The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

[EmmaLee]

The population of Chicago in 1844 was approximately 4,470.
The population of Nauvoo in 1844 was over 12,000.

http://physics.bu.edu/~redner/projects/ ... icago.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo,_Illinois" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[brianj]

In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.

[gclayjr]

I always thought of going into Kennett Square, Pa. population 6,151, as going into the city, although technically, I guess it is a village..... still too big for me! It does have a super Walmart though.

Regards,

George Clay

[PressingForward]

In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.

San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the US

[brianj]

In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.

San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the US

San Antonio is the 7th largest city by population, but the San Antonio metropolitan statistical area is the 25th largest. Comparing MSAs, LA is over five times larger than San Antonio and NYC is over eight times larger.

[mhewett]

So, whether or not the comment could be credible depends on when the prophecy was supposedly made. Do we know the date that Nephi Packard claims his brother heard it?

I agree with and I said "What is not clear is when the Prophet Joseph is alleged to have made the comment". If he said it in 1832 when D&C 87 was received, Chicago was a very small town, barely even a town but of course by 1844 when Joseph died it was a few thousand and as someone else commented, 'small town' is subjective and can be defined differently by different people.

To me, a town of 4000 is small, I lived in a town of 25000 and I didn't think that was that big. But to me, there is enough information to conclude that describing Chicago as a small town in the early to late 1830's was quite accurate.

[Silver]

Chicago protests...rioters bussed in from neighboring states. Spontaneous...yeah, sure.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-1 ... aught-tape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Talon65]

paulrobots,

I think we are coming to the point where the Chicago prophecy, the GAS prophecy, the White Horse prophecy, and 2nd Esdras are going to converge with a vengeance.

Chicago - civil war II due to monetary manipulation.

GAS - president elected but not innaugurated, Russia attacks, starvation.

White Horse - America left without a government, Constitution hanging like a thread, worldwide economic crash, mobbing and racial riots, father against son, daughter against mother, etc.

2 Esdras - 4 presidents in quick succession, then America being taken over by two outside countries/kingdoms/confederations/entities.

I know we are all looking to see what is coming. We do have to be careful of our sources. Some here on this board, completely lose any semblance of sanity by embracing questionable sources as if more reliable than the standard works themselves. I guess it is alright to look at these sources if we remain skeptical of their accuracy and validity.

1) You did note that the Chicago prophecy was the recollection of some guy as to what Joseph said years previously. I'm not terribly familiar with this. What are the references?

2) I don't even know what GAS stands for.

3) I am familiar with White Horse, and I feel comfortable that I have a good ideas how much credibility to give that one. re: Some parts such constitution hanging by thread oft quoted by GAs, some parts not accepted as revelation.

4) 2nd Esdras - This is part of the Apocrypha. I believe Joseph Smith said that there is some wisdom here, but that the Apocrypha is not reliable. Also, when the Apocrypha was written, nobody even knew about the new world. How do you even apply this writing, if true. to apply to presidents of the U.S?


Regards,

George Clay

regarding the Veracity of the Apocrypha,
The LDS Church website regards Book of Esdras as having "Special Value"
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/apocrypha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the interpretation of Esdras found here lays out a pretty solid timeline/chain of events that concern the Immediate future of America
(LDS Author FWIW)
http://thelost10tribes.com/?page_id=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

regardless, we dont have long to wait before the truth of it becomes known... I, for one, am watching these events closely... events will bear witness one way or the other... very soon

[kittycat51]

http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-06-27-t ... -near.html

The total financial meltdown of Illinois draws near; the first of many states plunging into fiscal collapse
Tuesday, June 27, 2017 by: Ethan Huff

It appears that far too many years of waste, corruption, and entitlements have sent the state of Illinois on a downward spiral into total financial failure. Republican Governor Bruce Rauner has declared that the state is now entering “banana republic” territory, and that even the Illinois lottery is thinking about bailing as there will soon be no more money left to pay the bills, including lottery prize winnings.

Illinois hasn’t passed a budget in three years – which is completely unprecedented – and the backlog of its unpaid bills has reached an astounding $15 billion. There’s also another $251 billion in unfunded pension obligations that nobody knows how they’ll pay. Because of all this, Moody’s Investors Services has downgraded Illinois’ credit rating to the lowest ever seen in the United States.

Some reports suggest that Illinois may try to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, which would be the first time a state has ever attempted this. But in order to do so, Congress would need to intervene to change state law, as currently this would be an impossibility.

Gov. Rauner is calling for a special session of the Democrat-led General Assembly to finally pass a budget bill that would help to get things back on track. The goal is to avoid a situation in which things get so bad that vital services begin to shut down, setting off a domino effect of progressive failures in other areas of civic life.

“We’re like a banana republic,” Gov. Rauner stated earlier this month after the state’s General Assembly once again failed to pass a budget by the regular session deadline. “We can’t manage our money.”

Illinois to soon be paying out 100 percent of monthly revenue, leaving nothing for discretionary spending

The office of the governor has been at a stalemate for a long time, as anything it has proposed as a solution has been met with hostility by Democrats, including Illinois House Speaker, Michael Madigan. A top Republican told the media about this “ongoing confrontation,” which has put lawmakers at odds with their constituents, who are now suffering the consequences.

Gov. Rauner says Republicans in the General Assembly have put together a plan that he’s willing to sign, and that it represents a “true compromise” that should be able to please everyone. It includes property tax relief, term limits, and spending caps that would help the people of Illinois while also fixing the problems that put Illinois in this mess in the first place. It also addresses structural reforms, government consolidation, and pension reform.

“Illinois is the fiscal model of what not to do,” Representative Peter Roskam, a Republican, told Fox News. “This avoidance in behavior toward dealing with our challenges is what leads to the devastating impacts we are seeing today.”

But House Speaker Madigan’s press secretary, Steve Brown, says there’s more to it than just obstruction. Included in the General Assembly’s bill are things that he says have nothing to do with state government.

“The biggest problem here is that the governor keeps associating a lot of things that do not have anything to do with the budget,” he stated.”

Gov. Rauner has given the General Assembly until June 30 to come up with a solution. If it fails to pass a budget by this deadline, it can still pass another stopgap package. But lawmakers say this isn’t a good option, and that the people of Illinois will pay the price.

“We have a very real deadline looming,” Senate Republican Leader Christine Radogno told Fox News. “The alternative to not finding a compromise will be devastating to Illinois.”

[Bronco73idi]

This is an excellent thread on the 2nd civil war topic. Bumping it so more can see.

[4Joshua8]

This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.

Here's some scriptural support for the idea of a second civil war in the USA.

From Isaiah 19. Here, Egypt is supposed to refer to the latter-day super power of the USA.

I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians; they will fight brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor, city against city and state against state. Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within; I will frustrate their plans, and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists, to mediums and witchcraft. Then will I deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master; a harsh ruler will subject them, says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

Gileadi Commentary on the above verses:
Anarchy and civil war in the great superpower of the world form the prelude to its desolation. As much of the land is destroyed from within, Egypt’s enemies see their chance to invade from without. When Jehovah withdraws his Spirit because of a people’s evildoing, they are left to their own devices. Their alienation causes Jehovah to close the heavens. They lose the light they once had, and a man’s adversaries become those of his own people. Desperate, they turn to false channels of information—idols, spiritists, mediums, and witchcraft—only to compound their plight (Isaiah 8:19-20; 42:17; 44:17; 45:20). The nation of Egypt in Isaiah’s day was ruled by a non-native Afro-Egyptian (Cushite) pharaoh of Egypt’s 25th dynasty (760-656 B.C.) (cf. Isaiah 18:1; 20:3-5). This was a period of extensive government programs but of moral decline that set the stage for Assyria’s invasion and conquest of Egypt. Like ancient Egypt, end-time “Egypt” deteriorates politically (vv 11-15), experiences economic hardship (vv 8-10), and suffers severe drought conditions (vv 5-7). Egypt—the breadbasket of the world—is reduced to poverty. Only the God of Israel, who rules over all nations, is able to save Egypt (vv 20-24).

I say this is support for a 2nd civil war (rather than support for the 1st civil war) because of its timing: it seems to apply to the time directly preceding the Assyrian's attack, meaning that directly before the attack Egypt (USA) suffers a civil war.

Note that we're currently experiencing almost all markers for fulfillment of that prophecy, meaning that it could reasonably take place within the next few years. We have the inflation (devaluation of the dollar) per the "Chicago prophecy", and we have the political deterioration, economic hardship, and severe drought conditions noted in the above commentary. Next up: being reduced to poverty, which is definitely part of the prophecy, as Isaiah 26:6 says the righteous saved will be poor/impoverished.

It is trodden underfoot by the feet of the poor, by the footsteps of those impoverished.

[4Joshua8]

paulrobots,

I think we are coming to the point where the Chicago prophecy, the GAS prophecy, the White Horse prophecy, and 2nd Esdras are going to converge with a vengeance.

Chicago - civil war II due to monetary manipulation.

GAS - president elected but not innaugurated, Russia attacks, starvation.

White Horse - America left without a government, Constitution hanging like a thread, worldwide economic crash, mobbing and racial riots, father against son, daughter against mother, etc.

2 Esdras - 4 presidents in quick succession, then America being taken over by two outside countries/kingdoms/confederations/entities.

4) 2nd Esdras - This is part of the Apocrypha. I believe Joseph Smith said that there is some wisdom here, but that the Apocrypha is not reliable. Also, when the Apocrypha was written, nobody even knew about the new world. How do you even apply this writing, if true. to apply to presidents of the U.S?


Regards,

George Clay

Knowing about the "new world" isn't a requirement for a prophet, because the spirit of prophecy is Jesus Christ's testimony, and Jesus surely knew about the new world, even way back then.

[Bronco73idi]

This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.

Here's some scriptural support for the idea of a second civil war in the USA.

From Isaiah 19. Here, Egypt is supposed to refer to the latter-day super power of the USA.

I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians; they will fight brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor, city against city and state against state. Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within; I will frustrate their plans, and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists, to mediums and witchcraft. Then will I deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master; a harsh ruler will subject them, says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

Gileadi Commentary on the above verses:
Anarchy and civil war in the great superpower of the world form the prelude to its desolation. As much of the land is destroyed from within, Egypt’s enemies see their chance to invade from without. When Jehovah withdraws his Spirit because of a people’s evildoing, they are left to their own devices. Their alienation causes Jehovah to close the heavens. They lose the light they once had, and a man’s adversaries become those of his own people. Desperate, they turn to false channels of information—idols, spiritists, mediums, and witchcraft—only to compound their plight (Isaiah 8:19-20; 42:17; 44:17; 45:20). The nation of Egypt in Isaiah’s day was ruled by a non-native Afro-Egyptian (Cushite) pharaoh of Egypt’s 25th dynasty (760-656 B.C.) (cf. Isaiah 18:1; 20:3-5). This was a period of extensive government programs but of moral decline that set the stage for Assyria’s invasion and conquest of Egypt. Like ancient Egypt, end-time “Egypt” deteriorates politically (vv 11-15), experiences economic hardship (vv 8-10), and suffers severe drought conditions (vv 5-7). Egypt—the breadbasket of the world—is reduced to poverty. Only the God of Israel, who rules over all nations, is able to save Egypt (vv 20-24).

I say this is support for a 2nd civil war (rather than support for the 1st civil war) because of its timing: it seems to apply to the time directly preceding the Assyrian's attack, meaning that directly before the attack Egypt (USA) suffers a civil war.

Note that we're currently experiencing almost all markers for fulfillment of that prophecy, meaning that it could reasonably take place within the next few years. We have the inflation (devaluation of the dollar) per the "Chicago prophecy", and we have the political deterioration, economic hardship, and sever drought conditions noted in the above commentary. Next up: being reduced to poverty, which is definitely part of the prophecy, as Isaiah 26:6 says the righteous saved will be poor/impoverished.

It is trodden underfoot by the feet of the poor, by the footsteps of those impoverished.

When I read your Isaiah thread I thought of this and Ezra’s Eagle. Another part I think a lot of people skip over is the sun, Isaiah and revelation both talk about things that the sun is easily capable of doing.