"A Key That Will Never Rust" Fracturing within the Church? Part 2

[Chris]

... “I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.”...

There is a problem with the quote you give. It is hearsay. Somebody said that Joseph Smith said something.

One problem with hearsay is that even in the next breath conditions could have been put on what was said.

At any rate faithful members covenant to live the "law of the gospel as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants" -- they do NOT covenant to live by every hearsay.

The D&C provides special instructions for ending what it calls a "controversy" over a member of the First Presidency. It concludes, "thus NONE are exempt from the justice and laws of God". Read it yourself: D&C 107:81-84

Furthermore JST Mark 9:40-48 is a second witness that scripture believing Mormons, just like old time religionists, believe that every tub must sit on its own bottom. It says it this way: "Therefore, let EVERY MAN stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another." It makes it clear that EVERY MAN must be ready to stand on his own, even if a brother, a leader, or even the Prophet (the eye) fails.

This is in harmony with the commandment in D&C 38:24-25 that EVERY MAN is to esteem his brother as himself. And it is in harmony with D&C 3 which warned Joseph intensely, notwithstanding the revelations he had been given, that he would fail for sure if he continued to heed the counsel of men over the counsel he was being given by God.

I know many in the church do not want to hear that. It is really cushy to have great leaders that are guaranteed by God to never fail. They are our superiors, and it is insubordination to even question them. The problem is, the SCRIPTURES do not support this doctrine. It is part of another gospel, not the one revealed to Joseph.

In fact, as far as I can tell, this doctrine is the very fulfillment of 2 Nephi 28:21-- it is the pacification that will lead a person to hell. It is a form of idolatry.

The true doctrine is that every member of the church has the right and responsibility to NOT sustain any church leader, including President Monson, and to not reject evidences of sincere controversies over him until the matter is settled fairly-- by the D&C 107:81-84 trial if it comes to that.

Non-leaders to not have the right to teach other doctrines or act in offices they are not called and ordained to, but non-leaders --being equals with the leaders and not subordinates-- do have this one right: the right of legitimate dissent, including the right to not sustain a leader and to not reject evidences that the leader has problems, until it is settled fairly.

watch this it starts at 11:00, it is very clear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_IS1CAzIVg

[Hogmeister]

I do not believe the Davidic servant is an individual (and if he should happen to be a superhuman individual Snuffer would be the least likely pick). Ref D&C 113. The Davidic servant is likely the restored church and priesthood in the end times (The root of Jesse - A pleasing servant to the Lord, collectively but not individually speaking). There is also the possibility that Isaiah is really referring to at least 2 end time servants that may be difficult to separate in his ancient allegory of the end times (at least he talking about 2 servants in Isaiah 11).

Zion is referred to as a woman in the same section (113) but it is clearly explained that she or Zion is a people in the last days, and so is the servant/decendant to whom rightly belongs the priesthood.

I believe the rod/shoot of Jesse that is referred to as a powerful servant (but no priesthood) is also a people or a nation... guess which? A hint is that the rod of Jesse (the powerful servant with no priesthood) will leave the root of Jesse after it has been removed or is cut off. A true branch that will bear good fruit will then be grafted/connected to the root and will thus be connected to the stem (Christ).

[Silver Pie]

you have lost your way. You need to repent while you still can.

He has lost his way because he quotes Jesus and believes what Jesus said? @-)

Really so because he quoted a scripture out of context he is correct.

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. Because he did not quote the whole context, or discuss it in the context you understood it to be (no condescension intended here; I think we often understand the same scriptures differently is all I'm saying), it seemed that he spoke out of turn. I think I now understand where your post was coming from.

[Silver Pie]

I can tell you this with a 100% certainty. DS is going to go to hell!.

Um, you might want to be very, very careful about sending someone else to hell. What if he really is what he claims to be?

You cant claim JS was and is a prophet and the BOM is true and then deny what the BOM and especially the D&C says about this church and the literally 100's of prophecies of Joseph Smith about the destiny of this church which are all true by the way

The Book of Mormon and D&C both call us Gentiles. Both warn us of the danger we are in if we don't repent (the BofM moreso). In fact, Nephi even uses the word "Zion" and Mormon or Moroni (I forget which) calls us "the holy church of God". The D&C says the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again; it doesn't say anything about the organized sect called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

IT boggles my mind you can be so deceived so easily but such a idiot.

Thank you for showing me such Christlike love. I can tell by your kind and respectful words to me that you have the image of God engraven upon your countenance.

Also I am not someone who has never had spiritual experiences.

I never said you didn't.

I have had visions and special sacred experiences with the savior.

So have I.

I have used the priesthood and seen dozens healed instantly.

Cool. We should all be having experiences like this.

I will pray for you but I am shocked who anyone can fall for this crap.

Thank you. I will take all prayers I can get. And, certainly, I believe I am a fool. The more I learn, the more I realize I do not know. The farther I go along in life, the more I see that it is far too easy to be deceived.

[Silver Pie]

IT boggles my mind you can be so deceived so easily but such a idiot as DS.

Oh, you meant by DS. I thought you were calling me an idiot.

[Chris]

I can tell you this with a 100% certainty. DS is going to go to hell!.

Um, you might want to be very, very careful about sending someone else to hell. What if he really is what he claims to be?

You cant claim JS was and is a prophet and the BOM is true and then deny what the BOM and especially the D&C says about this church and the literally 100's of prophecies of Joseph Smith about the destiny of this church which are all true by the way

The Book of Mormon and D&C both call us Gentiles. Both warn us of the danger we are in if we don't repent (the BofM moreso). In fact, Nephi even uses the word "Zion" and Mormon or Moroni (I forget which) calls us "the holy church of God". The D&C says the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again; it doesn't say anything about the organized sect called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

IT boggles my mind you can be so deceived so easily but such a idiot.

Thank you for showing me such Christlike love. I can tell by your kind and respectful words to me that you have the image of God engraven upon your countenance.

Also I am not someone who has never had spiritual experiences.

I never said you didn't.

I have had visions and special sacred experiences with the savior.

So have I.

I have used the priesthood and seen dozens healed instantly.

That's awesome. Please use your priesthood to heal me. There is something I have prayed earnestly to be healed from for a dozen years, and don't seem to have the faith for it. (God knows what it is and I don't desire to broadcast it on a forum, so between you and him.)

I will pray for you but I am shocked who anyone can fall for this crap.

Thank you. I will take all prayers I can get. And, certainly, I believe I am a fool. The more I learn, the more I realize I do not know. The farther I go along in life, the more I see that it is far too easy to be deceived.

I do know with a 100% certainty that DS is an apostate and is in danger of going to hell unless he makes a 180 very soon and does some major repenting. His whole premise is based on a couple small scriptures taken out of context. That is the amazing things that baffles my mind and makes it want to explode. His whole movement is based on a couple very small twisted scriptures. And surprisingly people actually follow him. They disregard the other 99999.999999% of the scriptures and Josephs Teaching that completely counter what he is trying to do and what he is saying. that is what I don't get.........

[Zion2080]

I can tell you this with a 100% certainty. DS is going to go to hell!.

Um, you might want to be very, very careful about sending someone else to hell. What if he really is what he claims to be?

You cant claim JS was and is a prophet and the BOM is true and then deny what the BOM and especially the D&C says about this church and the literally 100's of prophecies of Joseph Smith about the destiny of this church which are all true by the way

The Book of Mormon and D&C both call us Gentiles. Both warn us of the danger we are in if we don't repent (the BofM moreso). In fact, Nephi even uses the word "Zion" and Mormon or Moroni (I forget which) calls us "the holy church of God". The D&C says the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again; it doesn't say anything about the organized sect called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

IT boggles my mind you can be so deceived so easily but such a idiot.

Thank you for showing me such Christlike love. I can tell by your kind and respectful words to me that you have the image of God engraven upon your countenance.

Also I am not someone who has never had spiritual experiences.

I never said you didn't.

I have had visions and special sacred experiences with the savior.

So have I.

I have used the priesthood and seen dozens healed instantly.

That's awesome. Please use your priesthood to heal me. There is something I have prayed earnestly to be healed from for a dozen years, and don't seem to have the faith for it. (God knows what it is and I don't desire to broadcast it on a forum, so between you and him.)

I will pray for you but I am shocked who anyone can fall for this crap.

Thank you. I will take all prayers I can get. And, certainly, I believe I am a fool. The more I learn, the more I realize I do not know. The farther I go along in life, the more I see that it is far too easy to be deceived.

I do know with a 100% certainty that DS is an apostate and is in danger of going to hell unless he makes a 180 very soon and does some major repenting. His whole premise is based on a couple small scriptures taken out of context. That is the amazing things that baffles my mind and makes it want to explode. His whole movement is based on a couple very small twisted scriptures. And surprisingly people actually follow him. They disregard the other 99999.999999% of the scriptures and Josephs Teaching that completely counter what he is trying to do and what he is saying. that is what I don't get.........

Wait. Who is DS?

[Chris]

I can tell you this with a 100% certainty. DS is going to go to hell!.

Um, you might want to be very, very careful about sending someone else to hell. What if he really is what he claims to be?

You cant claim JS was and is a prophet and the BOM is true and then deny what the BOM and especially the D&C says about this church and the literally 100's of prophecies of Joseph Smith about the destiny of this church which are all true by the way

The Book of Mormon and D&C both call us Gentiles. Both warn us of the danger we are in if we don't repent (the BofM moreso). In fact, Nephi even uses the word "Zion" and Mormon or Moroni (I forget which) calls us "the holy church of God". The D&C says the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again; it doesn't say anything about the organized sect called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

IT boggles my mind you can be so deceived so easily but such a idiot.

Thank you for showing me such Christlike love. I can tell by your kind and respectful words to me that you have the image of God engraven upon your countenance.

Also I am not someone who has never had spiritual experiences.

I never said you didn't.

I have had visions and special sacred experiences with the savior.

So have I.

I have used the priesthood and seen dozens healed instantly.

That's awesome. Please use your priesthood to heal me. There is something I have prayed earnestly to be healed from for a dozen years, and don't seem to have the faith for it. (God knows what it is and I don't desire to broadcast it on a forum, so between you and him.)

I will pray for you but I am shocked who anyone can fall for this crap.

Thank you. I will take all prayers I can get. And, certainly, I believe I am a fool. The more I learn, the more I realize I do not know. The farther I go along in life, the more I see that it is far too easy to be deceived.

I do know with a 100% certainty that DS is an apostate and is in danger of going to hell unless he makes a 180 very soon and does some major repenting. His whole premise is based on a couple small scriptures taken out of context. That is the amazing things that baffles my mind and makes it want to explode. His whole movement is based on a couple very small twisted scriptures. And surprisingly people actually follow him. They disregard the other 99999.999999% of the scriptures and Josephs Teaching that completely counter what he is trying to do and what he is saying. that is what I don't get.........

Wait. Who is DS?

Denver Snuffer

[Silver Pie]

I do know with a 100% certainty that DS is an apostate and is in danger of going to hell unless he makes a 180 very soon and does some major repenting. His whole premise is based on a couple small scriptures taken out of context.

That's interesting that you say that. I've listened to him many times, and he often quotes scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture. He has a whole lot more than two scriptures taken out of context to prove that God wants us to come into His presence in this life, for example.

Though, with what he said at the general conference of the fellowships a week ago, I can see why you'd be alarmed. It even made me step back and decide to rely totally on God for my answers.

[BackBlast]

I'm so excited for September 23! I can't wait to see what unfolds!

The church teaches us to not gamble. That's the only reason why I'm not willing to bet $5,000 that nothing big and bad happens from September 16 through September 30.

That's a sucker bet. If he wins, he collects useless cash.

Though you have made it a bit vague, "big and bad" is in the eye of the beholder.

[erichard]

The quote is hearsay because it is always somebody saying Joseph Smith said something. One cannot find record of Joseph saying it himself.

I agree that is is probably an accurate quote of what Joseph said. But one cannot use it to contradict what faithful members COVENANT to live by: the Doctrine and Covenants.

[erichard]

If Denver is a true Prophet, why does he not receive and write "Word of the Lord" oracles in the same PATTERN as the Prophet Joseph, the Bible prophets, and all other Prophets of Israel?

He is a well educated and experienced lawyer, and he is good at making long complicated cases. But this is not a day of many words.

My most spiritual friend read his stuff, a lot of it, and prayed about it. His response was that that Denver is using many pure doctrines to establish a few false doctrines and suggesting things that are against the Lord's will. In fact Denver has been totally taken over by the evil one for the purpose of drawing away the wicked from the righteous.

[Hogmeister]

I've read 7 pages of his latest "testimony of John". Didn't come close to pass as revealed scripture in my experience. Revealed scripture is clear, sharp, accurate, consistent, do not multiply words and contains no "fluff". I could have made a more convincing case of scripture myself (but I never would). Besides he thought he was clever in writing the "testimony of John the beloved" but utterly missed the plot. The section in D&C that refers to the testimony of John is talking about John the baptists testimony. John the beloved was not there when Christ was baptised that is why he refers to John the baptist in the first chapter of the gospel of John. Snuffer is unfortunately a deciever but they have a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

[Silver Pie]

Hogmeister and erichard, I definitely believe that God is in charge and that all false prophets will fall by the wayside at some point in time. I also believe that it is vitally important that we are able to discern true messengers from false one. And, really, the bottom line is to go with what God tells you, personally.