Is John The Beloved the Davidic King?

[Kingdom of ZION]

The John spoken of in D&C 77 as the Elias is not the Davidic King.
I'm not even of the opinion it is John the Beloved either.
I believe it is referring to John the Baptist rather than John the Beloved.
John the Baptist was in the office and standing as the Elias/Elijah to precede the coming of Jesus as the King-Messiah.
Just as the John then was referred to as the Elias/Elijah, it isn't out of the question to anticipate an Elias/Elijah/John figure to come.
And, this Elias/Elijah/John servant doesn't come as the King-Messiah but rather as the person who has the authority to anoint the King-Messiah.
The Elias figure is the new Elijah/John figure who anoints the new Davidic King-Messiah figure.

I agree in most of what you say here. But I believe that Elijah was also John the Baptist, and when he comes in the end times, he will be the David foretold to come he is the Root, and the Davidic Servant. He will be a King of the Next dispensation and will at the end be called the Davidic King, but he is not the King of Kings. When he comes, His coronation will be at Adam-ondi-Ahman, and it will be by one far greater than he, the Davidic Servant/King. It will be by Michael.

Appreciate the input.
Are you implying John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah the Prophet?

I don't believe in reincarnation but I do believe in spiritual union with worthy candidates.
Is that perhaps more what you mean by what you said?

I believe in a doctrine called "Eternal Lives". It is also called the "Eight Estates of Probation and Progression". It is taught in allegory in the Temple Endowment.

"Are you implying John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah the Prophet?"
It was not I but the Messiah at said that.

How could have Malachi said Elijah would come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord? Why did the Jews go out to John the Baptist and ask him if he was Elijah, lest they had an understanding of a doctrine we do not possess? How is it that Melchizedek was the Messiah, Shem Son of Noah? I could go on, as there are many many examples, but I believe it is one of those mysteries of the kingdom, that has to be personally revealed.

[Hogmeister]

Question to the Forum:

What prophesied Servants do you see? One Mighty and Strong, Elijah, John the Beloved, Davidic Servant/King, One like unto Moses, the Root and the Branch Prophet, the Marred Servant, the Two Witnesses, to name the majority of them for you.[/color]

It is my belief that the Lord is using personification (a term for symbolism) in identifying the Davidic servant. An example of this is in Rev 12 where he identify's the woman clothed with sun moon and stars. The woman is the primitive church. She gives birth to the manchild who is taken before she goes into the wilderness. The child represents the "Zion" organization which was to develop out of the primitive church. The Davidic individual is a branch, a witness, a ruler, the arm, and strength, and the servant of Christ. All these roles are assumed by the church and this priesthood body will fulfill it's destiny with the establishment of Zion in the Millennium. The kingdom of God on earth is the body of Christ, it is the Davidic servant. In Isa 11:1 the church or the kingdom of God on earth is the "little child" which will lead in the millennium when there is peace among all peoples (represented by the various beasts). Remember to enter the kingdom one must become as a "little child", meek, submissive.
DC113 speaking of the servant says,"6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days." The church has a right to the priesthood and keys, it is the ensign, and is gathering. It is the servant in the "hands of Christ".
The Church was the servant of 3 Ne 20,21 who was marred and healed. It occurred with the death of JS and the exodus to the Utah. Joseph in Egypt is a type of the church. He too was marred and left for dead before he was exiled to a strange land. Joseph went on to bear the burdens and eventually become a ruler and servant who gathered his brothers and father to a promised land.
I personally doubt there will be a resurrected or translated John, Elias, or Baptist who will usurp the authority of the restored church. God has established the church to gather the millenial kingdom, a kingdom which will be everlasting because it is guided by and obeys the laws of God.

Carlos, I'm with you on this. I have had several email conversations with Avraham Gileadi himself on this interpretation. He's not on board yet even though he indeed teaches the principle of using the one to symbolize the many. The Lord's end time servant (priesthood) is on earth as we speak. Study the spirit of Elias, the spirit of Elijah and the spirit of Messiah (great sermons by Joseph Smith on this http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/10Mar44.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I believe that the restored Church/priesthood/servant is and will be "guided and authorized" by each of these in the end times which we are in. The restored Church/priesthood/servant will take on the "role" of Elias, Elijah and Messiah in the end times.

I’ve pondered about the 2 decendants (the rod and the root) mentioned in Isaiah 11. I believe one is a servant (with much power) the other may start out as a servant but will end up a son (after proving himself/being sanctified) on a higher level to which rightly belongs the priesthood.

Study Avrahams commentary on Isaiah 11 to better understand the allegory of the stem, rod and root (the grafting process of an olive tree).

We have the following interpretation from the Lord in D&C 113:1-6

D&C 113:1-6
1 Who is the Stem (stock, trunk) of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?

2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.

3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?

4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power. (I believe this is end-time Egypt or USA or gentile nations (in the leadership there is much blood from Ephraim and Judah) with power to keep the trunk, stock, stem (Christianity) alive until the time of graft).

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom (to rule with priesthood authority), for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days (the branch that will bear fruit). I believe this is the sanctified (the fish has not been sorted yet) LDS church which is Isaiah’s righteous end-time servant

[simpleton]

I think this directly applies to our day.....


1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7 ¶Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 ¶For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God

[simpleton]

Ezekiel 34

[Hogmeister]

I think this directly applies to our day.....


1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7 ¶Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 ¶For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God

True but it is referring to the corrupt politicians/leaders and priest craft of the nations. Huge difference between them and the end time servant (restored priesthood).

[Lizzy60]

That's an interesting wresting of scripture, to say that "shepherds of Israel" refers to politicians/leaders and priestcraft of the nations. Why do you think the Lord had Ezekiel specify that these were shepherds of ISRAEL?

[Hogmeister]

That's an interesting wresting of scripture, to say that "shepherds of Israel" refers to politicians/leaders and priestcraft of the nations. Why do you think the Lord had Ezekiel specify that these were shepherds of ISRAEL?

You should study Avrahams works to be able to more accurately identify latter day Israel.

Here is a tidbit.

4. Isaiah’s Characterization of People Reveals Seven Spiritual Levels

Would it surprise you to know that people who appear in Isaiah’s writings aren’t simply incidental to the story? Although Isaiah portrays real people who lived in his day, these also typify people who perform similar, end-time roles. In addition, they exemplify different spiritual categories. We observe, for example, that at times Isaiah uses the paired names “Jacob” and “Israel” to refer to God’s covenant people, while at other times he uses the paired names “Zion” and “Jerusalem.” What is the difference? Look closer and you will discover that the names Jacob and Israel depict a materialistic category of God’s people. Their idolatry makes them spiritually blind. They need waking up or they won’t survive God’s Day of Judgment that is coming upon the world.

In fact, people in the Jacob/Israel category are liable to descend even lower—to Babylon, a category of oppressors and evildoers. Others ascend to Zion/Jerusalem, a category of people who repent of evil, who prove faithful when God tests their loyalties. As they do so, God forgives their sins and acknowledges them as his covenant people. Isaiah further tells what happens in the end when the world polarizes into two camps. In God’s Day of Judgment, all who belong to the Babylon category perish from the earth. God delivers only Zion/Jerusalem and levels higher. Caught in between, the Jacob/Israel category disappears as all middle ground vanishes. People on that level face the choice of either ascending to Zion/Jerusalem or descending to Babylon.

Categories higher than Zion/Jerusalem include God’s “servants” and “sons.” By serving God in individual covenant relationships, some in the Zion/Jerusalem category ascend to the next spiritual level. An entire category of servants and sons, for example, emerges as a result of the mission of God’s end-time servant who prepares the way for Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth. As a temporal savior, the servant delivers them in a new exodus from among all nations to Zion—just as Moses delivered Israel out of Egypt to the Promised Land. God’s servants and sons ascend from having a conditional covenant relationship with Israel’s God, their emperor. As they prove loyal under all conditions, their covenants turn unconditional and they become his elect.

Still, things don’t end there. Above sons/servants are seraphs/saviors, who act as angelic emissaries. And above them is Jehovah, the God of Israel and King of Zion. Isaiah depicts each ascent on this spiritual ladder as a rebirth or re-creation of the person who ascends. Each ascent involves the candidate’s receiving a new name and an appointment to a higher spiritual ministry. With each ascent, a candidate keeps a higher law relating to a higher covenant. Each ascent, moreover, involves a temporary descent. That occurs when God tests the loyalties of the candidate through a series of trials of increasing intensity. Such trials often come at the hands of descending categories of people. The lowest equates with Perdition, people who devise and orchestrate evil.

[shadow]

If one thinks the "shepherds of Israel" refer to the leaders of the LDS church then that prophecy certainly hasn't come to pass. Political leaders from near and far tour the LDS welfare system as an example of an effective way to feed the hungry. The church welfare system is HUGE.
The Prophet and Apostles not only direct that the poor be fed and sheltered physically, they also protect the flock from the wolves of the world, at least protect those that hear. By paying attention and listening to the 15, you can be spiritually protected and not be scattered about by false doctrine, like what we see often on this site.

[iWriteStuff]

That's an interesting wresting of scripture, to say that "shepherds of Israel" refers to politicians/leaders and priestcraft of the nations. Why do you think the Lord had Ezekiel specify that these were shepherds of ISRAEL?

You should study Avrahams works to be able to more accurately identify latter day Israel.

Here is a tidbit.

4. Isaiah’s Characterization of People Reveals Seven Spiritual Levels

Would it surprise you to know that people who appear in Isaiah’s writings aren’t simply incidental to the story? Although Isaiah portrays real people who lived in his day, these also typify people who perform similar, end-time roles. In addition, they exemplify different spiritual categories. We observe, for example, that at times Isaiah uses the paired names “Jacob” and “Israel” to refer to God’s covenant people, while at other times he uses the paired names “Zion” and “Jerusalem.” What is the difference? Look closer and you will discover that the names Jacob and Israel depict a materialistic category of God’s people. Their idolatry makes them spiritually blind. They need waking up or they won’t survive God’s Day of Judgment that is coming upon the world.

In fact, people in the Jacob/Israel category are liable to descend even lower—to Babylon, a category of oppressors and evildoers. Others ascend to Zion/Jerusalem, a category of people who repent of evil, who prove faithful when God tests their loyalties. As they do so, God forgives their sins and acknowledges them as his covenant people. Isaiah further tells what happens in the end when the world polarizes into two camps. In God’s Day of Judgment, all who belong to the Babylon category perish from the earth. God delivers only Zion/Jerusalem and levels higher. Caught in between, the Jacob/Israel category disappears as all middle ground vanishes. People on that level face the choice of either ascending to Zion/Jerusalem or descending to Babylon.

Categories higher than Zion/Jerusalem include God’s “servants” and “sons.” By serving God in individual covenant relationships, some in the Zion/Jerusalem category ascend to the next spiritual level. An entire category of servants and sons, for example, emerges as a result of the mission of God’s end-time servant who prepares the way for Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth. As a temporal savior, the servant delivers them in a new exodus from among all nations to Zion—just as Moses delivered Israel out of Egypt to the Promised Land. God’s servants and sons ascend from having a conditional covenant relationship with Israel’s God, their emperor. As they prove loyal under all conditions, their covenants turn unconditional and they become his elect.

Still, things don’t end there. Above sons/servants are seraphs/saviors, who act as angelic emissaries. And above them is Jehovah, the God of Israel and King of Zion. Isaiah depicts each ascent on this spiritual ladder as a rebirth or re-creation of the person who ascends. Each ascent involves the candidate’s receiving a new name and an appointment to a higher spiritual ministry. With each ascent, a candidate keeps a higher law relating to a higher covenant. Each ascent, moreover, involves a temporary descent. That occurs when God tests the loyalties of the candidate through a series of trials of increasing intensity. Such trials often come at the hands of descending categories of people. The lowest equates with Perdition, people who devise and orchestrate evil.

Good stuff. Reference? Me want read.

[Lizzy60]

^^^^^^ I would start with Isaiah Decoded, and also listen to his audio commentary -- a verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah found on his website, Isaiah Explained (iirc).

I've read most of his books, and listened to the entire commentary numerous times. He is more correct than most LDS commentators on Isaiah. My favorites of his books are Isaiah Decoded and The Last Days.

Fwiw, I started listening to Avraham's commentary in 2005, on borrowed cassette tapes. Then I upgraded to his MP3 edition downloaded to my iPod. It's a huge blessing that it's now available on the internet.

[iWriteStuff]

^^^^^^ I would start with Isaiah Decoded, and also listen to his audio commentary -- a verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah found on his website, Isaiah Explained (iirc).

I've read most of his books, and listened to the entire commentary numerous times. He is more correct than most LDS commentators on Isaiah. My favorites of his books are Isaiah Decoded and The Last Days.

Fwiw, I started listening to Avraham's commentary in 2005, on borrowed cassette tapes. Then I upgraded to his MP3 edition downloaded to my iPod. It's a huge blessing that it's now available on the internet.

I've listened to the commentary before... or at least large portions of it. I think what was missing for me was the actual transcript of his commentary. When I study such material, I often take careful notes and transcribe things that stick out to me. That's what I've done with a lot of the Hugh Nibley stuff I've read, coupled with some of his audio lectures. Because I can usually find a transcript, I include that in my notes and then add the thoughts and impressions I received while listening/reading. Helps it stick better, plus I can go back and find it a lot easier later.

Sounds like I'll need to pick up a book or two. Which one should I read first?

[Lizzy60]

^^^^^^ I would start with Isaiah Decoded, and also listen to his audio commentary -- a verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah found on his website, Isaiah Explained (iirc).

I've read most of his books, and listened to the entire commentary numerous times. He is more correct than most LDS commentators on Isaiah. My favorites of his books are Isaiah Decoded and The Last Days.

Fwiw, I started listening to Avraham's commentary in 2005, on borrowed cassette tapes. Then I upgraded to his MP3 edition downloaded to my iPod. It's a huge blessing that it's now available on the internet.

I've listened to the commentary before... or at least large portions of it. I think what was missing for me was the actual transcript of his commentary. When I study such material, I often take careful notes and transcribe things that stick out to me. That's what I've done with a lot of the Hugh Nibley stuff I've read, coupled with some of his audio lectures. Because I can usually find a transcript, I include that in my notes and then add the thoughts and impressions I received while listening/reading. Helps it stick better, plus I can go back and find it a lot easier later.

Sounds like I'll need to pick up a book or two. Which one should I read first?

I transcribed chapters myself, that I wanted to study more in-depth. I believe his commentary is also transcribed on his website.

I would start with Isaiah Decoded.

[jwharton]

If one thinks the "shepherds of Israel" refer to the leaders of the LDS church then that prophecy certainly hasn't come to pass. Political leaders from near and far tour the LDS welfare system as an example of an effective way to feed the hungry. The church welfare system is HUGE.
The Prophet and Apostles not only direct that the poor be fed and sheltered physically, they also protect the flock from the wolves of the world, at least protect those that hear. By paying attention and listening to the 15, you can be spiritually protected and not be scattered about by false doctrine, like what we see often on this site.

If you look at the Celestial Laws, with regard to how the Lord wants United Orders to function, compared to the Telestial Laws we now use, a different point of view can be seen.

For example, my sister was turned down by the bishop for help she needed and was told to go and get government welfare first. He said he wasn't going to help her unless she also paid a full 10% of her income as tithing but she couldn't afford to. She didn't have enough to get by as it was. She felt demeaned and oppressed and given over to the beast. She eventually ended up becoming an escort girl to try and make ends meet and was found murdered in a hotel room.

[Lizzy60]

I personally know people who have been turned down by their bishops because they would not apply for government assistance. In one case, when the bishop knew they were not receiving help from the church or government, but were still getting by, he asked where the aid was coming from. When told that friends were helping, he said, I haven't seen you pay any tithing on that. Hand over the tithing or your recommends.

[EmmaLee]

You guys should move out here. Our Bishop gives help/aid to anyone who asks for it - even non-members who live in our ward boundaries.

[iWriteStuff]

^^^^^^ I would start with Isaiah Decoded, and also listen to his audio commentary -- a verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah found on his website, Isaiah Explained (iirc).

I've read most of his books, and listened to the entire commentary numerous times. He is more correct than most LDS commentators on Isaiah. My favorites of his books are Isaiah Decoded and The Last Days.

Fwiw, I started listening to Avraham's commentary in 2005, on borrowed cassette tapes. Then I upgraded to his MP3 edition downloaded to my iPod. It's a huge blessing that it's now available on the internet.

I've listened to the commentary before... or at least large portions of it. I think what was missing for me was the actual transcript of his commentary. When I study such material, I often take careful notes and transcribe things that stick out to me. That's what I've done with a lot of the Hugh Nibley stuff I've read, coupled with some of his audio lectures. Because I can usually find a transcript, I include that in my notes and then add the thoughts and impressions I received while listening/reading. Helps it stick better, plus I can go back and find it a lot easier later.

Sounds like I'll need to pick up a book or two. Which one should I read first?

I transcribed chapters myself, that I wanted to study more in-depth. I believe his commentary is also transcribed on his website.

I would start with Isaiah Decoded.

How's this for irony - I just found out Avraham lives in Sequim, WA. I grew up there and my extended family still lives up there. Heck, I attended one of their two wards.... Might have even sat next to the guy and not known it. Doh! :((

[shadow]

I personally know people who have been turned down by their bishops because they would not apply for government assistance. In one case, when the bishop knew they were not receiving help from the church or government, but were still getting by, he asked where the aid was coming from. When told that friends were helping, he said, I haven't seen you pay any tithing on that. Hand over the tithing or your recommends.

I personally don't know anyone who's been turned down by the church, and I personally know many who have been helped by the church.
Lame bishops, like the one you mentioned, are not following the counsel of prophets and apostles. Judging the church as a whole by a few lame brains is a mistake that should be repented of.

[jwharton]

I personally know people who have been turned down by their bishops because they would not apply for government assistance. In one case, when the bishop knew they were not receiving help from the church or government, but were still getting by, he asked where the aid was coming from. When told that friends were helping, he said, I haven't seen you pay any tithing on that. Hand over the tithing or your recommends.

I personally don't know anyone who's been turned down by the church, and I personally know many who have been helped by the church.
Lame bishops, like the one you mentioned, are not following the counsel of prophets and apostles. Judging the church as a whole by a few lame brains is a mistake that should be repented of.

Under the United Order system the church had to run a tight operation and had only sufficient for their needs. However, there was a common fund that enabled the consecrated wealth of the saints to be made use of without usury for the benefit of the members and the church. It alleviated the need for the people and the church to have external debts to Babylon, which has usury. Unfortunately, the people were slothful and reluctant to turn in their surplus and so the system didn't work properly for the people or the church.

Under the current system of tithing on gross income instead of on net increase (surplus), the church has huge amounts of cash way beyond what is merely sufficient for its needs and it doesn't have to manage a common fund with fiduciary responsibilities but can dispose of tithes in any manner it pleases. This was a very drastic alteration to the basis upon which tithes are collected. And, this change was never explicitly carried out as such, it has just been nurtured and fostered along as such. This is why there are still bishops to this day that will allow someone to declare themselves a full tithed payer even though they didn't pay any tithing at all, because they had no surplus. They will generally say it is between them and the Lord, which has been the official policy unless it has finally been officially decreed to be 10% of your gross income with no other methodology allowed.

Under the Father's system tithing was never meant to be something that added to a person's indebtedness and it certainly shouldn't ever be something that cuts into their sustenance. But, our departure from the Celestial Economic system of the Father's Kingdom has massively shifted things such that the church is extremely wealthy and the saints are not liberated from Babylon but are in fact significantly depressed in their individual economic conditions. But, lesser laws are always more unjust and oppressive so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

The important thing to remain clear on is in holy writ the Father speaks from His point of view and so we have to keep our eye single to His glory and seek first His kingdom and then we will be better able to see things from His point of view.

[shadow]

I personally know people who have been turned down by their bishops because they would not apply for government assistance. In one case, when the bishop knew they were not receiving help from the church or government, but were still getting by, he asked where the aid was coming from. When told that friends were helping, he said, I haven't seen you pay any tithing on that. Hand over the tithing or your recommends.

I personally don't know anyone who's been turned down by the church, and I personally know many who have been helped by the church.
Lame bishops, like the one you mentioned, are not following the counsel of prophets and apostles. Judging the church as a whole by a few lame brains is a mistake that should be repented of.

Under the United Order system the church had to run a tight operation and had only sufficient for their needs. However, there was a common fund that enabled the consecrated wealth of the saints to be made use of without usury for the benefit of the members and the church. It alleviated the need for the people and the church to have external debts to Babylon, which has usury. Unfortunately, the people were slothful and reluctant to turn in their surplus and so the system didn't work properly for the people or the church.

Under the current system of tithing on gross income instead of on net increase (surplus), the church has huge amounts of cash way beyond what is merely sufficient for its needs and it doesn't have to manage a common fund with fiduciary responsibilities but can dispose of tithes in any manner it pleases. This was a very drastic alteration to the basis upon which tithes are collected. And, this change was never explicitly carried out as such, it has just been nurtured and fostered along as such. This is why there are still bishops to this day that will allow someone to declare themselves a full tithed payer even though they didn't pay any tithing at all, because they had no surplus. They will generally say it is between them and the Lord, which has been the official policy unless it has finally been officially decreed to be 10% of your gross income with no other methodology allowed.

Under the Father's system tithing was never meant to be something that added to a person's indebtedness and it certainly shouldn't ever be something that cuts into their sustenance. But, our departure from the Celestial Economic system of the Father's Kingdom has massively shifted things such that the church is extremely wealthy and the saints are not liberated from Babylon but are in fact significantly depressed in their individual economic conditions. But, lesser laws are always more unjust and oppressive so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

The important thing to remain clear on is in holy writ the Father speaks from His point of view and so we have to keep our eye single to His glory and seek first His kingdom and then we will be better able to see things from His point of view.

That's certainly your point of view and interpretation, which things vary from person to person.

[jwharton]

Ezekiel 34

People won't see the relevance of this to us unless they view things from the Father's Celestial point of view.

We indeed need to be delivered from the bondage of Babylon and the Telestial system we now use.

[jwharton]

That's certainly your point of view and interpretation, which things vary from person to person.

There's much good in how things are being done now to defend as well, but do you think it is necessary to defend them against the Celestial as well?
You almost sound as if you prefer things remain just as they are and that we never get back to the higher Celestial economic system of the Father.

[shadow]

That's certainly your point of view and interpretation, which things vary from person to person.

There's much good in how things are being done now to defend as well, but do you think it is necessary to defend them against the Celestial as well?
You almost sound as if you prefer things remain just as they are and that we never get back to the higher Celestial economic system of the Father.

Nope, I prefer better things. But the church can't force anyone to be better but they certainly teach people Christ's doctrine to be better. It's obeying those teachings that are neglected by far too many. If you think the application of tithing is the key to the celestial kingdom, you'd be thinking incorrectly. Tithing isn't even a celestial law, the law of consecration is. And look at all who fight tithing by claiming it's too much.

[jwharton]

If you think the application of tithing is the key to the celestial kingdom, you'd be thinking incorrectly.
Tithing isn't even a celestial law, the law of consecration is.
And look at all who fight tithing by claiming it's too much.

I hope you will please hear me out fully and sincerely.
I hope you please independently research this out.

You cannot separate the Law of Consecration and tithing.
The Law of Consecration fully implemented still includes tithing.
Is all separating them does is corrupt and pervert tithing's true purpose.
Please consider the possibility that you have a faulty understanding of United Orders.

When someone joins a United Order they are tithed on their current net worth.
They retain possession of whatever is going to continue to be their stewardship.
They surrender their remaining surplus that goes into the common fund.
Whatever someone consecrates after it is tithed is credited as their inheritance.
Each succeeding year if they have increase, only that increase is tithed and consecrated.
Then, whatever is surplus goes into the common fund and increases their inheritance.

So, the bishop of a United Order has both a tithing account and the common fund to administer.
The bishop is able to use tithes to his discretion to cover expenses for the church and so on.
Where the common fund is concerned those funds represent the inheritances of the saints.
So, the bishop is not in a position to consume those funds, but he administers use of those funds.
The purpose of the common fund, as I said earlier, is to alleviate the need for any external debts to Babylon.
The whole purpose and design of the United Order system was so that all the saints would have economic sovereignty.
It was to put us in a position to entirely avert the coming calamity, which will be a global financial calamity.

Scriptural references to "tithes" is a reference to it in the context of the Father's economic system. The same system Melchizedek of old administered when he established his translated society. The same system Enoch used and of course the same system Adam implemented once he was redeemed.

Please read Malachi chapter 3 and section 85 of the Doctrine and Covenants and look for the connections between them.

7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

D&C 85
1 IT is the duty of the Lord's clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.
3 It is contrary to the will and commandment of God that those who receive not their inheritance by consecration, agreeable to his law, which he has given, that he may tithe his people, to prepare them against the day of vengeance and burning, should have their names enrolled with the people of God.
4 Neither is their genealogy to be kept, or to be had where it may be found on any of the records or history of the church.
5 Their names shall not be found, neither the names of the fathers, nor the names of the children written in the book of the law of God, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.
9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.
10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.
11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;
12 Therefore, it shall be done unto them as unto the children of the priest, as will be found recorded in the second chapter and sixty-first and second verses of Ezra.

These key phrases tell us the exact solution that we need right now:

ye are gone away from mine ordinances...
ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...
Return unto me, and I will return unto you...
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes...

This chapter tells us that we are currently out of order and that the whole nation has been robbed.
The Father is telling us to return to the celestial laws we have gone away from.
To do this there must be a correction to return to the celestial way of doing things.
There is no storehouse but there are huge amounts of tithes in the church accounts.
So, each member will calculate their true tithe based upon their net worth.
Any tithes they have paid above that are reallocated into the common fund on their behalf.
Thus, the over-payment of tithes will be transferred into the common fund, which is the storehouse.
This is why it says bring all the (out of order) tithes into the storehouse so that they can do what God intends.
And, the intention of the common fund is to eliminate everyone's need to get capital from Babylon.

If we as a body of saints are able to completely withdraw from the Babylon economic system, we will avoid being spoiled when everything crashes down.
There needs to be a common fund where the rich are made low (but not stolen from) and the less fortunate can be liberated from financial bondage.

[Carlos]

4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power. (I believe this is end-time Egypt or USA or gentile nations (in the leadership there is much blood from Ephraim and Judah) with power to keep the trunk, stock, stem (Christianity) alive until the time of graft).

Interesting. I've also considered the USA to be a servant mentioned in scripture. Specifically in 1 NE 21:5
5 And now, saith the Lord—that formed me from the womb that I should be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him—though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

The quoted Isaiah chapter continues to tell the virtues of this servant which appear to be the work of a land and nation. This is confirmed in 2 NE 22 when Nephi explains Isaiah to his brothers that the Lord will raise up a great nation to care for Israel.

I see the US to be the 'Jerusalem' of the last days prophecy. A seat of governance and home for the house of Israel, Judah and Ephraim, the two nations of Israel. From the USA, the gospel is taken to the world by Judah and Ephraim. As Ezekiel 37 explains, Judah and Joseph are 2 nations who rely on their own writings (sticks). The stick of Joseph and of Judah. These two nations are separate, yet have one King. Each comes to Christ through the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Joseph (Ephraim) and Judah of the last days are the restored church and traditional Christianity. These two (Joseph/Judah) are reserved by the lord to raise up the house of Israel as described by the dry bones in Ezk 37 and also in this Isaiah passage (2NE 8).

17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury—thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling wrung out—
18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
19 These two sons [Judah and Ephraim] are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee—thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword—and by whom shall I comfort thee?
20 Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.

Prior to Christ, these two nations were defined by blood lines. Today, they are defined by spiritual faith. In the past, Judah had the prophets, temple, and the priesthood. Today, Ephraim has the prophets, temple, and the priesthood. In the past they were at odds with each other. Today, Isaiah says that Judah will vex Ephraim and Ephraim will envy Judah. This animosity will cease after their unification in Zion as prophesied in Isaiah.
These two, the restored church and traditional Christianity, were nurtured by the servant of 1 NE 21, the USA. They are the witnesses to the world mentioned in Rev 11 embedded in the USA. Thus they have great powers to make war against anyone who harms them or to open or close the heavens with our economic power. Thus when the USA is "killed" by the beast of the bottomless pit, the nations of the earth will rejoice and send gifts to one another. This will be the prophesied cleansing of America. The pivotal event which seems to be missing from the Book of Revelations.
But of course, after this cleansing, these refined witnesses will rise up in unison unto the Lord, Zion will be established and the nations will fear. Read Rev 11, the witness chapter with this insight. It might make more sense.

[Hogmeister]

That's an interesting wresting of scripture, to say that "shepherds of Israel" refers to politicians/leaders and priestcraft of the nations. Why do you think the Lord had Ezekiel specify that these were shepherds of ISRAEL?

You should study Avrahams works to be able to more accurately identify latter day Israel.

Here is a tidbit.

4. Isaiah’s Characterization of People Reveals Seven Spiritual Levels

Would it surprise you to know that people who appear in Isaiah’s writings aren’t simply incidental to the story? Although Isaiah portrays real people who lived in his day, these also typify people who perform similar, end-time roles. In addition, they exemplify different spiritual categories. We observe, for example, that at times Isaiah uses the paired names “Jacob” and “Israel” to refer to God’s covenant people, while at other times he uses the paired names “Zion” and “Jerusalem.” What is the difference? Look closer and you will discover that the names Jacob and Israel depict a materialistic category of God’s people. Their idolatry makes them spiritually blind. They need waking up or they won’t survive God’s Day of Judgment that is coming upon the world.

In fact, people in the Jacob/Israel category are liable to descend even lower—to Babylon, a category of oppressors and evildoers. Others ascend to Zion/Jerusalem, a category of people who repent of evil, who prove faithful when God tests their loyalties. As they do so, God forgives their sins and acknowledges them as his covenant people. Isaiah further tells what happens in the end when the world polarizes into two camps. In God’s Day of Judgment, all who belong to the Babylon category perish from the earth. God delivers only Zion/Jerusalem and levels higher. Caught in between, the Jacob/Israel category disappears as all middle ground vanishes. People on that level face the choice of either ascending to Zion/Jerusalem or descending to Babylon.

Categories higher than Zion/Jerusalem include God’s “servants” and “sons.” By serving God in individual covenant relationships, some in the Zion/Jerusalem category ascend to the next spiritual level. An entire category of servants and sons, for example, emerges as a result of the mission of God’s end-time servant who prepares the way for Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth. As a temporal savior, the servant delivers them in a new exodus from among all nations to Zion—just as Moses delivered Israel out of Egypt to the Promised Land. God’s servants and sons ascend from having a conditional covenant relationship with Israel’s God, their emperor. As they prove loyal under all conditions, their covenants turn unconditional and they become his elect.

Still, things don’t end there. Above sons/servants are seraphs/saviors, who act as angelic emissaries. And above them is Jehovah, the God of Israel and King of Zion. Isaiah depicts each ascent on this spiritual ladder as a rebirth or re-creation of the person who ascends. Each ascent involves the candidate’s receiving a new name and an appointment to a higher spiritual ministry. With each ascent, a candidate keeps a higher law relating to a higher covenant. Each ascent, moreover, involves a temporary descent. That occurs when God tests the loyalties of the candidate through a series of trials of increasing intensity. Such trials often come at the hands of descending categories of people. The lowest equates with Perdition, people who devise and orchestrate evil.

Good stuff. Reference? Me want read.

This:
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/resource ... -of-isaiah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this:
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/resource ... f-humanity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;