People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Fairminded » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:42 am

Jason wrote:
mes5464 wrote:It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.


Amen and Amen! Hence the closer in 2 Nephi 10:15...and the plague....etc etc etc

A few thoughts this morning on currency and the business model tmac has discussed. I would think that the easiest way to implement some sort of currency on a small trial basis (introduction) would be in the format of using it in a bazaar type setting. For example people exchange silver, gold, FRNs, etc for coins or paper that are then used to trade within the bazaar (swap meet). Sort of like trading FRNs for coins to use in a video game arcade. One could make the coins or paper represent whatever they want - weight of gold, silver, copper, etc. That would mean that everyone within the bazaar would be buying/selling with that currency (officially rounds with no face value?).

A couple hurdles....what do you take in trade for your new currency? Or in other words what do you peg it to? silver, gold, etc??? Is that native, electrum, junk, sterling, 900, 925, silver flashed metal, nickel mix, etc...silver? Do you now need an assayer on site?

Does this add another dimension to the business start-up making it even more difficult to get off the ground? Bring on potential legal hassles that would stifle the business?

One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?

Also a couple thoughts on profit. Profit is an essential requirement of doing business. It basically represents the value added by the company to the goods or tools that the company acquires. Profit is requisite for future business expansion/investment.

As I understand the Law of Consecration....the entire focus of the LOC is on profit....or value added. The beauty of the LOC is that when a person/business reaches the point where profits cannot be invested to obtain further profit....they then go back into the pool (nest egg) to fuel investment somewhere else. In other words, when the individual/business cannot add any more value in whatever endeavor they are engaged in.....rather than then (or prior to reaching that point) siphoning off profits to build a bigger house higher up the hill that adds little if any additional value (or even destroys value).....the profits are turned over to others via the agent bishop (individual) or high council (business) to be invested elsewhere. The focus is on stewardship and ultimately in adding value (profitability - parable of the talents).

I believe that when this is implemented....along with proper government structure (rule of judges - as established by Moses and espoused by Cleon Skousen???)....standard of living will accelerate at a pace not seen in the history of the world (perhaps with a few minor exceptions - City of Enoch, etc).


An alternative to a trade currency used solely within the market would be to have someone at the market performing the role of moneychanger. If he had a decent supply of gold and silver rounds, junk silver, and FRNs, he could, say, exchange FRNs for silver so people could make purchases from those unwilling to take FRNs, or vice versa. He could then invest those FRNs in enlarging his supply of precious metals and supplying them to the market as an alternative form of stable currency.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of alternative currency in the form of notes or IOUs, but I'd like to avoid it if necessary, and it seems like there's other means of achieving the same effects that entail less risk. I've read a bit on the bank Joseph Smith implemented in the early days of the Church, and how enemies of the church manipulated the bank notes it produced to essentially make them worthless and bring great financial hardship to Joseph and other prominent members who'd supported the bank with large investments. The moment something becomes official, its enemies have something to attack.

I agree completely with your thoughts on the Law of Consecration and profits. I think one of the major flaws of today's businesses is that all efforts are confined to that business, so that when it's reached its maximum potential it either continues trying to expand past feasible boundaries, or it oversteps in some other way.

Reading the Work and the Glory series by Gerald Lund, I was very impressed by the way he presented the Steed family. It was a fairly large family that continued getting larger as time passed and children married. All had their various talents and interests and prospered within them. Then, as younger members of the family (or married-in members), decided it was time to begin providing for themselves, they would find an area they had expertise in, or one they thought the community needed, and the family would pitch in what they could spare of time and money to help that person get going in that venture. In that way everyone prospered as a need was taken care of.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:23 pm

I agree with everything Jason just posted.

I like the idea of the market making business easier by handling the business license.
They could also process the sales tax at the end when the merchant trades the rounds back in for FRNs/gold/silver?
These features would make it easy for a single person to make "something" and then just come to the bazaar and sell it without hassles.
Then, if they are successful enough, they may just open a brick and mortar store of their own.

I know the following is dreaming big:

What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Fairminded » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:35 pm

mes5464 wrote:What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?


We could house it in the Wal Mart building after we drive it out of business! Yeah!
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:58 pm

Fairminded wrote:
mes5464 wrote:What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?


We could house it in the Wal Mart building after we drive it out of business! Yeah!


W00T! I support that!
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:38 pm

Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21029&start=30#p255461

Was it that bad?
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Fairminded » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:00 pm

I don't think it's so much that we're ignoring it, mes5464. I know I read it through and appreciated the scriptures you'd found and the way you applied them to our situation. I was considering thanking you for providing them but laziness got in the way :), as well as thinking that I didn't really have much to add.

As to being inspired to move to Sanpete, I do know several people in Missouri who were inspired to move there and were doing their best to faithfully prosper themselves and follow the Lord's guidance. I admire anyone who follows such promptings, although I do have a word of caution (probably unnecessary from what I've read of your posts). Simply that you "look before you leap". Being inspired to do something doesn't always mean immediately drop everything and do it. Especially when it comes to something as dramatic as moving across the country, it's wise to make sure you find some prospects before doing so. I believe that where the Lord wills, He will open a way.

That said, I understand that to go back to my Missouri example, talking to the members there they've spoken of those who DID move there following promptings of the Spirit, but they did so pell-mell without plan or preparation and ended up in a fairly dire situation on arrival and became a burden on the local saints. A few even became bitter at their situation.

I'm glad you're searching the scriptures on this matter, but also that you're searching for opportunities in the area before committing. I hope one presents itself.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJay » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:09 pm

mes5464 wrote:Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21029&start=30#p255461

Was it that bad?


Not at all. Just be careful. Make sure that direction is from the Lord. Sometimes we want something so bad, we don't recognize a true prompting. I'm not saying one way or the other. Personal revelation is just that. If it is revelation - then do your part to make it happen.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Legion » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:48 pm

DrJay wrote:
mes5464 wrote:Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21029&start=30#p255461

Was it that bad?


Not at all. Just be careful. Make sure that direction is from the Lord. Sometimes we want something so bad, we don't recognize a true prompting. I'm not saying one way or the other. Personal revelation is just that. If it is revelation - then do your part to make it happen.


....my take as well....thus leaving it at that.

I've had a few hand wringers that nearly all (if not all) of my family members, friends, business associates, church members, and church leaders thought I was plumb crazy. At the end of the last major one two leaders (on separate occasions and unknown to my knowledge by the other) referred to it as my own little personal Zion's Camp (went out and back w/o seeming to accomplish anything in the middle except gain knowledge/experience) which I am still paying the bills for....but I have been blessed as promised (though I was highly doubtful when I received that promise - something along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it")....and a way has been provided for my escape.

Best of luck and more importantly, blessings, to you and your family in your hurdles through life!
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby jonesde » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:27 pm

Jason wrote:One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?


Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.

Personally, I prefer the working around the law approach. I don't really like the idea of funding violent gangsters any more than I have to. A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).

For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).

This reminds me of the recent movie "Larry Crowne" with Tom Hanks. In it one of his neighbors had a perpetual garage sale in his front yard, and it seemed to be his full-time occupation. What an idea... forget opening a retail outlet, just run it as a perpetual garage sale in your front yard!
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Legion » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:56 pm

jonesde wrote:
Jason wrote:One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?


Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.

Personally, I prefer the working around the law approach. I don't really like the idea of funding violent gangsters any more than I have to. A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).

For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).

This reminds me of the recent movie "Larry Crowne" with Tom Hanks. In it one of his neighbors had a perpetual garage sale in his front yard, and it seemed to be his full-time occupation. What an idea... forget opening a retail outlet, just run it as a perpetual garage sale in your front yard!


Lamar Johnson got lucky....and never looked back in terms of stickin' it to the man! Hence the effort to move away from even FRNs in an attempt to control such activities....and thus provide for greater taxation/control via electronic credits.

I knew of a guy who did some upholstery work occasionally for one of the states. The state was notoriously slow in paying its bills...often taking up to a year. Interest would be tacked on but the state would then refuse to pay the bill. The end users begged for service in order to keep their vehicles up. As a way to get his due rewards from the state....the response was to stick cash in his pocket when a customer paid for a job with cash. The state missed out on the sales tax revenue and he got his interest (as well as cash flow since they used his materials and labor for up to a year w/o paying for them). Get rid of the anonymous cash and it all goes away.....
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby John Adams » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:11 pm

HI guys,

I've really missed out on this thread. I haven't been to the site for a while and had a chance to get caught up a little today and sure enjoyed everyone's comments.

The past few months we've done some neat things with some friends in the ward. Nothing earth-shattering, but at least I believe heading in the right direction (pooling some resources, having some of the young men change the oil in cars vs. jiffy lube, etc.)

I also read a fun book recently (at least I thought it was fun) - Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of Latter-Day Saints 1830-1900 by Leonard Arrington. I stumbled across it while doing some research on co-ops and found it fascinating. It was written in the 1950's, but provided some great information about all the "trial & error" attempts that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc. went through with Law of Consecration, United Order, Co-ops, etc.

A few things I took away from it.

1 - The principles are still there for us to learn from and to try to implement even in our day (the early Saints struggled with the details as well, but some of the principles they listed in their various "constitutions" were really inspiring).
2 - The implementation may constantly be a "work in process" but so what - we want the Kingdom of God, so I'm OK with making a few mistakes along the way.
3 - External forces (i.e., government) can sure make life difficult, but God is in charge and will provide the means/way at the proper time if we're doing our part.
4 - The Saints were obviously against big government (i.e., socialism, communism, etc. in modern day terms), but they also weren't that hip on laissez faire individualism/capitalism either. The goal was always co-operation to build the Kingdom of God. Many of their initiatives would never have been tried if the sole purpose was "profit," but if they felt there was a need to help build the kingdom they would do their best to make it successful. With my wife being from Sugar City, Idaho; I really liked the story about how the Saints were able to make a success out of Sugar Beet farming when so many people said it would never be profitable in the Utah/Idaho desert wasteland.

This is more "philosophy" vs. "practical application" but the other thing that I took out of it was the thought that maybe we're part of a big chiasm. The Saints for whatever reason weren't ready for it back then (based on omniscience it's a good thing so we would get our chance to come down to earth and live, etc.), but there is a lot of information about what they did that we can learn from. Just about the time they were starting to get the hang of it (during the 1870's there were some really amazing success stories), then the government had to squash it all (the Edmunds-Tucker Act really stopped much of their progression to that point). Maybe on the other side of the cycle we'll see it play out the other way around--i.e., the government is gradually falling apart, maybe/hopefully we as Saints are learning to humble ourselves a little more each year as we struggle through these economic difficulties, and as we keep heading in the right direction seeking inspiration maybe all the stars will align this time.

Anyway, whether there is any credence to that line of thinking or not, I still think all this co-op, people's markets, home industry, etc. talk is a good thing no matter what.

I am excited to keep trying.

Oh yeah, one other piece of information that was interesting to me. Based on "monetary units," the church was in debt through the majority of those first seventy years (at least per the world's standards). However based on other points of view, the Kingdom continued to grow each year (i.e., additional communities, additional agriculture, additional flocks/herds, additional manufacturing, new immigrants, new children, new trade, etc.). So per the Babylon definition of success, you would say the Saints really struggled during those years of trying a co-operative approach. However I think what they accomplished was amazing. So yes I know we have to deal with the whole FRN/$ issue even now, but I think as we try to implement these other ideas we do build a more lasting type of "wealth" that will serve us all well as the Babylonian currency gradually collapses.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:14 pm

John Adams wrote:HI guys,

I've really missed out on this thread. I haven't been to the site for a while and had a chance to get caught up a little today and sure enjoyed everyone's comments.

The past few months we've done some neat things with some friends in the ward. Nothing earth-shattering, but at least I believe heading in the right direction (pooling some resources, having some of the young men change the oil in cars vs. jiffy lube, etc.)

I also read a fun book recently (at least I thought it was fun) - Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of Latter-Day Saints 1830-1900 by Leonard Arrington. I stumbled across it while doing some research on co-ops and found it fascinating. It was written in the 1950's, but provided some great information about all the "trial & error" attempts that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc. went through with Law of Consecration, United Order, Co-ops, etc.

A few things I took away from it.

1 - The principles are still there for us to learn from and to try to implement even in our day (the early Saints struggled with the details as well, but some of the principles they listed in their various "constitutions" were really inspiring).
2 - The implementation may constantly be a "work in process" but so what - we want the Kingdom of God, so I'm OK with making a few mistakes along the way.
3 - External forces (i.e., government) can sure make life difficult, but God is in charge and will provide the means/way at the proper time if we're doing our part.
4 - The Saints were obviously against big government (i.e., socialism, communism, etc. in modern day terms), but they also weren't that hip on laissez faire individualism/capitalism either. The goal was always co-operation to build the Kingdom of God. Many of their initiatives would never have been tried if the sole purpose was "profit," but if they felt there was a need to help build the kingdom they would do their best to make it successful. With my wife being from Sugar City, Idaho; I really liked the story about how the Saints were able to make a success out of Sugar Beet farming when so many people said it would never be profitable in the Utah/Idaho desert wasteland.

This is more "philosophy" vs. "practical application" but the other thing that I took out of it was the thought that maybe we're part of a big chiasm. The Saints for whatever reason weren't ready for it back then (based on omniscience it's a good thing so we would get our chance to come down to earth and live, etc.), but there is a lot of information about what they did that we can learn from. Just about the time they were starting to get the hang of it (during the 1870's there were some really amazing success stories), then the government had to squash it all (the Edmunds-Tucker Act really stopped much of their progression to that point). Maybe on the other side of the cycle we'll see it play out the other way around--i.e., the government is gradually falling apart, maybe/hopefully we as Saints are learning to humble ourselves a little more each year as we struggle through these economic difficulties, and as we keep heading in the right direction seeking inspiration maybe all the stars will align this time.

Anyway, whether there is any credence to that line of thinking or not, I still think all this co-op, people's markets, home industry, etc. talk is a good thing no matter what.

I am excited to keep trying.
...


Thanks for the insights from Arrington's history, and from yourself, John Adams... I'm excited to keep trying, too.

Wife and I went on a quick trip; back now and I read through the posts. More good ideas keep evolving here as we discuss.
Jonesde for example noted:

A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).


Yes, I like the terma "agorism," from the Greek for open market IIRC. This really resonates with me:

For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).


Or a "multi-family garage/yard sale"...
instead of using the term "farmer's MARKET" etc. which does seem to be likely to attract formal guvmint attention.

Say there are six families who want to do a bi-monthly (or whatever) garage sale. They choose one well-located yard to hold it at -- or the location could even rotate from one yard to another.
Advertising is cheap in the local advertiser -- in Sanpete = The Horseshoe Trader -- and those editors probably know if there have been "rules restricting" garage or yard sales).

More to the point -- I was one of about 6 families who actually did this about two years ago and it went VERY well. Most folks came in the morning before noon (Like Mes noted) and it was over by about 2pm. Good deals. I remember one neighbor who was not even part of the original "founders" of the yard sale brought over a rifle with scope... it sold quickly! Private party selling of firearms between Utahns is legal in Utah...
The monies from the garage sale (we used FRN's) went to the person who contributed the stuff. Each family had a separate table, pretty much.

Good idea, Jonesde! good way to get the ball rolling IMO.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:33 pm

I'll tell you how to get folks to come to a multi-family yard sale in Sanpete county --
advertise that you'll have available things like:

1. Rifles, pistols etc
2. Old silver coinage and silver rounds
3. A place to sell YOUR silver coinage and silver rounds; no fingerprints taken
4. Four-wheelers and snow-mobiles
5. Bales of hay; food - storage buckets of wheat etc.
6. Redmond salt
7. Barbed-wire and other fencing.
8. That old truck without computer-stuff, especially diesel. Running older cars also.
9. Fresh-baked cookies, pies (yum!) and cakes and muffins
10. Home-grown veggies, apples, peaches, and eggs...
:ymhug:

Things you probably won't find at garage sales in Orem... ;)

They might drive miles for the fire arms... but they'll also buy some stuff to eat for the trip back. ;)
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby awar_e » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:59 pm

I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby gooseguy11 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:38 pm

mes5464 wrote:
DrJones wrote:I learned that in my town of Spring City, the town guvmint wanted more revenue from fees etc.... which has prompted some of us to seek a spot for the PM outside the town, in the county. There are actually two guys with proposed spots -- Keith C and David... will leave the names at that for now.


I believe that a political movement should be started to replace local and county leaders that aren't supportive of smaller government and lower taxes. I believe it will be imperative to alter the tax structure so that the Gadiantons can't use it to thwart efforts at independence.

Additionally, a constitutionally minded sheriff will have to be elected that will stand up to unconstitutional federal authorities that attempt to exert influence in the county.



OK, I am excited to say the least for your progress in this thing. To address the above concerns, in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike. Follow the link:

http://www.stevenscountyassembly.com/bl ... ance-final

They have a strong sheriff, who is part of Sheriff Mack’s line of thinking.

As far a local economies doing this, we have been doing this in my home town for three years. Each year we grow a little more. Our local municipality actually puts it on. They let us (the market) use the space and each vendor pays for the space it uses $15 a week. All the money goes to pay for a manager and advertising and it is managed by a board comprised of vendors. Each vendor sells what ever they want. We sell b-fast sandwiches, and cotton candy. Others sell trinkets they make, or produce on their own property, tacos, shave ice, veggies and fruits. The health dept is very much a part of what we do, it is not that big of a deal. They just make sure what we make is safe. As far as vendor goes we have probably 40 vendors in the peak of the season. Some come as far as 130 miles to sell at our market. After talking to our market vendors that come from afar they say other markets may have more people that come to them, but that they are often just looking at our people are buying stuff. They come from markets far larger than ours, it just works out better for them here than there. Our town is only 20,000 people not a small town but not a huge one either.

The structure of the market is also a draw to the vendors as well as they say other markets are privately ran and often the owners are there to make a buck and do not contribute to the market at all. They charge admission, or for parking which then just inhibits potential customers from even wanting to come. Or their rules are cumbersome to follow.

Here is a link to the market: http://www.moseslakefarmersmarket.com/index.html

I Hope this helps.



jaasdf
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:56 pm

gooseguy11 wrote:

OK, I am excited to say the least for your progress in this thing. To address the above concerns, in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike. Follow the link:

http://www.stevenscountyassembly.com/bl ... ance-final

They have a strong sheriff, who is part of Sheriff Mack’s line of thinking.


As far a local economies doing this, we have been doing this in my home town for three years. Each year we grow a little more. Our local municipality actually puts it on. They let us (the market) use the space and each vendor pays for the space it uses $15 a week. All the money goes to pay for a manager and advertising and it is managed by a board comprised of vendors. Each vendor sells what ever they want. We sell b-fast sandwiches, and cotton candy. Others sell trinkets they make, or produce on their own property, tacos, shave ice, veggies and fruits. The health dept is very much a part of what we do, it is not that big of a deal. They just make sure what we make is safe. As far as vendor goes we have probably 40 vendors in the peak of the season. Some come as far as 130 miles to sell at our market. After talking to our market vendors that come from afar they say other markets may have more people that come to them, but that they are often just looking at our people are buying stuff. They come from markets far larger than ours, it just works out better for them here than there. Our town is only 20,000 people not a small town but not a huge one either.

The structure of the market is also a draw to the vendors as well as they say other markets are privately ran and often the owners are there to make a buck and do not contribute to the market at all. They charge admission, or for parking which then just inhibits potential customers from even wanting to come. Or their rules are cumbersome to follow.

Here is a link to the market: http://www.moseslakefarmersmarket.com/index.html

I Hope this helps.
jaasdf


Yes! I'm excited to see that you have this in place already. Great!

in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike.


Please let us know if this is challenged/holds up, would you? again, congratulations to you and your county.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby bobhenstra » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:12 am

If you guys really want to do this, I'm sure you'll find that's it's much better to keep everything simple. Our fruit farmers here have discovered that they make a better profit from their fruit by simply selling it in farmers markets instead of trucking it all over selling it through brokers. I'm sure if you guys start a farmers market in your area our farmers will discover your market.

I've spent a lot of time in markets in many different countries, in every case they were simple places to buy and sell in. I loved outdoor market shopping in the City of Quezaltenango in Guatemala. Tons of great stuff to buy there! And cheap, I often went broke saving money-----

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby davedan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:24 am

Every December my home ward has an interesting SWAP-DAY event. Everyone brings to the Cultural Hall surplus, second-hand, clothing, toys, furniture, electronics, kitchen ware, etc. People bring what they aren't using, and take whatever they need.

There is no bartering. You bring what you have excess of, and take what you need. We are always left with a huge excess of everything.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby tmac » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:26 am

I was out of the loop yesterday, and this thread had a lot of activity, so lots to catch up on. I’m just going to grab a few comments here and there for quick response.

First of all, Mes, great thoughts from D&C 64. This is what I’m going to say, based on my experience and observation – the proof will be in the pudding -- if it is Lord’s will, and it is meant to be, it will work and come together; if it is not, then the time is not yet right, although obviously eventually there is no question that all this sort of thing will happen and be very successful – under the Lord’s guidance, direction, and possible intervention.

It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.


As I mentioned before, I’ve done some of this. We started in our own town. I won’t go into all the details here, but it took us four years of hard, persistent work to change the law (an intrusive new land-use ordinance) and the lawmakers (regime change). It was a great effort and a great success story that I could share some time in more detail. Two years later we tried to start doing the same thing at the county level – to clean-up some serious and obvious corruption, but we got handed our hats. As I’ve said before, especially in a county full of old-timers and good ol’ boys, I don’t believe it is realistically possible to make something happen politically before making something significant happen business-wise. The people who are trying to do it and leade the effort have to have a lot of credibility. A successful and thriving co-op/market would be a great way to get people involved, on board, spread the word, etc.

Also a couple thoughts on profit. Profit is an essential requirement of doing business. It basically represents the value added by the company to the goods or tools that the company acquires. Profit is requisite for future business expansion/investment.

As I understand the Law of Consecration....the entire focus of the LOC is on profit....or value added. . . . The focus is on stewardship and ultimately in adding value (profitability - parable of the talents).


I agree with Jason’s thoughts on all counts, especially including financial/profit aspect of it. Having said that, while I agree that profit can’t/shouldn’t be the only motive, to be successful, I don’t think the financial/profit motive can be ignored. Mes and I and others need to provide, financially, for our families. If we’re struggling to do that, we need to be putting our time, energy, effort and resources into things that help do that (and other things). Since ETB said our single most important role as Fathers in Zion is to provide for our families, if we’re struggling to do that, we can’t afford to be spending a bunch of time and effort doing things that don’t help us in that role. On the other hand, helping us better meet that need should be a great motivating factor in this whole equation. And that is one reason I think it is worth considering even making the market itself a “for-profit” venture. I have run the numbers. In the right place, I actually think that side of it would be the easiest “business” to get up and running, and generating income to help get the ball rolling. I have considered the fact that in Utah a real successful people’s market venture would eventually need to a place to move indoors to be protected from the elements during the winter, etc., and have thought that an old Wal-mart, K-mart, etc., would be a great venue (I’ve even done some location scouting), but how could that be funded and/or make any financial sense unless it were operated on a for-profit basis?

Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.


Because I’ve already looked into this to some extent, I know that in Utah I Famer’s Markets have been exempt from sales tax. That is one of the reasons why both sellers and buyers love them. The state legislature has been talking about changing that, but I don’t think it has happened yet. With respect to business licenses, even in a worst case scenario only “businesses” need them anyway. If people simply bring their garage sale to the market, they don’t need a license. But doing something to stream-line and handle any business license requirement would be a great help. I’ve also had some additional thoughts along that line, but a cooperative, instead of antagonistic local government would be a great help.

Yesterday, because I was on the road and out-of pocket, whenever I had a chance I was reading a book that I had along. The book was about the business considerations for farmstead/artisan cheesemaking. It went into a lot of history about cheese and cheesemaking and marketing, etc. It talked about how in Europe, some towns are/were considered to be "market' towns. Those were the towns where markets just like we've described were developed, and where people came to trade and do business. Based on my experience and observation, I think the same thing is true all over the world. Some towns are market towns. They become commercial hubs, in a sense, and the local economy benefits greatly from the financial activity. During one of my several stints in Cedar City, Utah, I was heavily involved with the local Chamber of Commerce and economic development committee. One interesting study we did was about the multiplier effect of money that changed hands at the local livestock auction, and then changed hands again all over town. Cedar City is a market town, and people come from all over, especially to sell their livestock at the auction. My point is that any communit(ies) that get a successful alternative market up and running and become "market" towns will have a huge advantage economically. I think the same thing is true all over. In Sanpete County the current "market" town is Ephraim. It has evolved into the commercial hub of Sanpete County (mostly because of Wal-mart and Snow College). The problem, though, is that except for wages very little of the money spent at Wal-mart gets re-circulated in the local community.

The point I want to make is that I think it is worth thinking "with the end in mind" and seriously considering the full potential of this sort of enterprise, especially from the people's market side of things. To that end, I think it would be worth trying to re-invent the wheel just once, and really perfect a business model, and then duplicate that model over and over again in places that would make sense to be "market" towns, providing a great venue for locals to buy, sell and trade "local" stuff.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:59 am

Well said, tmac -- I appreciated these insights:

Because I’ve already looked into this to some extent, I know that in Utah I Famer’s Markets have been exempt from sales tax. That is one of the reasons why both sellers and buyers love them. The state legislature has been talking about changing that, but I don’t think it has happened yet. With respect to business licenses, even in a worst case scenario only “businesses” need them anyway. If people simply bring their garage sale to the market, they don’t need a license. But doing something to stream-line and handle any business license requirement would be a great help. I’ve also had some additional thoughts along that line, but a cooperative, instead of antagonistic local government would be a great help.


And:


The point I want to make is that I think it is worth thinking "with the end in mind" and seriously considering the full potential of this sort of enterprise, especially from the people's market side of things. To that end, I think it would be worth trying to re-invent the wheel just once, and really perfect a business model, and then duplicate that model over and over again in places that would make sense to be "market" towns, providing a great venue for locals to buy, sell and trade "local" stuff.


That seems a worthy goal of this discussion -- to "re-invent the wheel just once" for the "people's market" or "multi-family yard sale" concept.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:47 am

awar_e wrote:I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/


Has anyone else looked at this site?

I do not live in the service area so I will not be able to test it but I think there are some good ideas here.

One, what if people could pre-order for the people's market. This would give a merchant the incentive to be there if they know ahead of time that they have a known quantity of sells already made.

Two, the people's market can serve as an escrow to accept the payment from the customer, and hold it for the vendor. If the vendor doesn't show the market can refund the money. If the customer doesn't show, then what?
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Legion » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:36 pm

mes5464 wrote:
awar_e wrote:I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/


Has anyone else looked at this site?

I do not live in the service area so I will not be able to test it but I think there are some good ideas here.

One, what if people could pre-order for the people's market. This would give a merchant the incentive to be there if they know ahead of time that they have a known quantity of sells already made.

Two, the people's market can serve as an escrow to accept the payment from the customer, and hold it for the vendor. If the vendor doesn't show the market can refund the money. If the customer doesn't show, then what?


Its an awesome distribution model (no store front, low overhead, etc)....but the downers are lack of choice as the buyers pick what will be in the baskets and you just purchase X number of baskets and you get what you get (product quality, variety, and quantity has declined over the past year).

My family has used them for just over a year now but we have petered out on them over the past month or so and will probably cease and desist in the near future.

Part of that is driven by health goals....whereas the basic driver of BB membership I think is cost savings on produce. If their organic line and non-organic line didn't cross over (same products) it would be exceptionally better. For example dirty dozen items provided in the organic box and not in the main baskets. Maybe that's asking a lot. Many other similar organizations. One of late that has been useful to us for meat purchases is Zaycon Foods.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm

I just remembered something that has been going on in my county. People are buying shares in farmer's crops. Then through the summer they pickup (or it is delivered) their share of the produce. My sister-in-law likes it and feels that she is getting her moneys worth. Additionally, they now know the farmer, where the food is grown, and can just show up to look at their investment. This method also, by its nature, keeps the food production close to the consumer.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Legion » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:32 pm

JulesGP wrote:Thanks for the info Jason, maybe I'll have to do a bit more research before I jump in!


Try it for a week or two....there's no long term obligation. I still think its a very good bang for the buck in terms of what you pay and what you get.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby Legion » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:13 pm

JulesGP wrote:
Jason wrote:
JulesGP wrote:Thanks for the info Jason, maybe I'll have to do a bit more research before I jump in!


Try it for a week or two....there's no long term obligation. I still think its a very good bang for the buck in terms of what you pay and what you get.

Well I'm very particular about paying attention to the "Dirty Dozen" and watching where my produce comes from. So I'll have to check out the prices... we'll see. Glad there is no contract though. But I'd still likely pay a little more to support a cooperative if that's the case.


They ask you to volunteer roughly every 5 times...which is very cool that everyone volunteers time to help each other out.

When we initially started we were overwhelmed with eating the vast amounts of vegetables (we've gotten two baskets every week for past year)....which was good for our health. Over the year we've progressed in our health knowledge and have gotten more picky. Specifically trying to avoid the dirty dozen when possible as well as adding vast amounts of specific items like kale.

BB seems to not go after the exotic variety as much (buyer's choice or market dynamics like drought and export problems with Mexico). The choices seem to mirror what deals Sunflower Market is having so seem to be buying the same things at the same time. BB obviously offers more bang for the buck because its a Co-op run by volunteers. In a perfect world they would avoid the dirty dozen in the regular baskets and offer that stuff in the organic boxes....unfortunately that isn't the case and its usually a mix of items. You get less for organic so we've tried to balance our quantity needs with organic by getting one of each. That isn't working and the quality in the organic boxes hasn't been that great (at the store I would have chosen less beat up produce and gladly paid a higher price).

We hope to soon bypass the whole process and grow most of our produce ourselves via hydroponics in the basement until the gardens can get cranking. That though has been a work in progress and is running 150% of budget right now and weeks out from hopefully what will be positive results.

Sorry about the epistle....
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby tmac » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:29 am

Hate to move from the very useful and practical discussion of the ins and outs of BB (we use them too) back to more theoretic and esoteric topics, but I wanted to go back to the people's market discussion.

John Adams' discussion of Leonard Arrington and the Great Basin Kingdom, etc., got me thinking about a book I have that talks about Brigham Young's original vision for how the West would be settled and colonized. I have now hunted and hunted for the book, but can't seem to find it. But in a nutshell, it said his basic vision was that local communities and their residents would be (and always be) interdependent and self-sufficient in virtually every way, and that within not more than 50 miles there would be a "market town," if you will, or a bigger commercial hub, where you could get anything that you might not be able to get in your own small community, but without having to travel any farther than that. I think that concept makes a lot of sense. I remember talking to a guy some years ago about all of this. We were at a big draft horse and equipment sale and swap meet in Oregon sponsored by Small Farmers Journal (held every spring, and also definitely worth checking out). He say "you know what has destroyed small towns don't you? -- cheap gas." There's a lot of truth to what he said. Cheap gas has allowed us to drive to Wal-mart and Costco to get a little better price, rather than do business more locally.

So back to the market idea. From my perspective, in the context of starting a for-profit co-op to provide basic goods and/or services, I think an alternative, peoples-market itself could/should be considered to be one of the essential services that could/should be one of the first enterprises.

I’ve given all this a lot of thought – for quite some time now. I agree with everything that has been said about working together and production, etc. That all needs to happen. But in addition to faith, vision, etc., it will take time, effort, energy and most-importantly, capital to make all that happen and get productive enterprises up and running. In the meantime, it wouldn't take near as much to get a market up and running. The other thing is, it’s pretty tough to make a living from most start-ups, including production enterprises, especially during the initial start-up phase. In most cases, like Jonesde said, you either have to have other resources, investment capital, another source of income, etc., to help bridge the gap. And my point is, if it was structured right, I think this whole alternative market concept could be a very viable for-profit business that could start generating net income much more quickly, and essentially right of the chute, and help start building resources of all kinds to get something more tangible and concrete going. And, when it comes to the production side of the equation, marketing is usually the biggest challenge, so it would be killing multiple important birds with one stone.

I have some more concrete ideas along that line, but I'm curious to hear other peoples' thoughts. I've got to take off again this morning, and will probably be out of the discussion loop for a couple days, but will try to catch up again when I get back.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:25 am

tmac wrote: [Brigham Young's] basic vision was that local communities and their residents would be (and always be) interdependent and self-sufficient in virtually every way, and that within not more than 50 miles there would be a "market town," if you will, or a bigger commercial hub, where you could get anything that you might not be able to get in your own small community, but without having to travel any farther than that. I think that concept makes a lot of sense.
I remember talking to a guy some years ago about all of this. We were at a big draft horse and equipment sale and swap meet in Oregon sponsored by Small Farmers Journal (held every spring, and also definitely worth checking out). He say "you know what has destroyed small towns don't you? -- cheap gas." There's a lot of truth to what he said. Cheap gas has allowed us to drive to Wal-mart and Costco to get a little better price, rather than do business more locally.

So back to the market idea. From my perspective, in the context of starting a for-profit co-op to provide basic goods and/or services, I think an alternative, peoples-market itself could/should be considered to be one of the essential services that could/should be one of the first enterprises.

I’ve given all this a lot of thought – for quite some time now. I agree with everything that has been said about working together and production, etc. That all needs to happen. But in addition to faith, vision, etc., it will take time, effort, energy and most-importantly, capital to make all that happen and get productive enterprises up and running. In the meantime, it wouldn't take near as much to get a market up and running. The other thing is, it’s pretty tough to make a living from most start-ups, including production enterprises, especially during the initial start-up phase. In most cases, like Jonesde said, you either have to have other resources, investment capital, another source of income, etc., to help bridge the gap. And my point is, if it was structured right, I think this whole alternative market concept could be a very viable for-profit business that could start generating net income much more quickly, and essentially right of the chute, and help start building resources of all kinds to get something more tangible and concrete going. And, when it comes to the production side of the equation, marketing is usually the biggest challenge, so it would be killing multiple important birds with one stone.

I have some more concrete ideas along that line, but I'm curious to hear other peoples' thoughts. I've got to take off again this morning, and will probably be out of the discussion loop for a couple days, but will try to catch up again when I get back.


Excellent points, again, Tmac -- and the time may come in the not-too-distant future when gas is very pricey/unavailable -- and then we will NEED the local people's markets. Even BB (which we have also used, less so lately) won't work well with high-priced gasoline.

Jules wrote:

I dream of living this way! Thanks for this thread Dr. Jones! I've actually thought of trying to implement a cooperative/barter system/network among several of us from the forum who may be interested, and some individuals I know from outside of the forum. (If I remember correctly, mes5464 has shared similar thoughts in other threads.) We all have so many diverse resources and talents and abilities, and we all know that this is the type of system the Lord intended for us to live - sharing and cooperating and unselfishly doing what will make our communities successful, rather than living for the purpose of "getting gain". I'd love to be able to have a network of friends I could rely upon and share what I can offer - especially when the crap hits the fan. Thank you again for this brainstorming opportunity, I truly value yours and the input of the others on this thread!


This is a good idea, Jules! A thread where folks could offer items for sale, between ourselves mostly. I have a 2-acre lot up in the mountains above Spring City, in Pine Creek Ranches that is currently for sale (for example), but this is with a real estate agent for another few months... And where is that rifle I thought I might sell??
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby mes5464 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:28 pm

DrJones wrote:This is a good idea, Jules! A thread where folks could offer items for sale, between ourselves mostly. I have a 2-acre lot up in the mountains above Spring City, in Pine Creek Ranches that is currently for sale (for example), but this is with a real estate agent for another few months... And where is that rifle I thought I might sell??


How much are you asking for the 2 acres?
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby DrJones » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Mes-- I'm asking $8k for the 2 acres in the mountains; negotiable part owner financing. By far the least expensive lot in Pine Creek Ranches -- where each lot as underground power and spring water available to it (piped in). But it is on a slope... neighbors have put in access roads and leveled out a spot; a guy would probably want to do that. See attached photo taken on the property last year.
2acres.jpg
2acres.jpg (202.37 KiB) Viewed 1370 times


Jules:
We have the "Exchange" section on the forum, viewforum.php?f=39 and maybe it's time to put it to good use and share, barter, sell, whatever - among those of us who are interested. Even in my current humble circumstances, I have plenty to share as well - and some things worthy of sale.

I've thought of doing this on a larger scale if it was possible. I mean if one of us has a fruit and vegetable farm, I'd love to trade eggs for produce on a regular basis. If someone has survival skills and knowledge, I'd love to learn from them - and teach herbology and homeopathy. If that concept grew into a community cooperative, where I knew I could go to a certain person for a need they could fulfill and trade for a skill or product or service they needed from me on a regular basis, it could be beneficial to all of us, especially already having something like that set up when things worsen in the world.


Right! totally agreed.
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Postby tmac » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:22 pm

Couldn't agree more about all the exchange ideas. I'm a big believer in essentially all forms of alternative markets and exchange enterprises/venues. In the intermountain west, ksl.com actually creates a fairly phenomenal alternative market/exchange. We just need more -- of all kinds.

I also finally found the book I was referring to earlier: New Genesis -- A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. It includes an essay titled "The Mormon Village: Model for Sustainability," with the sub-heading: "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). In addition to the points I mentioned before, the following is a quote from that essay that I have always found to be profound and right on target.

Brigham Young had a clear concept of how the Great Basin should be developed. Based on Joseph Smith's model, the self-sufficient Mormon Village was replicated over and over again. A commonwealth of villages was the intended result, a community of communities. Each village controlled its own water, food and fuel resources, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land. Irrigation systems developed through cooperation were responsible for the success of these dynamic new communities. The Mormon village exerted a strong influence on other planned communities in the West that somehow never achieved equal success.
. . . .

The Mormon pioneer village was an extraordinary example of a sustainable community. The pioneers knew well the critical systems on which they both depended and survived. Water from winter snow, stored in some form of reservoir, fed the planted fields in the hot dry summer. Fuel was harvested from the surrounding forest. LIfe was organized around the resources of the countryside, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land and natural resources.
. . . .

Despite the success of the Mormon village in an agrarian society, it never made an adequate adjustment to the industrial society. Unlike the Amish who held fast to their agrarian roots, the Mormon culture moved toward mainstream America and abandoned its agrarian tradition., Today, Utah is like any other western state; its main crop is hay for feeding cattle. Virtually all of its food and much of its fuel is imported, and fresh water in the mountains is no longer safe to drink. Self-sufficiency is a thing of the past.


Otherwise, I have some more food for thought for cooperative productive enterprises. I'll save that for a separate post.
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