Is John The Beloved the Davidic King?

[Kingdom of ZION]

^^^^^^ I would start with Isaiah Decoded, and also listen to his audio commentary -- a verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah found on his website, Isaiah Explained (iirc).

I've read most of his books, and listened to the entire commentary numerous times. He is more correct than most LDS commentators on Isaiah. My favorites of his books are Isaiah Decoded and The Last Days.

Fwiw, I started listening to Avraham's commentary in 2005, on borrowed cassette tapes. Then I upgraded to his MP3 edition downloaded to my iPod. It's a huge blessing that it's now available on the internet.

I attended a few of his first public lectures on Isaiah in 1991, and have known him for years. I have all of his published works in print and the electronic texts of them. I also have mp3s of his Isaiah Commentary, The End from the Beginning, and The Last Days.

I believe he sees the Estates in Isaiah, preferring to think you can make those ascensions in one life time, whereas I disagree with him on this interpretation.

Also, he sees the Davidic Servant/King as a catch all for all the servants depicted in Isaiah, whereas I know this to not be true. We are coming to the point in the end time where it will not matter what each others ideas are, as they will be found before us.

[jwharton]

We are coming to the point in the end time where it will not matter what each others ideas are, as they will be found before us.

How can this happen when it is our ideas that govern what we are able to perceive that is before us?
The Savior said if we weren't vigilant that His coming would be as if He were a thief in the night.
This doesn't mean He is deliberately operating out of stealth, but that the people would be in the dark.
Only those who have the "right ideas" (so to speak) will have the field of vision required to recognize Him.
I believe the scriptures are correct when they say "all shall see him" but that doesn't mean "all shall recognize him".

[Kingdom of ZION]

I personally know people who have been turned down by their bishops because they would not apply for government assistance. In one case, when the bishop knew they were not receiving help from the church or government, but were still getting by, he asked where the aid was coming from. When told that friends were helping, he said, I haven't seen you pay any tithing on that. Hand over the tithing or your recommends.

I personally don't know anyone who's been turned down by the church, and I personally know many who have been helped by the church.
Lame bishops, like the one you mentioned, are not following the counsel of prophets and apostles. Judging the church as a whole by a few lame brains is a mistake that should be repented of.

Under the United Order system the church had to run a tight operation and had only sufficient for their needs. However, there was a common fund that enabled the consecrated wealth of the saints to be made use of without usury for the benefit of the members and the church. It alleviated the need for the people and the church to have external debts to Babylon, which has usury. Unfortunately, the people were slothful and reluctant to turn in their surplus and so the system didn't work properly for the people or the church.

Under the current system of tithing on gross income instead of on net increase (surplus), the church has huge amounts of cash way beyond what is merely sufficient for its needs and it doesn't have to manage a common fund with fiduciary responsibilities but can dispose of tithes in any manner it pleases. This was a very drastic alteration to the basis upon which tithes are collected. And, this change was never explicitly carried out as such, it has just been nurtured and fostered along as such. This is why there are still bishops to this day that will allow someone to declare themselves a full tithed payer even though they didn't pay any tithing at all, because they had no surplus. They will generally say it is between them and the Lord, which has been the official policy unless it has finally been officially decreed to be 10% of your gross income with no other methodology allowed.

Under the Father's system tithing was never meant to be something that added to a person's indebtedness and it certainly shouldn't ever be something that cuts into their sustenance. But, our departure from the Celestial Economic system of the Father's Kingdom has massively shifted things such that the church is extremely wealthy and the saints are not liberated from Babylon but are in fact significantly depressed in their individual economic conditions. But, lesser laws are always more unjust and oppressive so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

The important thing to remain clear on is in holy writ the Father speaks from His point of view and so we have to keep our eye single to His glory and seek first His kingdom and then we will be better able to see things from His point of view.

I agree they have abandoned the Economic Order of Enoch. However, I believe that Tithing was never really part of the Law of Consecration, but is what a Man pays to the Priesthood. As best I can understand, is that it is on increase, not gross or net. But that is a topic that would most likely need its own threaded, as there would be vast differing opinions upon the subject.

Shalom

[Kingdom of ZION]

If you think the application of tithing is the key to the celestial kingdom, you'd be thinking incorrectly.
Tithing isn't even a celestial law, the law of consecration is.
And look at all who fight tithing by claiming it's too much.

I hope you will please hear me out fully and sincerely.
I hope you please independently research this out.

You cannot separate the Law of Consecration and tithing.
The Law of Consecration fully implemented still includes tithing.
Is all separating them does is corrupt and pervert tithing's true purpose.
Please consider the possibility that you have a faulty understanding of United Orders.

When someone joins a United Order they are tithed on their current net worth.
They retain possession of whatever is going to continue to be their stewardship.
They surrender their remaining surplus that goes into the common fund.
Whatever someone consecrates after it is tithed is credited as their inheritance.
Each succeeding year if they have increase, only that increase is tithed and consecrated.
Then, whatever is surplus goes into the common fund and increases their inheritance.

So, the bishop of a United Order has both a tithing account and the common fund to administer.
The bishop is able to use tithes to his discretion to cover expenses for the church and so on.
Where the common fund is concerned those funds represent the inheritances of the saints.
So, the bishop is not in a position to consume those funds, but he administers use of those funds.
The purpose of the common fund, as I said earlier, is to alleviate the need for any external debts to Babylon.
The whole purpose and design of the United Order system was so that all the saints would have economic sovereignty.
It was to put us in a position to entirely avert the coming calamity, which will be a global financial calamity.

Scriptural references to "tithes" is a reference to it in the context of the Father's economic system. The same system Melchizedek of old administered when he established his translated society. The same system Enoch used and of course the same system Adam implemented once he was redeemed.

Please read Malachi chapter 3 and section 85 of the Doctrine and Covenants and look for the connections between them.

7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

D&C 85
1 IT is the duty of the Lord's clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.
3 It is contrary to the will and commandment of God that those who receive not their inheritance by consecration, agreeable to his law, which he has given, that he may tithe his people, to prepare them against the day of vengeance and burning, should have their names enrolled with the people of God.
4 Neither is their genealogy to be kept, or to be had where it may be found on any of the records or history of the church.
5 Their names shall not be found, neither the names of the fathers, nor the names of the children written in the book of the law of God, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.
9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.
10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.
11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;
12 Therefore, it shall be done unto them as unto the children of the priest, as will be found recorded in the second chapter and sixty-first and second verses of Ezra.

These key phrases tell us the exact solution that we need right now:

ye are gone away from mine ordinances...
ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...
Return unto me, and I will return unto you...
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes...

This chapter tells us that we are currently out of order and that the whole nation has been robbed.
The Father is telling us to return to the celestial laws we have gone away from.
To do this there must be a correction to return to the celestial way of doing things.
There is no storehouse but there are huge amounts of tithes in the church accounts.
So, each member will calculate their true tithe based upon their net worth.
Any tithes they have paid above that are reallocated into the common fund on their behalf.
Thus, the over-payment of tithes will be transferred into the common fund, which is the storehouse.
This is why it says bring all the (out of order) tithes into the storehouse so that they can do what God intends.
And, the intention of the common fund is to eliminate everyone's need to get capital from Babylon.

If we as a body of saints are able to completely withdraw from the Babylon economic system, we will avoid being spoiled when everything crashes down.
There needs to be a common fund where the rich are made low (but not stolen from) and the less fortunate can be liberated from financial bondage.

I agree though I see that we are to when needed to reconsecrate our excess as we are blessed, and that tithing, though it goes hand in hand with consecration, it stands apart and is for a dedicated purpose, much like the support of old to the Tribe of Levi.

[jwharton]

I believe that Tithing was never really part of the Law of Consecration

This belief seems to be nearly universal among the LDS but I believe it is false.
As I understand it, tithing is an essential component of the United Order system.
But, you are correct, this belongs in a thread of its own.

[jwharton]

I agree though I see that we are to when needed to reconsecrate our excess as we are blessed, and that tithing, though it goes hand in hand with consecration, it stands apart and is for a dedicated purpose, much like the support of old to the Tribe of Levi.

There is definitely a connection here between bishops of the United Order and the tribe of Levi.

It is the tribe of Levi who has the responsibility to administer the entire common fund and all of its associated resources.
They administer all of the common properties, perform the priestly duties, judge in all temporal matters, etc.
In order to do this they collect a tithe of all that is consecrated to cover their expenses in performing these duties.

The tithing fund and the common fund are two separate funds.
The Levitical priests (bishops) retain a tithe of what is consecrated.
The 90% portion of the consecration is credited to the common fund.
Each participating person who consecrates has their portion of the common fund.
This is their individual inheritance that the D&C talks about people establishing via consecration.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
Feel free to start a new thread and invite me to join if you want to discuss this any further.

[simpleton]

Beings Levi was brought up and he is one of our ancestors let's see what he has to say about us and our day:

TESTAMENT OF LEVI

The Third Son of Jacob and Leah.

CHAP. I.

Levi, the third son of Jacob and Leah. A mystic and dreamer of dreams, a prophet.

THE copy of the words of Levi, the things which he ordained unto his sons, according to all that they should do, and what things should befall them until the day of judgement.

2 He was sound in health when he called them to him; for it had been revealed to him that he should die.

3 And when they were gathered together he said to them:

4 I, Levi, was born in Haran, and I came with my father to Shechem.

5 And I was young, about twenty years of age, when, with Simeon, I wrought vengeance on Hamor for our sister Dinah.

6 And when I was feeding the flocks in Abel-Maul, the spirit of understand of the Lord came upon me, and I saw all men corrupting their way, and that unrighteousness

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had built for itself walls, and lawlessness sat upon towers.

7 And I was grieving for the race of the sons of men, and I prayed to the Lord that I might be saved.

8 Then there fell upon me a sleep, and I beheld a high mountain, and I was upon it.

9 And behold the heavens were opened, and an angel of God said to me, Levi, enter.

10 And I entered from the first heaven, and I saw there a great sea hanging.

11 And further I saw a second heaven far brighter and more brilliant, for there was a boundless light also therein,

12 And I said to the angel, Why is this so? And the angel said to me, Marvel not at this, for thou shalt see another heaven more brilliant and incomparable.

13 And when thou hast ascended thither, Thou shalt stand near the Lord, and shalt be His minister, and shalt, declare His mysteries to men, and shalt proclaim concerning Him that shall redeem Israel.

14 And by thee and Judah shall the Lord appear among men, saving every race of men.

15 And from the Lord's portion shall be thy life, and He shall be thy field and vineyard, and fruits, gold, and silver.

16 Hear, therefore, regarding the heavens which have been shown to thee.

17 The lowest is for this cause gloomy unto thee, in that it beholds all the unrighteous deeds of men.

18 And it has fire, snow, and ice made ready for the day of judgement, in the righteous judgement of God; for in it are all the spirits of the retributions for vengeance on men.

19 And in the second are the hosts Of the armies which are ordained for the day of judgement, to work vengeance on the spirits of deceit and of Beliar.

20 And above them are the holy ones.

21 And in the highest of all dwelleth the Great Glory, far above all holiness.

22 In the heaven next to it are the archangels, who minister and make propitiation to the Lord for all the sins of ignorance of the righteous;

23 Offering to the Lord a sweet smelling savour, a reasonable and a bloodless offering.

24 And in the heaven below this are the angels who bear answers to the angels of the presence of the Lord.

25 And in the heaven next to this are thrones and dominions, in which always they offer praise to God.

26 When, therefore, the Lord looketh upon us, all of us are shaken; yea, the heavens, and the earth, and the abysses are shaken at the presence of His majesty.

27 But the sons of men, having no perception of these things, sin and provoke the Most High.
CHAP. II.

Levi urges piety and education.

NOW, therefore, know that the Lord shall execute judgement upon the sons of men.

2 Because when the rocks are being rent, and the sun quenched, and the waters dried up, and the fire cowering, and all creation troubled, and the invisible spirits melting away, and Hades taketh spoils through the visitations of the Most High, men will be unbelieving and persist in their iniquity.

3 On this account with punishment shall they be judged.

4 Therefore the Most High hath heard thy prayer, to separate

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thee from iniquity, and that thou shouldst become to Him a son, and a servant, and a minister of His presence.

5 The light of knowledge shalt thou light up in Jacob, and as the sun shalt thou be to all the seed of Israel.

6 And there shall be given to thee a blessing, and to all thy seed until the Lord shall visit all the Gentiles in His tender mercies for ever.

7 And therefore there have been given to thee counsel and understanding, that thou mightest instruct thy sons concerning this;

8 Because they that bless Him shall be blessed, and they that curse Him shall perish.

9 And thereupon the angel opened to me the gates of heaven, and I saw the holy temple, and upon a throne of glory the Most High.

10 And He said to me: Levi, I have given thee the blessing of the priesthood until I come and sojourn in the midst of Israel.

11 Then the angel brought me down to the earth, and gave me a shield and a sword, and said to me: Execute vengeance on Shechem because of Dinah, thy sister, and I will be with thee because the Lord hath sent me.

12 And I destroyed at that time the sons of Hamor, as it is written in the heavenly tables.

13 And I said to him: I pray thee, O Lord, tell me Thy name, that I may call upon Thee in a day of tribulation.

14 And he said: I am the angel who intercedeth for the nation of Israel that they may not be smitten utterly, for every evil spirit attacketh it.

15 And after these things I awaked, and blessed the Most High, and the angel who intercedeth for the nation of Israel and for all the righteous.
CHAP. III.

Levi has visions and shows what rewards are in store for the righteous.

AND when I was going to my father, I found a brazen shield; wherefore also the name of the mountain is Aspis, which is near Gebal, to the south of Abila.

2 And I kept these words in my heart. And after this I counselled my father, and Reuben my brother, to bid the sons of Hamor not to be circumcised; for I was zealous because of the abomination which they had wrought on my sister.

3 And I slew Shechem first, and Simeon slew Hamor. And after this my brothers came and smote that city with the edge of the sword.

4 And my father heard these things and was wroth, and he was grieved in that they had received the circumcision, and after that had been put to death, and in his blessings he looked amiss upon us.

5 For we sinned because we had done this thing against his will, and he was sick on that day.

6 But I saw that the sentence of God was for evil upon Shechem; for they sought to do to Sarah and Rebecca as they had done to Dinah our sister, but the Lord prevented them.

7 And they persecuted Abraham our father when he was a stranger, and they vexed his flocks when they were big with young; and Eblaen, who was born in his house, they most shamefully handled.

8 And thus they did to all strangers, taking away their wives by force, and they banished them.

9 But the wrath of the Lord came upon them to the uttermost.

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10 And I said to my father Jacob: By thee will the Lord despoil the Canaanites, and will give their land to thee and to thy seed after thee.

11 For from this day forward shall Shechem be called a city of imbeciles; for as a man mocketh a fool, so did we mock them.

12 Because also they had wrought folly in Israel by defiling my sister. And we departed and came to Bethel.

13 And there again I saw a vision as the former, after we had spent there seventy days.

14 And I saw seven men in white raiment saying unto me: Arise, put on the robe of the priesthood, and the crown of righteousness, and the breastplate of understanding, and the garment of truth, and the late of faith, and the turban of the head, and the ephod of prophecy.

15 And they severally carried these things and put them on me, and said unto me: From henceforth become a priest of the Lord, thou and thy seed for ever.

16 And the first anointed me with holy oil, and gave to me the staff of judgement.

17 The second washed me with pure. water, and fed me with bread and wine even the most holy things, and clad me with a holy and glorious robe.

18 The third clothed me with a linen vestment like an ephod.

19 The fourth put round me a girdle like unto purple.

20 The fifth gave me a branch of rich olive.

21 The sixth placed a crown on my head.

22 The seventh placed on my head a diadem of priesthood, and filled my hands with incense, that I might serve as priest to the Lord God.

23 And they said to me: Levi, thy seed shall be divided into three offices, for a sign of the glory of the Lord who is to come.

24 And the first portion shall be great; yea, greater than it shall none be.

25 The second shall be in the priesthood.

26 And the third shall be called by a new name, because a king shall arise in Judah, and shall establish a new priesthood, after the fashion of the Gentiles.

27 And His presence is beloved, as a prophet of the Most High, of the seed of Abraham our father.

28 Therefore, every desirable thing in Israel shall be for thee and for thy seed, and ye shall eat everything fair to look upon, and the table of the Lord shall thy seed apportion.

29 And some of them shall be high priests, and judges, and scribes; for by their mouth shall the holy place be guarded.

30 And when I awoke, I understood that this dream was like the first dream. And I hid this also in my heart, and told it not to any man upon the earth.

31 And after two days I and Judah went up with our father Jacob to Isaac our father's father.

32 And my father's father blessed me according to all the words of the visions which I had seen. And he would not come with us to Bethel.

33 And when we came to Bethel, my father saw a vision concerning me, that I should be their priest unto God.

34 And he rose up early in the morning, and paid tithes of all to the Lord through me. And so we came to Hebron to dwell there.

35 And Isaac called me continually to put me in remembrance of the law of the Lord, even as the angel of the Lord showed unto me.

36 And he taught me the law of the priesthood of sacrifices,

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whole burnt-offerings, first-fruits, freewill-offerings, peace-offerings.

37 And each day he was instructing me, and was busied on my behalf before the Lord, and said to me: Beware of the spirit of fornication; for this shall continue and shall by thy seed pollute the holy place.

38 Take, therefore, to thyself a wife without blemish or pollution, while yet thou are young, and not of the race of strange nations.

39 And before entering into the holy place, bathe; and when thou offerest the sacrifice, wash; and again, when thou finishest the sacrifice, wash.

40 Of twelve trees having leaves offer to the Lord, as Abraham taught me also.

41 And of every clean beast and bird offer a sacrifice to the Lord.

42 And of all thy first-fruits and of wine offer the first, as a sacrifice to the Lord God; and every sacrifice thou shalt salt with salt.

43 Now, therefore, observe whatsoever I command you, children; for whatsoever things I have heard from my fathers I have declared unto you.

44 And behold I am clear from your ungodliness and transgression, which ye shall commit in the end of the ages against the Saviour of the world, Christ, acting godlessly, deceiving Israel, and stirring up against it great evils from the Lord.

45 And ye shall deal lawlessly together with Israel, so He shall not bear with Jerusalem because of your wickedness; but the veil of the temple shall be rent, so as not to cover your shame.

46 And ye shall be scattered as captives among the Gentiles, and shall be for a reproach and for a curse there.

47 For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as is contained in the book of Enoch the righteous.

48 Therefore when I took a wife I was twenty-eight years old, and her name was Melcha.

49 And she conceived and bare a son, and I called his name Gersam, for we were sojourners in our land.

50 And I saw concerning him, that he would not be in the first rank.

51 And Kohath was born in the thirty-fifth year of my life, towards sunrise.

52 And I saw in a vision that he was standing on high in the midst of all the congregation.

53 Therefore I called his name Kohath which is, beginning of majesty and instruction.

54 And she bare me a third son, in the fortieth year of my life; and since his mother bare him with difficulty, I called him Merari, that is, 'my bitterness,' because he also was like to die.

55 And Jochebed was born. in Egypt, in my sixty-fourth year, for I was renowned then in the midst of my brethren.

56 And Gersam took a wife, and she bare to him Lomni and Semei. And the sons of Kohath, Ambram, Issachar, Hebron, and Ozeel. And the sons of Merari, Mooli, and Mouses.

57 And in the ninety-fourth year Ambram took Jochebed my daughter to him to wife, for they were born in one day, he and my daughter.

58 Eight years old was I when I went into the land of Canaan, and eighteen years when I slew Shechem, and at nineteen years I became priest, and at twenty-eight years I took a wife, and at forty-eight I went into Egypt.

59 And behold, my children, ye are a third generation. In my hundred and eighteenth year Joseph died.
CHAP. IV.

Levi shows how wisdom survives destruction. He has no use for scornful people.

AND now, my children, I command you: Fear the Lord your God with your whole heart, and walk in simplicity according to all His law.

2 And do ye also teach your children letters, that they may have understanding all their life, reading unceasingly the law of God.

3 For every one that knoweth the law of the Lord shall be honoured, and shall not be a stranger whithersoever he goeth.

4 Yea, many friends shall he gain more than his parents, and many men shall desire to serve him, and to hear the law from his mouth.

5 Work righteousness, therefore, my children, upon the earth, that ye may have it as a treasure in heaven.

6 And sow good things in your souls, that ye may find them in your life.

7 But if ye sow evil things, ye shall reap every trouble and affliction.

8 Get wisdom in the fear of God with diligence; for though there be a leading into captivity, and cities and lands be destroyed, and gold and silver and every possession perish, the wisdom of the wise nought can take away, save the blindness of ungodliness, and the callousness that comes of sin.

9 For if one keep oneself from these evil things, then even among his enemies shall wisdom be a glory to him, and in a strange country a fatherland, and in the midst of foes shall prove a friend.

10 Whosoever teaches noble things and does them, shall be enthroned with kings, as was also Joseph my brother.

11 Therefore, my children, I have learnt that at the end of the ages ye will transgress against the Lord, stretching out hands to wickedness against Him; and to all the Gentiles shall ye become a scorn.

12 For our father Israel is pure from the transgressions of the chief priests [who shall lay their hands upon the Saviour of the world].

13 For as the heaven is purer in the Lord's sight than the earth, so also be ye, the lights of Israel, purer than all the Gentiles.

14 But if ye be darkened through transgressions, what, therefore, will all the Gentiles do living in blindness?

15 Yea, ye shall bring a curse upon our race, because the light of the law which was given for to lighten every man this ye desire to destroy by teaching commandments contrary to the ordinances of God.

16 The offerings of the Lord ye shall rob, and from His portion shall ye steal choice portions, eating them contemptuously with harlots.

17 And out of covetousness ye shall teach the commandments of the Lord, wedded women shall ye pollute, and the virgins of Jerusalem shall ye defile; and with harlots and adulteresses shall ye be joined, and the daughters of the Gentiles shall ye take to wife, purifying them with an unlawful purification; and your union shall be like unto Sodom and Gomorrah,

18 And ye shall be puffed up because of your priesthood, lifting yourselves up against men, and not only so, but also against the commands of God.

19 For ye shall contemn the holy things with jests and laughter.

20 Therefore the temple, which the Lord shall choose, shall be laid waste through your

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uncleanness, and ye shall be captives throughout all nations.

21 And ye shall be an abomination unto them, and ye shall receive reproach and everlasting shame from the righteous judgement of God.

22 And all who hate you shall rejoice at your destruction.

23 And if you were not to receive mercy through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers, not one of our seed should be left upon the earth.

24 And now I have learnt that for seventy weeks ye shall go astray, and profane the priesthood, and pollute the sacrifices.

25 And ye shall make void the law, and set at nought the words of the prophets by evil perverseness.

26 And ye shall persecute righteous men, and hate the godly; the words of the faithful shall ye abhor.

27 And a man who reneweth the law in the power of the Most High, ye shall call a deceiver; and at last ye shall rush upon him to slay him, not knowing his dignity, taking innocent blood through wickedness upon your heads.

28 And your holy places shall be laid waste even to the ground because of him.

29 And ye shall have no place that is clean; but ye shall be among the Gentiles a curse and a dispersion until He shall again visit you, and in pity shall receive you through faith and water.
CHAP. V.

He prophesies the coming of the Messiah. This was written 100 years before Christ.

AND whereas ye have heard concerning the seventy weeks, hear also concerning the priesthood. For in each jubilee there shall be a priesthood.

2 And in the first jubilee, the first who is anointed to the priesthood shall be great, and shall speak to God as to a father.

3 And his priesthood shall be perfect with the Lord, and in the day of his gladness shall he arise for the salvation of the world.

4 In the second jubilee, he that is anointed shall be conceived in the sorrow of beloved ones; and his priesthood shall be honoured and shall be glorified by all.

5 And the third priest shall he taken hold of by sorrow.

6 And the fourth shall be in pain, because unrighteousness shall gather itself against him exceedingly, and all Israel shall hate each one his neighbour.

7 The fifth shall be taken hold of by darkness. Likewise also the sixth and the seventh.

8 And in the seventh shall, be such pollution as I cannot express before men, for they shall know it who do these things.

9 Therefore shall they be taken captive and become a prey, and their land and their substance shall be destroyed.

10 And in the fifth week they shall return to their desolate country, and shall renew the house of the Lord.

11 And in the seventh week shall become priests, who are idolaters, adulterers, lovers of money, proud, lawless, lascivious, abusers of children and beasts.

12 And after their punishment shall have come from the Lord, the priesthood shall fail.

13 Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest.

14 And to him all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and he shall execute a righteous judgement upon the earth for a multitude of days.

15 And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king.

16 Lighting up the light of knowledge as the sun the day, and he shall be magnified in the world.

p. 233

17 He shall shine forth as the sun on the earth, and shall remove all darkness from under heaven, and there shall be peace in all the earth.

18 The heavens shall exult in his days, and the earth shall be glad, and the clouds shall rejoice;

19 And the knowledge of the Lord shall be poured forth upon the earth, as the water of the seas;

20 And the angels of the glory of the presence of the Lord shall be glad in him.

21 The heavens shall be opened, and from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification, with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.

22 And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him, and the spirit of understanding and sanctification shall rest upon him in the water.

23 For he shall give the majesty of the Lord to His sons in truth for evermore;

24 And there shall none succeed him for all generations for ever.

25 And in his priesthood the Gentiles shall be multiplied in knowledge upon the earth, and enlightened through the grace of the Lord. In his priesthood shall sin come to an end, and the lawless shall cease to do evil.

26 And he shall open the gates of paradise, and shall remove the threatening sword against Adam, and he shall give to the saints to eat from the tree of life, and the spirit of holiness shall be on them.

27 And Beliar shall be bound by him, and he shall give power to His children to tread upon the evil spirits.

28 And the Lord shall rejoice in His children, and be well pleased in His beloved ones for ever.

29 Then shall Abraham and Isaac and Jacob exult, and I will be glad, and all the saints shall clothe themselves with joy.

30 And now, my children, ye have heard all; choose, therefore, for yourselves either the light or the darkness, either the law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.

31 And his sons answered him., saying, Before the Lord we will walk according to His law.

32 And their father said unto them, The Lord is witness, and His angels are witnesses, and ye are witnesses, and I am witness, concerning the word of your mouth.

33 And his sons said unto him: We are witnesses.

34 And thus Levi ceased commanding his sons; and he stretched out his feet on the bed, and was gathered to his fathers, after he had lived a hundred and thirty-seven years.

35 And they laid him in a coffin, and afterwards they buried him in Hebron, with I Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Actually all of the testaments of the 12 patriarchs is very good reading...

[Kingdom of ZION]

We are coming to the point in the end time where it will not matter what each others ideas are, as they will be found before us.

How can this happen when it is our ideas that govern what we are able to perceive that is before us?
The Savior said if we weren't vigilant that His coming would be as if He were a thief in the night.
This doesn't mean He is deliberately operating out of stealth, but that the people would be in the dark.
Only those who have the "right ideas" (so to speak) will have the field of vision required to recognize Him.
I believe the scriptures are correct when they say "all shall see him" but that doesn't mean "all shall recognize him".

How can this happen? If a physical man comes forth and is called the Davidic Servant/King, verses a people as some think. It will be clearly one or the other, to those who watch.

As for the Messiah coming as a Thief in the night? 1st Thessalonians 5 answer this well.

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So He will not come as a Thief in the Night to those who watch for Him. The same is true for His servants that come as His forerunners. When Zion is established, a Temple is built in the New Jerusalem, the Ten Tribes return, and many other prophesied events happen, and there is a Prophet who comes and is called David... I think even those who do not believe will have to admit, this is the servant foretold.

[simpleton]

The great American Republic is now one of the most powerful governments in the world . . . . But that great–that powerful nation–is destined to an utter overthrow. If it be asked, why is America to suffer? The answer is, because they have rejected the kingdom of God, and one of the greatest divine messages ever sent to man; because they have sanctioned the killing of the Saints, and the martyrdom of the Lord’s Prophets, and have suffered his people to be driven from their midst, and have robbed them of their houses, and homes, and land, and millions of property, and have refused to redress their wrongs.

For these great evils, they must suffer; the decrees of Jehovah have gone forth against them; the sword of the Lord has been unsheathed, and will fall with pain upon their devoted heads. Their great and magnificent cities are to be cut off. New York, Boston, Albany, and numerous other cities will be left desolate. Party will be arrayed in deadly strife against party; State against State; and the whole nation will be broken up; the sanguinary weapons of the dreadful revolution will devour the land. Then shall there be a fleeing from one city to another, from one State to another, from one part of the continent to another, seeking refuge, from the devastations of bandits and armies; then shall their dead be left unburied, and the fowls of heaven shall summer upon them, and the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

Moreover, the Lord will visit them with the deadly pestilence which shall sweep away many millions by its ravages; for their eyes shall fall from their sockets, and their flesh from their bones, and their tongues shall be staid in their mouths, that they shall not be able to blaspheme against their Maker. And it will come to pass, that the heavens will withhold their rains and their fruitful fields be turned into barrenness, and the waters of their rivers will be dried up, and left in standing pools, and the fish therein will die; and the Lord will send forth a grievous plague to destroy the horses and cattle from the land. Thus by the sword and by pestilence, and by famine, and by the strong arm of the Almighty, shall the inhabitants of that wicked nation be destroyed. In that day a remnant shall repent, and be numbered with the people of Zion, and shall know that the Lord hath spoken, and hath fulfilled his decrees upon the land, and executed his fierce justice upon the oppressors of his people. (Orson Pratt, Mill Star, 28:633-34, 1866; Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, pp. 156-157)

[simpleton]

The internal fires of revolution are already smouldering in this nation, and they need but a spark to set them in a flame. Already are agencies at work in the land calculated to subvert and overthrow every principle of rule and government; already is corruption of every kind prevailing in high places and permeating all society; already are we, as a nation, departing from our God and corrupting ourselves with malfeasance, dishonor and a lack of public integrity and good faith; already are licentiousness and debauchery corrupting, undermining and destroying society; already are we interfering with the laws of nature and stopping the functions of life, and have become the slayers of our own offspring, and employ human butchers in the shape of physicians to assist in this diabolical and murderous work. The sins of this nation, the licentiousness, the debauchery, the murders are entering into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and I tell you now, from the tops of these mountains, as a humble servant of the living God, that unless these cries and infamies are stopped, this nation will be overthrown and its glory, power, dominion and wealth will fade away like the dews of a summer morning. I also say to other nations of the earth, that unless they repent of their crimes, their iniquities and abominations, their thrones will be overturned, their kingdoms and governments overthrown, and their lands made desolate. This is not only my saying, but it is the saying of those ancient prophets which they themselves profess to believe; for God will speedily have a controversy with the nations of the earth, and, as I stated before, the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way to overthrow governments, to destroy dynasties, to lay waste thrones, kingdoms and empires, to spread abroad anarchy and desolation, and to cause war, famine and bloodshed to overspread the earth. (John Taylor, JD 23:62-63, 1882)

[jwharton]

We are coming to the point in the end time where it will not matter what each others ideas are, as they will be found before us.

How can this happen when it is our ideas that govern what we are able to perceive that is before us?
The Savior said if we weren't vigilant that His coming would be as if He were a thief in the night.
This doesn't mean He is deliberately operating out of stealth, but that the people would be in the dark.
Only those who have the "right ideas" (so to speak) will have the field of vision required to recognize Him.
I believe the scriptures are correct when they say "all shall see him" but that doesn't mean "all shall recognize him".

How can this happen? If a physical man comes forth and is called the Davidic Servant/King, verses a people as some think. It will be clearly one or the other, to those who watch.

As for the Messiah coming as a Thief in the night? 1st Thessalonians 5 answer this well.

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So He will not come as a Thief in the Night to those who watch for Him. The same is true for His servants that come as His forerunners. When Zion is established, a Temple is built in the New Jerusalem, the Ten Tribes return, and many other prophesied events happen, and there is a Prophet who comes and is called David... I think even those who do not believe will have to admit, this is the servant foretold.

Appreciate the clarification. Seems our disagreements can be chalked up to semantics.

[Unzesty]

I think no one knows who he (The Davidic King) is.
Isaiah 42 - 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isaiah 49 - 2 In the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft, in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isaiah 49 - 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, yet surely my judgment is with the Lord,
Isaiah 53 - 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
D&C 1 - 14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed;
D&C 90 - 10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations,

So he is someone who does not preach in the streets, and the Lord hides him from the world, and apparently he lives his mortal life in vain,
But he will be revealed,
Interesting though in The Testament of Levi; "and there shall none succeed him for all generations for ever"
He has many names;
Elias, One Mighty and Strong, The Davidic King, Arm of the Lord, Son of Man, The Bridegroom, Root of Jesse, Light of the Gentiles, The Servant, Rod, Staff, among many others,
I personally believe that he is not John The Beloved, because Elias appeared in front of John, and also Elias is NOT John the Baptist.
What is interesting is that Joseph Smith taught on a couple occasions that the Holy Ghost would come and take a body and go through similar trials the Savior did... could it be him? Of course that's just speculation.

[Alaris]

I think no one knows who he (The Davidic King) is.
Isaiah 42 - 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isaiah 49 - 2 In the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft, in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isaiah 49 - 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, yet surely my judgment is with the Lord,
Isaiah 53 - 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
D&C 1 - 14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed;
D&C 90 - 10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations,

So he is someone who does not preach in the streets, and the Lord hides him from the world, and apparently he lives his mortal life in vain,
But he will be revealed,
Interesting though in The Testament of Levi; "and there shall none succeed him for all generations for ever"
He has many names;
Elias, One Mighty and Strong, The Davidic King, Arm of the Lord, Son of Man, The Bridegroom, Root of Jesse, Light of the Gentiles, The Servant, Rod, Staff, among many others,
I personally believe that he is not John The Beloved, because Elias appeared in front of John, and also Elias is NOT John the Baptist.
What is interesting is that Joseph Smith taught on a couple occasions that the Holy Ghost would come and take a body and go through similar trials the Savior did... could it be him? Of course that's just speculation.

Thank you very much for this post. I did not consider the DS could be the Holy Ghost. I still lean on the belief that the Holy Ghost is not necessarily one man but many; however there would have to be a presiding Holy Ghost. I would assume that would be Michael and possibly the dispensation heads. I will pray and ponder on the possibility of the identity of the Holy Ghost being the DS. Thank you. O:-)

[David Cassani]

Is John the beloved the Davidic King?

John works on one side of the veil with David on the mortal side of the veil. That is a pattern we find in the endowment.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Is John the beloved the Davidic King?

John works on one side of the veil with David on the mortal side of the veil. That is a pattern we find in the endowment.

I agree to a point, as John being Translated is working with the Ten Tribes, and is also on this side of the veil so to speak. He can appear as more than a Just Man made perfect, having a body.

When one meets him, they will feel his spiritual presence if your sensitive to such things. His ears, nose and hands are oversized, and his skin is translucent, as in it looks thin and clear. His dress will not be anything that stands out, and if in a automobile, one might notice it is in perfect shape for a old classic tan 1954 or so Chev, Oldsmobile, or Ford.

[Alaris]

I think no one knows who he (The Davidic King) is.
Isaiah 42 - 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isaiah 49 - 2 In the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft, in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isaiah 49 - 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, yet surely my judgment is with the Lord,
Isaiah 53 - 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
D&C 1 - 14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed;
D&C 90 - 10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations,

So he is someone who does not preach in the streets, and the Lord hides him from the world, and apparently he lives his mortal life in vain,
But he will be revealed,
Interesting though in The Testament of Levi; "and there shall none succeed him for all generations for ever"
He has many names;
Elias, One Mighty and Strong, The Davidic King, Arm of the Lord, Son of Man, The Bridegroom, Root of Jesse, Light of the Gentiles, The Servant, Rod, Staff, among many others,
I personally believe that he is not John The Beloved, because Elias appeared in front of John, and also Elias is NOT John the Baptist.
What is interesting is that Joseph Smith taught on a couple occasions that the Holy Ghost would come and take a body and go through similar trials the Savior did... could it be him? Of course that's just speculation.

Thank you very much for this post. I did not consider the DS could be the Holy Ghost. I still lean on the belief that the Holy Ghost is not necessarily one man but many; however there would have to be a presiding Holy Ghost. I would assume that would be Michael and possibly the dispensation heads. I will pray and ponder on the possibility of the identity of the Holy Ghost being the DS. Thank you. O:-)

Wow I had forgotten about this! I had had a seed planted long before this interaction where I should have considered this more deeply, but at the time I just wasn't ready apparently.

[Alaris]

Is John the beloved the Davidic King?

John works on one side of the veil with David on the mortal side of the veil. That is a pattern we find in the endowment.

I agree to a point, as John being Translated is working with the Ten Tribes, and is also on this side of the veil so to speak. He can appear as more than a Just Man made perfect, having a body.

When one meets him, they will feel his spiritual presence if your sensitive to such things. His ears, nose and hands are oversized, and his skin is translucent, as in it looks thin and clear. His dress will not be anything that stands out, and if in a automobile, one might notice it is in perfect shape for a old classic tan 1954 or so Chev, Oldsmobile, or Ford.

Are we speaking from experience here? The year and color of his automobile and type is rather specific.

My tone here is genuine curiosity and not disdain or disbelief. Thanks for sharing!

[Durzan]

I'm pretty sure I've seen this thread before...

[Alaris]

I'm pretty sure I've seen this thread before...

Deja vu is common when dealing with a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma gazed upon through a tesseract.

[zionbuilder]

Is John the beloved the Davidic King?

John works on one side of the veil with David on the mortal side of the veil. That is a pattern we find in the endowment.

I agree to a point, as John being Translated is working with the Ten Tribes, and is also on this side of the veil so to speak. He can appear as more than a Just Man made perfect, having a body.

When one meets him, they will feel his spiritual presence if your sensitive to such things. His ears, nose and hands are oversized, and his skin is translucent, as in it looks thin and clear. His dress will not be anything that stands out, and if in a automobile, one might notice it is in perfect shape for a old classic tan 1954 or so Chev, Oldsmobile, or Ford.

Are we speaking from experience here? The year and color of his automobile and type is rather specific.

My tone here is genuine curiosity and not disdain or disbelief. Thanks for sharing!

Does it happen to be a convertible? And a possible light pink instead of tan?

[Kingdom of ZION]

Is John the beloved the Davidic King?

John works on one side of the veil with David on the mortal side of the veil. That is a pattern we find in the endowment.

I agree to a point, as John being Translated is working with the Ten Tribes, and is also on this side of the veil so to speak. He can appear as more than a Just Man made perfect, having a body.

When one meets him, they will feel his spiritual presence if your sensitive to such things. His ears, nose and hands are oversized, and his skin is translucent, as in it looks thin and clear. His dress will not be anything that stands out, and if in a automobile, one might notice it is in perfect shape for a old classic tan 1954 or so Chev, Oldsmobile, or Ford.

Are we speaking from experience here? The year and color of his automobile and type is rather specific.

My tone here is genuine curiosity and not disdain or disbelief. Thanks for sharing!

Does it happen to be a convertible? And a possible light pink instead of tan?

How many different cars have you driven over your short lifetime?

[zionbuilder]

I agree to a point, as John being Translated is working with the Ten Tribes, and is also on this side of the veil so to speak. He can appear as more than a Just Man made perfect, having a body.

When one meets him, they will feel his spiritual presence if your sensitive to such things. His ears, nose and hands are oversized, and his skin is translucent, as in it looks thin and clear. His dress will not be anything that stands out, and if in a automobile, one might notice it is in perfect shape for a old classic tan 1954 or so Chev, Oldsmobile, or Ford.

Are we speaking from experience here? The year and color of his automobile and type is rather specific.

My tone here is genuine curiosity and not disdain or disbelief. Thanks for sharing!

Does it happen to be a convertible? And a possible light pink instead of tan?

How many different cars have you driven over your short lifetime?

Enough, I suppose... And was that a height reference? You deflected
Does he wear a hat and have a cane? White hair?

[Kingdom of ZION]

Are we speaking from experience here? The year and color of his automobile and type is rather specific.

My tone here is genuine curiosity and not disdain or disbelief. Thanks for sharing!

Does it happen to be a convertible? And a possible light pink instead of tan?

How many different cars have you driven over your short lifetime?

Enough, I suppose... And was that a height reference? You deflected
Does he wear a hat and have a cane? White hair?

He can drive probably anything he wants, though I do not think it is necessary for him to travel. Props for us... On one of the two occasion I have seen him, I have seen him vanish when he noticed that I notice him. I have never seen any hat or cane, and his hair has white in it but it is by no means pure white.

Ogden Kraut wrote a book, "The Three Nephites". It relates stories of such appearances, very insightful.