"I'll just come to your house"

[Poltaxcaptain of 100]

"We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865

"There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has the right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six, 1843-44, p. 391

"Consider this comparison. In the welfare program we have been counseled for generations by the leaders of the Church to secure for ourselves a year’s supply of food and clothing, and if possible fuel, and to be concerned for our shelter. This is a responsibility laid upon the individual members of the church, upon each family. The commodities are to be stored at home. They are to be privately purchased, privately stored, and in time of crisis, privately used.
It is not ever suggested that because we have bishop’s storehouses there would be no need for individual families to maintain their year’s supply. The counsel for the individual to protect himself and his family has never been withdrawn. It has been continually emphasized."
Boyd K. Packer, “The Holy Temple”

"Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being preparing to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst, while working for the best."
Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264

===
"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave."
Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, Vol 1, p. 171 - 172, July 31, 1853

President Spencer W. Kimball identified who the Ten Virgins are in the Church. “I believe that the Ten Virgins represent the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and not the rank and file of the world. All of the virgins, wise and foolish, had accepted the invitation to the wedding supper. They had knowledge of the program and had been warned of the important day to come.
They (the foolish) knew the way, but gave only a small measure of loyalty and devotion. I ask you, what value is a car without an engine, a cup without water, a table without food, or a lamp without oil? Hundreds of thousands of us today are in this position. Confidence has been dulled and patience worn thin. It is so hard to wait and be prepared always. But we cannot allow ourselves to slumber. The Lord has given us this parable as a special warning. The foolish asked others to share their oil, but spiritual (as well as temporal) preparedness cannot be shared in an instant. The wise had to go, else the bridegroom would have gone unwelcomed. They needed all their oil for themselves, they could not save the foolish. The responsibility was each for himself”.
(From: Faith Precedes The Miracle, pg. 253)

According to the quote above by Pres. Spencer W Kimball....at some point those who did not prepare will be turned away by those that did prepare.

Our family has put away supplies of all types and continue to do so. We also train to protect ourselves from what ever may come to harm us. We pray we never have to use those supplies or the training we have and continue to do. We also pray we will have the spirit with us to make the correct and hard decisions that may come upon our family and friends of like mind.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

Lots of interesting things to think about - good and lively discussion. I like it.

But what it comes down to for me is that I have been given a stewardship to take care of my family.
Sure I do have faith (or at least hope to by then) that the last meal bucket won't fail, but I have gone out of my way to get a meal bucket! Faith without works is dead - and in a needing food storage kind of way - dead is real!
I am reminded when the Nephites isolated themselves for 7 years to to starve off the Gadiantons.
Also at many times weapons of war were patterned after the Sword of Laban.
I have faith that the Lord will make things right in the end, eternal end. But I also need to demonstrate works, then after all I can do, I can call on the powers of heaven and as Nephi teaches, and my prayers will be answered.
Why was it important to Mormon to include in the Book of Mormon as a significant portion the chapters in Alma?
There is lots of violence in the Book of Mormon. Think Title of Liberty.
Defensive violence is always justified. It is much more important that I protect and raise up my children in the Lords Kingdom so that we can all build the Kingdom, than to sacrifice one or more of them so that an evil-doer might have a chance to repent.
Alma 57:19 interesting use of the word "administer" almost spoken of like an ordinance, and if you understand the plan of salvation, death is just a point in time.
I fully intend to share my excess. That which I have that I don't need to take care of my own stewardship.
If I were to foolishly squander my talents, I will have to account to the Lord for my decision.
If a Bishop, or other Priesthood leader requests my preparations, I will provide, but I will also let the leader know that without these resources I can't fulfill my responsibilities, and I will be calling on him shortly.
Rambling on here - But I do enjoy the discussion.

OK, so I tell my fellow quorum members, to be sure to bring work gloves, and garden tools. I'm sure I can find some thing for them to do for 1 Cup of Wheat. I also ask how they will be coming to visit. Humbly by themselves, or with a mob. I need to know how to prepare to properly greet them when they come.
I also reserve the right to be directed/prompted by the Holy Ghost as the situation directs.
(this means I need to prepare myself spiritually also - so that I am sensitive to the promptings)

Sadly though, way too many members of my ward just haven't obeyed the commandment to prepare every needful thing. And I also think that they will have to pay a very high price for not following that commandment. Not for me to decide - that is the Lords.

If the Lord requires me to share my buckets of dry wheat, beans, and rice, I am sure he will provide sweeter manna for me and my family. And so He will bless me as I am able to bless others.

But we still gotta get out of debt, live within our means, get a food storage, and get every other needful thing.

Best post yet. I would like to mention that the Lord tells us that there will always be "enough and to spare" (consider the lillies). Also, I think it is apropriate that you would ask your neighbors to help with your chores when they come to ask you to share their food, and I would do the same. However, I myself would not feel comfortable denying anyone in need, if there was "enough and to spare" (as God says there will be). Even in the case of a mob, I would rather try to apease them with food than to risk losing my life holding them off with gunfire. You can always grow more food.

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

paper face, to reply to your comment about the people of Ammon, you're failing to understand their situation. So let me explain it to you.

The Lamanites converted by Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah were wicked men. They had shed the blood of their brethren and engaged in evil actions. When they were converted, in repenting of those vile acts they swore an oath to never again shed the blood of their brethren. When the other Lamanites came upon them to destroy them, they refused to break that oath, and so allowed themselves to be slain rather than do so. When their brethren were moved to repentance by the slaughter, they too swore that oath. It wasn't that they didn't believe in defending themselves, but that in Nephite and Lamanite culture oaths were sacred, and it was better to die than to break one. In times of war when Nephites defeated Lamanite warriors they would give them the option of leaving, with their weapons, provided they swore an oath to never again take up arms against the Nephites. Yet they left them their weapons so they could defend themselves.

Imagine that, a culture where there was so much honor in keeping oaths that two peoples engaged in a multi-generational blood feud trusted each other to walk away with their weapons.

The situation of those converts who died rather than break an oath isn't unique, but it is unusual. And it in no way suggests that righteous people should be required to make such an oath themselves, or that they shouldn't defend themselves. The Nephites took up arms to defend the converted Lamanites because they respected the oath they'd taken and passionately believed in defending against aggression. Captain Moroni, one of the most righteous men to ever have lived, fought many wars in defense of his people. The sons of those converts also took up arms, because they realized the righteousness of defending their people, and they couldn't bear to have the Nephites suffer under that burden unaided.

Have you, personally, been part of a culture that murdered others, then been converted and as part of that conversion swore never to shed the blood of another? If not, then maybe you should rethink your position on sitting around doing nothing while evil men murder you and your loved ones.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Poltax - excellent post which should certainly stifle the foolish notion of not defending ourselves, our families, and our property. Doing so is an eternal principle.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

"39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not aevil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right bcheek, cturn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would bborrow of thee turn not thou away."

The vessel of meal was only expanded once the widow gave away all that she had. If she had defended her "possessions" and not shared, she would have starved. But, in giving all she had, she was preserved.

There is certainly precedence for kindness, in all situations. God is in control of who comes to your door and asks for help. What do you do? What if they demand your help? What if they come to take it by force? What is the difference. He will only let them come, if you need the challenge. If that challenge is just target practice, I doubt he would draw them to you.

I think we could be justified by protecting our family and that which we have collected in obedience, I am just not sure at what level of the law we would be operating at if we choose to take that path. It certainly wasn't the same level as Christ choose to live at, nor was it the same as Stephen, etc.

It is a choice, but it will be a choice with consequences. We may preserve our temporal existence and comfort with that choice, but we may loose something on a higher level with that choice.

I am in favor of defending that which is ours, but are we the Lords storehouse, and have we consecrated all we have to him or not. Maybe that is the difference.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Indeed Rand, but consecration means doing with our goods as the Lord commands, not leaning to our own understanding.

The widow sharing her last meal may have been a pattern for us, or it may have been a unique instance - the lesson to be learned being faith. If I remember the story right, wasn't she told in a dream to share her meal with the prophet - or was it that he testified to her that she whould give him the last of her food?

I agree with the compassionate view that few things would be more difficult than to turn away a starving family when you had food. As I am sure it was hard for Noah not to open the ark once the rain started falling and I am sure his neighbors were pounding on the door begging to be let in. Of course, had he done so, they would have run out of provisions and all died.

So clearly there are examples in the scriptures of both options. The correct thing to do will be to do as the Lord commands. As I have said, if the Lord leaves it up to me, my default position will be if you are able to work, I will give a days food for a days labor. If you are unable to work, I will share. If you come to take by force, you will be met with defensive and deadly force.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

OI, I think we are in agreement. I do think however that the most humble course is the most righteous course. I don't like it very much, but, I do think that our greatest challenge will be to make our preparations to save our family, and then be expected, like the widow, to give it away and rely entirely on the Lord.

I don't look forward to that challenge, but, I feel that it will come. We will be tested in all things, and I am pretty sure having to give up all of our security will be one of those tests. Test one was to be prepared, test two will be to trust God totally in giving it up, either to the church, or to those we consider not worthy of it.
I remember Elder Oaks and his pre-apostolic test. Protecting his wife and his own life. He choose well.

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us abread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.

16 And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.

17 And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.

18 When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.

20 And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh’s.

PLEASE read this above!!!! this is exactly what is going to happen here. !!!!!!! wow what a find.

The money failed!!!! They could not buy or sell anything. They went to the barter system. Food was exchanged for assets. Why you would sell your cattle I have no idea I would eat my cattle but anyway.

What was the end result. Those who were not prepared were sold into SLAVERY!!!! for food. Those that had food could of bought up all the land and assets for almost nothing and ended up that Pharoah or the GOVERNMENT OWNED it ALL!!!!!! They sold themselves into slavery and sold all their lands to the Government. Satan used this before and he will use it again to get all the assets into the very very few hands and lead the people captive into hell.

This is how it is going to happen very very soon.

I could use a couple slaves... come on over on second thought. Okay so if I want two slaves then i need to get food for 2 more people.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

nice post 7cylcon7 - I'd add that a good many have already sold themselves into slavery in exchange for food - anyone that is dependent on government for their daily bread are already slaves. And they will react exactly as desired if and when that is threatened.

What a perfect division of the people that will be turned against each other - while Satan will laugh and glory in his "victory".

[Poltaxcaptain of 100]

Fairminded......great comment. One of the things most LDS forget about the Ammonites is that they were about ready to take up arms themselves to take the burden off of the Nephites that were guarding them. They were then reminded/persuaded to not take up arms, even in defense of themselves, due to the oath that they had taken. They just were not sure what their eternal judgement would be, even in defending their own lives. So instead of going themselves and breaking their oath, they willingly sent their sons who had not taken the oath. As a result of the teaching of their mothers, & the faith that the Stripling Warriors had. Not a single one was killed. Many were wounded, but they all came home, every last one of them. Including the additional 200 that went out at a later date.

This story of the Ammonites & the Stripling Warriors, is clearly a lesson in defending yourselves. As I touched on above, it is often misinterpreted to be an example of how we should be pacifists, and not defend ourselves. It is clearly the opposite.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

I will add one more comment and then suffice, but food for thought: We are to be about building Zion, not surviving. That means we are to be living the celestial law. If God feels we are worthy to help build Zion, He will see to it that we survive. I think our situation is nearer to what King Benjamin was teaching his people than certainly applies in Genesis and the Egyptians. King Benjamin taught: 16 And also, ye yourselves will asuccor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the bbeggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt asay: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

Now if the beggar puts up his petition behind an AK47, it may be a different story. Even in that situation, I am not sure what we should do, but I expect we will be guided in the moment. I am prepared for each eventuality, but will not let my food storage become what I put my trust in. I have prepared as fully as I know how to. But, I am also prepared to let God challenge me and still be faithful... even if it means I have to get out from behind my physical preparations and stand in trust before God.

We each will make our choices and be responsible for those choices. I suspect those who do not prepare will be tried in unimaginable ways, and many may not survive. But, I suspect those who prepare and make their preparations their god, may not last as long as those who are not prepared at all.

[Deborah000captain of 100]

So many good comments!

Poltax, I agree that we must, as did the Nephites, prepare our defences to survive the coming storms, and I very much like your example of the Ammonites and the Strippling Warriors. It is comforting to note that every one survived their battles to secure the safety and freedoms of their families.

And Rand, I very much love your compassionate advice to be one that will be worthy to both build Zion and to stand with the Saints when our Saviour returns to NJ. I too, am not sure how pure our countence will be when we stand in His presence, if we have suffered the beggars leave our doors empy handed. Will life some how be diminished if we turn away the cries of our neighbors? We will survive, but at what cost? Perhaps the Lord will take the decision from us and "shut the door" as He did with Noah, but it is good to be prepared for the challenges that await us nevertheless.

Thank you for your comments.

[junipercaptain of 10]

Didn't Joseph smith have a hand gun with him at Carthage to defend his friends from the mob!

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

Didn't Joseph smith have a hand gun with him at Carthage to defend his friends from the mob!

Indeed, but the meal they sought was not wheat, but human blood, and innocent blood at that. I can hardly think that Joseph pulled the same revolver when a poor person came to his door asking for food.

We will all choose. I hope we get that opportunity, and I hope we have the right heart and soul when that choice looms. I have also enjoyed so many great insights and comments.

Remember for most of us our commitment is to build God's Zion, not to place our self dictated survival above that promise.

[junipercaptain of 10]

Exactly my point, I will not let some mob come into my home without me putting up a fight! If someone comes to my home hungry, I will feed them.

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

I say it to my friend freqently simply because he has more guns then I do.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Didn't Joseph smith have a hand gun with him at Carthage to defend his friends from the mob!

Indeed, but the meal they sought was not wheat, but human blood, and innocent blood at that. I can hardly think that Joseph pulled the same revolver when a poor person came to his door asking for food.

We will all choose. I hope we get that opportunity, and I hope we have the right heart and soul when that choice looms. I have also enjoyed so many great insights and comments.

Remember for most of us our commitment is to build God's Zion, not to place our self dictated survival above that promise.

Was Lehi selfish when he left Jerusalem, knowing that it would soon be sacked by invaders from the north?

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

Didn't Joseph smith have a hand gun with him at Carthage to defend his friends from the mob!

Didn't the Mormon Pioneers get along with certain native tribes better than other settlers did? Wasn't it because they put aside their fear of them and sought to trade with them and offer them food, rather than shoot at them?

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

Didn't Joseph smith have a hand gun with him at Carthage to defend his friends from the mob!

Indeed, but the meal they sought was not wheat, but human blood, and innocent blood at that. I can hardly think that Joseph pulled the same revolver when a poor person came to his door asking for food.

We will all choose. I hope we get that opportunity, and I hope we have the right heart and soul when that choice looms. I have also enjoyed so many great insights and comments.

Remember for most of us our commitment is to build God's Zion, not to place our self dictated survival above that promise.

Was Lehi selfish when he left Jerusalem, knowing that it would soon be sacked by invaders from the north?

Dr. Jones, I'm not sure I understand the comment. I think you are indicate that Lehi's leaving Jerusalem justifies us not caring for those who would ask us to share the foods and stuffs we have put aside in storage, other than lead. Is that right?

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

He is saying that when Lehi left Jerusalem he was no longer in a position to help the rest of Jerusalem witht he troubles they were soon to face. And I believe he is saying that is his strategy as well - when people come to his house for help - he won't be there!

[paper facecaptain of 100]

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

He is saying that when Lehi left Jerusalem he was no longer in a position to help the rest of Jerusalem witht he troubles they were soon to face. And I believe he is saying that is his strategy as well - when people come to his house for help - he won't be there!

That is kind of what I thought he meant. Thanks for filling in the empty spots, OI. If I am not mistaken, Lehi was commanded to leave. Are we commanded not to share. It seems a horse of a different color.

[uglypitbullcaptain of 1,000]

If I am not mistaken, Lehi was commanded to leave. Are we commanded not to share. It seems a horse of a different color.

Can I save you if you don't obey the commandments? No.
How is disobeying the commandment to have a year supply of food any different than disobeying the commandment to not steal? Is anyone suggesting that there are optional commandments? More importantly, optional consequences?

[Jerath23captain of 10]

What if part of your prep was to get ready to help mass quantities of people? knowing the land around you and places that could be farmed putting people up and putting them to work planting seeds you stored and helping them with some food and a place to lay there head at night. The more people you surround yourself with the safer you will be anyways. I don't know it seems like we have been given allot and we should share that as much as we can.

I think of it like if I had 5 years food and shared it with people so that we could last a year and all of us put to work growing more food gathering supplies then you have created a community instead of just saved your one family. I don't know it just seems like there should be a better way.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

What if part of your prep was to get ready to help mass quantities of people? knowing the land around you and places that could be farmed putting people up and putting them to work planting seeds you stored and helping them with some food and a place to lay there head at night. The more people you surround yourself with the safer you will be anyways. I don't know it seems like we have been given allot and we should share that as much as we can.

I think of it like if I had 5 years food and shared it with people so that we could last a year and all of us put to work growing more food gathering supplies then you have created a community instead of just saved your one family. I don't know it just seems like there should be a better way.

#1

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

What if part of your prep was to get ready to help mass quantities of people? knowing the land around you and places that could be farmed putting people up and putting them to work planting seeds you stored and helping them with some food and a place to lay there head at night. The more people you surround yourself with the safer you will be anyways. I don't know it seems like we have been given allot and we should share that as much as we can.

I think of it like if I had 5 years food and shared it with people so that we could last a year and all of us put to work growing more food gathering supplies then you have created a community instead of just saved your one family. I don't know it just seems like there should be a better way.

This is the future I envision as well.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

Jerath23 wrote:
What if part of your prep was to get ready to help mass quantities of people? knowing the land around you and places that could be farmed putting people up and putting them to work planting seeds you stored and helping them with some food and a place to lay there head at night. The more people you surround yourself with the safer you will be anyways. I don't know it seems like we have been given allot and we should share that as much as we can.

I think of it like if I had 5 years food and shared it with people so that we could last a year and all of us put to work growing more food gathering supplies then you have created a community instead of just saved your one family. I don't know it just seems like there should be a better way.
This is the future I envision as well.

This all sounds well and good, but lets not forget a huge portion of society is soft and lazy. Aslo there are many people who are wicked and evil . Satan will seem unleashed during the years before the return of Jesus. I'm a huge believer in sharing and helping to rebuild our community but I'm also cautious. I think it will take time for us to be safe enough to build this future and there will a time of chaos and evil to navigate through.


Now seriouly where are the stories of which I posted this thread for? Man I was looking for some fun but no one wants to play.

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

I think this will all happen. Just not until after many people (wicked) have already perished. Then the righteous will work together to rebuild.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

I don't think any of us are concerned about the people who approach in a peaceful manner and humbly offer work or goods in exchange for food, or even those who have nothing and move slowly with hands out in peaceful and repentant supplication. We're not worried about people who when told we have nothing left to give with simply thank us and leave a blessing as they move on.

The concern, and the implication of the subject, is the people who:

1. approach quickly with weapons out and don't bother to even ask, ie the shoot first and ask questions later crowd
2. those who comes as thieves in the night with no intent to harm, but intent to steal and destroy or harm as needed to do so
3. those who claim some sort of authority and demand food and supplies be handed over, perhaps with an "audit" to make sure things are distributed fairly (and more fairly to them of course)
4. approach peacefully and ask until they get too many no answers, and then leave bitterly with a curse, and perhaps convert to or join with one of the others

Having extra to share should probably be considered practically mandatory for anyone who has been warned and has the means to do so. The scriptures are clear that voluntary charity is a great blessing to both givers and receivers (not to be confused with #3 above where involuntary charity is used as an excuse to support the entitled group). By anticipating a need for charity and preparing for it we can follow some of the most important teachings of Christ.

I know that there are people in central Utah and probably in many other places in the world where people are preparing to help lots of other people, especially with food. One large-scale operation (private) I heard of used shipping containers to store grain, basically filling them. A 40' shipping container can fit about 120,000 lbs of grain (2000 bushels), which would go way over its weight limit but wouldn't need to be moved. That's roughly a year supply for 240 people. At wholesale prices of around $7 a bushel that would cost around $14,000, plus $3k or so for the container, plus transportation costs, preferably a liner since shipping container paint is toxic (lead-based, etc), and also preferably bermed/buried to help it keep longer, and be less obvious. This might be around $20k for 240 people (with similar cost, maybe a bit higher, for gluten-free food for those with Celiac or similar), or less than $85 per person. This might not be ideal food, but when sprouted it'll do okay for survival. For a bit more you could do legumes and other seeds that are sproutable and provide a bit of nutritional variety, so say maybe $100 or even $150 per person.

Even still, how many people have the time and money to put this kind of stuff together, and are informed and charitable enough to do so? It's not a popular form of charity, so unlikely among the very wealthy of the world. There are certainly some doing it, but how many? The LDS Church is also doing some, but how many people can they manage?

For Central Utah there are quite a few people locally, but not too many and I'm sure there is PLENTY of food for the local population, even if only 5-10% of the people have their own food storage. The problem is what will people in cities do? Some may go east, but there isn't much food production or storage to the west of populated areas along the Wasatch Front. If half of Salt Lake County goes south and the other half goes north, and all of Utah County goes south... that's 1,500,000 people heading for central Utah.

There could also be issues with people form Las Vegas heading north... where else would they go? The people of southern CA will saturate the inland agricultural areas there, so if you're in LV heading to CA is a no go. Northern Arizona is a nice area with some agriculture and quite a few preppers, but they have about 4,000,000 people from the Phoenix area heading their way. Even if only half of the people from LV make it as far as central Utah (others stopping in Cedar City and agricultural areas along the way), that's another 1,000,000 people.

So what if 2,500,000 people are heading to central Utah, and 90% (2,250,000) don't have any food storage... how will this work? They may be spread around various counties (ie not just Sanpete county, or even Sanpete and Sevier where Richfield is), but that's a lot of population to absorb. Local food product isn't enough, and even with ruminants eating mountain grasses in places that can't be reasonably farmed, probably could not be scaled to anywhere close to that.

To pick a nice round number, say we wanted to prepare enough foor for 2,000,000 people, and we did so with 40' shipping containers filled with grain and legumes and other seeds at about $20k for 200 people. That would require about 10,000 such shipping containers at a cost of around $200,000,000.

I know there are people preparing and planning to help, but at that scale? I'd be surprised if there was even 10% of this in Central Utah, ie enough for 200,000. Even that would require on average that each individual prepare for 30-40 people, and at the full scale above it would mean people on average prepare for 300-400 people.

Even if 100% of my preparation investment went into that, ie nothing into shelter or clothing or wilderness living or agricultural equipment/supplies or defense... I could just barely afford that. Most people (including myself) have way too much debt to justify an expense on that scale, especially people who are younger... and especially those with families.

This is what concerns me. What do we do with millions of hungry people wandering the fertile valleys of the Rocky Mountains looking for food? How many of them will be in each of the categories (1-4) mentioned above?

[Mittie Jcaptain of 10]

My Husband and grown sons are armed and dangerous, and have been taught, shoot to kill. We as a family decided long ago, nobody is piliging from us.

If we know them, and know them as neighbors, we will share. But no strangers will even get close to our belongings. Ruthless is the name of the game