The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

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paulrobots
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Posts: 374

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by paulrobots »

DesertWonderer wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
kirtland r.m. wrote:This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.
This one was discussed extensively on the forum several years ago and it's impressive the indepth questions and research that posters engaged in. I'm afraid we don't see that much anymore, posters now just seem to accept everything at face value.

Here's the thread, if anyone is interested in actually looking into this prophecy;

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14811


I read the thread and the problems that stand out right now are:

It's Third hand, 'my brother heard the prophet say' and it's several decades later. This makes is automatically problematic.

And the comment about Chicago is it's downfall, IMO. I looked it up. Chicago was not a small town, it was by some descriptions, comparable to Nauvoo and in some, it is said to be bigger than Nauvoo. Nauvoo was one of the largest cities in the state at the time. Why would the Prophet Joseph call Chicago a 'little town' when he would have known this. In 1896, the teller of the story probably didn't know this but he did know that Chicago was considered to have grown A LOT--in fact, it was the home of the Worlds Fair in 1893--three years before he wrote his letter(recollection). I think it shows that the teller's memory is off and he's putting his own spin in it.

So, one has to wonder, if the teller added that, what else did he add?

Also, if you wonder why the 'prophecy' is concerned about money and economic problems, well, there was a serious depression in the US

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/dep1893.htm

http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html

From this article;
The depression remained severe in 1896, making economic conditions a crucial issue of the campaign. The sitting Democratic president, Grover Cleveland, was wildly unpopular because of the depression--a fact that helped foster a deep rift in the Democratic party, and also made Bryan's campaign an uphill battle from the start. During the first two years of McKinley's presidency the nation returned to prosperity, bringing new issues to the fore in 1898 and beyond.
1896 was the year the letter was written. Clearly, the depression and the fear of economic problems was on their minds. I think we can see that the teller is also influenced to share his memories with others because of what is happening in their present day. I'm not saying that it never happened, that Joseph didn't make some predictions, but I'm afraid that with it being third hand and almost 60 years later, and considering what they were living through, one must consider that this prophecy could easily be tainted.

I also think that with many of these recollected 'prophecies' that are shared here show the influence of the times the person lived in. They worry about war, food shortages, etc. I wonder if these prophecies are brought out, dusted off and shared around every time the economy takes a down turn or the drums of war start to beat. Notice that they never seem to be fulfilled, even with all the events that do take place around us.
Excellent analysis. It almost exactly describes the problems with the GAS "prophecy" too. Funny how generation after generation similar problematic visions come up.
Your logic is backwards. You say that the times influenced the men who wrote down there memories. Of couse they did. When Dukakis ran for president, David Horne knew he wasn't of northern european ancestry, therefore he thought the time of the prophecy was imminent. He wrote down his memories. He checked what he wrote down with his brother who had also been present the night of G.A.S.'s visit. Some things he said his brother remembered differently, other things his brother didn't remember at all.

Buyt what you two are saying is that Bro. Horne was worried about war and some Greek guy getting elected so he went and made up a prophecy and attributed it to President Smith. I really don't think that's what happened. But the times he lived in, he thought he recognized from the talk that was given that night, in his livingroom, by the prophet.

I imagine the Chicago prophecy was also written down at that time, exactly because of the things that were happening that fit so well with what Joseph Smith had said.

Or they both just made up a random prophecy, and got their 15 minutes of fame. Who knows? I don't follow JR, HS, Snuffer or anyone else who is not ordained and recognized by the church. But these historical accounts, purported to be from true prophets, which are starting to look plausible and or likely, bear some thought.

I'm not sure how knowing that civil war II will start in chicago is helpful, except to know to stay away if rioting turns to shooting.

carbon dioxide
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Posts: 190

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by carbon dioxide »

kirtland r.m. wrote:This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.


When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.
Lets be fair however on a point. Though the murder rate is up in Chicago, the numbers are still down from the early 90's when there were about 1000 murders a year.

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AI2.0
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Posts: 3917

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by AI2.0 »

paulrobots wrote:
DesertWonderer wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
kirtland r.m. wrote:This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.
This one was discussed extensively on the forum several years ago and it's impressive the indepth questions and research that posters engaged in. I'm afraid we don't see that much anymore, posters now just seem to accept everything at face value.

Here's the thread, if anyone is interested in actually looking into this prophecy;

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14811


I read the thread and the problems that stand out right now are:

It's Third hand, 'my brother heard the prophet say' and it's several decades later. This makes is automatically problematic.

And the comment about Chicago is it's downfall, IMO. I looked it up. Chicago was not a small town, it was by some descriptions, comparable to Nauvoo and in some, it is said to be bigger than Nauvoo. Nauvoo was one of the largest cities in the state at the time. Why would the Prophet Joseph call Chicago a 'little town' when he would have known this. In 1896, the teller of the story probably didn't know this but he did know that Chicago was considered to have grown A LOT--in fact, it was the home of the Worlds Fair in 1893--three years before he wrote his letter(recollection). I think it shows that the teller's memory is off and he's putting his own spin in it.

So, one has to wonder, if the teller added that, what else did he add?

Also, if you wonder why the 'prophecy' is concerned about money and economic problems, well, there was a serious depression in the US

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/dep1893.htm

http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html

From this article;
The depression remained severe in 1896, making economic conditions a crucial issue of the campaign. The sitting Democratic president, Grover Cleveland, was wildly unpopular because of the depression--a fact that helped foster a deep rift in the Democratic party, and also made Bryan's campaign an uphill battle from the start. During the first two years of McKinley's presidency the nation returned to prosperity, bringing new issues to the fore in 1898 and beyond.
1896 was the year the letter was written. Clearly, the depression and the fear of economic problems was on their minds. I think we can see that the teller is also influenced to share his memories with others because of what is happening in their present day. I'm not saying that it never happened, that Joseph didn't make some predictions, but I'm afraid that with it being third hand and almost 60 years later, and considering what they were living through, one must consider that this prophecy could easily be tainted.

I also think that with many of these recollected 'prophecies' that are shared here show the influence of the times the person lived in. They worry about war, food shortages, etc. I wonder if these prophecies are brought out, dusted off and shared around every time the economy takes a down turn or the drums of war start to beat. Notice that they never seem to be fulfilled, even with all the events that do take place around us.
Excellent analysis. It almost exactly describes the problems with the GAS "prophecy" too. Funny how generation after generation similar problematic visions come up.
Your logic is backwards. You say that the times influenced the men who wrote down there memories. Of couse they did. When Dukakis ran for president, David Horne knew he wasn't of northern european ancestry, therefore he thought the time of the prophecy was imminent. He wrote down his memories. He checked what he wrote down with his brother who had also been present the night of G.A.S.'s visit. Some things he said his brother remembered differently, other things his brother didn't remember at all.

Buyt what you two are saying is that Bro. Horne was worried about war and some Greek guy getting elected so he went and made up a prophecy and attributed it to President Smith. I really don't think that's what happened. But the times he lived in, he thought he recognized from the talk that was given that night, in his livingroom, by the prophet.

I imagine the Chicago prophecy was also written down at that time, exactly because of the things that were happening that fit so well with what Joseph Smith had said.

Or they both just made up a random prophecy, and got their 15 minutes of fame. Who knows? I don't follow JR, HS, Snuffer or anyone else who is not ordained and recognized by the church. But these historical accounts, purported to be from true prophets, which are starting to look plausible and or likely, bear some thought.

I'm not sure how knowing that civil war II will start in chicago is helpful, except to know to stay away if rioting turns to shooting.
I think the logic is sound, but you are making some incorrect inferences. I did not accuse them of making up random prophesies. I am saying that I believe they had some limited recollections of things that were said or they believed were said, from years ago and because of that, their recollections were not strictly correct and were influenced by their present time and their present concerns.

I absolutely think that David Horne's recollections were influenced by his fears for a Dukakis presidency. I think that he remembered the description as 'greek' because he believed Dukakis to be the fulfillment of that prophecy. But, the prophecy, even the visit of George Albert Smith was never written down or corroborated by others (except through Horne's statement that his brother remembered it differenty.) We don't even have his brothers' written recollections to compare it to, do we?
We also don't know what other prophecies Horne may have been familiar with. Maybe he was influenced by some others and so there is more tainting of his recollections.

We have to treat the whole George Albert Smith prophecy with a grain of salt simply because of the fact that GAS never even shared it with the Apostles/church and there is no other record except horne's. That's a problem because as Prophet, Pres. Smith knew very well that if it wasn't put through the channels for acceptance by the church, it was of no value to us.

As for the Chicago prophecy, look at what was happening in Chicago as to why that might have been 'recollected' as a place for a civil war to start. It was considered a huge, even by world standards, city. It was full of riots and problems, with unions and race relations. It's not surprising at all that people my think it would be a place for a civil war to start. And, we cannot absolutely attribute this prophecy to Joseph Smith when there is nothing else to tie it to him, except this single letter, written some 50 years after Joseph's death. If there are other references to this, that would help--that is, if they have a credible provenance. If someone comes forward with something that 'just happened to show up in someone's diary', then I'd be suspicious, and we all should, after what Mark Hofmann pulled.

That remark about Chicago being a little town in Joseph's day is a clear indicator that this letter should be looked at carefully--not saying it's a fake or written to deceive, but that clearly the recollection is off--it can't be reflecting Joseph's true statement. Joseph lived in Illinois, he would have known that Chicago was not 'little'. It's clearly the comment of a person who lived later and knows the Chicago of the 1890's and how much it had grown, but is not aware of it's relationship to Nauvoo at the time the Prophet's life.

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mhewett
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by mhewett »

AI2.0 wrote:
As for the Chicago prophecy, look at what was happening in Chicago as to why that might have been 'recollected' as a place for a civil war to start. It was considered a huge, even by world standards, city. It was full of riots and problems, with unions and race relations. It's not surprising at all that people my think it would be a place for a civil war to start. And, we cannot absolutely attribute this prophecy to Joseph Smith when there is nothing else to tie it to him, except this single letter, written some 50 years after Joseph's death. If there are other references to this, that would help--that is, if they have a credible provenance. If someone comes forward with something that 'just happened to show up in someone's diary', then I'd be suspicious, and we all should, after what Mark Hofmann pulled.

That remark about Chicago being a little town in Joseph's day is a clear indicator that this letter should be looked at carefully--not saying it's a fake or written to deceive, but that clearly the recollection is off--it can't be reflecting Joseph's true statement. Joseph lived in Illinois, he would have known that Chicago was not 'little'. It's clearly the comment of a person who lived later and knows the Chicago of the 1890's and how much it had grown, but is not aware of it's relationship to Nauvoo at the time the Prophet's life.
As I read through this thread, one point that I wondered about was if Chicago was a small town at the time Joseph was alive to see if that this letter should be looked at carefully based on that point . Has anyone actually checked it out to see how big Chicago was in Josephs time? Well here are the facts.

Chicago was only founded in 1830 and in 1829 had less than 100 in population. Chicago was incorporated as a town in 1833 when it had a population of 350 and incorporated as a city in 1837, when its population reached 4,000. By 1854 it had more than 30,000 residents. By 1857 it had grown to over 90,000. Between 1870 and 1900 Chicago grew from a city of 299,000 to nearly 1.7 million. By 1950 it grew to 3.6 million. Nowadays it is at about 2.7 million.

What is not clear is when the Prophet Joseph is alleged to have made the comment. The prophecy in D&C 87 about the civil war was received in 1832 when Chicago had a population of less than 350 certainly making it a small town. Chicago became a 'city' in 1837. This implies that Joseph may have made this quote between 1830 when Chicago was founded and 1837 when it became notionally a city although even with a population of 4000 in 1837, to me that is still a small town. The Packard brothers were aged 9 and 10 in 1830, 16 and 17 in 1837 and 23 and 24 when the prophet died.

If you are trying to verify the authenticity of the letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser by the claim of chicago being a small town, just from what I have found out, the claim that Chicago was in fact a small town in the time of Joseph Smith is supported by the facts.

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AI2.0
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by AI2.0 »

mhewett wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
As for the Chicago prophecy, look at what was happening in Chicago as to why that might have been 'recollected' as a place for a civil war to start. It was considered a huge, even by world standards, city. It was full of riots and problems, with unions and race relations. It's not surprising at all that people my think it would be a place for a civil war to start. And, we cannot absolutely attribute this prophecy to Joseph Smith when there is nothing else to tie it to him, except this single letter, written some 50 years after Joseph's death. If there are other references to this, that would help--that is, if they have a credible provenance. If someone comes forward with something that 'just happened to show up in someone's diary', then I'd be suspicious, and we all should, after what Mark Hofmann pulled.

That remark about Chicago being a little town in Joseph's day is a clear indicator that this letter should be looked at carefully--not saying it's a fake or written to deceive, but that clearly the recollection is off--it can't be reflecting Joseph's true statement. Joseph lived in Illinois, he would have known that Chicago was not 'little'. It's clearly the comment of a person who lived later and knows the Chicago of the 1890's and how much it had grown, but is not aware of it's relationship to Nauvoo at the time the Prophet's life.
As I read through this thread, one point that I wondered about was if Chicago was a small town at the time Joseph was alive to see if that this letter should be looked at carefully based on that point . Has anyone actually checked it out to see how big Chicago was in Josephs time? Well here are the facts.

Chicago was only founded in 1830 and in 1829 had less than 100 in population. Chicago was incorporated as a town in 1833 when it had a population of 350 and incorporated as a city in 1837, when its population reached 4,000. By 1854 it had more than 30,000 residents. By 1857 it had grown to over 90,000. Between 1870 and 1900 Chicago grew from a city of 299,000 to nearly 1.7 million. By 1950 it grew to 3.6 million. Nowadays it is at about 2.7 million.

What is not clear is when the Prophet Joseph is alleged to have made the comment. The prophecy in D&C 87 about the civil war was received in 1832 when Chicago had a population of less than 350 certainly making it a small town. Chicago became a 'city' in 1837. This implies that Joseph may have made this quote between 1830 when Chicago was founded and 1837 when it became notionally a city although even with a population of 4000 in 1837, to me that is still a small town. The Packard brothers were aged 9 and 10 in 1830, 16 and 17 in 1837 and 23 and 24 when the prophet died.

If you are trying to verify the authenticity of the letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser by the claim of chicago being a small town, just from what I have found out, the claim that Chicago was in fact a small town in the time of Joseph Smith is supported by the facts.
But Chicago was not a little town in the 1840's, during Joseph's lifetime. It was comparable or larger than Nauvoo--with several thousand citizens. Nauvoo's statistics are similar--it was hardly habited in the 1830's and even had a couple of different names, before it was called Nauvoo and had a population boon in the early 1840's with the Saints.

So, whether or not the comment could be credible depends on when the prophecy was supposedly made. Do we know the date that Nephi Packard claims his brother heard it?

EmmaLee
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by EmmaLee »

The population of Chicago in 1844 was approximately 4,470.
The population of Nauvoo in 1844 was over 12,000.

http://physics.bu.edu/~redner/projects/ ... icago.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo,_Illinois" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

brianj
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by brianj »

In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.

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gclayjr
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by gclayjr »

I always thought of going into Kennett Square, Pa. population 6,151, as going into the city, although technically, I guess it is a village..... still too big for me! It does have a super Walmart though.

Regards,

George Clay

PressingForward
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by PressingForward »

brianj wrote:In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.
San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the US

brianj
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by brianj »

PressingForward wrote:
brianj wrote:In 1844 the population of Chicago was 8,000, compared to 12,000 in and around Nauvoo.,
Commerce, Illinois was renamed Nauvoo in 1840, when Chicago had a population of between 4,000 and 4,500.

Of course these numbers don't really mean much. The phrase 'little town' is subjective. To somebody from New York City or Los Angeles, San Antonio is a little town. But San Antonio is the 25th largest metropolitan statistical area in the nation. But on my mission in Indiana I met people who thought Bloomington, Fort Wayne, and Terre Haute were giant cities. The Fort Wayne MSA has a population around 430,000 and Bloomington is around 190,000.
San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the US
San Antonio is the 7th largest city by population, but the San Antonio metropolitan statistical area is the 25th largest. Comparing MSAs, LA is over five times larger than San Antonio and NYC is over eight times larger.

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mhewett
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by mhewett »

AI2.0 wrote:
So, whether or not the comment could be credible depends on when the prophecy was supposedly made. Do we know the date that Nephi Packard claims his brother heard it?
I agree with and I said "What is not clear is when the Prophet Joseph is alleged to have made the comment". If he said it in 1832 when D&C 87 was received, Chicago was a very small town, barely even a town but of course by 1844 when Joseph died it was a few thousand and as someone else commented, 'small town' is subjective and can be defined differently by different people.

To me, a town of 4000 is small, I lived in a town of 25000 and I didn't think that was that big. But to me, there is enough information to conclude that describing Chicago as a small town in the early to late 1830's was quite accurate.

Silver
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by Silver »

Chicago protests...rioters bussed in from neighboring states. Spontaneous...yeah, sure.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-1 ... aught-tape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Talon65
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by Talon65 »

gclayjr wrote:paulrobots,
I think we are coming to the point where the Chicago prophecy, the GAS prophecy, the White Horse prophecy, and 2nd Esdras are going to converge with a vengeance.

Chicago - civil war II due to monetary manipulation.

GAS - president elected but not innaugurated, Russia attacks, starvation.

White Horse - America left without a government, Constitution hanging like a thread, worldwide economic crash, mobbing and racial riots, father against son, daughter against mother, etc.

2 Esdras - 4 presidents in quick succession, then America being taken over by two outside countries/kingdoms/confederations/entities.
I know we are all looking to see what is coming. We do have to be careful of our sources. Some here on this board, completely lose any semblance of sanity by embracing questionable sources as if more reliable than the standard works themselves. I guess it is alright to look at these sources if we remain skeptical of their accuracy and validity.

1) You did note that the Chicago prophecy was the recollection of some guy as to what Joseph said years previously. I'm not terribly familiar with this. What are the references?

2) I don't even know what GAS stands for.

3) I am familiar with White Horse, and I feel comfortable that I have a good ideas how much credibility to give that one. re: Some parts such constitution hanging by thread oft quoted by GAs, some parts not accepted as revelation.

4) 2nd Esdras - This is part of the Apocrypha. I believe Joseph Smith said that there is some wisdom here, but that the Apocrypha is not reliable. Also, when the Apocrypha was written, nobody even knew about the new world. How do you even apply this writing, if true. to apply to presidents of the U.S?


Regards,

George Clay
regarding the Veracity of the Apocrypha,
The LDS Church website regards Book of Esdras as having "Special Value"
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/apocrypha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the interpretation of Esdras found here lays out a pretty solid timeline/chain of events that concern the Immediate future of America
(LDS Author FWIW)
http://thelost10tribes.com/?page_id=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

regardless, we dont have long to wait before the truth of it becomes known... I, for one, am watching these events closely... events will bear witness one way or the other... very soon

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kittycat51
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Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by kittycat51 »

http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-06-27-t ... -near.html

The total financial meltdown of Illinois draws near; the first of many states plunging into fiscal collapse
Tuesday, June 27, 2017 by: Ethan Huff

It appears that far too many years of waste, corruption, and entitlements have sent the state of Illinois on a downward spiral into total financial failure. Republican Governor Bruce Rauner has declared that the state is now entering “banana republic” territory, and that even the Illinois lottery is thinking about bailing as there will soon be no more money left to pay the bills, including lottery prize winnings.

Illinois hasn’t passed a budget in three years – which is completely unprecedented – and the backlog of its unpaid bills has reached an astounding $15 billion. There’s also another $251 billion in unfunded pension obligations that nobody knows how they’ll pay. Because of all this, Moody’s Investors Services has downgraded Illinois’ credit rating to the lowest ever seen in the United States.

Some reports suggest that Illinois may try to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, which would be the first time a state has ever attempted this. But in order to do so, Congress would need to intervene to change state law, as currently this would be an impossibility.

Gov. Rauner is calling for a special session of the Democrat-led General Assembly to finally pass a budget bill that would help to get things back on track. The goal is to avoid a situation in which things get so bad that vital services begin to shut down, setting off a domino effect of progressive failures in other areas of civic life.

“We’re like a banana republic,” Gov. Rauner stated earlier this month after the state’s General Assembly once again failed to pass a budget by the regular session deadline. “We can’t manage our money.”

Illinois to soon be paying out 100 percent of monthly revenue, leaving nothing for discretionary spending

The office of the governor has been at a stalemate for a long time, as anything it has proposed as a solution has been met with hostility by Democrats, including Illinois House Speaker, Michael Madigan. A top Republican told the media about this “ongoing confrontation,” which has put lawmakers at odds with their constituents, who are now suffering the consequences.

Gov. Rauner says Republicans in the General Assembly have put together a plan that he’s willing to sign, and that it represents a “true compromise” that should be able to please everyone. It includes property tax relief, term limits, and spending caps that would help the people of Illinois while also fixing the problems that put Illinois in this mess in the first place. It also addresses structural reforms, government consolidation, and pension reform.

“Illinois is the fiscal model of what not to do,” Representative Peter Roskam, a Republican, told Fox News. “This avoidance in behavior toward dealing with our challenges is what leads to the devastating impacts we are seeing today.”

But House Speaker Madigan’s press secretary, Steve Brown, says there’s more to it than just obstruction. Included in the General Assembly’s bill are things that he says have nothing to do with state government.

“The biggest problem here is that the governor keeps associating a lot of things that do not have anything to do with the budget,” he stated.”

Gov. Rauner has given the General Assembly until June 30 to come up with a solution. If it fails to pass a budget by this deadline, it can still pass another stopgap package. But lawmakers say this isn’t a good option, and that the people of Illinois will pay the price.

“We have a very real deadline looming,” Senate Republican Leader Christine Radogno told Fox News. “The alternative to not finding a compromise will be devastating to Illinois.”

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by Bronco73idi »

This is an excellent thread on the 2nd civil war topic. Bumping it so more can see.

4Joshua8
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Posts: 2369

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by 4Joshua8 »

kirtland r.m. wrote: November 1st, 2016, 3:50 pm This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.

Here's some scriptural support for the idea of a second civil war in the USA.

From Isaiah 19. Here, Egypt is supposed to refer to the latter-day super power of the USA.
I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians; they will fight brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor, city against city and state against state. Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within; I will frustrate their plans, and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists, to mediums and witchcraft. Then will I deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master; a harsh ruler will subject them, says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

Gileadi Commentary on the above verses:
Anarchy and civil war in the great superpower of the world form the prelude to its desolation. As much of the land is destroyed from within, Egypt’s enemies see their chance to invade from without. When Jehovah withdraws his Spirit because of a people’s evildoing, they are left to their own devices. Their alienation causes Jehovah to close the heavens. They lose the light they once had, and a man’s adversaries become those of his own people. Desperate, they turn to false channels of information—idols, spiritists, mediums, and witchcraft—only to compound their plight (Isaiah 8:19-20; 42:17; 44:17; 45:20). The nation of Egypt in Isaiah’s day was ruled by a non-native Afro-Egyptian (Cushite) pharaoh of Egypt’s 25th dynasty (760-656 B.C.) (cf. Isaiah 18:1; 20:3-5). This was a period of extensive government programs but of moral decline that set the stage for Assyria’s invasion and conquest of Egypt. Like ancient Egypt, end-time “Egypt” deteriorates politically (vv 11-15), experiences economic hardship (vv 8-10), and suffers severe drought conditions (vv 5-7). Egypt—the breadbasket of the world—is reduced to poverty. Only the God of Israel, who rules over all nations, is able to save Egypt (vv 20-24).
I say this is support for a 2nd civil war (rather than support for the 1st civil war) because of its timing: it seems to apply to the time directly preceding the Assyrian's attack, meaning that directly before the attack Egypt (USA) suffers a civil war.

Note that we're currently experiencing almost all markers for fulfillment of that prophecy, meaning that it could reasonably take place within the next few years. We have the inflation (devaluation of the dollar) per the "Chicago prophecy", and we have the political deterioration, economic hardship, and severe drought conditions noted in the above commentary. Next up: being reduced to poverty, which is definitely part of the prophecy, as Isaiah 26:6 says the righteous saved will be poor/impoverished.
It is trodden underfoot by the feet of the poor, by the footsteps of those impoverished.
Last edited by 4Joshua8 on November 29th, 2021, 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

4Joshua8
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2369

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by 4Joshua8 »

gclayjr wrote: November 2nd, 2016, 5:51 am paulrobots,
I think we are coming to the point where the Chicago prophecy, the GAS prophecy, the White Horse prophecy, and 2nd Esdras are going to converge with a vengeance.

Chicago - civil war II due to monetary manipulation.

GAS - president elected but not innaugurated, Russia attacks, starvation.

White Horse - America left without a government, Constitution hanging like a thread, worldwide economic crash, mobbing and racial riots, father against son, daughter against mother, etc.

2 Esdras - 4 presidents in quick succession, then America being taken over by two outside countries/kingdoms/confederations/entities.

4) 2nd Esdras - This is part of the Apocrypha. I believe Joseph Smith said that there is some wisdom here, but that the Apocrypha is not reliable. Also, when the Apocrypha was written, nobody even knew about the new world. How do you even apply this writing, if true. to apply to presidents of the U.S?


Regards,

George Clay
Knowing about the "new world" isn't a requirement for a prophet, because the spirit of prophecy is Jesus Christ's testimony, and Jesus surely knew about the new world, even way back then.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: The evidence on Chicago quote continues to build

Post by Bronco73idi »

4Joshua8 wrote: November 29th, 2021, 1:19 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 1st, 2016, 3:50 pm This quote shows up often on the forum. Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:
“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”
When it would have been made(I believe it is an accurate quote), Chicago would have been much smaller than Nauvoo area(a third the size or so). Interestingly enough it has grown to be a very large city, one of the largest in America. There is one more thing that is telling about Chicago, it is the murder capital of America.http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/01/ ... y-october/This dangerous area looks as though it could be the perfect spot for the outbreak of that prophesied second American civil war. That old quote looks amazingly accurate to me so far, amazingly accurate.

Here's some scriptural support for the idea of a second civil war in the USA.

From Isaiah 19. Here, Egypt is supposed to refer to the latter-day super power of the USA.
I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians; they will fight brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor, city against city and state against state. Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within; I will frustrate their plans, and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists, to mediums and witchcraft. Then will I deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master; a harsh ruler will subject them, says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

Gileadi Commentary on the above verses:
Anarchy and civil war in the great superpower of the world form the prelude to its desolation. As much of the land is destroyed from within, Egypt’s enemies see their chance to invade from without. When Jehovah withdraws his Spirit because of a people’s evildoing, they are left to their own devices. Their alienation causes Jehovah to close the heavens. They lose the light they once had, and a man’s adversaries become those of his own people. Desperate, they turn to false channels of information—idols, spiritists, mediums, and witchcraft—only to compound their plight (Isaiah 8:19-20; 42:17; 44:17; 45:20). The nation of Egypt in Isaiah’s day was ruled by a non-native Afro-Egyptian (Cushite) pharaoh of Egypt’s 25th dynasty (760-656 B.C.) (cf. Isaiah 18:1; 20:3-5). This was a period of extensive government programs but of moral decline that set the stage for Assyria’s invasion and conquest of Egypt. Like ancient Egypt, end-time “Egypt” deteriorates politically (vv 11-15), experiences economic hardship (vv 8-10), and suffers severe drought conditions (vv 5-7). Egypt—the breadbasket of the world—is reduced to poverty. Only the God of Israel, who rules over all nations, is able to save Egypt (vv 20-24).
I say this is support for a 2nd civil war (rather than support for the 1st civil war) because of its timing: it seems to apply to the time directly preceding the Assyrian's attack, meaning that directly before the attack Egypt (USA) suffers a civil war.

Note that we're currently experiencing almost all markers for fulfillment of that prophecy, meaning that it could reasonably take place within the next few years. We have the inflation (devaluation of the dollar) per the "Chicago prophecy", and we have the political deterioration, economic hardship, and sever drought conditions noted in the above commentary. Next up: being reduced to poverty, which is definitely part of the prophecy, as Isaiah 26:6 says the righteous saved will be poor/impoverished.
It is trodden underfoot by the feet of the poor, by the footsteps of those impoverished.
When I read your Isaiah thread I thought of this and Ezra’s Eagle. Another part I think a lot of people skip over is the sun, Isaiah and revelation both talk about things that the sun is easily capable of doing.

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