modern day Sodom and Gomorrah

[jimmy]

The same thing is happening in Toronto Canada, I lived 1 hour away for that city 2 years ago but I am 1500 miles away and I hope this distance is far enough to escape the destruction that will happen to that city and ones like it.

[Desert Roses]

What I don't get is, what's the point of "gay pride" ? Gay pride to me sounds like the are proud of being gay....ok.... so what does being attracted to the same sex have to do with flashing your genitals in public? Any other time that's a crime. And yes I get that that's not what most of them do but still...the rainbows and the feather boas, and all that...what does it have to do with ANYTHING AT ALL? It's just an excuse to have a crazy sex parade in public. I'm just glad that the slc one isn't like that.

...YET

[samizdat]

Here in my city in Mexico they just had their seventh or eighth gay pride festival. Fully sponsered by the state government and the institute in charge of the youth in state government. With their huge placard: Homosexuality is not a sin or a sickness, Homophobia is.

Isaiah 5:20

[brianne541]

What I don't get is, what's the point of "gay pride" ? Gay pride to me sounds like the are proud of being gay....ok.... so what does being attracted to the same sex have to do with flashing your genitals in public? Any other time that's a crime. And yes I get that that's not what most of them do but still...the rainbows and the feather boas, and all that...what does it have to do with ANYTHING AT ALL? It's just an excuse to have a crazy sex parade in public. I'm just glad that the slc one isn't like that.

I was thinking the same exact thing. Why is it OK for these people to exhibit lewdness and indecent exposure, but for anyone else there is a citation or even jail?? Reminded me that we do INDEED live in a time where evil is considered good, and good is considered evil. So sad. It's almost like these people are rubbing their choices and vulgarity in God's face :-s I guarantee that he will have the final word in it tho

[boo]

I was in chicago 2 weeks ago for my older son's graduation and were walking around Michigan Ave at 8 pm and a group of 2000 naked bicyclists rode by .Not partially clothed, not just in underwear but completely naked.. i have PG rated pictures if anyone doubts me .My 20 year son expressed the wish that they all put their clothes back on. It was surreal

[Thomas]

I was in chicago 2 weeks ago for my older son's graduation and were walking around Michigan Ave at 8 pm and a group of 2000 naked bicyclists rode by .Not partially clothed, not just in underwear but completely naked.. i have PG rated pictures if anyone doubts me .My 20 year son expressed the wish that they all put their clothes back on. It was surreal

Well, I hear that a picture lasts longer. Thanks for the offer of sharing. ;)

[shadow]

2 Nephi 13

9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!

[Thomas]

48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

I think we are so caught up in sexual morality that we often overlook the weightier aspects of moral behavior.

[jdawg1012]

48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

I think we are so caught up in sexual morality that we often overlook the weightier aspects of moral behavior.

Yep. And to the original poster the history of "pride" started when people used to get away with beating and/or murdering gay people (and the flashpoint came with police arresting them). (I believe it started one year after the "Stonewall riots," but cannot say with certainty). They still do get attacked, mistreated, and murdered, it's just not as frequent or overt. It was the gay community's way of showing that they exist and aren't going to be beaten, arrested or murdered, simply for being gay, and go quietly into the dark.

The sin of Sodom, according to Ezekiel, was that they didn't take care of the poor and were materialistic. If any case were to be made of "sexual sin" in Sodom leading to its destruction, it would be raping messengers of the Lord, not sexual sin generally. Rape often isn't about sex anyway, but power, and historically it's been used to dehumanize adversaries (fitting with the Genesis account, and Ezekiel's unequivocal statement of materialism). I can name over a dozen cities destroyed for killing innocents and prophets (or trying to), I can't name a single one that was destroyed for anything else. 3 Nephi 9 names city after city destroyed due to the blood of the prophets and the saints, for example.

In any event, anyone that thinks that this is exclusive to "Pride" is excessively ignorant of "Carnival." (A time when missionaries are usually ordered to stay inside for a week or more in places). People in general are lewd, it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. I went to "Pride" for the first time ever, this year, to support "Mormons building bridges." I didn't see a single thing I haven't seen go on in other cities, daily, or any immodesty surpassing any beach or water park I've ever been to (though of course cities like San Francisco have events that are far more lewd than Salt Lake City did).

Oh, and lastly, Sodom to a man (every single one), was willing to rape the prophets, as punishment. Gordon B. Hinckley said, "I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah." If the case was made that the sin was homosexuality, it'd have to be every single man in our day wanting to rape men. But if, like Ezekial states, the sin is due to materialism, then the corollary can be drawn. No case can be made for the sin leading to Sodom's destruction being homosexuality, since they were going to rape Lot's daughters, too. Rejecting prophets and hurting them is always a cause of destruction. In Sodom, they would have probably raped them to death, or raped then murdered them. Context always matters. Ezekiel and the JST give context to the Genesis account. This topic was discussed at length and well referenced on another thread a few months back.

People love to scapegoat gay people, but nothing justifies the blame for that fact that anything and everything is laid, almost exclusively, at their feet, and their feet alone. Carry on.

[dtanner]

It's not about love
It's not about acceptance
It's not about tolerance
It's not about respect or being 'who I am' etc.
It's not about anything that's good or holy or godly

It's about sexualizing everyone and everything
It's about sexualizing children
It's about sexualizing animals
It's about destroying families and culture and creating confusion in mankind.
It's idolatry which worships the creature and mocks the creator and is a powerful juggernaut of evil bent on destroying every person who will not bow down and worship it's doctrine.

I don't care to look at the pictures or go to the events or discuss it as it only creates more advertising and propaganda for its use. This is deception dressed in its most cunning, flamboyant, and arrogant costume. It's hard to look away. Its' hard to not talk about it or notice it. And those who get sucked in can rarely get out.

Unfortunately, too, many who worship its doctrine are good people with good intentions and I don't think they understand the beast that they're incorporating themselves into.

Up is down, down is up. Love is hate and hate is love. Progress is decline and decline is progress.

[pjbrownie]

Pride parades are unfortunately associated with sexual debauchery in the bigger cities. Its a bad brand. I don't think any Mormon building a bridge would want to caught dead associating with Pride. Create a new march that's associated with civil rights, if you feel so inclined, not one associated with lewdness.

[jdawg1012]

Pride parades are unfortunately associated with sexual debauchery in the bigger cities. Its a bad brand. I don't think any Mormon building a bridge would want to caught dead associating with Pride. Create a new march that's associated with civil rights, if you feel so inclined, not one associated with lewdness.

I can only assume that was directed at me, since I was the one that referenced "Mormons Building Bridges." (Unless I missed someone else).

I don't think any Mormon building a bridge would want to caught dead associating with Pride

That would be incorrect, as there were several hundred people there to support it, just from the parade participants, alone (they were the largest group to walk in the parade, IIRC, though I did not walk in it myself, I went to support others and see for myself what was happening with the group). That's not including "Affirmation" another LDS-oriented organization. There were lots of nice people giving out free hugs, at a couple of booths, for example, which did good for many people, undoubtedly. I applaud their compassion for other people who have been mistreated. I don't personally care to hide behind barriers (physical or mental) for safety, for someone has to go out amongst real, live, people to bring in the sheaves, and extend love. There's only so much yammering about love and compassion that can be done, eventually someone has to go do it.

Create a new march that's associated with civil rights, if you feel so inclined, not one associated with lewdness.

My advocacy for equal treatment under the law, and the principles of agency and accountability, TO GOD, don't start or end with parades ("marches"). No matter what gay people do--including being alive--someone is angry, so with all due respect, I'll support my fellow children of Heavenly Father as I feel directed, not just in the ways others are comfortable with.

I appreciate the recommendation to do more, though. I can't name a single organization on the planet that's not associated with one sin or another, rightfully or wrongfully. I don't come from a culture of keeping up appearances, so frankly I don't care what people associate me with, in their own minds. Pharisees complained non-stop about with whom Jesus kept company, and what he was doing, no matter what he did. He ignored them too, and went about doing good. They nitpicked over Him doing things all the time, like healing on the Sabbath, but He just went on showing people love, and advocating for, not punishing, others. A day for final judgement will come, and Jesus Christ will indeed be judge, and consign states of happiness or misery. But until that time, my "standing orders" are to treat my fellow sons and daughters of God, how I would want to be treated.

I know dozens, if not hundreds of gay people. I want to share something: I have invited, and successfully brought many who have left the church, to ward functions, and activities, and church services, Gay or Straight, Adulterers, or whatever. Referring to recent associations with gay people: many have offered prayer with me who haven't prayed or spoken with their God and King, in months or years. Many will talk about the scriptures with me, or read with me, when they haven't in a long, long time. One, I now know, has been inspired to try to go to the temple. Why? It's because I love them, and through that love, they know that God loves them, too. Where others have rejected and abused them, I don't view them as any more sinful than, say, the self-righteous "Pharisaint" who spends Sunday watching football, or the woman who sends her children off to a daycare to play bunko with her friends. ALL of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So until God tells me otherwise, I'll just keep loving them, and extending an arm of compassion. After all, that's exactly what I, myself, want.

[jockeybox]

I want you to know that I am not a "gay basher". I know you never said that but I just want to clear the air about my stance on all of this. I don't group all gay people in the same category, nor do I condone the mistreatment or abandonment of them by their families.

If this is true, then why list them this parade as "modern day Sodom and Gomorrah"? What does Sodom and Gomorrah that have to do with being gay?

If anything, SLC (more accurqatly temple square) is more ripe for destruction that San Francisco. As jdawg accurately posted, Sodom and Gomorrah's sin wasn't homosexuality. It was pride, possessions and neglecting the poor. Sure there was some general lasciviousness, but to list being "gay" as the main reason God destroyed it, is grossly misrepresenting the scriptures and inappropriately labeling a group of people. It's worth noting, all of the major sins associated with Sodom and Gomorrah are quite pervasive in the "Saltican City".

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

[pjbrownie]

Characteristics of Sodom and Gomorrah are controversial. I think it's both. A society that is selfish by nature tends to both be grinding upon the poor and grinding upon each other.

Most people don't understand that there are two distinct flavors of the gay community--one is a marginalized group that feel abandoned and lost--mostly because they have attractions or inclinations that are different--the other is a set of no-holds-barred sexual deviants that prey upon the first group. We tend lump both groups together--on both sides. We as Latter-day Saints need to know the difference so that while reaching out to the first group, we don't lend credence to the second.

[Cowboy]

Yet another thread starting out showing the modern evils and how bad it is getting which quickly deteriorates into everyone apologizing and making sure THEY are not being offensive and finally the the required anti-Mormon post about how evil the Church is.
AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[davedan]

I think we are so caught up in sexual morality that we often overlook the weightier aspects of moral behavior.

Be careful to not separate sexual morality and substance abuse from poverty. These 2 sins are the major root causes of poverty through Illegitimacy and idleness. The State jumps in and provides welfare to the poor without addressing the virtue issues (cause) making the person dependent on the State, That is why both welfare and virtue is to be the job of the Church. The Church will help lift people out of poverty by addressing the virtue issues.

President Monson talked about the sins of sexual immorality and substance abuse as the 2 sins that caused the fall of Rome last July Ensign 2013. He said our culture is following the same path.

James 1:27 says pure religion is both welfare and virtue.

[abelchirino]

I understand that this has been discussed many time but I just want to add my opinion. It is true that Ezekiel did not mention immorality. That does not mean that it wasn't one of Sodom's/Gomorrah's great sins. We know for example that Alma said that sexual sin is second only to murder in the eyes of God, of the worst sins that one can commit.

Sodom and Gomorrah did not just practice homosexuality. They were reveling in every kind of immorality. So it is true that we may be misinterpreting the scriptures if we single out homosexuality as THE SIN of Sodom/Gomorrah. But it is also true that we will be undermining the scriptures if we do not admit that immorality (including homosexuality) was after this was "after the wickedness of Sodom" according JST Genesis 19:12.

It is true that Jesus Christ was friend, or would sit, with sinners. Nobody denies that. But Jesus was never a convenient Christ. You may recall that many had followed after Jesus when he was popular and had fed thousands miraculously. Yet right after those miracles, he spoke harshly to the people. Or at least the people themselves felt that what he was saying was to hard and they stopped following him.

We have to get over this new image that many try to give of Christ being only about love, understanding and kind words and feelings. He was much more than that. He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. He reproves and condemns just as much as he forgives and blesses.

So, I do not condone any mistreatment towards anyone who is suffering from the weight of any kind of immorality. I have a cousin who identifies himself as gay. I many more who are not living the law of chastity either. I love them all the same and treat them all the same. I care about them. But I will never deny that immorality, whatever it is, is a gross sin in the eyes of God. It is in the scriptures and the condemnation is clear and plain. Any kind of immorality is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

So we are like Sodom/Gomorrah, not just because of homosexuality but because of every kind of immorality that is promoted, defended and protected in our days. Because you see even children being affected by it. Because in schools, TV, music and movies you see a arduous effort to sexualize everybody and everything. Now if you measure our civilization under the Ezekiel standard, then we would find that we fit that description as well. So under the definition of the scriptures, we have become like Sodom/Gomorrah in every aspect.

[ajax]

We know for example that Alma said that sexual sin is second only to murder in the eyes of God, of the worst sins that one can commit.

Maybe. Maybe not.

[shadow]

48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

I think we are so caught up in sexual morality that we often overlook the weightier aspects of moral behavior.

Don't stop at verse 49, read on.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
I wonder what "abomination" is.
Leviticus 18-
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Even the New Testament notes the sin of these cities. From Jude-
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


The night prior to their destruction-
4 ¶But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

The culminating sin of Sodom and Gomorrah that destroyed them was homosexual behavior. That's the weightier aspect. That's the one that required them being destroyed.

[Thomas]

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There is no doubt that Sodom and Gomorrah were well known for their sexual sin and it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man. However, I disagree with the reason for the destruction. One can be a homosexual and care deeply for his neighbors and enemies alike. If he commits the sin, with a willing partner, he has hurt himself and the partner. He is likely less sinful than those who despise him because of his sin.

Materialism is a sin that damages many. It grinds the faces of the poor and it is one of the reasons God has said he will destroy this people ( the modern LDS).

I have seen many warnings, given in scripture, that this people will be destroyed, but none of them list homosexual behavior as the cause.

In any case, it would be wise to remember that none of us has cause to think our sin is less than another's as God sees us all as fallen.

[jockeybox]

We know for example that Alma said that sexual sin is second only to murder in the eyes of God, of the worst sins that one can commit.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I choose "maybe not". And here is why.
Reading Alma 39, in context, WITHOUT reading the misleading chapter heading:

Alma 39
2 For thou didst not give so much heed unto my words as did thy brother, among the people of the Zoramites. Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom.

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

First, it never states Corianton had sex with her. It can only be implied at best.

Notice what was the "abomination". The real sin was he "should have tended to the ministry". God "entrusted" (verse 4) and "called" (verse 16) Corianton. The abomination was leading people away from Christ. That is what is next to denying the Holy Ghost. When you spiritually murder "the light and knowledge of God” (verse 6) to someone else, then you have a real issue on your hands. Chasing a harlot is wrong indeed, but it is not next to murder!

Corianton's real "sins" were:
1. Not keeping the commandments (verse 1)
2. Personal pride (verse 2)
3. Forsake his ministry (verse 3)

[samizdat]

Sexual sin IS almost up there with murder...

But even so every sin that has ever been commited even Sodom's sin down to the sin of omission, have one main source: PRIDE.

[abelchirino]

We know for example that Alma said that sexual sin is second only to murder in the eyes of God, of the worst sins that one can commit.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I choose "maybe not". And here is why.
Reading Alma 39, in context, WITHOUT reading the misleading chapter heading:

Alma 39
2 For thou didst not give so much heed unto my words as did thy brother, among the people of the Zoramites. Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom.

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

First, it never states Corianton had sex with her. It can only be implied at best.

Notice what was the "abomination". The real sin was he "should have tended to the ministry". God "entrusted" (verse 4) and "called" (verse 16) Corianton. The abomination was leading people away from Christ. That is what is next to denying the Holy Ghost. When you spiritually murder "the light and knowledge of God” (verse 6) to someone else, then you have a real issue on your hands. Chasing a harlot is wrong indeed, but it is not next to murder!

Corianton's real "sins" were:
1. Not keeping the commandments (verse 1)
2. Personal pride (verse 2)
3. Forsake his ministry (verse 3)

Why call it misleading? Because it doesn't fit your understanding? Elder Jeffrey R Holland was clear in this. The following is an excerpt from 1998 General Conference talk called Personal Purity:

A more important scriptural observation is offered by the writer of Proverbs: “Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? … Whoso committeth adultery … destroyeth his own soul. A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.”

Why is this matter of sexual relationships so severe that fire is almost always the metaphor, with passion pictured vividly in flames? What is there in the potentially hurtful heat of this that leaves one’s soul—or the whole world, for that matter—destroyed if that flame is left unchecked and those passions unrestrained? What is there in all of this that prompts Alma to warn his son Corianton that sexual transgression is “an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?”

By assigning such seriousness to a physical appetite so universally bestowed, what is God trying to tell us about its place in His plan for all men and women? I submit to you He is doing precisely that—commenting about the very plan of life itself. Clearly among His greatest concerns regarding mortality are how one gets into this world and how one gets out of it. He has set very strict limits in these matters.

Fortunately, in the case of how life is terminated, most seem to be quite responsible. But in the significance of giving life, we sometimes find near-criminal irresponsibility.

Sure, leading people astray is a very serious sin. Nobody will deny that. But to say that it is second to murder-I don't know. It takes away from the meaning of this passage if you say that he was not talking about immorality.

I understand that leading people astray is a form of murder-a spiritual kind. But Alma in these chapters is helping his son understand certain things that he does not understand. There are a number of things that he does not understand but they all fall back to one main thing. He can't understand why in God's plan, does a sinner have to be punished. So then Alma goes on explaining other principles that his son didn't understand, to help him understand why there has to be punishment for the sinner.

That is why his whole teaching to his son revolves around the consequences that the sinner receives and the blessings that the righteous receives. At the end of his teaching to his son he helps him understand that it all relies on free agency. That he who wants to come to the Savior and receive blessings and be save can do so freely and nobody will force him. Yet if he doesn't want to come then he will have to suffer the punishment of the law.

He did not understand the principle of the punishment that the sinner has to suffer under the law because he himself was a sinner. Alma tells him that and he exhorts him to stop trying to justify himself and instead repent. Now you're right, it doesn't necessarily say that he had broken the law of chastity by having sexual relations with harlots but it does say that he forsook his ministry and di go after the harlot Isabel, he tells him to go no more after the lusts of his eyes and to cross himself in all of those things and to suffer no the devil to lead away his heart again after those wicked harlots.

Again, it is true that he lead people away from the gospel but it was his sins, crimes and behavior which did that and which Alma condemned repeatedly.

Sexual sin (all sexual sin) is up there with murder. Now I understand that thinking about it may be different to many than doing something about it. But the seriousness of something as little as even thinking about it is that a thought can only lead to action and the action is the abomination. Sexual sin is an abomination. Murder is an abomination. Precisely for the same reason that Elder Holland explained.

I suggest to read another talk he gave, from which he took his Personal Purity talk, called Of Souls Symbols and Sacraments. Great talk!!!

[davedan]

Charity = Pure love of Christ .... for the Father = "not as I will but as thou wilt"

Pride = Contempt and hatred for God = "desire not that the God who created them should rule and reign over them" = I don't want anyone telling me how to live my life = "do as you will".

[buffalo_girl]

Maybe some of you don't quite comprehend how depraved a person can become through sexual addiction. There is NO neutral ground when an unchaste 'impulse' becomes self-justified action - which can quickly become ungoverned self-abuse/predation.

Genesis 19
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Lot's polite request that "the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter" leave the angels alone was NOT enough to send them away.

Lot's offer of his daughters was NOT enough.

Being blinded was NOT enough.

We lived in Salt Lake City in the late 1970's, early 1980's when Arthur Gary Bishop was disappearing and killing young boys. We had three young sons ourselves. I prayed to comprehend how it was possible for anyone to murder innocence. (I'm not focusing my comment on homosexual pedophiles - but on ANY sexual addiction which develops into predation.) The answer I received was found in Genesis 19's account of the blinded 'men of Sodom' browsing Lot's house to get at the angels.

I believe that giving in to sexual impulsivity extinguishes the Light of Christ leaving the body open to demonic possession. Where the devil drives there will NEVER be edification or grace. Disrespecting oneself as a divine creation of God will inevitably lead to disrespect for the worth of others.

Having 'same sex attraction' is NOT a sin. It is a challenge to master just as any sexual attraction has the potential of being ungovernable. Even within marriage between a man and a woman there is 'potential' for depravity.

Flaunting one's sexuality is one symptom of advanced spiritual malignancy. Murder lies very near the surface of such - believe me.