Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

[abelchirino]

We are still in the sixth seal period of time. The 144,000 High Priests are set apart near the end of the sixth seal. Obviously the lost ten tribes have to return before that event can happen.

A careful reading of D&C Chapter 77 puts everything into correct chronological order.

Revelations 7:4 talks about the 144,000 being sealed. D&C 77:10 clearly states that the events in Revelations Chapter 7 takes place during the 6th seal.

Revelations 8:1 talks about the events that take place when the seventh seal is opened. D&C 77:13 says that the events in Revelations Chapter 9 take place “after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.”

Revelations Chapter 9 talks about the formation of an army of 200 million men who will kill one third of the earth’s population. This army apparently forms on the Euphrates River, either in Syria or Iraq. It would appear that the Seventh Dispensation will start off with a “bang!”

There is no way that we are living in the 7th Dispensation. Too many things have to happen first. The return of the Lost Ten Tribes is just one event, but it is an important one. We need to keep in mind, however, that horrible events can happen quickly!

Some have stated that the sixth and the seventh seal overlap in order to have the 144000 sealed in the sixth seal and have the lost tribes return in the seventh seal. Some, like you have stated that the sixth seal hasn't ended yet because the 144000 haven't been sealed yet, or the ten tribes haven't returned yet.

Revelation is really clear, and D&C helps us understand. The 144000 are sealed in the sixth seal. Yet they are then sent out into the world to preach during the seventh. This we know because the world is already going through all the punishments when they go out to preach. That is the reason why their physical state have to be changed-so that they can survive the punishments. Yet the scriptures say that they are virgins. At least that is what it sounds like. This means that they have not been married and they may still be young individuals (around the age of missionaries now-a-days). Many scholars and some GA's have stated then that the meaning of the scriptures are as follows:

The 144000 are sealed during the sixth seal.
The 144000 were picked out, chosen and sealed before they are born.
The 144000 are born close to the end of the sixth seal.
By the beginning of the seventh seal, while the world is suffering all of the punishments and judgments, once the lost tribes return, but before they actually marry, the 144000 are physically changed and sent out into the world to preach the gospel one last time.

I don't believe that there is an overlapping. If we look at the words of the scriptures and quotes from other authorities closely we will see that there is no overlapping. Now I'm not saying that we are in the sixth seal or seventh seal. I really don't know. But during the October Conference of 2001, Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley quoted some verses from Joel and said that they have already been fulfilled. Among the prophecies he mentioned are "And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come". This could give us a clue into what seal we could be in.

D&C 77: 10-11 states the the 144,000 are "high priests" (older guys) and a true "high priest" includes his wife in the true order of heaven IMO. Without the queen of heaven standing by the side of our Father or Christ, I don't believe you would have a true "high priest." So to me these "high priests" 144,000 are male and female (couples) translated beings going out to gather all that will come to the "Church of the Firstborn" (a spiritual church that has been gathering members since the days of Adam and Eve to the time Christ returns in glory IMO.

10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter to be accomplished?
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:10 - 11)

I understand what you mean but since this topic is about the seals, I will use Joseph Smith's words.

Doctrine and Covenants 77:6-7

6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

Joseph Smith is really clear. The earth will have only seven thousand years of temporal existence before it receives its celestial glory and it becomes a sea of glass. Each seal represents one thousand years-to quote our dear President, "period". The concept of overlapping seals is as wrong as the concept of the first thousand years overlapping the second thousand years. Two does not overlap one. God did not give any on-and-a-half seals nor one-and-a-half thousand years in His calculation. So the sixth and seventh seal cannot overlap. It would also take away from the symbolism. We know seven means "an perfection". So it is during the beginning of the seventh seal that the earth is being perfected and sanctified in preparation to the coming of the Son of God.

We therefore have to turn to John, for he is the one that saw the opening of the seals. Now we have to learn that when John saw the seals, he saw what was occurring in heaven, and what was occurring on earth separately. That is why, some of the later chapters of Revelation is only a repeat (with addition detail) of what is spoken during the opening of the seals. The book with the seals is not on earth, it is in heaven. It is not opened in the earth, but rather in heaven. So therefore, most of what he sees is either occurring in heaven or from the perspective of heaven. He later sees those same events either occurring on the earth or from the perspective of the earth. That is also why we can trust that the half hour spoken of after the opening of the seventh seal is not a half hour of thirty minutes.

Now remembering that he is seeing these things occurring in heaven, and that in heaven they are showing him things of the earth, he says he sees the four angels and the other ascending from the east telling them

Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads

. And then he says

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel

. This is all happening in heaven during the sixth seal. This is evident by the fact that he immediately sees multitudes (together with the 144,000 for sure) in heaven praising God.

It is also important that it is during the opening of the seventh seal that John sees the armies of Gog (who I believe to be a part of, if not the leader of, the second beast). He goes on describing the army for some verses and even numbers them, "two hundred thousand thousand". This is the same number that attack the Jews. They are also the ones who greatly depopulate the earth (which corresponds with the King of Assyria that Isaiah uses as a type who boasts of accomplishing what, according to Joseph Smith, every tyrannical dictator has ever desired-greatly depopulating the earth). Now Joseph Smith said this will take place during the seventh seal.

According to chapters 10 and 11 of Revelations, I believe that the return of the lost tribes and the building of the Jerusalem temple will occur during the seventh seal as well. Also the war of Gog against the Jews will occur during the seventh seal. We know then, that Christ will not make His appearance to the Jews until the seventh seal.

Revelations 14 gives us further detail. Now John is seeing things as they will occur on the earth, or from the perspective of the earth. He sees Jesus Christ and the 144,000 upon Mount Zion (which is America). I believe that this refers to the moment in which they are physically sealed and sent out unto all nations to preach the Gospel one last time. This is occurring after all that I have just mentioned. Verse four then gives us a very interesting characteristic of this group,

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins

I don't think that John can get any clearer than that.

Now I understand that because Joseph Smith said that they would be High Priests, that it is logical to think that they are married. But I have not found one verse in scripture that makes marriage a requirement for High Priests. For Bishops I do find one but not for High Priests (correct me if I'm wrong). It also means they will all be men, as I have read certain quotes from GA's which say the same thing. Now because of Alma, we know that High Priests are chosen and ordained to become High Priests before they are born. This certainly matches what John says will happen with these 144,000. Before they were born, they were chosen and sealed for their mission, but once born, when the time is right, they will be sealed unto those responsibilities. It is then when they will have their calling and election made sure as I think Orson Pratt said. So these chosen people, have either all been born or are still being born and will, during the seventh seal, be called unto their mission.

Now I personally believe that we are on the seventh seal, so that would mean that they probably have all been born already and that the Lord is preparing them for what they were foreordained to do.

[SkyBird]

Trust me ... we are not in the 7th Seal. D&C 77 makes that clear!

10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (chapter 7) to be accomplished? (This is about the 144000 being set apart)
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:10)

12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:12)
and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:12)
13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:13)

They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:13)

[abelchirino]

Trust me ... we are not in the 7th Seal. D&C 77 makes that clear!

What do you think about Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley's statement on the October 2001 General Conference?

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call” (Joel 2:28–32).

This could (and I want to emphasize could because I don't know) be an announcement of the seventh seal if the fifth seal was opened on 1 AD. The sixth seal would then have been opened on 1001 AD and the seventh on 2001 AD.

[SkyBird]

Trust me ... we are not in the 7th Seal. D&C 77 makes that clear!

What do you think about Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley's statement on the October 2001 General Conference?

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call” (Joel 2:28–32).

This could (and I want to emphasize could because I don't know) be an announcement of the seventh seal if the fifth seal was opened on 1 AD. The sixth seal would then have been opened on 1001 AD and the seventh on 2001 AD.

I think IMO Pres. Hinckley is sharing "his" opinion and I believe he is off... this is clearly a 7th Seal event because Joel states that "in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said." "Mount Zion" is obviously the "New Jerusalem" (America, Jackson County, MO... has not happened yet because it is 7th Seal event) and "in Jerusalem" (Israel) it is really not a place of deliverance yet... because the temple has not been built yet because the "Dome of the Rock" is still in that place. If you read the whole of Joel 2 it is clearly talking about events in the 7 Seal time period just before the Lord returns... IMO

[abelchirino]

I guess we should follow the liberal/democrat/progressive argument and vote as members, whether we believe that we're on the sixth or on the seventh seal. And whatever we decide on, that will be the seal that we're in. :)) =))

It seems to work for politics and many other social issues lol...

[buffalo_girl]

Not like discussed in Revelations where it is an aerial war where a third of men are destroyed; now that is a real war.

Well now, here's something to contemplate...

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Genocide: among other things, the killing of people by a government because of their indelible group membership (race, ethnicity, religion, language).

Politicide: the murder of any person or people by a government because of their politics or for political purposes.

Mass Murder: the indiscriminate killing of any person or people by a government.

Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Among all the democide estimates appearing in this book, some have been revised upward. I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000. And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000. Details here.

I have changed my estimate for colonial democide from 870,000 to an additional 50,000,000. Details here.

Thus, the new world total: old total 1900-1999 = 174,000,000. New World total = 174,000,000 + 38,000,000 (new for China) + 50,000,000 (new for Colonies) = 262,000,000.

Just to give perspective on this incredible murder by government, if all these bodies were laid head to toe, with the average height being 5', then they would circle the earth ten times. Also, this democide murdered 6 times more people than died in combat in all the foreign and internal wars of the century. Finally, given popular estimates of the dead in a major nuclear war, this total democide is as though such a war did occur, but with its dead spread over a century.

This particular study was published in 1999. The author documents war caused deaths in another book published earlier.

The destruction of The LORD's Creation is the dedicated work of Satan by means of employing his mortal worshipers.

Since the year 2000 methods of killing human beings has advanced into a Satanic art form. WAR is being waged upon us without our conscious knowledge and understanding.

The 'formalization' of WAR - as an agreed upon religion by lucifer's adherents - began at Babylon.

Genesis 10
8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel ((later) Babylon), and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

see: Bible Dictionary - BAAL https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baal? ... g&letter=b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baal is by some identified with Bel of Babylon and Zeus of Greece. The word Baal expresses the relation between lord and slave.

In Rabbinical literature, Nimrod is the prototype of a rebellious people, his name being interpreted as "he who made all the people rebellious against God" As he was the first hunter he was consequently the first who introduced the eating of meat by man. He was also the first to make war on other peoples. He is thought to have established “Emperor Worship” and the concept of LAW of Kings.

LOOK UP! I'm sure you have evidence of Revelations 9 & Joel 2 overhead - just like we do in the Northern Hemisphere.

Study JST of Matthew 24: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; watch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come.

47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready.

48 Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.

[SkyBird]

Isn't war a sad thing.? What happened to the principle of "love your neighbor as yourself?" It is obvious the human race is not civilized.

[WarMonger]

War and genocide as you describe have been going on since the beginning when Cain killed Able, as Paul describes the spiritual war (sin) is just a continuation from the pre-existence, it is nothing new.

When the missionaries are withdrawn (hasting just about finished) and the earthquakes start that the continents are rent in half {earthquakes} and full scale nuclear war "Desolation of abomination" is released with the described plagues it will be like nothing the world has seen before, there will be no doubt the 6th seal is opening. The events of the 6th seal are not hidden things but designed as a final testimony all call to the nations to repent, because they did not listen to the servants of God. The angles mentioned in vs92 are not quietly gong about - but "crying with a loud voice" that will be unmistakable and felt and known by all.

D&C 88: 88 And after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.
89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
91 And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people.
92 And angels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the judgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

[Still Learning]

I like your input Abelchirino. I think you could be correct. It just doesn't make sense that everything John says will happen in seal 6 hasn't happened yet and we find ourselves at the very end of that seal. And most agree that Rev is filled with symbolism and yet expect the great earthquake and many other events to pass literally. I think when viewed as a whole(6th seal), we can see some of these things have taken place already. I can't say all of them but many. Personally I think yhe earthquake could represent the spiritual uprising that lead to a break away from the religion of the state that existed as a result of the apostasy. Men receiving a light and inspiration to seek out the truth which lead to Protestantism and eventually the restoration and also establishment of the US. I at least challenge people to try to look atn it that way for fun if nothing else and see if they can match those events. I have some ideas but not certain of anything yet.

Do you other posters believe that all the green grass and 1/3 of trees will actually be burned...or are those things symbolic? Is fire literally mingled with blood or is that a representation of something?

I would love explanation to these questions. I truthfully want to learn more and am open to changing my views. I have read Anthony Larsen trilogy...i have it. He has a compelling argument, but if he is right, I expect dual f yiu fulfillment. ..one literal and one symbolic.

According to Larsen if I recall, the hail and fire is meteorites that carries a red substance as found on Mars from a collision with Venus??? It certainly matches some Old Testament descriptions.

I also don't think Pres Hinckley was giving opinion rather sharing knowledge he had obtained.

Does anyone agree with the symbolism that I see? I don't know where I stand on some other things such as the gulf war being fulfillment of seventh seal events. I want to know if the 6th seal events are fulfilled first...then we can look at seventh seal events.

Abelchirino, if you believe we are in the 7th, would you mind sharing your description of how 6th seal events as explained by John were fulfilled?

[SkyBird]

"a great earthquake" is "a great earthquake" it has no other symbolism but "a great earthquake"... this is consistent throughout scripture, past, present and future.

note: "a great earthquake"

1 IN the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
(New Testament | Matthew 28:1 - 2)

25 ¶ And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
(New Testament | Acts 16:25 - 27)

and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(New Testament | Revelation 6:12 - 14)

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(New Testament | Revelation 11:12 - 14)

[Still Learning]

And hail really has blood too?

[WarMonger]

The hail is from an ice comet that has toxic red chemical!! turning life to blood.

[Cowboy]

Wow,
This has turned into quite a thread.....
This is about as plain and simple as any Gospel principal out there.
Seven seals, seven thousand years. We are in the year 6014.
No overlaps, no skipped days, no calendar differences, no misunderstandings.
To hear someone say: " Trust me, I know...." and then later say: " I think Pres. Hinckley was wrong"...is terrifying!
Read your conference talks and quit misinterpreting scriptures that you cherry pick out of context.
And to think that we are in the fifth seal.... well, that just defies all understanding.
We are in the half hour of silence after the Seventh Seal opened and the woes will start anytime.
Now what is so hard to understand about that?

[SkyBird]

Wow,
This has turned into quite a thread.....
This is about as plain and simple as any Gospel principal out there.
Seven seals, seven thousand years. We are in the year 6014.
No overlaps, no skipped days, no calendar differences, no misunderstandings.
To hear someone say: " Trust me, I know...." and then later say: " I think Pres. Hinckley was wrong"...is terrifying!
Read your conference talks and quit misinterpreting scriptures that you cherry pick out of context.
And to think that we are in the fifth seal.... well, that just defies all understanding.
We are in the half hour of silence after the Seventh Seal opened and the woes will start anytime.
Now what is so hard to understand about that?

boy! you are confusing yourself. That was me that said... "Trust me ... we are not in the 7th Seal" and yes I think Pres. Hinckley was wrong in his interpretation of Joel 2 and the moon turning to blood... Is there something wrong with that? Are we not all entitled to personal interpretation via the Spirit? He never said "thus sayeth the Lord" this is the correct interpretation for this particular scripture... we are all on different levels of understanding and to each level we may both be right. My point is IMO we are in the 6th Seal, last few years of it. We are definitely not in the 7th Seal half hour of silence yet. Didn't you read my post on "a great earthquake" above... it has not happened yet and that is for the 6th Seal which is just about to take place. "Every mountain and island were moved out of their places" has not happened yet (Rev 6:14) nor have "the heaven departed as a scroll."

The 144000 are called and set apart in the 6th Seal as well... and that has not happened yet but will take place right after "a great earthquake" of the 6th Seal. Just read closely these words:

8 Q. What are we to understand by the four angels, spoken of in the 7th chapter and 1st verse of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy; these are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; having power to shut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the regions of darkness.
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev 7 and the 144000) to be accomplished?
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:8 - 10)


We certainly are not in the 5th Seal as you mentioned in your post (maybe that was a typo and you really meant to say the 6th Seal).

[markod]

As the gospel is carried to billions of spiritually hungry souls, miracles will be performed by the hand of the Lord. Missionaries of many nationalities will serve the Lord throughout the earth. New chapels and many more temples will be built to bless the Saints, as has been prophesied regarding premillennial growth of the Church.

Elder Ballard. This was a speech originally given at BYU Idaho April 6th 2012, it was included in last January's Ensign.

[Cowboy]

Wow,
This has turned into quite a thread.....
This is about as plain and simple as any Gospel principal out there.
Seven seals, seven thousand years. We are in the year 6014.
No overlaps, no skipped days, no calendar differences, no misunderstandings.
To hear someone say: " Trust me, I know...." and then later say: " I think Pres. Hinckley was wrong"...is terrifying!
Read your conference talks and quit misinterpreting scriptures that you cherry pick out of context.
And to think that we are in the fifth seal.... well, that just defies all understanding.
We are in the half hour of silence after the Seventh Seal opened and the woes will start anytime.
Now what is so hard to understand about that?

boy! you are confusing yourself. That was me that said... "Trust me ... we are not in the 7th Seal" and yes I think Pres. Hinckley was wrong in his interpretation of Joel 2 and the moon turning to blood... Is there something wrong with that? Are we not all entitled to personal interpretation via the Spirit? He never said "thus sayeth the Lord" this is the correct interpretation for this particular scripture... we are all on different levels of understanding and to each level we may both be right. My point is IMO we are in the 6th Seal, last few years of it. We are definitely not in the 7th Seal half hour of silence yet. Didn't you read my post on "a great earthquake" above... it has not happened yet and that is for the 6th Seal which is just about to take place. "Every mountain and island were moved out of their places" has not happened yet (Rev 6:14) nor have "the heaven departed as a scroll."

The 144000 are called and set apart in the 6th Seal as well... and that has not happened yet but will take place right after "a great earthquake" of the 6th Seal. Just read closely these words:

8 Q. What are we to understand by the four angels, spoken of in the 7th chapter and 1st verse of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy; these are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; having power to shut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the regions of darkness.
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev 7 and the 144000) to be accomplished?
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:8 - 10)


We certainly are not in the 5th Seal as you mentioned in your post (maybe that was a typo and you really meant to say the 6th Seal).

Don't be offended.....
Just saying, when a Prophet of God stands at the podium and says something, I listen. I don't wait for him to say, " Simon says " to lend credence to it. Then to have someone say, " Trust me, and he is wrong "....
No thanks.

[abelchirino]

Abelchirino, if you believe we are in the 7th, would you mind sharing your description of how 6th seal events as explained by John were fulfilled?

I apologize if I made this response too long but I promise its worth it. I will say a little more in a separate comment.

I want to clarify something that I said. SkyBird, I believe like you, that the 7th chapter of Revelations is talking about events that occur during the 6th seal. I believe it because, as you quoted, Joseph Smith gave us that interpretation. Yet my question is, how do we know if maybe these events (in the 7th chapter) are actually happening in Heaven and not on Earth? See, like you I believe that the 144,000 are sealed during the 6th seal but I believe that this either occurred or is occurring in Heaven. Because when John sees that, he is not on Earth, he is in Heaven. That is apparent by the fact that right after witnessing the sealing, he sees a "great multitude" of humans and beasts in Heaven, praising God. Now, by your interpretation, this hasn't happened either. This actually seems, because of the declaration of the angel, could be something that happened after the tribulation since that is exactly what the angel says on v. 14. And the tribulation, according to John, at least the main bulk of it happens during the 7th seal

What I have learned from reading Isaiah, is that when Isaiah is prophesying of the future, he jumps from one point in time to another and back without giving you any actual warning in advance. He's just all over the place. I believe this happens to John, in some degree, during his great revelation. In fact, it happens a lot in D&C as well. Now he has to be witnessing these things in Heaven again, because we read that in the 7th seal, there is a half hour of silence. And many agree that this does not refer to half hour of 30 minutes. That half hour is not an Earthly half hour. It is a Heavenly half hour. Now I read in an institute student manual that whether that half hour is from a 24-hour or a 12-hour day is unknown still.

As to the great earthquake, I believe that this part is literal. Now, I don't know if the general authorities would ever come out and say "see that earthquake that happened there, that was the great earthquake spoken of". But then, when you read that verse in Revelation, all John says is "there was a great earthquake", and that is it. Does he say what he means by "great earthquake"? Does he give us a standard to measure it with? A comparison? Any other detail at all? No. Well heck, there has been many great earthquakes already! Many! Which one could it be? How will we know when it comes? How many people will die from it? How great will be it's destruction? I don't think that with John's description we can pinpoint a specific earthquake and say "that one's it!". So because we can't really do that, then we can't really say that it hasn't happened.

As to the sun and the moon, I'll be more willing to rely on President Gordon B. Hinckley's interpretation than on my own. But that is just my opinion. If he said it was fulfilled, then it was fulfilled. Now he didn't make any mention of a 6th seal, but he did say that it was fulfilled.

As to the heavens being departed as a scroll, and every mountain and island moved out of their places, the kings, the great and the rich hiding and pleading that the rocks and mountains fall on top of them to hide them from the face of the Lord, that is another example of prophecy jumping from one point to another. This is clearly made evident by the 17th verse, "for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?". This is talking about the second coming. This makes reference to the great day of the Lord and that is always the second coming. But this doesn't happen until the 7th seal. So why is John seeing this or talking about it during the opening of the 6th seal? Again, there is no overlapping, it is just that somehow, there is a connection (more than we may be able to tell now from all the scriptures-it may be revealed to us in a later time) between verse 12 and the rest of the chapter. Just as when John sees the altar with incense, and the souls of all the martyrs praying to God. They are asking to know how long they will have to wait for their blood to be avenged and they were told to wait until their fellowservants were all martyred as well. Well that is clearly making reference to those who died during the reformation and the restoration. There again we find a connection between one seal and another (not an overlapping though).

Now something else may help, two quotes that deal with what happens in chapter 7. John sees 4 angels who have power, authority and the mission to pour judgments on the Earth and then he sees another angel telling them to wait. They then ask how long and the other angel tells them to wait until the 144,000 are sealed. Now, if you read the description that we have of these angels, in Revelation 7 and D&C 77, we can see that there is a lot of similarity between these angels and the ones spoken of in D&C 86. D&C 86 tells us that these angels are anxious and eager to unleash the judgments on the Earth and they are told to wait until the wheat is strong enough to withstand the reaping of the tares. The following is a quote from the Church's, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (it is quoting President Woodruff:

In 1894 President Woodruff stated: “God has held the angels of destruction for many years, lest they should reap down the wheat with the tares. But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments. And from this very day they shall be poured out. Calamities and troubles are increasing in the earth, and there is a meaning to these things. Remember this, and reflect upon these matters. If you do your duty, and I do my duty, we’ll have protection, and shall pass through the afflictions in peace and in safety.” (Young Women’s Journal, Aug. 1894, pp. 512–13.)

I will not explain this quote, I will let President Joseph Fielding Smith explain it (again from the same manual):

President Joseph Fielding Smith, who was present when President Woodruff talked about these angels at the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple (see Signs of the Times, pp. 112–13), recorded the following:

“One day while I was sitting in the presence of my father [President Joseph F. Smith] back about 1908 or 9, somewhere in there, I called attention to these statements of President Woodruff, and I said I would like to go over the records from the time of the dedication of the Temple up until now and see what we can find in regard to calamities, destructions, plagues; and he encouraged me to do it, and so I did. So I went over the newspapers and over the magazines and jotted down year by year the destructions, the commotions among men, everything in the nature of a calamity, and to my great astonishment each year they increased, and they have been increasing ever since I quit making that record. I was greatly astonished by it; and when I called the attention of one of my neighbors to it, he almost got angry at me and he said, ‘Oh, well, we have got better facilities now for discovering these things. I don’t believe it.’ And he is a member of the Church, too, but seemed to lack faith in these predictions. …

“This will be astonishing to you, I am sure, and I copied this from the [Literary] Digest of January 20, 1934.

“‘Two scientists charting the European record find that the indexed number of Wars rose from 2.678 in the twelfth to 13,735.98 in the twentieth century.

“‘Does war tend to decline as nations become more civilized? Many philosophers have said so; but now two sociologists of Harvard University have turned the cold and dispassionate eye of science upon the question, and have decided that future wars, fiercer than any ever fought before, apparently can be avoided only by a miracle. Far from declining, wars increase in number and intensity as nations progress, and the worst flareup since the dawn of history has occurred in our own century.’

“‘Now, of course, he had reference to the war from 1914 to 1918.

“‘These scientists are Professor Pitirim A. Sorokin, chairman of the Department of Sociology at Harvard, and Nicholas N. Golovin, formerly Lieutenant-General in the Imperial Russian army. They have reached their conclusions through a study of all the wars known to have taken place in Europe since Greece and the Western Roman Empire over a period of more than 2,400 years—from 500 B.C. to 1925 A.D. During this period in Greece, Rome, Central Europe, Germany, Italy, France, Great Britain, Spain, and the Netherlands and Russia, there occurred 902 wars (not battles).

“‘Each was studied from five points of view, the duration of the war, the size of the fighting force, the number of casualties, including killed and wounded, the number of countries involved, and the proportion of the combatants to the total population of the belligerent nations.

“‘From these five “variables” a total indexed number was computed for each war, in order that they might be reasonably expressed in terms of a common denominator.’

“Now, that’s the quotation. Then [in 1936] I made these remarks.

“Out of this study these scientists declare that they have discovered that war has tended to increase over all Europe in the late centuries. They say they have learned that in these countries war grew from 2.678 in the twelfth century to 13,735.98 in the first twenty-five years of the twentieth century. Their tables show the growth by centuries. Up to the seventeenth century the wars were comparatively insignificant. Beginning with that century war increased during the eighteenth, with a lull in the nineteenth, yet in that century they were more than 100 times greater than in medieval times.

“‘These men conclude that “all commendable hopes that war will disappear in the near future are based on nothing more substantial than hope of a belief in miracles.”’

“And then I made this prediction:

“‘If prophecy is to be fulfilled, there awaits the world a conflict more dreadful than any the world has yet seen.’ (Progress of Man, pp. 402–404.)

“Now I want to make some comments in regard to the statement by President Woodruff and this parable.

“The Lord said that the sending forth of these angels was to be at the end of the harvest, and the harvest is the end of the world. Now, that ought to cause us some very serious reflections. And the angels have been pleading, as I have read it to you, before the Lord to be sent on their mission. Until 1893 the Lord said to them no, and then He set them loose. According to the revelation of President Woodruff, the Lord sent them out on that mission.

“What do we gather out of that? That we are at the time of the end. This is the time of the harvest. This is the time spoken of which is called the end of the world.” (Signs of the Times, pp. 116–21.)

This means then, that probably, the 144,000 have already been chosen. Now where and when were they chosen. They were chosen in heaven, during the 6th seal. This is made evident from the fact that their preaching isn't made mention of until the 7th seal is opened. So these 144,000 were born at the end of the 6th seal (maybe even at the beginning of the seventh (their birth is not made mentioned of, only their selection in heaven during the 6th seal and their preaching during the 7th). This then many concur with what President Gordon B. Hinckley says. Prophecy is rarely in chronological order

This then could bring some light to statement made by President Eyring during conference, when, while talking about natural disasters, he said that as horrible as they were, they were only part of the beginning of what was to come. Plus when you see the events around the world, dealing with politics and affairs between nations, it gives the impression that certain prophecies of the 7th seal are close to being fulfilled.

[abelchirino]

Now GBH said that Joel was fulfilled already. There's two things to that prophecy. The sun will be turned in blackness and the moon into blood. I believe that President Hinckley chose his words carefully. He could have just spoke of the dreams and revelation which Joel said would be poured upon God's people and it would have been easy to believe him.

He could have just spoken of signs in the Heavens, and blood, fire and pillars of smoke in the earth and it would have been very easy for us all to believe. Specially since, I believe it was President Joseph Fielding Smith said that airplanes, space stations and space rockets are all part of the signs in the Heavens.

But he made sure that he included the part of the sun and the moon. Now, as to how these two signs were fulfilled, I do not know. All I know is that they were fulfilled because President Hinckley said so. Reading carefully though, it only says that the sun "shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood". It never says anything about them staying like that. IT could be that a full solar and lunar eclipse could be a sign of the times but it never makes any mention of perpetual blackness and blood. You can see this from the fact that other verses, in the D&C and the Bible speak of what will happen during the Second Coming. It says that the stars, and the Sun and the Moon will all be ashamed and hide their light. And that the day will be ashamed of giving its light when Christ makes His glorious appearance with all the hosts of angels. Now this could be referring to two things. For example, at night we see the stars because everything is dark and the moon does not give much light. But when the Sun rises, all the stars disappear. Now they're not really gone, it is just that the light of the Sun is so bright, in comparison to that of the stars, that it seems to us like they disappear. Something similar could happen during the Second Coming.

It will be so glorious and bright that everything else to us will seem as if it disappears. Yet there could be another interpretation. Brigham Young spoke about it. When the Earth was created, and Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, the Earth was located in the center of the galaxy. But when they fell, the earth fell into this Solar System in which we are in. There are some verses that talk about stars falling like the leaves of a fig tree. From what I've read, when the leaves fall, most of them fall all at once in unison. The prophets in vision saw the movement of the stars similar to how the fig leaves look when they fall. Isaiah said that the Earth shall be removed out of her placed and shall move like a chased roe (meaning really fast). Brigham Young then said that when the time comes, which may be at, or around the Second Coming, the Earth will return to the place in which it was created. That is, I don't know, how many light years away. This means that the Earth will move at a speed that we cannot even comprehend. At this speed then, the stars will seem as if they are falling on the Earth, and they will look like fig leaves when they fall. It will be at this time then when the Sun and the Moon will appear to have disappeared, or be darkened, but it will be that we have just left their presence and therefore cannot see them anymore.

Now as to the last part of the prophecy which President Hinckley quoted, that has been partly fulfilled. I believe we can still see greater fulfillment later on but it has been fulfilled to some degree. The Jews been delivered miraculously many times already. The early members of the Church fled persecution and found safety in Mount Zion, which for later day purposes could also be the Rocky Mountains of Utah. There has been a great transformation in the land of the Jews, in the middle east, and the desert that was populated by the Mormons in the west. Many places do not look like inhabitable deserts anymore. Both lands have blossomed and prospered greatly. Salt Lake was recently labeled as the best city to live in, in the US (For many reasons).

[Carlos]

I think IMO Pres. Hinckley is sharing "his" opinion and I believe he is off... this is clearly a 7th Seal event because Joel states that "in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said." "Mount Zion" is obviously the "New Jerusalem" (America, Jackson County, MO... has not happened yet because it is 7th Seal event) and "in Jerusalem" (Israel) it is really not a place of deliverance yet... because the temple has not been built yet because the "Dome of the Rock" is still in that place. If you read the whole of Joel 2 it is clearly talking about events in the 7 Seal time period just before the Lord returns... IMO

If Pres Hinckley was just sharing his opinion, then I guess Peter was too when he declared in Acts 2:
16 But this is [speaking in tongues] that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So now we have two prophets just expressing their opinions. Obviously they don't have the enlightenment of Skybird...... Or maybe Skybird doesn't have the enlightment of Peter and Hinckley???

Hinckley's quote of Joel's prophecy was prefaced with this statement:
"The era in which we live is the fulness of times spoken of in the scriptures, when God has brought together all of the elements of previous dispensations. From the day that He and His Beloved Son manifested themselves to the boy Joseph, there has been a tremendous cascade of enlightenment poured out upon the world. The hearts of men have turned to their fathers in fulfillment of the words of Malachi. The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:"
Hinckley invokes the fullness of times, the restoration of the knowledge of previous dispensations, the dispensation of enlightenment since Joseph Smith, and the restoration of the Priesthood as Malachi prophesied (DC 2). Then he declared Joel fulfilled.
Skybird invokes the 7th seal and declares Joel not fulfilled.

If Joel is a literal prophecy then Skybird may have a point, but I think Peter and Hinckley probably had an insight into prophecy fulfilment which included much more than the literal interpretation of the words.
Then we must ask ourselves, What can these symbols mean? (heavens, earth, sun, moon, blood, fire, pillars of smoke, mount zion, Jerusalem).
The easy route is to declare literalness then wait for the obvious elusive fulfillment. Two prophets already declared fulfillment! Study, meditation, and an open mind could be the key to understanding their prophetic insight.

[SkyBird]

Wow,


Don't be offended.....
Just saying, when a Prophet of God stands at the podium and says something, I listen. I don't wait for him to say, " Simon says " to lend credence to it. Then to have someone say, " Trust me, and he is wrong "....
No thanks.

Don't worry... I am never offended. I realize the "truth" never changes but is constant and eternal. All we have is opinions about these things down here on earth... and it is fun to discuss them, to see other points of view. thanks for sharing yours.

[SkyBird]

I think IMO Pres. Hinckley is sharing "his" opinion and I believe he is off... this is clearly a 7th Seal event because Joel states that "in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said." "Mount Zion" is obviously the "New Jerusalem" (America, Jackson County, MO... has not happened yet because it is 7th Seal event) and "in Jerusalem" (Israel) it is really not a place of deliverance yet... because the temple has not been built yet because the "Dome of the Rock" is still in that place. If you read the whole of Joel 2 it is clearly talking about events in the 7 Seal time period just before the Lord returns... IMO

If Pres Hinckley was just sharing his opinion, then I guess Peter was too when he declared in Acts 2:
16 But this is [speaking in tongues] that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So now we have two prophets just expressing their opinions. Obviously they don't have the enlightenment of Skybird...... Or maybe Skybird doesn't have the enlightment of Peter and Hinckley???

Hinckley's quote of Joel's prophecy was prefaced with this statement:
"The era in which we live is the fulness of times spoken of in the scriptures, when God has brought together all of the elements of previous dispensations. From the day that He and His Beloved Son manifested themselves to the boy Joseph, there has been a tremendous cascade of enlightenment poured out upon the world. The hearts of men have turned to their fathers in fulfillment of the words of Malachi. The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:"
Hinckley invokes the fullness of times, the restoration of the knowledge of previous dispensations, the dispensation of enlightenment since Joseph Smith, and the restoration of the Priesthood as Malachi prophesied (DC 2). Then he declared Joel fulfilled.
Skybird invokes the 7th seal and declares Joel not fulfilled.

If Joel is a literal prophecy then Skybird may have a point, but I think Peter and Hinckley probably had an insight into prophecy fulfilment which included much more than the literal interpretation of the words.
Then we must ask ourselves, What can these symbols mean? (heavens, earth, sun, moon, blood, fire, pillars of smoke, mount zion, Jerusalem).
The easy route is to declare literalness then wait for the obvious elusive fulfillment. Two prophets already declared fulfillment! Study, meditation, and an open mind could be the key to understanding their prophetic insight.

It's okay to disagree... we learn by sharing ideas and if the Spirit rested upon Hinckley and he said Joel's prophecy is fulfilled then it is fulfilled... what he didn't say is "how many times is the moon going to turn to blood and the sun darkened before the Lord comes. I would venture to say "many times" in both the 6th and 7th seals. So to pick one "red moon" or "blood moon" out of a talk from Pres. Hinckley and say the 6th Seal is fulfilled is a poor reference to Revelations 6: 12

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(New Testament | Revelation 6:12)

There is a lot more to say and happen in Revelations 6: 12-17 that has not happened yet IMO. IMO is all we have to work with here in mortality. I have not received a "white stone" or "urim" to settle these ideas once and for all. If you were to ask the 12 separately and First Presidency if we are living in the 6th or 7th Seal, I "bet" most if not all would say we are in the latter end of the 6th Seal. But that is just my opinion.

[shadow]

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(New Testament | Revelation 6:12)

Accordingly, I suppose, we must still be in the 5th seal because the big earthquake happens when the 6th seal is opened, not when it closes.
My opinion is the same as President Hinckley's, that these things have come to pass already.

[keep the faith]

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(New Testament | Revelation 6:12)

Accordingly, I suppose, we must still be in the 5th seal because the big earthquake happens when the 6th seal is opened, not when it closes.
My opinion is the same as President Hinckley's, that these things have come to pass already.

I always thought that same thing G. I'm glad someone else here is as smart as me. :o)

[Blake Eccles]

Regardless of which seal we are currently in, it is imperative for us to prepare spiritually and temporally.

[buffalo_girl]

I'll repeat a wise observation made by a Bismarck, ND Temple President's wife awhile back:

"Each of us is only our own death away from the Second Coming."