congratulation, you did!

Let's see... somebody mentions time travel, I search every instance of the four letter sequence TIME, I don't find any reference to travel through time, and you say that I am reasoning something doesn't exist. Evel Knevil couldn't have made that jump!

How about this: I just searched the word past and found 39 instances in his book. On page 176 Spencer says that he could see the past, present, and future in a specific location as it pertained to his assignment, but doesn't mention time travel. On page 211 he claimed that seer stones allowed one to see the past, present, or future but again he doesn't mention traveling through time.

So to recap, I didn't find a single use of the word time in VoG that related to time travel. I didn't find a single use of the word past that related to time travel. What's next? Additionally of the 23 instances the word travel appears, there isn't a single reference to travel through time. I didn't find any reference to time travel using the word visit.

Reviewing the section of the book regarding visits to groups coming to Zion, I see references to visiting people, as well as seeing their past, but no mention of traveling through time to do so.

Perhaps if such a statement really exists in the book you could provide a page number or a quote instead of accusing me of twisting the meaning of words in the book.

You must not be using your kindle correctly. I found this and it has both the word time and past in the same sentence.

"We could go to any group, even into their past, to prepare them, then move forward in time and visit them again” (177)

[AI2.0]

I'm more open to crazy ideas like the ten tribes living in hollow earth because I've seen UFO's first hand with my companion and I can't explain it. That's besides the point... I found a nde from an unrelated guy that also saw spirits possessing vulnerable addicted bodies:
"They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over." From Dr. George Ritchie. That's one idea I've never heard before coming from 2 unrelated people.

This from Dr. Ritchie's 'Return from Tomorrow' rang true with me also, and that book has been around since the late 70's I believe. It also makes sense that if we suffer from physical addictions in life, we will suffer even worse with them when we have no way to satisfy them, being in spirit form. I felt 'Spencer's' viewing the man looking at pornography rang true (and it may be that it was someone he knew and loved, not a random stranger). It can be a form of addiction in some people. Just like some can drink alcohol and can take or leave it, there are various forms of need and some need that 'fix' more than others.

[AlbertaBronco]

Work of fiction or an actual vision. It doesn't really matter. It was a captivating read.

[DRC53]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

[larsenb]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

Amen to that one.

[Bublick]

Church callings and positions don't equal church endorsement. We all know or have heard of mission presidents or bishops that have been excommunicated for affairs or other great sins. Even John D Lee was called to high leadership after MMM.

[GrandMasterB]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

I don't doubt that this could happen but there is no reason to believe this happened. More hearsay and rumors. If he was called to be a bishop I doubt the 12 were directly involved in that. That is done at the Stake Presidency level.

[DRC53]

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

I don't doubt that this could happen but there is no reason to believe this happened. More hearsay and rumors. If he was called to be a bishop I doubt the 12 were directly involved in that. That is done at the Stake Presidency level.

I'm not saying that he was called by the apostles. The call to be bishop would have had to go through the first presidency for approval, however. If the Brethren had any concerns, his call to be a bishop would never have been approved. More importantly, I believe that a call to be bishop comes from the Lord. Obviously, the Lord had no concerns.

You can continue to doubt if you'd like. I just wish conversations like these could be more civil and assertions made in support of a position must be more transparent. I have been clear that what I'm saying is based on what I was told. I have every reason to believe the information I received. You, on the other hand, have made statements that certain things are in the book in an effort to discredit the book and Spencer. Such activity is plain being hazardous with the truth and discredits what you say. Then, you make judgments about Spencer himself when you know nothing about him except for inaccurate information you erroneously say was in the book.

I can appreciate opposing opinions about the book, but the discussions become meaningless when based on either ignorant or deceitful rhetoric.

[Mcox]

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

I don't doubt that this could happen but there is no reason to believe this happened. More hearsay and rumors. If he was called to be a bishop I doubt the 12 were directly involved in that. That is done at the Stake Presidency level.

I'm not saying that he was called by the apostles. The call to be bishop would have had to go through the first presidency for approval, however. If the Brethren had any concerns, his call to be a bishop would never have been approved. More importantly, I believe that a call to be bishop comes from the Lord. Obviously, the Lord had no concerns.

You can continue to doubt if you'd like. I just wish conversations like these could be more civil and assertions made in support of a position must be more transparent. I have been clear that what I'm saying is based on what I was told. I have every reason to believe the information I received. You, on the other hand, have made statements that certain things are in the book in an effort to discredit the book and Spencer. Such activity is plain being hazardous with the truth and discredits what you say. Then, you make judgments about Spencer himself when you know nothing about him except for inaccurate information you erroneously say was in the book.

I can appreciate opposing opinions about the book, but the discussions become meaningless when based on either ignorant or deceitful rhetoric.

I have heard the opposite, I hear he has gone off on weird paths straying from the church. The doctrine in this book is not sound.

[DRC53]

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

I don't doubt that this could happen but there is no reason to believe this happened. More hearsay and rumors. If he was called to be a bishop I doubt the 12 were directly involved in that. That is done at the Stake Presidency level.

I'm not saying that he was called by the apostles. The call to be bishop would have had to go through the first presidency for approval, however. If the Brethren had any concerns, his call to be a bishop would never have been approved. More importantly, I believe that a call to be bishop comes from the Lord. Obviously, the Lord had no concerns.

You can continue to doubt if you'd like. I just wish conversations like these could be more civil and assertions made in support of a position must be more transparent. I have been clear that what I'm saying is based on what I was told. I have every reason to believe the information I received. You, on the other hand, have made statements that certain things are in the book in an effort to discredit the book and Spencer. Such activity is plain being hazardous with the truth and discredits what you say. Then, you make judgments about Spencer himself when you know nothing about him except for inaccurate information you erroneously say was in the book.

I can appreciate opposing opinions about the book, but the discussions become meaningless when based on either ignorant or deceitful rhetoric.

I have heard the opposite, I hear he has gone off on weird paths straying from the church. The doctrine in this book is not sound.

You've got him confused with someone else then.

[Mcox]

I was thinking of Thomas Harrison, isn't that "spencer"? I have friends who are therapists and know of him, they reported that he was off the path. Rumors or truth?

[DesertWonderer]

Actually, it was Spencer that was time travelling as he stepped into his mirror / portal / teleporter that was in his office in the NJ temple right next to Christ's office! Which of course happened after he shape-shifted into the form of a girl (For those of you who have not read this book, no I'm not making that up).

=))

Is this what you are referring to desertwonder?


" It may seem strange that we were changed, but history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels. Male angels always appeared as male, and females always appeared as female, but in any guise we were inspired to take."

If not could you direct me to where he said he shape shifted into a girl? Or are you just making that up?

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. BTW it was AFTER we was made a bishop that it was discovered who "Spencer" was. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility. Spencer's false doctrine speak loud and clear for its self.

LOL SHOW me proof of those statements underlined.

[GrandMasterB]

I could be wrong but I thought in one of his missions to some individual he went in the from of a girl to help some person. I don't have the book any longer so I can't confirm it. Just for the record, there is so much so wrong with this book I have no need to make up stuff to refute it.

Going back to your quote from the book: "history is filled with stories of angels appearing in many forms, sometimes as old men, young women, or even a child’s playmate. Yet we know that angels are ageless and not old or young, so they obviously come to us in the form that blesses us most. The only difference here was that we were now those angels." Where is anything in this statement corroborated by scripture? "Stories" hold little value in corroborating Spencer's new doctrine.

Speaking of stories, it appears that a significant portion of Spencer's tribulation events are mostly just "creative use" of previous stories that have been proven to have no validity (i.e. parts of Patriarch Evans, Sarah Menet, John Taylor visions.

Speaking of creative use of previous works, I really enjoyed the scenes from The Matrix and Ghost that it appears he incorporated too.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

Bottom line for me is this guy is no different from JR, SM, etc in that they have mental health challenges, read conspiracy theories, false visions and it scrambles about in their heads and they think it happened to them.

There actually is a big difference between Spencer and the others. After this book was published and reportedly reviewed by the Brethren, including an Apostle, he was called to be a bishop. The reason I see that as significant is, while not a church endorsement, the Lord and the first presidency had no concerns about entrusting him with the responsibilities of being a bishop. From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling. This man has credibility with the twelve apostles.

Y'all really need to be more restrained in offering opinions about people of whom you know nothing. Making such judgments does not present well and diminishes your credibility.

I don't doubt that this could happen but there is no reason to believe this happened. More hearsay and rumors. If he was called to be a bishop I doubt the 12 were directly involved in that. That is done at the Stake Presidency level.

I'm not saying that he was called by the apostles. The call to be bishop would have had to go through the first presidency for approval, however. If the Brethren had any concerns, his call to be a bishop would never have been approved. More importantly, I believe that a call to be bishop comes from the Lord. Obviously, the Lord had no concerns.

You can continue to doubt if you'd like. I just wish conversations like these could be more civil and assertions made in support of a position must be more transparent. I have been clear that what I'm saying is based on what I was told. I have every reason to believe the information I received. You, on the other hand, have made statements that certain things are in the book in an effort to discredit the book and Spencer. Such activity is plain being hazardous with the truth and discredits what you say. Then, you make judgments about Spencer himself when you know nothing about him except for inaccurate information you erroneously say was in the book.

I can appreciate opposing opinions about the book, but the discussions become meaningless when based on either ignorant or deceitful rhetoric.

Where exactly was I attempting to discredit Spencer? All I said is he said he could travel in time which is in VoG. And others tried to suggest it ever said that when clearly it does. They are the ones discrediting this Spencer guy.

[inho]

I was thinking of Thomas Harrison, isn't that "spencer"? I have friends who are therapists and know of him, they reported that he was off the path. Rumors or truth?

Don't know if that is rumors or truth, but he is still serving as a bishop. I just checked it in the Church Directory of Organizations and Leaders. That, obviously, does not mean anything. The call comes from Stake president, and even though it is approved by Salt Lake, it is more like a formality.

I also wonder what off the path means. Is he off the path as a therapist or as a follower of Christ? He gave a talk in the Hebraeus Foundation Zion conference last year and the title of the talk was "Breaking the Cycle of Generational Dysfunction". This sounds like something that might prompt therapists to say that he is off the path (as therapist). Haven't heard the talk, so I might be wrong.

From what I understand, he regularly meets with the twelve on matters outside of his calling.

This is just hearsay, and I doubt it.

[Robin Hood]

I'm more open to crazy ideas like the ten tribes living in hollow earth because I've seen UFO's first hand with my companion and I can't explain it. That's besides the point... I found a nde from an unrelated guy that also saw spirits possessing vulnerable addicted bodies:
"They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over." From Dr. George Ritchie. That's one idea I've never heard before coming from 2 unrelated people.

George Ritchie's "Return From Tomorrow" is a very well known book.
I would be surprised if "Spencer" was unfamiliar with it's contents.

[DRC53]

Church callings and positions don't equal church endorsement. We all know or have heard of mission presidents or bishops that have been excommunicated for affairs or other great sins. Even John D Lee was called to high leadership after MMM.

I clearly said that his calling is not a church endorsement of the substance of the book. It is, however, evident that the Brethren, notwithstanding the book, are not concerned about him presiding over a ward. If there was any concern about the book, he would not be a bishop.