Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

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Carlos
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Carlos »

SkyBird wrote:
Carlos wrote: To me the Joel prophecy has nothing to do with the 6th/7th seal debate. Peter saw the elements of Joel's fulfillment almost 2000 years ago, Hinckley also saw the elements of Joel's fulfillment in the events of the restoration.
I am concerned that people who have no clue as to what Joel was prophesying insist on knowing precisely what Revelations is about. They deny that Hinckley knew what he was declaring and then go on to explain the complexities of Rev with overlap and literal hogwash.
I think the closest author to understanding "the language of the Jews" besides John the Revelator and Joseph Smith is Anthony Larson (LDS Author) of "The Plainest Book: Revelation" not available .. out of print
http://www.mormonprophecy.com/?page_id=89" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Excellent book describing the imagery and symbolism of the Book of Revelation... best I have seen anywhere! My favorite was "Opening the 7th Seal" by Draper. A great overview of what lots of scholars have thought over the centuries.

According to Reed C. Durham
https://www.lds.org/new-era/1973/05/rev ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We are living in the latter part of the 6th Seal.
How does Larson explain what Peter and GBHinckley said about Joel 2? Does he understand fulfilled prophecy enough to tell us what unfulfilled prophecy is about? Does Larson opine that any part of the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17) has been fulfilled? Just curious.

Reed C. Durham was right...in 1973 we were in the latter part of the 6th seal. That was 28 years before 2001. How is that part of the mix? :D

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SkyBird
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by SkyBird »

Carlos wrote:
SkyBird wrote:
Carlos wrote: To me the Joel prophecy has nothing to do with the 6th/7th seal debate. Peter saw the elements of Joel's fulfillment almost 2000 years ago, Hinckley also saw the elements of Joel's fulfillment in the events of the restoration.
I am concerned that people who have no clue as to what Joel was prophesying insist on knowing precisely what Revelations is about. They deny that Hinckley knew what he was declaring and then go on to explain the complexities of Rev with overlap and literal hogwash.
I think the closest author to understanding "the language of the Jews" besides John the Revelator and Joseph Smith is Anthony Larson (LDS Author) of "The Plainest Book: Revelation" not available .. out of print
http://www.mormonprophecy.com/?page_id=89" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Excellent book describing the imagery and symbolism of the Book of Revelation... best I have seen anywhere! My favorite was "Opening the 7th Seal" by Draper. A great overview of what lots of scholars have thought over the centuries.

According to Reed C. Durham
https://www.lds.org/new-era/1973/05/rev ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We are living in the latter part of the 6th Seal.
How does Larson explain what Peter and GBHinckley said about Joel 2? Does he understand fulfilled prophecy enough to tell us what unfulfilled prophecy is about? Does Larson opine that any part of the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17) has been fulfilled? Just curious.

Reed C. Durham was right...in 1973 we were in the latter part of the 6th seal. That was 28 years before 2001. How is that part of the mix? :D
I know Draper puts us in the 6th Seal as well... I took a class from him at the Y during "Education Week" a few years back. Ever since the "restoration" (Joseph Smith) we have been in the 6th Seal. As I mentioned before, at the "opening" of each seal does not mean the event spoken of by John is the "beginning" of day one of that seal. They are just events that John wants us to understand.

Bambi
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Bambi »

abelchirino writes:

"See, like you I believe that the 144,000 are sealed during the 6th seal but I believe that this either occurred or is occurring in Heaven. Because when John sees that, he is not on Earth, he is in Heaven. That is apparent by the fact that right after witnessing the sealing, he sees a "great multitude" of humans and beasts in Heaven, praising God."

I read Rev. 7 a number of times. I never see a word that confirms that the scene transpires in heaven. Can you please enlighten
me and show me that part, somehow I must be blind.

"But then, when you read that verse in Revelation, all John says is "there was a great earthquake", and that is it."
Mmmh - you see things that I don't and then I see things that you don't - read again :)


--------------------------------------------------------

Talking about the 7th seal being opened -
why didn't President Hinkley just simply state "Brothers and sisters, the seventh seal has been opened."
Why would none of the apostles since 2001 ever state something like "...now that the seventh seal has
been opened..."?
Because it didn't happen. No great earthquake or anything of the things mentioned in Rev. 6/7 happened.
Not that I have been told about it by anybody with authority.

The main reason for this misunderstanding comes from the King James version of the bible
using the Ussher "creation date" of 4004 BC which is simply wrong.

As you can see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_creation#Masoretic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there are many who have tried to come up with the correct date. They might all be wrong
but since I believe we're close to the end of the sixth seal my guess is that Theodore Bibliander
might be the one who will be right or who got closest.
Also the "creation date" is not a creation date, but rather counting since the birth or fall of Adam.
When we talk about the age of Adam I don't know if those years include the "time" before the fall.
What time would that have been anyway?

abelchirino
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Posts: 526

Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by abelchirino »

Bambi wrote:abelchirino writes:

"See, like you I believe that the 144,000 are sealed during the 6th seal but I believe that this either occurred or is occurring in Heaven. Because when John sees that, he is not on Earth, he is in Heaven. That is apparent by the fact that right after witnessing the sealing, he sees a "great multitude" of humans and beasts in Heaven, praising God."

I read Rev. 7 a number of times. I never see a word that confirms that the scene transpires in heaven. Can you please enlighten
me and show me that part, somehow I must be blind.

"But then, when you read that verse in Revelation, all John says is "there was a great earthquake", and that is it."
Mmmh - you see things that I don't and then I see things that you don't - read again :)


--------------------------------------------------------

Talking about the 7th seal being opened -
why didn't President Hinkley just simply state "Brothers and sisters, the seventh seal has been opened."
Why would none of the apostles since 2001 ever state something like "...now that the seventh seal has
been opened..."?
Because it didn't happen. No great earthquake or anything of the things mentioned in Rev. 6/7 happened.
Not that I have been told about it by anybody with authority.

The main reason for this misunderstanding comes from the King James version of the bible
using the Ussher "creation date" of 4004 BC which is simply wrong.

As you can see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_creation#Masoretic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there are many who have tried to come up with the correct date. They might all be wrong
but since I believe we're close to the end of the sixth seal my guess is that Theodore Bibliander
might be the one who will be right or who got closest.
Also the "creation date" is not a creation date, but rather counting since the birth or fall of Adam.
When we talk about the age of Adam I don't know if those years include the "time" before the fall.
What time would that have been anyway?
Well first of all, they don't really have to announce things to us as you have suggested it. The Church has rarely been that plain. If you're waiting for the General Authorities to announce every little single thing (or when we cross into the 7th seal) then I don't know what to say to you. Many things have been fulfilled and they haven't come out and given a church statement on it. They've spoken about many things but even then, they are not always really plain. That is why sometimes you have to study different statements in order to get a clearer and bigger picture.

Just as it happened when the sign of Christ's death was given to the nephites, you don't read about Nephi the prophet giving them an announcement that the prophecy had been fulfilled. Instead you read,
And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place. And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
The General Authorities are not responsible for our personal preparation neither are they responsible to watch for us in every thing that has ever been prophesied. Jesus himself tells US (not our General Authorities)
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
.

I don't know if you read all my previous comments, I actually addressed some of the points you raised.

SkyBird raised a good point, John is shown and reveals things that pertain to each seal (1000 year period) but it doesn't necessarily mean that they occurred right after the seal was opened (meaning the beginning of the 1000 year period). That point is obvious by what is revealed to us during the 1st 1000 year period that John sees. Many General Authorities have agreed that the rider that he saw was Enoch riding victoriously as he established Zion on Earth. Obviously, this did not happen during the beginning of the 1st 1000 year period.

When you read in lds.ord, in many ensign articles and church manuals, you find that the Church agrees that the Book of Revelation is divided into two parts. The first part is composed of chapters 1-3, the second part is the rest of the book. The first part deals with things pertaining to John's time. The second and most important part is pertaining to things which are in John's distant future (meaning the last days).

The Book of Revelation is a bit confusing for certain reasons. One is that, first of all, it isn't all in chronological order. Like prophecy in almost anywhere else in scripture, it jumps around. Another thing that makes this prophecy difficult is the symbolism. It has made many believe that The Book of Revelation is all symbolic. It isn't, prophecy is always literal. There are a lot of symbols but they are all attached or connected to literal things. And the third reason why the book can be difficult is because John is seeing things that are happening both in Heaven and on Earth.

So now I come to the first point you raised.

The 4th chapter starts with this:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
This is the introduction to the great revelation he receives. It is obvious from everything that he sees, that while he is seeing everything, he is in Heaven himself. Some of the things that he sees are occurring in Heaven and others are occurring on Earth.

Chapter 4
He sees the one that sits upon the throne and describes Him (again in Heaven).
He sees 24 elders that belong to the 7 churches, and the 7 servants who are in charge of those churches standing around the throne (again in heaven).
He sees 4 beasts, which many prophets have said represent all the different animals/insects/creatures that have been created by God, throughout all the worlds, praising the One upon the throne (again in Heaven).

Chapter 5
He sees the One upon the throne carrying a book with 7 seals and an angel asking who is worthy to open it (again in Heaven). Now some ensign articles and church manuals suggest that this book is symbolic but represents a literal, tangible thing which Joseph revealed to us, the 7000 years of earthly existence after the fall of Adam.
John then weeps over the fact that no one was found worthy enough to open except for, according to one of the 24 elders, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and Root of David who had prevailed (again in Heaven). Now the Root we know is Jesus Christ according to Revelation 22:16.
He then sees a slain lamb with 12 servants, which represents Christ with the 12 apostles I suppose, go to the One in the throne and take the book (again in Heaven).
He sees all the servants, the many beasts and thousands and thousands of angels praising the Lamb for His sacrifice (again in Heaven).

Chapter 6
He sees the Lamb opening the seals and sees events that are representative to each of the 1000 years that each seal represents (again, he has not left Heaven). We know this because as each seal is opened, someone in Heaven asks John to "come and see". Surely this must point out how obvious it is that he was in Heaven and seeing things in Heaven and on Earth.
Every event that he is shown is occurring on the Earth until we get to the 5th seal. He sees something that deals with both Heaven and Earth. He sees an altar and the souls of all those who had died, and would still die as martyrs praying and asking how long they should wait till their deaths would be avenged. They are told to wait until the other "fellowservants" are killed as well. This is happening both in Heaven and on Earth.
He then sees the 6th seal being opened (again in Heaven). He is shown the following:
-A great earthquake
-Sun becoming black
-Moon becoming as blood.
-Stars of Heaven falling unto Earth as untimely figs are cast when the wind shakes.
-Heaven opening as a scroll.
-Every mountain and Island moved out of their places.
-Kings, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondmen and every free man hiding and pleading for mountains and rocks to fall upon them to hide them from the face of of the One that sits upon the throne and from the anger of the Lamb.

Now I will break my statement into two parts. First of, v. 12 says,
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood
. Unless your Bible is different than mine, but it says nothing more about that earthquake other than it was great. As a matter of fact, in chapter 11 and chapter 16, it speaks of 2 other great earthquakes and it gives further detail about those than about this one. It just says it will be great. Again I ask, does he say how great it will be? Does he give us a way to measure how great it will be? Does he tell us how many people will die and what kind of destruction it will bring? Does it compare it to anything else? He doesn't, he just says that it will be great. For the other 2 that he speaks of, he does give us things by which we could easily recognize them but not for this one. So because we do not have any other description of it other than the fact that it was, or would be great, then you can't say that it hasn't happened. Again I repeat, there has been many great earthquakes already, you can't rule anyone of them out. Again, as to the Sun and the Moon, he never says that after the Sun turns black and the Moon turns as blood that they will stay like that. It just says that one will turn black and one will turn red. Again, since this is all that was said about them by John, then we can't rule out the possibility that it hasn't happened. Other prophecies speak of the Sun, the Moon and the Stars hiding their face and becoming dark. But this speaks of another totally different prophecy. They speak of the time when the Earth will return to its original place in the cosmos, and by doing so, the Sun, the Moon and those stars will not be visible to us. It could also refer to the light and glory that will accompany the Savior in His Second Coming which will be so bright that it will completely overpower the light that we receive from the Sun, the Moon and the Stars that we will not see them. It will appear to us as thought they are hiding their faces. But this prophecy in v. 12 only says that they will turn black and red, not that they will stay black and red. That has happened many times already so it could be possible that it has been fulfilled. Also, Gordon B. Hinckley said that a prophecy which gives the exact same details has already been fulfilled.

Now v. 13-17 proof what I have said before. Prophecy often jumps around. You can also find that on lds.org, ensign articles and Church manuals. You have to take these verses in context. They speak of events which will occur immediately before the second coming. This is evident by the last v. in this chapter. The great day of the Lord is always speaking of the day in which Christ comes. That happened during the 7th seal. Also, it doesn't make any sense that these events would transpire during the 6th seal because it would make all of the events that are spoken of during the 7th seal completely irrelevant, contradictory and wrong. The opening of the Heavens as a scroll is describing the scene of the second coming. The righteous will be taken to the clouds to receive the Savior while the Earth is being cleansed. During this time also is when the Earth will travel to its original location in the universe and will make the Stars appears as if they are falling unto the Earth since we will be traveling among and through the Stars. Notice how the people are trying to hide themselves from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the anger of the Lamb. This is all 7th seal. Except for some reason, either the Lord decided that he should interject this at this moment of John's revelation or John decided to do so himself (it really doesn't matter).

Chapter 7
John is again shown things of the 6th seal (again, this is still going on in Heaven since we haven't been told any different).
He sees 4 angels holding the power to hurt the Earth.
He sees that another angel approaches them and tells them to not hurt the Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Again, John is still in Heaven during all of this and it is in Heaven that he says that
[he hears] the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
Also on a side note, read my previous comments in which I quote Wilford Woodruff and Joseph Fielding Smith saying that the 4 angels have already been released. Meaning that they have started to hurt the Earth already. Meaning that the 144,000 have already been sealed. Now where were they sealed? The next v.'s give us the answer.
He sees the 4 beasts, the elders and thousands and thousands of the righteous singing and praising God. Now this has to be in Heaven because before then, all of these were seen by John in Heaven. This is an event that is occurring in Heaven. Then one of the elders teaches John something:
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
First of all, the great tribulation is the one that happens during the 7th seal. So he is seeing something that occurs during the 7th seal. But I thought that we were still in the 6th seal? Again this is another example that prophecy jumps around. For some reason, Christ or John felt that it was necessary to interject this. He is seeing all of those that have come out of the Great Tribulation singing and praising God and Christ. And in the last 2 verses he sees other blessings that these will receive. So this doesn't only show that prophecy jumps around, that not all of the events that are written in these 2 chapters pertain to the 6th seal, but that when John sees the sealing of the 144,000, he is witnessing this in Heaven. Now their sealing and ordination is literal, but the first part of it occurred in Heaven (at least this part). Just as all the holy prophets and apostles, and all those who have received the priesthood, or any calling in the Church and the gospel were ordained to do so before being born. This is part of Church doctrine. It isn't something completely new or different that anything the Church has ever taught. Another evidence is that fact that you don't hear about the 144,000 until the 14th chapter:
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
Here John specifically tells us that he sees the 144,000 upon Mount Sion which we know is America. Before he doesn't tell us that. Plus, the 14th chapter is part of the 7th seal. We also read that they are virgins. This should suggest that these people are young at the time that they are called to go among the world to preach the gospel one last time. It also says that when this happens that they will be redeemed from the Earth (something that again is not mentioned in chapter 7). Also we know that the actual preaching of the 144,000 has to occur during the 7th seal because we know that 12,000 of those will be from the Tribe of Judah. Yet the Tribe of Judah is not converted unto Christ and unto his restored gospel until the 7th seal.

Joseph Smith was right, this book is very simple once we understand all the keys and use the other books of scripture and modern revelation.

Bambi
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Bambi »

Hi abelchirino,

you did a lot of writing and deal with way more than I was questioning.
You collected what you see as evidence for your case - thank you for your effort.

You state a ton of well known facts (that are not disputed). But stating a number
of given facts does not make an interpretation more true that is mingled among
the facts, right?
Every event that he is shown is occurring on the Earth until we get to the 5th seal. He sees something that deals with both Heaven and Earth. He sees an altar and the souls of all those who had died ... This is happening both in Heaven and on Earth.
The "souls" of the fifth seal are seen by John "under the altar". Where is that place? Since the "souls" spoken about are dead they are most likely in spirit world doing what they are told by Christ - missionary work. The spirit world is not in heaven but "here" - I assume you know that.

-Heaven opening as a scroll.
???????????????????????????
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together
Unless your Bible is different than mine, but it says nothing more about that earthquake other than it was great.
I don't talk a lot about these things. There are not many people around where I live that either a) care or b) have knowledge
about revelations. None to be precise. I have a few bibles that are different than yours but of course we use the KJ bible with
the JST added. For our case it doesn't matter anyway.
We both agree that we are still in the sixth seal but as you have seen there are quite a few people around that totally disagree
with us. Which proves how easy it is to be members of the same church but be of very different opinion. Sometimes that troubles
me cause we're told to be one and supposed to have the same spirit with us, but then again - we're just little children.
I read verses 12 to 17 as describing a chain of events - connected. The dislocation of mountains and islands have to do
with the earthquake - it is caused by the same event.
Could it be possible that there is some truth to that? Btw - I'm not out to convince you - just sharing my view.
Again I ask, does he say how great it will be? Does he give us a way to measure how great it will be?
It will be an event that is so big that it will bring people to the conviction that judgement day has come.
It simply didn't happen - not even close - it is
SUPERBIG
But this speaks of another totally different prophecy.
You are entitled to your views - as I am to mine.
They speak of the time when the Earth will return to its original place in the cosmos, and by doing so, the Sun, the Moon and those stars will not be visible to us.
So God is bringing all the sinners to Kolob and he shows that to John after the sixth seal is opened? It does not fit and it does not
make no sense.
Again:
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together
So heaven departed and all the bright stars (Kolob & friends) are not seen even though we just came back in their
presence.
Now v. 13-17 proof what I have said before. Prophecy often jumps around.
You have everything jump just as much just to please your view.
They speak of events which will occur immediately before the second coming. This is evident by the last v. in this chapter. The great day of the Lord is always speaking of the day in which Christ comes.
This is what I would call your major mistake. John tells us what people on earth will think/say not what God says.

Sealing in heaven? Now it gets really confused. The church does not believe in sealings done in heaven - that's why we have temples.
ordained to do so before being born
Being (pre)ordained is simply not sealed.

Ok I guess we won't agree. Don't put any more effort into trying to convince me - there is just no point. I'd rather take this occasion to
invite those who see things similar as I described them to work on a refined scenario up to the opening of the seventh seal.
I will open a thread for that but not today.

abelchirino - you are great guy - you ponder the mysteries of the kingdom - not many people do -
I look foreward to the day we meet (we both know we will, right?)
Then we'll know for sure. Maybe we are both wrong? That would be funny (somehow).
:)

Stargater53
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Stargater53 »

As far as I know, the beginning of the seventh seal will be preceded by the "sixth seal earthquake." This quake will most likely be centered in and around what we call the "Holy Land." Many think it will be worldwide, but I believe that the authors of scripture tend to be more focused on the lands of their ministration. Thus, it may happen in Jerusalem and it may topple the Dome of the Rock and its nearby mosque, allowing for the inevitable building of the temple.

Following this earthquake there will be a half hour of silence. Then things begin to wind up.

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

The gathering of the 10 lost tribes is literal event - that will be more stunning than Moses crossing the sea D&C110!! Article of faith - literal event and keys were given to modern day prophets, occurring on the earth. It is delusional thinking it will occur in heaven.

Baptism and endowment are earthly ordinances - only resurrected beings could be sealed in heavenly temple, and resurrected beings don’t need seal of protection.

i.e. Zion Jackson County will be established the temple built and the 10 lost tribes will return with their scriptures to receive their blessing in the temple (Zion Jackson County) - then the calling of 12,000 from each tribe and sealing in the forehead in the earthly temple.
All 6th seal events, when we have the words of the 10 lost tribes you can be assured the 6th seal is about to end.
The fact we are discussing the great earthquake means it has not happened yet, we are told by many later day prophets and apostles that what has happened to-date is just a taste of what is to come. The missionaries will be withdrawn prior to the earthquake and starting of the 6th seal events. D&C88.

2 Nephi 29: 13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
 14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

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Cowboy
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Cowboy »

The events are correct, all literal.
We shouldn't get Temple sealings mixed up with the 144,000. Totally different.
The mistake being made is trying to view the seals are event based. They are time based and fixed.
Different events happen in different seals but the timing is set. 1000 years per seal x 7.
We are in the year 6014. Half hour of silence before the woes, which is actually " about " a half hour....
So we are twenty minutes into it. That means "about a half hour " could be anytime now.
Also think about the 8.0 magnitude earthquake in Alaska yesterday..... hardly anyone noticed.
The earthquake the Lord is talking about will literally change the face of the land. A bit more than an 8 or 9....

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

The start if the big earthquakes are 6th seal events - the 6th seal related events are all still to occur

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Cowboy
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Cowboy »

Sorry WarMonger,
We agree on the events but not the timing...I think you missed those events, ha ha
THEY WERE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( just teasing, )

Charles7
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Charles7 »

#1. According to OUR calendar, when will the seventh seal be opened, and the half-hour of silence begins in heaven?

Until 1582 A.D. our calendar was not at all accurate, but Pope Gregory employed a group of mathematicians and astronomers to restructure the calendar. They set up the new calendar so that it was in perfect harmony or calibration with the sun. To make it completely accurate they had to add one day every four years and that is how we got our “leap year.”

But even with all that restructuring, how are we certain that it is completely accurate? The best answer to that question is in the Doctrine and Covenants. On two occasions the Lord used the Gregorian calendar in such a way that it seemed to clearly imply his approval of it.

In Section 20 the Lord said he wanted the Church established on the sixth day of April because it would be “one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh.” 16

In the very next section we are told the Church was set up by Joseph Smith under the guidance of the Holy Ghost and then it says:

“Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.” 17

So if our calendar is accurate and apparently approved by the Lord, there is no question about the date of the opening of the seventh seal and the half hour of silence in heaven. It will commence in the year 2000 AD .

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Cowboy
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Cowboy »

Perfect!!!!!!
April 6th to be exact,

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durangout
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by durangout »

WarMonger wrote:The gathering of the 10 lost tribes is literal event - that will be more stunning than Moses crossing the sea D&C110!! Article of faith - literal event and keys were given to modern day prophets, occurring on the earth. It is delusional thinking it will occur in heaven.

Baptism and endowment are earthly ordinances - only resurrected beings could be sealed in heavenly temple, and resurrected beings don’t need seal of protection.

i.e. Zion Jackson County will be established the temple built and the 10 lost tribes will return with their scriptures to receive their blessing in the temple (Zion Jackson County) - then the calling of 12,000 from each tribe and sealing in the forehead in the earthly temple.
All 6th seal events, when we have the words of the 10 lost tribes you can be assured the 6th seal is about to end.
The fact we are discussing the great earthquake means it has not happened yet, we are told by many later day prophets and apostles that what has happened to-date is just a taste of what is to come. The missionaries will be withdrawn prior to the earthquake and starting of the 6th seal events. D&C88.

2 Nephi 29: 13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
 14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.
It's impossible to add water to a cup that is already full. :-?

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durangout
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by durangout »

Charles7 and Cowboy:

You are correct. The 7th Seal opend Apr 6 2000 and we are currently in the Silence period.

Great minds think alike. :D

WarMonger: May I suggest you begin learning God's language. He speaks to us in a language of symbols. For example, "light" can be symbolic for truth, power, Christ Himself. Was Eve literally created from Adam's "rib"? Do the sacramental emblems symbolize something or are we just eating bread and drinking water? Why did the HP in the Hebrew temple wear white clothing in the Holy of Holies. Why did Moses / Christ fast for exactly 40 days? Why are there 12 Tribes and not 11 or13? Why do we perform baptism by immersion?..Once you begin to learn this language the scriptures and their meaning will become much clearer to you.

You have used two excellent examples in your end times explanations: The Great Earthquake and the Highway upon which the Lost 10 Tribes will return which both happen during the 6th Seal.

I submit that these two events mean something other than a literal earthquake and a road suspended over the ocean.

Thoughts, WarMonger?

buffalo_girl
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by buffalo_girl »

You have used two excellent examples in your end times explanations: The Great Earthquake and the Highway upon which the Lost 10 Tribes will return which both happen during the 6th Seal.

I submit that these two events mean something other than a literal earthquake and a road suspended over the ocean.

The way I read Section 133 verses 18-52 these events will occur at & after the LORD's return. The Gospel will continue to be taught after His arrival.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 3?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Carlos
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Carlos »

Charles7 wrote: It will commence in the year 2000 AD .
Let me make a minor correction to everyone's celebration of the opening of the 7th seal. The calendar makers left out the year zero, i.e. it went from 1 bc to 1 ad. So technically, the opening of the 7th seal took place on April 6th 2001. Just a few months before all hell broke lose. I think scripturally speaking that would be, 'the bottomless pit was opened" and filled the world with the acrid smoke of war. It is progressing to Armageddon, the third woe.
Charles, one of the events of the 6th seal was the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars. Yesterday I wrote a scriptural explanation of the symbolism of this event in the "Gospel Discussions" area. Check it out and you better understand how metaphors are an intregal part of the Lord's language. The thread is titled "Understanding Heaven and Earth".

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

Cowboy wrote:Sorry WarMonger,
We agree on the events but not the timing...I think you missed those events, ha ha
THEY WERE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( just teasing, )
This is also a point they are not great sings if 99.999999% of every one missed them, and those that say they have happened can't point them out except it happens in heaven and was symbolic of events that are not going to occur. (perhaps we are all like Rip Van Winkle had too much liquor and missed the restoration).LOL. All the symbolism you mention are symbolic of actual events!!!

AofF10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
Two separate PH keys and two separate temporal events - the scriptures are very clear. Now we go round and round in circles: missionaries withdrawn then the calamities start. All the other seals 1-5 were literal events not symbolic of things that did not occur- the seals are calamities that will happen to men on earth.

If all the events of the 6th seal are heavenly/symbolic - so then are the 7th seal as well -nothing to worry about just one big party and they (calamities) will pass without the world noticing it.

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

durangout wrote: WarMonger: Was Eve literally created from Adam's "rib"?
Thoughts, WarMonger?
Many years ago I remember a conference talk (perhaps even T.S. Monson) about how dogs, cats cows etc. and most other large animals have one more (13) set of ribs than humans do (12)?? be careful :-B
durangout wrote: WarMonger: Do the sacramental emblems symbolize something or are we just eating bread and drinking water?
Thoughts, WarMonger?

The sacrament represents and actual event that occurred on earth - not some strange heavenly symbol that no one has seen or understands on earth.


Jeremiah 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
It will be a greater temporal/earhtly event than Moses leading the children of Israel through the Red Sea??

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Cowboy
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Cowboy »

WarMonger wrote:
Cowboy wrote:Sorry WarMonger,
We agree on the events but not the timing...I think you missed those events, ha ha
THEY WERE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( just teasing, )
This is also a point they are not great sings if 99.999999% of every one missed them, and those that say they have happened can't point them out except it happens in heaven and was symbolic of events that are not going to occur. (perhaps we are all like Rip Van Winkle had too much liquor and missed the restoration).LOL. All the symbolism you mention are symbolic of actual events!!!

AofF10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
Two separate PH keys and two separate temporal events - the scriptures are very clear. Now we go round and round in circles: missionaries withdrawn then the calamities start. All the other seals 1-5 were literal events not symbolic of things that did not occur- the seals are calamities that will happen to men on earth.

If all the events of the 6th seal are heavenly/symbolic - so then are the 7th seal as well -nothing to worry about just one big party and they (calamities) will pass without the world noticing it.

I'm not getting what you are saying. I think several of us who are interested need to fly down and have a meeting / conference/ symposium.
We could hold it on Bonzai Beach and figure all this out. Of course we would all need to stay at your house and eat all of your food too.
We would be like a highly regarded " Think Tank ".
WOW, is that a plan or what?

Ok, back to reality... Good catch Carlos, It would be April 6th 2001

Warmonger, I am not much into symbolism. The Seals are time frames that the Lord has given the Earth for its existence.
The events are literal, I agree, I just feel you are misinterpreting when and how they need to happen.
The calamities or woes start right after the half hour of silence ends.

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Thinker
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Thinker »

Cowboy wrote:I am not much into symbolism.
Then, you're missing the mark.
The Seals are time frames that the Lord has given the Earth for its existence.
The events are literal, I agree, I just feel you are misinterpreting when and how they need to happen.
The calamities or woes start right after the half hour of silence ends.
Says who?

Jesus, when asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, said,
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, lo here, or lo there.
For behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
- Luke 17:20-21-ish

Cowboy, where else do you experience God, except WITHIN you?
Many Jews around Jesus wanted an external savior, to free them from tyrants, etc.
However, Jesus offered an internal saving, by following/applying his teachings, which were symbolic parables.

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AI2.0
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by AI2.0 »

I don't know but it sure feels like 'silence' right now. I agree with those who say we are in the period of silence. I've felt that we are in the Seventh seal for some time now.

I think the Book of Revelation is becoming clearer as we see last days events unfold.

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

AI2.0 wrote:I don't know but it sure feels like 'silence' right now. I agree with those who say we are in the period of silence. I've felt that we are in the Seventh seal for some time now.
I think the Book of Revelation is becoming clearer as we see last days events unfold.
Silence from what - it implies there was a big noise then things quietened down. Not much that can be considered events in the seals have happened in the last +140 years baring the ww1/2 which were non events if one takes the prophesied things to come.

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

Cowboy wrote:I'm not getting what you are saying. I think several of us who are interested need to fly down and have a meeting / conference/ symposium.
We could hold it on Bonzai Beach and figure all this out. Of course we would all need to stay at your house and eat all of your food too.
We would be like a highly regarded " Think Tank ". WOW, is that a plan or what?
Sounds like a plan Bondi beach is cool but I am closer to Newcastle an have numerous great beaches.

Final comments:
My thinking is economic chaos, missionary with drawn, earthquakes, plagues, wars - nukes, US split in half by earthquakes - Jackson County swept clean from Tsunami (great lakes), Zion established - temple built, lost tribes return with scriptures and get temple blessings from Ephraim. The 144k called sealed on forehead for protection against the plagues etc. then sent out to recover the few repentant straggles across the globe - to bring them to Zion New Jerusalem - else what is their purpose. (all the main prophets and gospel writer mention the lost tribes even in the AoF which is a very very brief summary of our beliefs). The Jews build the temple in Jerusalem - first need a serious war for that to happen.

Silence in heaven is likely a reprieve from all the meteorites, comets and CME hitting the earth (angry heavens and start falling like figs - also a 6th seal event), then the heavenly bombardment continues with a vengeance in the 7th seal.

The 7th seal is final destruction of the wicked, Armageddon and the Jews accepting the Messiah, return of the city of Enoch then the second coming.

You have a problem with earthquake, 144k, meteorite bombardment etc, I have a calender problem :-? .

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WarMonger
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by WarMonger »

So much for a final post!! I have solved the silence in "HEAVEN", you guys put me under tooooo much pressure had to solve the issue.

6th seal event meteorite shower (figs, Rev6:13), then Rev7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads". Basically don't destroy the world until 144K missionaries sent out to do the final work.

Then opening 7th seal heralded by "voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake" Rev8:5.
then:
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Opening 7th seal first 3 events major extraterrestrial bombardments destroying ± half the world. so the silence in the heavens is from the 'figs falling' 6th seal to three major planetary events from the heavens. The silence is for the 144k to do their work prior to the 7th seal and all out destruction and also gives the anti Christ time to get their armies together to fight against Israel just like the Jaradies had a few years of peace gathering all their armies/population for utter destruction.

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Cowboy
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Re: Sixth Seal OR Seventh Seal?

Post by Cowboy »

Hey Mate,
Our thinking is almost identical.
The only difference is the timing of where we are.
I even see it the same as you as to the order it will happen.
I just see it differently as to where we are in the timeline. The Earthquake will happen and the rest of the woes will occur.
But I just don't think you have the need for some of those things to happen in the Sixth Seal correct as opposed to the Seventh.

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