A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

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AI2.0
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A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

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This 'vision' was being discussed on another thread and I felt it should have it's own.

There is a vision of the last days that I've seen mentioned and referred to often and these days it is always attributed to John Taylor, but that was not always the case; For those who have not read it, here it is:
I went to bed at my usual hour half past nine o’clock. I had been reading the revelations in the French Language. My mind was calm, more so than usual if possible to be so. I composed myself for sleep but could not sleep. I felt a strange stupor come over me and apparently became partially unconscious, still I was not asleep, nor awake with a strange far away dreamy feeling.

The first thing I recognized was that I was in the Tabernacle at Ogden sitting on the back seat in the comer for fear they would call upon me to preach, which, after singing the second time, they did by calling me to the stand. I arose to speak and said I did not know that I had anything special to say except to bear my testimony to the truth of the latter-day work. When all at once it seemed as though I was lifted out of myself, and I said “Yes I have something to say, it is this: some of my brethren present have been asking me what is coming to pass, what is the wind blowing up. I will answer you right here what is coming to pass shortly.”

I was immediately in Salt Lake City wandering about the streets in all parts of the city, and on the door of every house I found a badge of mourning, and I could not find a house but what was in mourning. I passed by my own house and saw the same signs there and asked, “Is that me that is dead?” Something gave me an answer “No you’ll live through it all.”

It seemed strange to me that I saw no person on the street in my wandering about through the city. They seemed to be in their houses with their sick and dead. I saw no funeral procession, or anything of that kind, but the city looked very still and quiet as though the people were praying, and had control of the disease whatever it was. I then looked in all directions over the territory, east, west, north and south and I found the same mourning in every place throughout the land.

The next I knew I was just this side of Omaha. It seemed as though I was above the earth, looking down on it as I passed along on my way east. I saw the roads full of people, principally women, with just what they could carry in bundles on their backs, traveling to the mountains on foot, and I wondered how they could get there with nothing but a small pack upon their backs. It was remarkable to me that there were so few men among them. It did not seem as though the cars were running. The rails looked rusty and the road abandoned and I have no conception how I traveled myself.

As I looked down upon the people I continued eastward through Omaha and Council Bluffs which were full of disease and women everywhere. The states of Missouri and Illinois were in turmoil and strife, men killing each other, and women joining in the fight, family against family, cutting each other to pieces in the most horrid manner.

The next I saw was Washington and I found the city a desolation. The White House empty, the halls of Congress the same, everything in ruins, the people seemed to have fled from the city and left it to take care of itself.

I was next in the city of Baltimore and in the square where the monument of 1812 stands in front of St. Charles. And at the hotels I saw the dead piled up so as to fill the square. I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children for the sake of their blood, which they drank from their veins to quench their thirst and then lie down and die. The waters of the Chesapeake River and of the city were so stagnant and such a stench arose from them on account of the putrification of dead bodies that the very smell caused death. And that was singular again; I saw no men except they were dead, lying in the streets, and very few women, and they were crazy mad, and in a dying condition. Everywhere I went I beheld the same all over the city, and it was horrible beyond description to look at.

I thought this must be the end. But no, I was seemingly in Philadelphia and there as in Baltimore everything was still. No living soul was to be seen to greet me, and it seemed as though the whole city was without an inhabitant. In Arch and Chestnut Street and in fact everywhere I went the putrification of the dead bodies caused such a stench that it was impossible for any creature to exist alive, nor did I see any living thing in the city.

I next found myself in Broadway, New York, and there it seemed the people had done their best to overcome the disease. But in wandering down Broadway I saw the bodies of beautiful women lying stone dead, and others in a dying condition on the sidewalk. I saw men crawl out of the cellars and rob the dead bodies of the valuables they had on them, and before they could return to their coverts in the cellars, they themselves would roll over a time or two and die in agony. On some of the back streets I saw mothers kill their own children and eat raw flesh and then in a few minutes die themselves. Wherever I went I saw the same scenes of horror and desolation, rapine and death. No horses or carriages. No buses or streetcars, but death and destruction everywhere.

I then went to the Grand Central Park and, looking back, I saw a fire start and just at that moment a mighty east wind sprang up and carried the flames west over the city, and it burned until there was not a single building left standing whole, even down to the wharves. And the shipping all seemed to be burned, and swallowed up in the common destruction and left nothing but a desolation where the great city was a short time before. The stench from the bodies that were burning was so great that it was carried a great distance across the Hudson River and Bay, and thus spread disease and death wherever the flames penetrated. I cannot paint in words the horror that seemed to encompass me around about. It was beyond description or thought of man to conceive. I supposed this was the end, but I was here given to understand that the same horror was being enacted all over the country, north, south, east and west, that few were left alive, still there were some.

Immediately after, I seemed to be standing on the west bank of the Missouri River opposite the City of Independence,but I saw no city. I saw the whole states of Missouri and Illinois and part of Iowa were a complete wilderness with no living human being in them. I then saw a short distance from the river twelve men dressed in the robes of the temple standing in a square or nearly so. I understood it represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem and they were with hands uplifted consecrating the ground and laying the cornerstones. I saw myriads of angels hovering over them and around about them and also an immense pillar of a cloud hover over them. And I heard the angels singing the most beautiful music. The words were “Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever, and the Kingdom shall never be thrown down, for the Saints have overcome.”

And I saw people coming from the river and from different places a long way off to help build the Temple, and it seemed that the hosts of the angels all helped to get the material to build the Temple. And I saw some come who wore their temple robes to help build the Temple and the city and all the time I saw the great pillar of cloud hovering over the place.

Instantly I found I was in the Tabernacle at Ogden and yet I could see the building going on and I got quite animated in calling to the people in the Tabernacle to listen to the beautiful music that the angels were singing. I called to them to look at the angels as the house seemed to be full of them and they were singing the same words that I heard before “Now is the Kingdom of our God and His Christ established forever and ever.” And then a voice said, “Now shall come to pass that which was spoken by Isaiah the Prophet, That seven women shall take hold of one man saying, &c.”

At this time I seemed to stagger back from the pulpit and F.D. Richards and someone else caught me and prevented me from falling when I requested Brother Richards to apologize to the audience for me because I stopped so abruptly, and tell them I had not fainted but was exhausted. I rolled over in my bed and heard the City Hall clock strike twelve o’clock.
The problem is, there is no evidence to tie it to John Taylor.

This link explains it:
http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/10/2 ... and-again/

In a nutshell, this 'vision' was shared among members of the church in the late 1870's, but it was anonymous. Initially people tried to tie it to Joseph F. Smith, but he denied it, an excerpt from his statement in the newspaper in 1880:
...."A copy of this document was to-day handed to me by a friend. Having read it, I deem it my duty to announce through the NEWS, that so far as this pretended vision has been connected with my name it is a fraud. I never had such a vision and am wholly ignorant of its author, and my name has been used in connection with it entirely without my knowledge."....
He also pointed out that he doesn't know more than 3 words of french. Still it didn't die. It continued to surface over the years and additional statements were made:

An excerpt from Pres. Smith's General Conf. address in 1918:
I suppose, a hundred times, when I have been inquired of about it. It was gotten up by some mysterious person who undertook to create a sensation and lay the responsibility upon me. I am not guilty. When the Lord reveals something to me, I will consider the matter with my brethren, and when it becomes proper, I will let it be known to the people, and not otherwise. …

Now, these stories of revelations that are being circulated around are of no consequence except for rumor and silly talk by persons that have no authority.
After Pres. Smith died his son, who was a member of the Quorum of 12, Joseph Fielding Smith had to take up the gauntlet:
There is a lying spirit abroad in the land. In my travels in the stakes of Zion, my attention has been called, on a number of occasions, to a purported revelation or vision or manifestation, whatever it may be called, supposed to have been received by President Smith sometime in the distant past, in regard to events of great importance dealing with the nations of the earth and the Latter-day Saints. Many things in that purported vision, or revelation, are absurd. My attention has been called to this thing, and good brethren and good sisters have inquired of me to know whether or not there was any truth in that which had come to their attention. It is in printed form; and I have been under the necessity of telling them that there was no truth in it. …
I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that if you understand the Church articles and covenants, if you will read the Scriptures and become familiar with those things which are recorded in the revelations from the Lord, it will not be necessary for you to ask any questions in regard to the authenticity or otherwise of any purported revelation, vision, or manifestation that proceeds out of darkness, concocted in some corner, surreptitiously presented, and not coming through the proper channels of the Church. Let me add that when a revelation comes for the guidance of this people, you may be sure that it will not be presented in some mysterious manner contrary to the order of the Church. It will go forth in such form that the people will understand that it comes from those who are in authority, for it will be sent either to the presidents of stakes and the bishops of the wards over the signatures of the presiding authorities, or it will be published in some of the regular papers or magazines under the control and direction of the Church, or it will be presented before such a gathering as this, at a general conference. It will not spring up in some distant part of the Church and be in the hands of some obscure individual without authority, and thus be circulated among the Latter-day Saints. Now, you may remember this. …

Now I maintain that there is no occasion for any member of this Church to have a doubt in his mind regarding matters of revelation as coming for the guidance of the Church, because when such things come they will come in the proper channels and be presented by those who are ordained to this calling, and who are known to the Church. Therefore, when you hear these rumors, you put it down that they are false, and it is absolutely unnecessary for you to ask the question of anyone, because you ought to know by the inspiration you have yourselves whether or not they are true. …

In 1931, Joseph Fielding Smith had to address this same 'vision':
making inquiry concerning a certain purported revelation said to have been given many years ago to President Joseph F. Smith, in which he saw the destruction of many great cities and many countries of the world and other very unusual things.....

Now, I think we are fortunate in having President Smith’s own expression in regard to these purported revelations. It seems strange to me that now, some twelve years later, we still find them in circulation. But the thing that astonishes me more is the fact that members of the Church seem to be bewildered and in wonderment whether or not these purported revelations were indeed given to the Prophet Joseph and to President Joseph F. Smith. ….

Who is it that is deceived in this Church? Not the man who has been faithful in the discharge of duty; not the man who has made himself acquainted with the word of the Lord; not the man who has practiced the commandments given in these revelations; but the man who is not acquainted with the truth, the man who is in spiritual darkness, the man who does not comprehend and understand the principles of the Gospel. Such a man will be deceived, and when these false spirits come among us he may not understand or be able to distinguish between light and darkness.
bold added for emphasis

So, for many years it was attributed to Joseph F. Smith. Now it is attributed to John Taylor. So, we have to ask; Is it a true vision, did someone really see it AND did it come from God or is it bogus? I don't know for certain, but considering that Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith both condemned it and the real author never came forward to claim it, I am inclined to believe it is a fraud.

I also think that these two wise men had some sound advice for us today, considering the many dreams and visions circulating today. We need to be a little bit more careful about accepting things on face value, but should study them out carefully, and if they do not come through the proper channels, we REALLY need to be careful about the claims made.

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WarMonger
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by WarMonger »

AI2.0 wrote: I also think that these two wise men had some sound advice for us today, considering the many dreams and visions circulating today. We need to be a little bit more careful about accepting things on face value, but should study them out carefully, and if they do not come through the proper channels, we REALLY need to be careful about the claims made. It is all true and if you are unlucky enough you will live to see these visions fulfilled.

It is completely in line with our modern understanding of the plagues and scriptures that are soon to be pored out on the earth that so many have seen. Yes many have seen Missouri wiped clean and it is scriptural that people will go to Zion (Jackson County) upon the waters.

Your modus operandi is to systematical deny ever vision and NDE given and quote a few passages from church leaders out of context. This is not the work of deceiving men, how is this vision deceiving or detract from the the gospel, or give guideline to the church and usurp the Authorized church leadership?? it does none of those things or is Antichrist :-? It is too accurate given that date when the vision was first published. It is the true word of God and manna to my soul down to the letter.

D&C29:18 Wherefore, I the Lord God will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof, and shall eat their flesh, and shall cause maggots to come in upon them;
19 And their tongues shall be stayed that they shall not utter against me; and their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets;

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WarMonger
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

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This here is a challenge from the Lord.
D&C67:6 Now, seek ye out of the Book of Commandments, even the least that is among them, and appoint him that is the most wise among you;
7 Or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true;
8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.

You agnostics challenge every vision, why don't you try and make one like unto it. There are a few false ones around - you can spot them a mile away if you have a heart to desire truth, and have the HG with you. The John Taylor vision is perfectly in line will revealed truth, if you lean to your own understanding - it will be over your head as one needs to spiritually understand these things. Having a great fear of the tribulations to come and not understanding how they will be poured out is leaving you in anxiety and denial of the truth.

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durangout
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by durangout »

WarMonger wrote: It is completely in line with our modern understanding of the plagues and scriptures that are soon to be pored out on the earth that so many have seen. Yes many have seen Missouri wiped clean and it is scriptural that people will go to Zion (Jackson County) upon the waters.

You might want to change the "our" in your first secntece to "my".

Mcox
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by Mcox »

Thank you AI2. This is the "revelation" that all the Roger Young, Sarah Menot, Julie Rowe followers credit as the most important vision, and what they base their last days movement on. I had heard that this dream was a fraud. But you made the case. You are amazing!

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WarMonger
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

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Mcox wrote:Thank you AI2. This is the "revelation" that all the Roger Young, Sarah Menot, Julie Rowe followers credit as the most important vision, and what they base their last days movement on. I had heard that this dream was a fraud. But you made the case. You are amazing!
There is a lot of people you are judging there, GAS, VoG etc as well as all those have felt the spirit when reading those accounts. My experience has been most members agree with all those vision - a true sign of the times the vast majority of the church is in apostasy.

Mcox
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by Mcox »

I'm not judging people, I'm judging the "tent city" movement. It is not doctrine. I have never heard a general authority teach that doctrine. And the movement is all based on the John Taylor vision. And it's a fraud, that's a big deal.

Kent
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by Kent »

The original vision mentioned in the op came from Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878. Do with it what you will, the church has never officially debunked this vision as it has with Joseph Smith's purported White Horse prophecy.

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/jo ... ys-vision/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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francisco.colaco
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by francisco.colaco »

Warmonger,

Can you find someone at the very least 160 years old today in Utah?

Unfortunately, the problems do not end there.

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AI2.0
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by AI2.0 »

WarMonger wrote:This here is a challenge from the Lord.
D&C67:6 Now, seek ye out of the Book of Commandments, even the least that is among them, and appoint him that is the most wise among you;
7 Or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true;
8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.

You agnostics challenge every vision, why don't you try and make one like unto it. There are a few false ones around - you can spot them a mile away if you have a heart to desire truth, and have the HG with you. The John Taylor vision is perfectly in line will revealed truth, if you lean to your own understanding - it will be over your head as one needs to spiritually understand these things. Having a great fear of the tribulations to come and not understanding how they will be poured out is leaving you in anxiety and denial of the truth.
Do you include Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith in the group you've labeled 'agnostics' because we don't blindly accept every 'vision' that is put forward? They both spoke out against THIS particular vision--I posted their words and they were not taken out of context--they were referring specifically to this vision--Joseph Fielding Smith even said that much in it was 'absurd'. And he felt it was the work of a 'lying spirit'. I'm sorry, but I'll stand with the prophets first...and last. I'm not going to accept an anonymous 'vision' that no one had the guts to come forward and claim and prophets dismissed.

And why would I try to 'make one like it'???? Why would I do that??? In my opinion, that is how we, LDS, GOT in this mess--people trying to make up their own revelations. Ezekiel condemned this saying: "set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophecy thou against them." Ezek 13:17. He too, clearly saw men and women who put forward their own 'prophecies' and 'visions', but the source was not from God. He condemned them saying; "foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!" vs. 3

Yes, there are a lot of false revelations out there and if you can remain objective and not get caught up in the emotion and hype and hysteria of the times, it's not hard to keep from being be deceived.

And if you listen to the Lord's true prophets there's no reason to be caught up with the crowds following after false ones.

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AI2.0
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by AI2.0 »

WarMonger wrote:
Mcox wrote:Thank you AI2. This is the "revelation" that all the Roger Young, Sarah Menot, Julie Rowe followers credit as the most important vision, and what they base their last days movement on. I had heard that this dream was a fraud. But you made the case. You are amazing!
There is a lot of people you are judging there, GAS, VoG etc as well as all those have felt the spirit when reading those accounts. My experience has been most members agree with all those vision - a true sign of the times the vast majority of the church is in apostasy.

Except that the vast majority of the church is NOT in apostasy, but Satan would sure like you to think that.

This church is headed by a Prophet of God and if we stay close to the church and heed the counsel given us, we will not be deceived in the last days, period. If you go running off after this person or that person who have a dream or a vision or an NDE, and you start listening to them more than the Lord's anointed prophets, seers and revelators, you are headed for problems.

I read NDE books, I have quite a library of them. I find them interesting, but I also do not take what they say literally. I also believe that some may be embellished and some may even have been deceived and of course, there is always the possibility that the writer is being deceitful. I gleaned a lot of insight from Visions of Glory and I think the content of the George Albert Smith vision could be a mostly accurate rendition of something he shared--BUT, that's because so far, I don't have anything to tell me otherwise. But I also keep the door open that it might be a fraud, you never know.

We live in perilous times, there is no doubt that we'll see more problems, but I live my life with optimism and expectation. I look forward to General Conference in October and my daughter returning from her mission, I'll be sure to buy candy for the trick or treaters and plan out Thanksgiving dinner. I anticipate Christmas and the next year and coming elections in 2016. I'm not going to put my life on hold because someone had a dream that everything's going to fall apart in a couple of months.

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AI2.0
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by AI2.0 »

Kent wrote:The original vision mentioned in the op came from Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878. Do with it what you will, the church has never officially debunked this vision as it has with Joseph Smith's purported White Horse prophecy.

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/jo ... ys-vision/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kent, actually Joseph Fielding Smith did speak negatively about this particular vision--that's the point of why I posted this thread. I posted his comments above in my OP, if you'd like to read it. I am aware Wilford Woodruff copied it in his journal--that is also mentioned in the OP. You might want to read what I've shared and the link also.

FYI, while he was alive, John Taylor NEVER admitted to being the author of this vision and no one ever tried to suggest he was, not until much later after he'd been dead for several decades.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by francisco.colaco »

This vision (this particular vision) is falsifiable and falsified. The author is promised to live *through* it all. (3rd paragraph, end)

As the vision was not fulfilled, the author will be at the very least 160 yeas old and living today. Those that accept the vision will have no trouble finding the author, if the vision is indeed inspired.

Am I the only one, I sometimes wonder, that actually reads the texts?

AI,

About the George Albert Smith's vision, one of the accounts (LaVernin) states clearly that a written record was made, which was shown that Prophet the very same day, and was acknowledged by him. Unfortunately I do not know who the authors of this account are.

The other account (Hoyte) has not that mention, of a written record. However, in the discussion in this forum it was reported that David Hoyte had called his older brother, also present at the family reunion, who denied the word Greek. No other remarks or amendments were proposed, according to the report. Even though a diary record is not mentioned, I would not be surprised that one of the older brothers had indeed record the vision the following days.

I am too far to have known Brother Hoyte, but I have diligently inquired those who knew him and failed to see any indication of suspicion torwards him. He was considered universally by those that knew him an upstanding and honest person. For me that suffices to accept his vision account generally, while the former account (LaVernin) can be accepted specifically, because it mentions a fresh diary record, of which a sanction from the prophet was obtained.

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AI2.0
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by AI2.0 »

francisco.colaco wrote:This vision (this particular vision) is falsifiable and falsified. The author is promised to live *through* it all. (3rd paragraph, end)

As the vision was not fulfilled, the author will be at the very least 160 yeas old and living today. Those that accept the vision will have no trouble finding the author, if the vision is indeed inspired.

Am I the only one, I sometimes wonder, that actually reads the texts?

AI,

About the George Albert Smith's vision, one of the accounts (LaVernin) states clearly that a written record was made, which was shown that Prophet the very same day, and was acknowledged by him. Unfortunately I do not know who the authors of this account are.

The other account (Hoyte) has not that mention, of a written record. However, in the discussion in this forum it was reported that David Hoyte had called his older brother, also present at the family reunion, who denied the word Greek. No other remarks or amendments were proposed, according to the report. Even though a diary record is not mentioned, I would not be surprised that one of the older brothers had indeed record the vision the following days.

I am too far to have known Brother Hoyte, but I have diligently inquired those who knew him and failed to see any indication of suspicion torwards him. He was considered universally by those that knew him an upstanding and honest person. For me that suffices to accept his vision account generally, while the former account (LaVernin) can be accepted specifically, because it mentions a fresh diary record, of which a sanction from the prophet was obtained.
Thanks for pointing that out about the author being told he'd 'live through' it all. I think the problem is that we don't read carefully and sometimes we are inclined to pick and choose what we'll view as literal and what is figurative. Some will accept everything the author shares as literal events to take place, but then discount the promise that he'd live through it as simply figurative--because they WANT to believe in it's veracity.

In regards to the George Albert Smith vision, I also remember reading somewhere that Hugh Nibley shared an additional anecdote for that vision having actually happened --but I can't remember the particulars, I'd have to search around for something to refresh my memory. I'm sorry I've forgotten the details, I read this a few years ago someplace, but the impression that stayed with me was that it should not simply be discounted. And, it is significant that the people who shared their recollections were not anonymous--they are putting their reputations out there when they do this.
There was a thread on this vision several years ago on this board--I found it long before I considered joining here and I remember it had a lot of interesting information.

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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by iWriteStuff »

Francisco and AI2.0 - you two are pretty good researchers. Definitely hats off to you for your investigative persistence. If we, as a church, still believed in the mission of the Boy Scouts of America, I'd say you two have earned your Vision Debunker's Merit Badge.

Seriously, I appreciate your work. I wish I had time for more of it. As it is, I've been focusing more on scriptures and personal revelation lately. Makes debunking myself even easier!

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oneClimbs
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by oneClimbs »

Law of witnesses anyone? Not a good idea to trust anonymous things that magically appear.

Agree with Fransisco, the vision clearly prophesies falsely. So what if it matches things that are supposed to happen, if anyone wants something else like that I can type one up for you ;)

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rewcox
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by rewcox »

It reminds me of someone chumming piranha. Lots of boiling water!

It's interesting to review some of the threads from LDSFF in 2008-2010.

I'm not sure things will go crazy in Sept, only a short time away. We'll see.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by francisco.colaco »

rewcox wrote:It reminds me of someone chumming piranha. Lots of boiling water!

It's interesting to review some of the threads from LDSFF in 2008-2010.

I'm not sure things will go crazy in Sept, only a short time away. We'll see.
In a crescendo, yes. Crazy, no. The next US presidential elections that choose a new president must be held. Barring the repeal of the 22nd, and subsequent fraud to make the Kenyan Manchurian candidate have another go at fundamentally transforming American into the likes of a Kenyan slum, the elections of replacement will be held at November 2016. Held means no collapse until that point. Strife, yes, but the social order shan't be broken.

Have my advice and be not near a military base or Washington DC during Christmas 2016.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by francisco.colaco »

iWriteStuff wrote:Francisco and AI2.0 - you two are pretty good researchers. Definitely hats off to you for your investigative persistence. If we, as a church, still believed in the mission of the Boy Scouts of America, I'd say you two have earned your Vision Debunker's Merit Badge.

Seriously, I appreciate your work. I wish I had time for more of it. As it is, I've been focusing more on scriptures and personal revelation lately. Makes debunking myself even easier!
Thanks for your vote of confidence. I claim no personal revelation debunking these documents, and I try to harm no prophets while doing it.

I just cross documents and find clues in them. That is nothing extraordinary. I do not have the resources a member of the Desert State has, nor the personal connections to obtain references of the authors of the documents.

For instance, I read the 2nd chapter of Julie Rowe's first book and found a terrible inconsistency with the teachings of Brigham Young. She claims to have seen in the spirit world a tree from another planet (a kind of willow). That is when I stopped reading. Were she inspired she would know that no one ministers to this planet if not belonging to this planet. The extraterrestrial contacts will be only made after the judgement and salvation. And Brigham Young also said that the Spirit World is here, on this planet, confirming the idea of planetary isolation (that applies at the least to Earth, where the atonement was perfomed; as to the other planets, I do not know and nothing was said).

If a willow-like tree can come from another planet, missionary persons can come too, violating the law which is, by the way, scriptural. If someone wishes to confront Mrs. Rowe with that, feel free to do so.

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GrandMasterB
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by GrandMasterB »

Do you include Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith in the group you've labeled 'agnostics' because we don't blindly accept every 'vision' that is put forward? They both spoke out against THIS particular vision--I posted their words and they were not taken out of context--they were referring specifically to this vision--Joseph Fielding Smith even said that much in it was 'absurd'. And he felt it was the work of a 'lying spirit'. I'm sorry, but I'll stand with the prophets first...and last. I'm not going to accept an anonymous 'vision' that no one had the guts to come forward and claim and prophets dismissed.

And why would I try to 'make one like it'???? Why would I do that??? In my opinion, that is how we, LDS, GOT in this mess--people trying to make up their own revelations. Ezekiel condemned this saying: "set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophecy thou against them." Ezek 13:17. He too, clearly saw men and women who put forward their own 'prophecies' and 'visions', but the source was not from God. He condemned them saying; "foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!" vs. 3

Yes, there are a lot of false revelations out there and if you can remain objective and not get caught up in the emotion and hype and hysteria of the times, it's not hard to keep from being be deceived.

And if you listen to the Lord's true prophets there's no reason to be caught up with the crowds following after false ones.
From what you posted I don't see where it was referring to this particular prophecy. Can you provide more evidence that is was this prophecy they were speaking against. Furthermore what they were mostly arguing is that Joseph F Smith was not the author not necessarily that the contents were false. However, in the last quote it would appear that they were discounting the contents somewhat. How do we know it was this prophecy they were referring too?

EmmaLee
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by EmmaLee »

5tev3 wrote:Law of witnesses anyone? Not a good idea to trust anonymous things that magically appear.

Agree with Fransisco, the vision clearly prophesies falsely. So what if it matches things that are supposed to happen, if anyone wants something else like that I can type one up for you ;)
Well, it "magically appeared" in Wilford Woodruff's journal when he was the Prophet. Seems strange he would include something in his journal that was filled with clear false prophesies, etc. but to each his own. Makes you wonder what all else we read about in the various Prophets' journals (and other books) that is false crap... :-?

Onsdag
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by Onsdag »

francisco.colaco wrote:
About the George Albert Smith's vision, one of the accounts (LaVernin) states clearly that a written record was made, which was shown that Prophet the very same day, and was acknowledged by him. Unfortunately I do not know who the authors of this account are.

The other account (Hoyte) has not that mention, of a written record. However, in the discussion in this forum it was reported that David Hoyte had called his older brother, also present at the family reunion, who denied the word Greek. No other remarks or amendments were proposed, according to the report. Even though a diary record is not mentioned, I would not be surprised that one of the older brothers had indeed record the vision the following days.

I am too far to have known Brother Hoyte, but I have diligently inquired those who knew him and failed to see any indication of suspicion torwards him. He was considered universally by those that knew him an upstanding and honest person. For me that suffices to accept his vision account generally, while the former account (LaVernin) can be accepted specifically, because it mentions a fresh diary record, of which a sanction from the prophet was obtained.
The George Albert Smith account in question can be found in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16106&start=360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to clarify, the "LaVerkin" account was written and published to AVOW by a person named "Copenhagen" about 4 years ago (my membership on AVOW has expired so I cannot verify the exact date). I am personally acquainted with "Copenhagen," he is married to one of my cousins, and his real name is Ross Kevin Fuller, son of Luther Carlos Fuller and Rosalba Gubler Fuller. A few days after publishing the account "Copenhagen" then deleted it from AVOW. As I understand it however, not before someone copied and pasted the text (without the author's knowledge or permission) and sent it out in an email to others, including "BroJones" of this forum, who then published it (again, without the author's knowledge or permission) to the above-linked thread. It has since made its way to other parts of the internet on the rumor-mill. It is supposedly an account of an "interview" that Kevin's brother, Henry Dee (H.D.) Fuller, had as a young man with George Albert Smith. As I mentioned in that thread I urge caution in accepting it as a true account. For more details, and to not further detract from this thread, please visit the above-linked thread.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by francisco.colaco »

Onsdag wrote:As I mentioned in that thread I urge caution in accepting it as a true account. For more details, and to not further detract from this thread, please visit the above-linked thread.
He may have written it and then, thinking he had overstepped his bounds, retracted. I would do the same, had I the same feeling. However, it was written and copied. It may be true or false. Copenhagen may be a prankster, a liar or a nutjob: any or any combination of the three would disqualify the account --- and your relative.

It is good someone is in a position to either ask the author or give us references of the author. Werther he is sane and honest or a conniving fool. Onsdag, is he trustworthy?

(If he is, and you happen to run into him and touch this subject, please give him my unbounded appreciation. His second witness of the George Albert Smith account started me on a path that led to my reactivation, and I in turn have helped to reactivate others. So, he touched, however briefly and years after the fact, lives about 6.000 miles away. I am sure I am not the only one.)


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WarMonger
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Re: A vision of the last days purpoted to be by John Taylor

Post by WarMonger »

francisco.colaco wrote:If a willow-like tree can come from another planet, missionary persons can come too, violating the law which is, by the way, scriptural. If someone wishes to confront Mrs. Rowe with that, feel free to do so.
That is dumb, we don't know all things, and species adapt to environment, There are many account of people being in the spirit world and observing a variety of plant life. You only see what you want to see.

The new testament four gospels have different accounts of the same events. Why don't we just throw the entire bile away, the same with Joseph smith accounts of the first vision etc...

These things need to be spiritually discerned, to come to the truth, talking about things you have not seen, and suppose you know better is very dangerous. I have posted before J.Row is prepared to accept the consequences of her works (books etc..), are you prepared to accept the consequences of your deriding, and the actions people might take due to your words. Senior and local church leadership do not judge J.Row but you exceed your authority to judge her - and condemn her works as false, then in the same breath you say she has no authority. It is the pot calling the kettle black: I would highly recommend you don't continue with your vain unauthorized judgement.

J.Rowe is a active member of the church held in good stead, guaranteed the LDS church knows of her works and even supports her, allowing her to use church facilities. People who write false works like DS get excommunicated...

None of these things matter you will soon be eating your words is the most humble fashion that is my prophecy.....
Last edited by WarMonger on August 3rd, 2015, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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