www.MormonProphecy.com

[Mark]

Cosmism in the Restored Gospel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVMCxmi ... 10E81A5765

I read Anthony's books and found them all fascinating reads. It is interesting stuff. However I have noticed over the past few years a disenchantment with the church found with Anthony and many of his followers. What's up with that? He seems pissed that he doesn't get the attention he deserves with all his stuff. Pride perhaps? Sorry to see his path which seems to be leading him away from the restored church. Maybe I am reading him wrong?

[Robin Hood]

Cosmism in the Restored Gospel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVMCxmi ... 10E81A5765

I read Anthony's books and found them all fascinating reads. It is interesting stuff. However I have noticed over the past few years a disenchantment with the church found with Anthony and many of his followers. What's up with that? He seems pissed that he doesn't get the attention he deserves with all his stuff. Pride perhaps? Sorry to see his path which seems to be leading him away from the restored church. Maybe I am reading him wrong?

I got that impression too. Thought I was just being a little too sensitive.
Maybe he is so convinced his interpretations are true that he doesn't understand why other people don't concur, and that frustrates him.
I've seen this kind of thing before.

Truth is, he makes some pretty large assumptions in order to get to where he wants us to be.
Personally I think these assumptions are unjustified and maybe there are enough people out there who feel the same way, or who just aren't bothered, to have discouraged him. This is why we need to stay grounded, not go off too far on tangents (however interesting), and not become zealots.

[brianj]

Here is another interesting concept: we are all adopted into the house of Israel, the word Israel is constructed from the three Egyptian gods Isis, Ra, and El. The elephant here is why would the chosen people of God take on the name of three Egyptian's gods? Why do we today identify under the name of Egyptian gods? Some will say "who cares? nothing to see here... It's just a name from the culture in which they lived." and others might stop and think 'maybe there is more to be learnt from history, maybe we are taught with ancient symbolism in our temples for a reason'. Why did Hugh Nibley study Egyptology in depth and say it is the most authentic of the ancient cultures?

What is your source for this claim?
Whatever your source is, it is wrong. The origin of El was east of Egypt and El was never part of Egyptian religion.

Regarding your question of why the chosen people, the descendants of Israel, took the name Israel upon themselves: they did so because of revelation through leaders of the church organized at that time.

[brianj]

I still feel more comfortable with the Earth as "A" interpretation.
To me it clearly depicts the earth flanked by 2 other bodies, with the sun and moon orbiting the earth. We "know" the sun doesn't orbit the earth, but did Joseph; and, more importantly, did Philo Dibble?

Those two bodies could be Venus and Mars.
We know Venus is an intriguing misnomer, given that it spins the opposite way to the other planets, and is very prominent in ancient mythology, and we know there is a significant ancient mythological link with Mars too.
Are you aware of the theory that it was Venus going walkabout that lit up the night sky for the Nephites? The record clearly states that the sun set as normal, but it didn't get dark.
Just a thought.

The Geocentric model, the belief that Earth was at the center of the universe, started on its way out in the 1500s when Copernicus presented his Heliocentric model of the universe. Though it took more than a century, the Catholic church finally accepted that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe more than a century before Joseph Smith's first vision. By the 19th century, when Joseph Smith lived, it was becoming generally accepted that the sun wasn't the center of the universe but is one star among many. There is no way Smith or DIbble could have believed in a geocentric model of the universe.

[Robin Hood]

I still feel more comfortable with the Earth as "A" interpretation.
To me it clearly depicts the earth flanked by 2 other bodies, with the sun and moon orbiting the earth. We "know" the sun doesn't orbit the earth, but did Joseph; and, more importantly, did Philo Dibble?

Those two bodies could be Venus and Mars.
We know Venus is an intriguing misnomer, given that it spins the opposite way to the other planets, and is very prominent in ancient mythology, and we know there is a significant ancient mythological link with Mars too.
Are you aware of the theory that it was Venus going walkabout that lit up the night sky for the Nephites? The record clearly states that the sun set as normal, but it didn't get dark.
Just a thought.

There is no way Smith or DIbble could have believed in a geocentric model of the universe.

Of course there was; there are people who believe it today!

Besides, I'm not saying that is definitely what they believed, I'm saying that appears to be what the drawing depicts. The drawing could depict a heliocentric model, but there are no clues that it does.

[WickerWeaver]

There is quite a thread on this topic started back in 2012 here: viewtopic.php?t=21475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact, if I remember right, this is the thread that led me to the discovery of this forum a year or two ago when I was doing some searches on EU theory and how it may correlate with LDS theology. Well before this, I discovered Anthony's blog and website among the Mormon blogosphere via a link from another blog a number of years ago and subsequently found his YouTube channel which, at the time, only had a few short few videos discussing and illustrating the ancient polar configuration from the Dibble document and his Joshua and the Long Day series of videos. Back then, Anthony did not have the sets of courses he now has available through his website or the additional presentations now on his YouTube channel. I was able to find his books at my local library at the time and was able to read through them all. It was definitely a paradigm shift for me. While he may not have hit the nail on the head in the details proposed in his books then, I do remember feeling like there was something truthful there, something in the right direction that was worthy of further learning, exploration, and consideration. It certainly struck me as something much more plausible than the "Kolob Theorem" I had read some time before stumbling into Anthony's stuff.

From there, I was led to discover the Thunderbolts Project, largely spearheaded by non-LDS scholars (and non-religious as far as I can perceive) David Talbot, Donald Scott, & Wallace Thornhill, who all apparently found inspiration in the studies of the late Immanuel Velikovsky. Somewhere in the same time frame, I stumbled upon Talbot's Symbols of an Alien Sky on YouTube back when it only existed as 10-15 minute segments someone had uploaded, before the Thunderbolts Project put it up in full and exploded their own channel with a few other narrative documentaries and other thought-provoking lectures, presentations and other content ever since. I became truly fascinated at that point and ever since, in between so many other interests I have, I've bounced back and forth trying to follow updates from both Anthony and the Thunderbolts Project, particularly their YouTube channels, among other sources related to the electric universe theory. It has been fascinating to watch the Thunderbolts Project movement pick up steam and grow with their annual conferences, their video productions, and all the other content they share on their website, Facebook, and so forth. It seems like every year now, more and more scholars of various fields including physics, mathematics, astronomy, geology, biology, etc...are starting to corroborate the idea that electro-magnetic forces have a significant and major role, if not dominant role, in much of our universe, from the atomic and subatomic levels, to the molecular and cellular levels, to events across inter-galactic space.

Back to Anthony, I have since watched most of his courses that he has since made available through his website online. Unfortunately, there was/is a cost, but it's understandable given that there probably is a significant cost to hosting such content through the way it is setup, and I can only assumed he'd like to use any leftover funds generated from those courses to keep software updated for creating new video content himself, and other such related expenses, etc. I haven't yet gone through the last few courses because I ultimately got side-tracked with other interests at the time. I may still finish out the courses in the near future, but at this point, it seems that most of what was in his prior courses I've gone through is now discussed in many of the other freely available lectures and presentations Anthony has recently given in library settings and what not with small groups that he has since made available on his YouTube Channel. Those too require a lot of time to sit through (there are some that I still haven't watched all the way through) but of those I have, they too are rather fascinating and thought provoking, including the Conference Center one as discussed above in this thread.

And yes, Mark Pinnel, I recognize your name from that video where Anthony credits you in with parts of that specific Conference Center presentation. You probably could have started out this thread by simply introducing who you are and your relationship with Anthony and then putting his studies and presentations out there as food for thought for others like myself who may find the whole new paradigm and concept it presents on the creation and the universe as we know it as something plausible and worth further study and pondering. Instead, as Robin Hood noted, I have to agree that it almost seems like just a spam ad solely trying to drive traffic to Anthony's site rather than generate a thoughtful discussion. Thankfully, it looks like the latter has occurred.

So I will add further here that I also find it interesting to have discovered via the Conference Center video and since confirmed that Immanuel Velikovsky is mentioned in the Church's Old Testament Student Manuel within the first section giving commentary on Genesis 1-2 and the creation:

Although the majority of geologists, astronomers, and other scientists believe that even this long period is not adequate to explain the physical evidence found in the earth, there are a small number of reputable scholars who disagree. These claim that the geologic clocks are misinterpreted and that tremendous catastrophes in the earth’s history speeded up the processes that normally may take thousands of years. They cite evidence supporting the idea that thirteen thousand years is not an unrealistic time period. Immanuel Velikovsky, for example, wrote three books amassing evidence that worldwide catastrophic upheavals have occurred in recent history, and he argued against uniformitarianism, the idea that the natural processes in evidence now have always prevailed at the same approximate rate of uniformity. These books are Worlds in Collision, Ages in Chaos, and Earth in Upheaval. Two Latter-day Saint scientists, Melvin A. Cook and M. Garfield Cook, have also advocated this theory in their book Science and Mormonism. A short summary of the Cooks’ approach can be found in Paul Cracroft’s article “How Old Is the Earth?” (Improvement Era, Oct. 1964, pp. 827–30, 852).

The full text can be found here: https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testamen ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For those who don't know much about Immanuel Velikovsky, he was a Russian born Jew who went on to become a doctor specializing in psychiatry and a scholar who wrote and published books (as mentioned in the paragraph above) that reinterpreted the events that led to current physical state of the earth. His studies and observations led him to the conclusion that our skies appeared much differently to ancient civilizations than we see them today and that this all had, at certain times, had a catastrophic effect on the earth and its inhabitants in addition to playing a huge role in the origins of the mythology, symbols, rituals, rites, and other traditions that have come to be among ancient cultures and civilizations all across the globe and from which many still exist in our present day societies and cultures. Unfortunately, Velikovsky became a point of great controversy among mainstream science and astronomy circles where he was quickly dismissed and discredited rather than being allowed to have his ideas further considered and researched and therefore not a name or concept most people will learn about through current standard education and textbooks. Most notably, to my understanding, Carl Sagan practically vilified him and his ideas. However, his works have resurfaced again over the last couple of decades, not only providing the inspiration and framework for which Anthony Larsen has made reference to with his own gospel connected concepts, but also for these other non-LDS scholars I've mentioned among the Thunderbolts Project and elsewhere out there.

The main idea from Velikovsky is that the earth and it's current landscape has been largely sculpted by catastrophism (i.e. close encounters with celestial bodies that can very quickly result in not just significant changes across the sky but also the earth's landscape via powerful electric discharges and so forth) rather than the long held view of uniformitarianism among main stream scientists and geologists (i.e. millions of years of consistent uniform erosion from wind, water, ice, etc). Scholars like David Talbot who have done in depth studies into comparative mythology have found an overwhelming amount of common abstracts among many symbols, archetypes, rites, rituals, etc...from across the globe that by themselves seem rather odd, mysterious, and even absurd, but when compared against each other, have all too much in common to be dismissed as coincidence. Then you have scholars like Donald Scott and Wallace Thornhill and a growing body of others now who have studied and researched and continue to study and research the physics for a model of the universe that is powered and governed by electro-magnetic forces, which all scientifically explains just how much Velikovsky's theories founded in catastrophism could very well be possible. Lots of new discoveries and information have come about recently that Velikovsky didn't have during his time to give further support to his unique conclusions. It may all still be perceived as pseudo-science among many, if not most, of their mainstream peers, it's a scientific model and movement nonetheless that is gaining traction among many other peers that are finding it worthy of further consideration and study. While I'm no expert on the matter myself, I'd think it hard to argue against much of the lab observations and other scientific findings with plasma physics and other electro-magnetic forces now being studied among and presented by these scholars in addition to other related fields of study.

Also, consider Nephi in the Book of Mormon and how he was instructed/prompted to reach forth his hand so as to send forth a shock to his brothers. I would say that for a believing Latter Day Saint at least, this event may serve as additional support for the theory of an electric universe and the idea of electric fields all about us. Add to that the fact that the Church continues to allow a mention of Velikovsky and his books (and by extension his ideas) in one of its official manuals published as a gospel study aid, then I think that's all the more reason for a Latter Day Saint to study up more on his ideas and the body of scientific and other scholarly work now being done which is largely inspired by his ideas.

And while the details might not be quite dead on yet with much to still discover and confirm, I do think Anthony Larsen is on to something of worth and has made a compelling case for many of our own symbols and practices, both within the restored gospel as taught and revealed through Joseph Smith, and throughout the other scriptures and traditions of Christianity, as being rooted in the same origins as that of so many other ancient cultures. In my opinion, what has since been observed and researched among those with the Thunderbolts Project and elsewhere has only provided further corroboration and context to much of what Anthony Larsen has put out there, especially this Philo Dibble sketch from Joseph Smith of the three (four?) orbs aligned in a polar configuration. In that context, many of the images and events described in the Book of Revelation and elsewhere in both the Bible and other LDS canon, take on a whole new meaning that makes a lot more sense. It is a major paradigm change, but an enlightening one.

That all said, I am still struggling to make all the connections to the Temple with all the symbols and so forth that Anthony keeps alluding too. It's not that many of the same symbols and geometry aren't there, but I struggle to see the deeper significance they may represent beyond reflecting what may have been witnessed in the ancient skies. Particularly as it all correlates with Genesis and the creation account. Larsen sometimes seems to imply, like Talbot, that Adam and Eve were mythical characters as well, a metaphor or parable for telling the story played out in the ancient skies, and thus not real people who partook of real fruit who literally became the parents of mortality and the perpetuation of the human race. So I need some more clarity on that.

I also need clarity in seeing how all these configurations allegedly seen in the ancient sky connect with specific principles and concepts within LDS core doctrine and theology, particularly the importance of knowing that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, our Savior and Redeemer, and the Plan of Salvation and Christ's role in that plan. In other words, while I certainly understand and easily see how so many of these symbols could represent events and configurations allegedly witnessed in the sky by ancient civilizations, I'm not sure I fully understand what made/makes these particular events and configurations and the universal symbols that supposedly represent them so important to prophets, past and present,to be recorded metaphorically or parabolically in scripture and to be found on and in LDS temples and rituals, and other structures like the Conference Center?

What significance, role, or connection do these celestial events and symbols have in our ability and need to learn of Christ, accept Him, receive of His ordinances, strive to live according to his example, and obtain his attributes in our path toward eternal salvation and exaltation? What do these things teach us about our relationship to God, our potential, and the plan for us as His children to achieve that potential? Were said events in the skies meant to represent and portray events such as the pre-mortal battle, the creation and paradise, the fall, the birth of the Savior, His triumph over sin, His resurrection, the apostasy, the restoration, etc? Does each symbol that came about represent not just an event witnessed in the sky, but also a sacred and important gospel principle and/or ordinance within the gospel essential to our salvation and exaltation and if so, what are some of the essential principles expressed through some of these symbols? Anthony Larsen speaks a lot of these symbols found around the temple and I assume the endowment, but I fail to grasp the how the temple endowment supposedly portrays what may have played out in the skies, and again, what would what which may have been seen in the skies have to do with the role of Christ and our salvation and exaltation? Is he also implying that the ancient celestial events, if they indeed happened, was a portrayal of the temple endowment itself?

Were these events played out in the ancient skies simply a way for God to instruct the inhabitants of earth about the Plan of Salvation and the gospel of Christ via a visual parable in a celestial theater of sorts for all to see or what is it much more than that? That'd be neat and interesting enough if it was just that, but again, I don't see how knowing that now would be any more revelatory than the instruction we already receive for establishing and nurturing a relationship with God and the Holy Spirit and being able to understand what God's will is for us, collectively and individually.

Sorry if I sound redundant with these questions, but I'm having a hard time putting what I want to ask into words. I hope those questions make sense. In short, I do believe there is something truthful and of spiritual value to be had in all of this EU theory and 'symbols from an alien sky' as it were, but having a hard time seeing how it all becomes critically important in coming to an understanding of the fullness of the gospel and it's essential principles and ordinances as preached by Anthony Larsen. Is it all still interesting and fascinating? Absolutely! But of important significance? I'm having a hard time seeing how it builds on the basic precepts we're all still working to master.

So, despite my failure thus far to make the full connections to essential gospel truths with as much depth as Anthony seems to have done, I do feel that when it comes science and how the universe works, much of what is proposed in the EU model and theory does seem to harmonize much better with unique LDS theology and doctrine on the whole than does the gravity centric model that requires unproven dark matter, dark energy, and black holes to work. Ironically, there are those that find it absurd to have faith in non-scientifically proven concepts when it comes to matters of religion, but think it wholly appropriate to have faith in unproven and unseen concepts such as dark matter, dark energy, and black holes.

Here's a good insightful discussion on Electric Universe theory vs Mainstream Science:

Anyway, this turned out to be a lot more writing than I thought it would be, but I hope it provides some good insight and food for thought for others who comb through this thread, and maybe I'll receive some more clarity to my own questions and thoughts from any others that may be further along in their study of EU theory, catastrophism, the Gospel, and the concepts presented by Anthony Larsen.

[WickerWeaver]

Cosmism in the Restored Gospel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVMCxmi ... 10E81A5765

I read Anthony's books and found them all fascinating reads. It is interesting stuff. However I have noticed over the past few years a disenchantment with the church found with Anthony and many of his followers. What's up with that? He seems pissed that he doesn't get the attention he deserves with all his stuff. Pride perhaps? Sorry to see his path which seems to be leading him away from the restored church. Maybe I am reading him wrong?

I got that impression too. Thought I was just being a little too sensitive.
Maybe he is so convinced his interpretations are true that he doesn't understand why other people don't concur, and that frustrates him.
I've seen this kind of thing before.

Truth is, he makes some pretty large assumptions in order to get to where he wants us to be.
Personally I think these assumptions are unjustified and maybe there are enough people out there who feel the same way, or who just aren't bothered, to have discouraged him. This is why we need to stay grounded, not go off too far on tangents (however interesting), and not become zealots.

It's obvious that Anthony is disappointed with a lot of the doubt and criticism he likely gets from fellow members of the church and that his 'discovery' and ideas he has tried to share haven't taken root and generated much discussion among the mainstream membership of the church, but I don't get the sense that he's disaffected with church leadership or anything like that. I think he respects the authority and I think that he even believes that the highest leadership of the church fully knows or believes and understands much of what he has tried to share. I think he thinks that because of several certain symbols that continue to show up in the abstract of geometry and architecture of the new temples that continue to be built, which suggests that these symbols are being placed there by intent with approval of the First Presidency.

He has made it quite clear in some of his Youtube presentations that he can fully understand why this stuff wouldn't be pointed out and publicly taught in gatherings like General Conference and so forth in the contemporary church. He has stated that we are peculiar enough with what is already taught with our basic doctrine and believes that missionary efforts would really struggle if a lot of these cosmological concepts were preached over the pulpit or taught in detail in the manuals. So I don't think he's becoming upset with the Church and its organization and its methods of instruction and curriculums to the general membership and the world as a whole. I think he's just frustrated and disappointed that more members probably react to that which he likes to share with much more criticism and doubt rather than finding his ideas interesting enough to give it all more thought and consideration but I don't get the sense that he's allowed this frustration and disappointment to really shake his testimony. In fact, he's convinced that what he likes to share can strengthen a testimony and give much greater clarity and insight into things taught by Joseph Smith and things that continue to be taught in today's temples, in the scriptures, and elsewhere.

[mark.pinnell]

There is quite a thread on this topic started back in 2012 here: viewtopic.php?t=21475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you for your time and insights on this topic, much appreciated. I'm not much of a literary person and struggle to get my thoughts arranged and down in writing and tend to mess things up when I do. Never the less my testimony of this research is strong like yours and I only desire to help others learn more about the gospel and come closer to our Savior and Heavenly Father.

This thread was intended to generate interest to those that may not have come across the concepts before and also encourage people to further their investigations if they have been previously exposed. I'm not a regular on this forum but do remember seeing the previous thread a while ago. It is a mass of awesome scientific information supporting this theory but I'm coming from a different angle with symbolic connections to the gospel which may attract the more faithful saints. To me the greater evidences are the comparative mythology work that Dave Talbot has worked on and comparing that to the gospel. And when you get in deep and look at Ev Cockrain's work and early church ordinances, it's like you have received the second comforter.

[mark.pinnell]

Here is another interesting concept: we are all adopted into the house of Israel, the word Israel is constructed from the three Egyptian gods Isis, Ra, and El. The elephant here is why would the chosen people of God take on the name of three Egyptian's gods? Why do we today identify under the name of Egyptian gods? Some will say "who cares? nothing to see here... It's just a name from the culture in which they lived." and others might stop and think 'maybe there is more to be learnt from history, maybe we are taught with ancient symbolism in our temples for a reason'. Why did Hugh Nibley study Egyptology in depth and say it is the most authentic of the ancient cultures?

What is your source for this claim?
Whatever your source is, it is wrong. The origin of El was east of Egypt and El was never part of Egyptian religion.

Regarding your question of why the chosen people, the descendants of Israel, took the name Israel upon themselves: they did so because of revelation through leaders of the church organized at that time.

You are probably correct about El, I haven't gone that deep into the research on that. Thanks for your insights. I guess the idea I'm trying to convey is that the name Israel is constructed of three ancient Gods and it's the patterns or archetypes that are associated with them that interests me. Isis is a goddess, female and is symbolic of Venus (Mary), Ra the most powerful and popular god is symbolic of Mars (Jesus), El is the supreme god of many ancient near eastern religions and symbolic of Saturn (The Father). These claims of associations to planets I got from Dave Talbot's work on comparative mythology which Anthony introduced me to.

Why did God change Jacob's name to three gods of ancient religions? Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. It's all about asking questions... is there any significance in the name or is it the same as changing his name to Qwerty? See Anthony has opened up my understanding to so many concepts related to the gospel and our existence here on Earth I just thought I would share it with a forum of people that might be receptive.

I guess there is a lot of speculation and discussion on the signs of the times in these threads and I'm just throwing my two cents in with a comet/planetary encounter causing the tribulations prophesied of connected with the Savior's second coming (3 Nephi 8). It seems many people have wasted their time with blood moons, white horses, dreams, and visions and maybe it might be refreshing to explore another interpretation.

[brianj]

You are probably correct about El, I haven't gone that deep into the research on that. Thanks for your insights. I guess the idea I'm trying to convey is that the name Israel is constructed of three ancient Gods and it's the patterns or archetypes that are associated with them that interests me. Isis is a goddess, female and is symbolic of Venus (Mary), Ra the most powerful and popular god is symbolic of Mars (Jesus), El is the supreme god of many ancient near eastern religions and symbolic of Saturn (The Father). These claims of associations to planets I got from Dave Talbot's work on comparative mythology which Anthony introduced me to.

Why did God change Jacob's name to three gods of ancient religions? Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. It's all about asking questions... is there any significance in the name or is it the same as changing his name to Qwerty? See Anthony has opened up my understanding to so many concepts related to the gospel and our existence here on Earth I just thought I would share it with a forum of people that might be receptive.

I guess there is a lot of speculation and discussion on the signs of the times in these threads and I'm just throwing my two cents in with a comet/planetary encounter causing the tribulations prophesied of connected with the Savior's second coming (3 Nephi 8). It seems many people have wasted their time with blood moons, white horses, dreams, and visions and maybe it might be refreshing to explore another interpretation.

I am sure there is a great significance to the name Israel, but I don't know that the meaning has been revealed in our day. But we can look at the Hebrew roots and Genesis 32:28 and come up with a pretty good idea of what Israel means. "You have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." Israel is described in that verse as fighting with or fighting for God. The Hebrew verb שָׂרָה, which roughly transliterates to sarah and is understood to mean struggled or contended, the most likely meaning of Israel is he who fights with God. In this case, fights with would mean fights on the same side as.
Another possibility is the verb סָרַר or sarar, meaning to be strong, so Israel would mean God is strong. But I feel more comfortable with the meaning he who fights with God.

You also have to remember that the name Israel predates the growth of the Egyptian kingdom so the names Ra and Isis may not have even been known where Jacob grew up. Additionally, both Isis and Ra have names that can only be combined to form Isra in modern English. At the time Jacob was renamed Israel the Egyptians were using Demotic for their day to day written communication and Heiroglyphs for their formal writing. The phonetic pronunciation of Isis that we have today comes from the Coptic and ancient Greek languages. You see the letters i-s-i-s and probably assume that Egyptian god's name was pronounced the same way in English and ancient Egyptian, but the more likely pronunciation of Isis would transliterate to Waset or Awset.
For more debunking, look up Jeremiah 44:30 in Hebrew. The name of the pharaoh, Hophra, is a combination of khepher which means to become and Ra. Hophra literally means he becomes Ra, and the fact that the last syllable of Hophra is not at all similar to the second syllable of Israel should be another nail in the coffin of your hypothesis.

I did a little bit of digging to compose this post. In addition to finding the meaning of סָרַר I discovered the person who created the Isis-Ra-El idea, Jordan Maxwell, who spends some of his time disproving religions. The fact that Maxwell proposes that our Savior is nothing but an adoption of the Egyptian myth of Horus should be enough to dissuade you from accepting any of his claims.

[Robin Hood]

You are probably correct about El, I haven't gone that deep into the research on that. Thanks for your insights. I guess the idea I'm trying to convey is that the name Israel is constructed of three ancient Gods and it's the patterns or archetypes that are associated with them that interests me. Isis is a goddess, female and is symbolic of Venus (Mary), Ra the most powerful and popular god is symbolic of Mars (Jesus), El is the supreme god of many ancient near eastern religions and symbolic of Saturn (The Father). These claims of associations to planets I got from Dave Talbot's work on comparative mythology which Anthony introduced me to.

Why did God change Jacob's name to three gods of ancient religions? Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. It's all about asking questions... is there any significance in the name or is it the same as changing his name to Qwerty? See Anthony has opened up my understanding to so many concepts related to the gospel and our existence here on Earth I just thought I would share it with a forum of people that might be receptive.

I guess there is a lot of speculation and discussion on the signs of the times in these threads and I'm just throwing my two cents in with a comet/planetary encounter causing the tribulations prophesied of connected with the Savior's second coming (3 Nephi 8). It seems many people have wasted their time with blood moons, white horses, dreams, and visions and maybe it might be refreshing to explore another interpretation.

I am sure there is a great significance to the name Israel, but I don't know that the meaning has been revealed in our day. But we can look at the Hebrew roots and Genesis 32:28 and come up with a pretty good idea of what Israel means. "You have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." Israel is described in that verse as fighting with or fighting for God. The Hebrew verb שָׂרָה, which roughly transliterates to sarah and is understood to mean struggled or contended, the most likely meaning of Israel is he who fights with God. In this case, fights with would mean fights on the same side as.
Another possibility is the verb סָרַר or sarar, meaning to be strong, so Israel would mean God is strong. But I feel more comfortable with the meaning he who fights with God.

You also have to remember that the name Israel predates the growth of the Egyptian kingdom so the names Ra and Isis may not have even been known where Jacob grew up. Additionally, both Isis and Ra have names that can only be combined to form Isra in modern English. At the time Jacob was renamed Israel the Egyptians were using Demotic for their day to day written communication and Heiroglyphs for their formal writing. The phonetic pronunciation of Isis that we have today comes from the Coptic and ancient Greek languages. You see the letters i-s-i-s and probably assume that Egyptian god's name was pronounced the same way in English and ancient Egyptian, but the more likely pronunciation of Isis would transliterate to Waset or Awset.
For more debunking, look up Jeremiah 44:30 in Hebrew. The name of the pharaoh, Hophra, is a combination of khepher which means to become and Ra. Hophra literally means he becomes Ra, and the fact that the last syllable of Hophra is not at all similar to the second syllable of Israel should be another nail in the coffin of your hypothesis.

I did a little bit of digging to compose this post. In addition to finding the meaning of סָרַר I discovered the person who created the Isis-Ra-El idea, Jordan Maxwell, who spends some of his time disproving religions. The fact that Maxwell proposes that our Savior is nothing but an adoption of the Egyptian myth of Horus should be enough to dissuade you from accepting any of his claims.

Thank you.
Very informative.

[AlbertaBronco]

What is the coles notes version of all this ... it seems like a bunch of gobbly gook.

[Conflagrate]

I found an interesting explanation for the B and C in Dibble's diagram from the Hopi.

"

"In the Final days we will look up in our heavens and we will witness the return of the two brothers who helped create this world in the birthing time. Poganghoya is the guardian of our North Pole and his Brother Palongawhoya is the guardian of the South pole. In the final days the Blue Star Katchina will come to be with his nephews and they will return the Earth to its natural rotation which is counter clock wise."

Here is the full text and link

"The story of the Blue Kachina is a very old story, very old. I have been aware of the story of the Blue Kachina since I was very young. I was told this story by grandfathers who are now between 80 and 108 years of age. Frank Waters also wrote about Saquasohuh, the Blue Star Kachina in The Book of the Hopi, The story came from Grandfather Dan, Oldest Hopi

"It was told to me that first the Blue Kachina would start to be seen at the dances, and would make his appearance known to the children in the plaza during the night dance. This event would tell us that the end times are very near. Then the Blue Star Kachina would physically appear in our heavens which would mean that we were in the end times.

"In the Final days we will look up in our heavens and we will witness the return of the two brothers who helped create this world in the birthing time. Poganghoya is the guardian of our North Pole and his Brother Palongawhoya is the guardian of the South pole. In the final days the Blue Star Katchina will come to be with his nephews and they will return the Earth to its natural rotation which is counter clock wise.

"This fact is evidenced in many petroglyphs that speak of the Zodiac, and within the Mayan and Egyptian pyramids. The rotation of the Earth has been manipulated by not so benevolent Star beings. The twins will be seen in our North Western skies. They will come and visit to see who still remembered the original teachings flying in their Patuwvotas, or flying shields. They will bring many of their star family with them in the final days.

"The return of the Blue Star Katchina who is also known as Nan ga sohu will be the alarm clock that tells us of the new day and new way of life, a new world that is coming. This is where the changes will begin. They will start as fires that burn within us, and we will burn up with desires and conflict if we do not remember the original teachings, and return to the peaceful way of life.

"Not far behind the twins will come the Purifier - The Red Katchina, who will bring the Day of Purification. On this day the Earth, her creatures and all life as we know it will change forever. There will be messengers that will precede this coming of the Purifier. They will leave messages to those on Earth who remember the old ways.

"The messages will be found written in the living stone, through the sacred grains, and even the waters. (Crop Circles have been found in ice) From the Purifier will issue forth a great Red Light. All things will change in their manner of being. Every living thing will be offered the opportunity to change from the largest to the smallest thing.

"Those who return to the ways given to us in the original teachings, and live a natural way of life will not be touched by the coming of the Purifier. They will survive and build the new world. Only in the ancient teachings will the ability to understand the messages be found.

"It is important to understand that these messages will be found upon every living thing, even within our bodies, even within a drop of our blood. All life forms will receive the messages from the twins... those that fly, the plants, even the rabbit. The appearance of the twins begins a period of seven years will be our final opportunity to change our ways. Everything we experience is all a mater of choice.

"Many will appear to have lost their souls in these final days. So intense will the nature of the changes be that those who are weak in spiritual awareness will go insane, for we are nothing without spirit. They will disappear, for they are just hollow vessels for any thing to use. Life will be so bad in the cities that many will choose to leave this plane. Some in whole groups.

"Only those who return to the values of the old ways will be able to find peace of mind. For in the Earth we shall find relief from the madness that will be all around us. It will be a very hard time for women with children for they will be shunned, and many of the children in these times will be unnatural. Some being from the Stars some from past worlds, some will even be created by man in an unnatural manner and will be souless. Many of people in this time will be empty in Spirit they will have Sampacu. No life force in their eyes.

"As we get close to the time of arrival the Purifier there will be those who walk as ghosts through the cities, through canyons they will have constructed in their man made mountains. Those that walk through these places will be very heavy in their walk, it will appear almost painful as they take each step for they will be disconnected from their spirit and the Earth.

"After the arrival of the twins, they will begin to vanish before your eyes like so muck smoke. Others will have great deformities, both in the mind and upon their bodies. There will be those who would walk in the body that are not from this reality, for many of the gateways that once protected us will be opened, there will be much confusion. Confusion between sexes, and children and their elders.

"Life will get very perverted, and there will be little social order, in these times many will ask for the mountains themselves to fall upon them just to end their misery. Still others will appear as if untouched by what is occurring. The ones who remember the original teachings and have reconnected their hearts and spirit. Those who remember who their mother and father is. The Pahana who have left to live in the Mountains and forest.

"When the Purifier comes we will see him first as a small Red Star which will come very close and sit in our heavens watching us. Watching us to see how well we have remembered the sacred teachings.

"This Purifier will show us many miraculous signs in our heavens. In this way we will know Creator is not a dream. Even those who do not feel their connection to spirit will see the face of creator across the sky. Things unseen will be felt very strongly.

"Many things will begin to occur that will not make sense, for reality will be shifting back in and out of the dream state. There will be many doorways to the lower world that will open at this time. Things long forgotten will come back to remind us of our past creations. All living things will want to be present for this day when time ends, and we enter the forever cycle of the Fifth World.

"We will receive many warnings allowing us to change our ways from below the Earth as well as above. Then one morning in a moment. We will awaken to the Red Dawn. The sky will be the color of blood, many things will then begin to happen that right now we are nor sure of their exact nature. For much of reality will not be as it is now.

"There will be many strange beasts upon the Earth in those days, some from the past and some that we have never seen. The nature of mankind will appear strange in these times we walk between worlds and we will house many spirits even within our bodies After a time we will again walk with our brothers from the Stars, and rebuild this Earth. But not until the Purifier has left his mark upon the universe.

"No thing living will go untouched, here or in the heavens. The way through this time it is said is to be found in our hearts, and reuniting with our spiritual self. Getting simple and returning to living with and upon the Earth and in harmony with her creatures. Remembering that we are the caretakers, the fire keepers of the Spirit. Our relatives from the Stars are coming home to see how well we have faired in our journey.
The Pictures enclosed in this presentation are of the Human Beings, my Hopi Grandfathers... they were telling you truth... there is still time for you to change
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_ ... hopi12.htm

[Paul O'Dwyer]

I found an interesting explanation for the B and C in Dibble's diagram from the Hopi.

"

"In the Final days we will look up in our heavens and we will witness the return of the two brothers who helped create this world in the birthing time. Poganghoya is the guardian of our North Pole and his Brother Palongawhoya is the guardian of the South pole. In the final days the Blue Star Katchina will come to be with his nephews and they will return the Earth to its natural rotation which is counter clock wise."

Here is the full text and link

"The story of the Blue Kachina is a very old story, very old. I have been aware of the story of the Blue Kachina since I was very young. I was told this story by grandfathers who are now between 80 and 108 years of age. Frank Waters also wrote about Saquasohuh, the Blue Star Kachina in The Book of the Hopi, The story came from Grandfather Dan, Oldest Hopi

"It was told to me that first the Blue Kachina would start to be seen at the dances, and would make his appearance known to the children in the plaza during the night dance. This event would tell us that the end times are very near. Then the Blue Star Kachina would physically appear in our heavens which would mean that we were in the end times.

"In the Final days we will look up in our heavens and we will witness the return of the two brothers who helped create this world in the birthing time. Poganghoya is the guardian of our North Pole and his Brother Palongawhoya is the guardian of the South pole. In the final days the Blue Star Katchina will come to be with his nephews and they will return the Earth to its natural rotation which is counter clock wise.

"This fact is evidenced in many petroglyphs that speak of the Zodiac, and within the Mayan and Egyptian pyramids. The rotation of the Earth has been manipulated by not so benevolent Star beings. The twins will be seen in our North Western skies. They will come and visit to see who still remembered the original teachings flying in their Patuwvotas, or flying shields. They will bring many of their star family with them in the final days.

"The return of the Blue Star Katchina who is also known as Nan ga sohu will be the alarm clock that tells us of the new day and new way of life, a new world that is coming. This is where the changes will begin. They will start as fires that burn within us, and we will burn up with desires and conflict if we do not remember the original teachings, and return to the peaceful way of life.

"Not far behind the twins will come the Purifier - The Red Katchina, who will bring the Day of Purification. On this day the Earth, her creatures and all life as we know it will change forever. There will be messengers that will precede this coming of the Purifier. They will leave messages to those on Earth who remember the old ways.

"The messages will be found written in the living stone, through the sacred grains, and even the waters. (Crop Circles have been found in ice) From the Purifier will issue forth a great Red Light. All things will change in their manner of being. Every living thing will be offered the opportunity to change from the largest to the smallest thing.

"Those who return to the ways given to us in the original teachings, and live a natural way of life will not be touched by the coming of the Purifier. They will survive and build the new world. Only in the ancient teachings will the ability to understand the messages be found.

"It is important to understand that these messages will be found upon every living thing, even within our bodies, even within a drop of our blood. All life forms will receive the messages from the twins... those that fly, the plants, even the rabbit. The appearance of the twins begins a period of seven years will be our final opportunity to change our ways. Everything we experience is all a mater of choice.

"Many will appear to have lost their souls in these final days. So intense will the nature of the changes be that those who are weak in spiritual awareness will go insane, for we are nothing without spirit. They will disappear, for they are just hollow vessels for any thing to use. Life will be so bad in the cities that many will choose to leave this plane. Some in whole groups.

"Only those who return to the values of the old ways will be able to find peace of mind. For in the Earth we shall find relief from the madness that will be all around us. It will be a very hard time for women with children for they will be shunned, and many of the children in these times will be unnatural. Some being from the Stars some from past worlds, some will even be created by man in an unnatural manner and will be souless. Many of people in this time will be empty in Spirit they will have Sampacu. No life force in their eyes.

"As we get close to the time of arrival the Purifier there will be those who walk as ghosts through the cities, through canyons they will have constructed in their man made mountains. Those that walk through these places will be very heavy in their walk, it will appear almost painful as they take each step for they will be disconnected from their spirit and the Earth.

"After the arrival of the twins, they will begin to vanish before your eyes like so muck smoke. Others will have great deformities, both in the mind and upon their bodies. There will be those who would walk in the body that are not from this reality, for many of the gateways that once protected us will be opened, there will be much confusion. Confusion between sexes, and children and their elders.

"Life will get very perverted, and there will be little social order, in these times many will ask for the mountains themselves to fall upon them just to end their misery. Still others will appear as if untouched by what is occurring. The ones who remember the original teachings and have reconnected their hearts and spirit. Those who remember who their mother and father is. The Pahana who have left to live in the Mountains and forest.

"When the Purifier comes we will see him first as a small Red Star which will come very close and sit in our heavens watching us. Watching us to see how well we have remembered the sacred teachings.

"This Purifier will show us many miraculous signs in our heavens. In this way we will know Creator is not a dream. Even those who do not feel their connection to spirit will see the face of creator across the sky. Things unseen will be felt very strongly.

"Many things will begin to occur that will not make sense, for reality will be shifting back in and out of the dream state. There will be many doorways to the lower world that will open at this time. Things long forgotten will come back to remind us of our past creations. All living things will want to be present for this day when time ends, and we enter the forever cycle of the Fifth World.

"We will receive many warnings allowing us to change our ways from below the Earth as well as above. Then one morning in a moment. We will awaken to the Red Dawn. The sky will be the color of blood, many things will then begin to happen that right now we are nor sure of their exact nature. For much of reality will not be as it is now.

"There will be many strange beasts upon the Earth in those days, some from the past and some that we have never seen. The nature of mankind will appear strange in these times we walk between worlds and we will house many spirits even within our bodies After a time we will again walk with our brothers from the Stars, and rebuild this Earth. But not until the Purifier has left his mark upon the universe.

"No thing living will go untouched, here or in the heavens. The way through this time it is said is to be found in our hearts, and reuniting with our spiritual self. Getting simple and returning to living with and upon the Earth and in harmony with her creatures. Remembering that we are the caretakers, the fire keepers of the Spirit. Our relatives from the Stars are coming home to see how well we have faired in our journey.
The Pictures enclosed in this presentation are of the Human Beings, my Hopi Grandfathers... they were telling you truth... there is still time for you to change
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_ ... hopi12.htm

Interesting about the Katchina thanks for sharing that

[Hivetyrant36]

Lol you are on all the websites mark hahaha! Ive been doing my fare share of trying to correct some of the philosophies of men in this web forum (like nibiru). Giving people the right names and such. Dave Talbot is another good source to look into, from a purely historical perspective.