Joseph Smith/Civil War

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Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

Rensai wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:To me, this "prophecy" is not speaking specifically of a second civil war, but rather a foreign war. It seems to suggest that America will come under attack by a powerful enemy.
The fact that the American Independent Party is mentioned doesn't in my view mean it is connected with these events. Rather, it is a sign that when this party comes into existence or prominence as a result of confrontation between the two main parties, we can expect the other events to unfold.
Other statements from Joseph make it clear he foresaw some kind of second civil war, but you may be correct as well. What did the kingmen and other defectors among the nephites do? They sought over and over to ally with the Lamanites to affect change that they couldn't achieve on their own. It could be a similar situation where we have those who want to overthrow the US allying with some foreign power. The tyrannical democrats are in many ways similar to the kingmen and like the kingmen, they've just be thoroughly rejected by the nation overall. I wonder if they'll follow the kingmen into treason....
How have the Democrats been thoroughly rejected by the nation? We must had a liberal for 8 yrs and Trump lost the popular vote and barely won in the swing states everyone is pointing to most, like Michigan, Wisconsin. He is the first candidate in history to the majority in both the general and the primaries and he'll probably be thrown out, bar an act of God which is very possible since it appears to me God raised Trump up-the whole thing defied all odds. Just not in an endorsement kind of way, but in this is a setup designed to bring about judgement and cleansing or at least hasten it and set the stage.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

A Random Phrase wrote:
Dragon wrote:Some say this prophecy was fulfilled in the 60's and the 'war' between the two parties was the war over civil liberties and equality. The IAP was formed after that time, however, the prophecy tells me the formation of the 3rd party will be the way the war ends. What's more, it suggests to me the IAP will become a major player if it is to have enough power to prevent war from breaking out again. This war is at most one or two election cycles away.

If you look at the rest of the quote, about WWIII, the conditions are nearly or already in place for the near demise of the US.
And remember this part of the scripture:
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
The remnant (American Indians) have yet to vex the Gentiles (those whose ancestry came from outside of the Americas) with a "sore vexation". Neither has the "consumption decreed" made a "FULL end of ALL nations". Not all of this scripture has been fulfilled.

And, did the slaves rise up against their masters in the 1800s? The war was begun by free people, wasn't it, though some slaves fought? Are we not slaves? Are there not signs of some of us rising up against the tyranny of the masters?
I'm sure the Lamanites will vex us more, but its clear they are vexing us a great deal, with sucking money out of the systems, bothering Americans, often on an unsound basis, Turing the country more liberal with voting power ( a concern) and in many other ways. They were center of the campaign, so its clear this prophecy is being fulfilled.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

AGalagaChiasmus wrote:My ponderings on this quote, before having read this thread, is that Brother Joseph was referring to the end of the nation existing as the "United States". We will have foreign invading armies enter, as typified by the Nephites in the BoM. I've also wondered if the "Independent American Party" is more equivalent to the Tea Party in structure and purpose regarding this quote. And a thought did occur while reading this thread.
You have to read prophecy carefully. It does not say the two parties will go to war with each other it just says that the two parties will go to war. A reasonable interpretation is that both parties are warmongers, there is no longer a "peace" party.
Perhaps it seems both Republicans and Democrats will turn on the Tea Party (as it's gaining ground with each election). Either way, I know I will see faction violence in one form or another in this country in my lifetime. :-ss
Which is interesting, bc the for the first time in a long Dems all over the country are mad at Russia. :))

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

Oldemandalton wrote:This 'prophecy' has been dubbed the 'White Horse Prophecy " and has been discredited by the Church. There have been other apostles and prophets who have mentioned civil strife and chaos in the latter days that makes the Civil War look like a picnic. No need to use dubious 'prophecies'. If you would like quotes I can post them latter. They're on my home computer.
OMD
The Mosiah Hancock prophecy is the White Horse prophecy? I thought they were separate?

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

Matthew.B wrote:
Oldemandalton wrote:Since the prophets saw state against state, city against city, neighbor against neighbor, father against son, do we call it a civil war as we had in the 1860s or is it closer to an attempted revolution or anarchy?

The ‘Civil War’ had two sides, two armies, two governments. The prophecies I have read sounds more like anarchy where if you don’t want to shed blood to protect yourself and your family you have to flee to Zion.

OMD
War- including the War of Invasion (attacked by Europe and Russia on the East coast, and China on the west coast)- precedes anarchy IIRC, but is a sure road to it.

I honestly could not see most Democracies wanting to align with Russia and destroy the last best hope of their Democracy and freedom-the U.S. Even if more on a subconscious level our presence deters a lot of chaos that would reign. Europe and others (particularly Israel) would not look as they do today. My bet would be China, Russia and Mexico would hop in capture some land. Islam is not really as big as a threat in this sense unless we someday see a United Arab States that covers all Persian, Arab, Egyptian, Pakistani, territory armed with nukes. They could align with Russia China in an invasion and add manpower, but I'm not sure. It seem Islam's (being that the more Muslims means the more extremist, not bc all are bad ppl) threat is more immigration such as in Europe, blowing people and worst getting a nuke. I could see them helping to bring Europe down far more than it is now. They like on 9/11 could hit us with a Russian or North Korea nuke, but in terms of world war and us getting nuked my thought is Russia is the greatest we face, whom according to Eziekal will align with Iran and others to destroy Israel.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

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chrisargyle18 wrote:Was Joseph Smith talking about American **== Civil War I or American **== Civil war II in this quote?

"There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States,” then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up—when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, “Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.” Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a hair, as it were."
"when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin." Is this Mormons?

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

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Farmer wrote:
Rensai wrote:
chrisargyle18 wrote:Was Joseph Smith talking about American **== Civil War I or American **== Civil war II in this quote?

"There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States,” then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up—when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, “Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.” Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a hair, as it were."
Definitely a second civil war in the future.
Agree. Definitely 2nd.
Even if there is only nuclear war would bring it. No Great Depression, no famine, nothing we haven't already seen will bring it. I'm sure there would more upheaval in an economic catastrophe like the Great Depression bc of how worse people are, but not enough for civil war. A nuclear holocaust would bring that.

brianj
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

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Aaronjs0005 wrote:I honestly don't see this being able to cause the level of warring described in some of the statements we've read. The free market, demand, the government, etc, would see it though. We send a lot of food overseas as well. I'm no expert and I could be wrong, but I honestly do not see what you are saying as being to cause warring in that manner. How would economic troubles cause that kind trouble. What kind of economic problems are you talking about? You don't believe no adjustments would take place? Earthquakes, tornadoes, things happen all the time. We've had a Great Depression. I'm just not seeing what your seeing as being able to cause wars from city to city, state to state, neighbor to neighbor.
I don't believe that we had anything near the level of societal stress that we do right now. It seems that at least some people are looking for an excuse or opportunity to riot or worse. Yes, the US and other nations have seen hyperinflation in the past, but at those times most people lived close enough to sources of food that they could go barter for food. There wasn't enough for a customary meal and the people were hungry, but few starved to death.

A major earthquake on the San Andreas fault in the Los Angeles area or the Bay Area is likely to damage or destroy bridges. Because of modern federal rules, every bridge on the interstate highways would have to be closed until they are inspected, and repaired if necessary. Overwhelmed law enforcement would not be in a position to deal with protests turning into riots, and stopping food deliveries for two or three days would further incite violence.

And there is something else I am seeing that you may not be considering. You are comparing prophesied events to past events in modern history. You are asking how it could happen; I am asking how it is going to happen.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

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The prophecy also relates to it starting in Chicago, there are many now pointing to a US civil war. 45% of american get some form of welfare an economic collapse and all that is gone - it is far worse than any other time in the history of the world.
Two article in the news today Waring about potential US civil war and Chicago meltdown.

Brandon Smith Warns The System Is Crashing: "Prepare For Bank Confiscations, Shortages, Insurgency"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-2 ... insurgency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Surging Chicago Murder Rates Single-Handedly Driving Up Overall National Average
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-2 ... al-average" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Rensai
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

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Aaronjs0005 wrote:
Rensai wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:To me, this "prophecy" is not speaking specifically of a second civil war, but rather a foreign war. It seems to suggest that America will come under attack by a powerful enemy.
The fact that the American Independent Party is mentioned doesn't in my view mean it is connected with these events. Rather, it is a sign that when this party comes into existence or prominence as a result of confrontation between the two main parties, we can expect the other events to unfold.
Other statements from Joseph make it clear he foresaw some kind of second civil war, but you may be correct as well. What did the kingmen and other defectors among the nephites do? They sought over and over to ally with the Lamanites to affect change that they couldn't achieve on their own. It could be a similar situation where we have those who want to overthrow the US allying with some foreign power. The tyrannical democrats are in many ways similar to the kingmen and like the kingmen, they've just be thoroughly rejected by the nation overall. I wonder if they'll follow the kingmen into treason....
How have the Democrats been thoroughly rejected by the nation? We must had a liberal for 8 yrs and Trump lost the popular vote and barely won in the swing states everyone is pointing to most, like Michigan, Wisconsin. He is the first candidate in history to the majority in both the general and the primaries and he'll probably be thrown out, bar an act of God which is very possible since it appears to me God raised Trump up-the whole thing defied all odds. Just not in an endorsement kind of way, but in this is a setup designed to bring about judgement and cleansing or at least hasten it and set the stage.
Yes, we had 8 years of Obama and its been a disaster. As a result, democrats lost big in most state positions as well as the house and senate and presidency.
Democrats Breaking Records: Control Fewest State Legislatures in History
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/jasonhopki ... y-n2244010
We had heard iterations of Democratic losses on the congressional level, but never such a large number of losses for Democrats in legislatures across the country.

Turns out, Roberts is correct.

Our analysis shows Democrats have lost 910 seats since Obama took office. (You can see the changes in every state here.)

We took a state-by-state look of lost seats from the best source available, the National Conference of State Legislatures. Using the group’s data, we compared the number of Democratic seats in early 2009, when Obama took office, to the number of seats after the 2014 midterms.

The bottom line: Republicans now control about 56 percent of the country’s 7,383 state legislative seats, up 12 percentage points since 2009.

Thirty-five states posted double-digit seat losses for the Democrats in state legislatures, including more than 50 seats each in Arkansas, New Hampshire and West Virginia.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... latures-o/
Seems like a pretty big rejection to me. Look at the desperate and despicable actions they've already taken. If the country continues rejecting them then who knows, maybe they could turn to a foreign power that's all I was saying. Its just one possible theory to show that the war could involve foreign powers as well as a civil war.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

Oldemandalton wrote:Since there is no “authorized” prophecy that America will be invaded we don’t really know if it will happen. It is a possibility though. I am more inclined to believe that our enemies, Russia/China/etc., will more than likely just launch an EMP attack, wait for the die out and then walk in unopposed. They know that America is full of weapons. (If on the other hand there is anarchy first then we will all be out of ammo protecting our families)That won’t stop the Mexican drug cartels from moving north to capture land, property and slaves.

Is John speaking here of WW III or WW IV? My guess is WW III. This is after the opening of the 7th seal and the ½ hour of silence. After 2021 which is only 10 years away.

Rev 9: 14-18
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.


Modern warfare with automatic weapons, tanks, planes and’ shock and awe’.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Nuclear Warfare.


OMD
I'm curious, is this exactly right after the half hour of silence or sometime after? I know this army will march across the Middle East so I expect it to be largely Muslims from all over in response to a break out related to Israel. If 1/3 is wiped out that wld seem to indicate the US got hit pretty hard as well. I guess Israel is what the eastern forces conclude must now be wiped out, particularly Muslims. I'm wondering bc I do believe the US going to get hit. Its the only possible way I cld see the New Jerusalem being built- a massive cleansing and renewal and I keep thinking that the NJ must be built soon and therefor a war that will facilitate that and fulfill the prophecy of the Elders stepping and saving a government practically in ruins must happen soon as I can't imagine these are events that happen 10 yrs bf 2nd coming for a variety of reasons and that can't be more than 90 yrs. My guess is 35 to 90, which means within the next 4 yrs something massive and earth shattering has got to give.

brianj
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by brianj »

Aaronjs0005 wrote:I'm curious, is this exactly right after the half hour of silence or sometime after? I know this army will march across the Middle East so I expect it to be largely Muslims from all over in response to a break out related to Israel. If 1/3 is wiped out that wld seem to indicate the US got hit pretty hard as well. I guess Israel is what the eastern forces conclude must now be wiped out, particularly Muslims. I'm wondering bc I do believe the US going to get hit. Its the only possible way I cld see the New Jerusalem being built- a massive cleansing and renewal and I keep thinking that the NJ must be built soon and therefor a war that will facilitate that and fulfill the prophecy of the Elders stepping and saving a government practically in ruins must happen soon as I can't imagine these are events that happen 10 yrs bf 2nd coming for a variety of reasons and that can't be more than 90 yrs. My guess is 35 to 90, which means within the next 4 yrs something massive and earth shattering has got to give.
Why don't you think it could happen within ten years?

I think that within one year of a social collapse we could be sending people to start building the city of Zion, and that everything prophesied to happen from the beginning of the tribulations to the Second Coming could take place within 10 years or less.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

brianj wrote:
Aaronjs0005 wrote:I honestly don't see this being able to cause the level of warring described in some of the statements we've read. The free market, demand, the government, etc, would see it though. We send a lot of food overseas as well. I'm no expert and I could be wrong, but I honestly do not see what you are saying as being to cause warring in that manner. How would economic troubles cause that kind trouble. What kind of economic problems are you talking about? You don't believe no adjustments would take place? Earthquakes, tornadoes, things happen all the time. We've had a Great Depression. I'm just not seeing what your seeing as being able to cause wars from city to city, state to state, neighbor to neighbor.
I don't believe that we had anything near the level of societal stress that we do right now. It seems that at least some people are looking for an excuse or opportunity to riot or worse. Yes, the US and other nations have seen hyperinflation in the past, but at those times most people lived close enough to sources of food that they could go barter for food. There wasn't enough for a customary meal and the people were hungry, but few starved to death.

A major earthquake on the San Andreas fault in the Los Angeles area or the Bay Area is likely to damage or destroy bridges. Because of modern federal rules, every bridge on the interstate highways would have to be closed until they are inspected, and repaired if necessary. Overwhelmed law enforcement would not be in a position to deal with protests turning into riots, and stopping food deliveries for two or three days would further incite violence.

And there is something else I am seeing that you may not be considering. You are comparing prophesied events to past events in modern history. You are asking how it could happen; I am asking how it is going to happen.
I am wondering how they will happen just as surely as you are. I know they will, but I know the Lord tends to work within the laws of free agency and nature, so if it happens its not going to happen in some super natural way. A recession can't do it. There has to be the right elements in order for it to happen and therefor comparing to the Great Depression is not misguided, as long as we recognize the time are different. People are more entitled and demanding. More miserable and wicked. I still don't see that as being enough. I personally believe of how corrupt this country is we would get hit nukes and that wld bring the right elements that wld bring that kind of chaos.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

Rensai wrote:
Aaronjs0005 wrote:
Rensai wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:To me, this "prophecy" is not speaking specifically of a second civil war, but rather a foreign war. It seems to suggest that America will come under attack by a powerful enemy.
The fact that the American Independent Party is mentioned doesn't in my view mean it is connected with these events. Rather, it is a sign that when this party comes into existence or prominence as a result of confrontation between the two main parties, we can expect the other events to unfold.
Other statements from Joseph make it clear he foresaw some kind of second civil war, but you may be correct as well. What did the kingmen and other defectors among the nephites do? They sought over and over to ally with the Lamanites to affect change that they couldn't achieve on their own. It could be a similar situation where we have those who want to overthrow the US allying with some foreign power. The tyrannical democrats are in many ways similar to the kingmen and like the kingmen, they've just be thoroughly rejected by the nation overall. I wonder if they'll follow the kingmen into treason....
How have the Democrats been thoroughly rejected by the nation? We must had a liberal for 8 yrs and Trump lost the popular vote and barely won in the swing states everyone is pointing to most, like Michigan, Wisconsin. He is the first candidate in history to the majority in both the general and the primaries and he'll probably be thrown out, bar an act of God which is very possible since it appears to me God raised Trump up-the whole thing defied all odds. Just not in an endorsement kind of way, but in this is a setup designed to bring about judgement and cleansing or at least hasten it and set the stage.
Yes, we had 8 years of Obama and its been a disaster. As a result, democrats lost big in most state positions as well as the house and senate and presidency.
Democrats Breaking Records: Control Fewest State Legislatures in History
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/jasonhopki ... y-n2244010
We had heard iterations of Democratic losses on the congressional level, but never such a large number of losses for Democrats in legislatures across the country.

Turns out, Roberts is correct.

Our analysis shows Democrats have lost 910 seats since Obama took office. (You can see the changes in every state here.)

We took a state-by-state look of lost seats from the best source available, the National Conference of State Legislatures. Using the group’s data, we compared the number of Democratic seats in early 2009, when Obama took office, to the number of seats after the 2014 midterms.

The bottom line: Republicans now control about 56 percent of the country’s 7,383 state legislative seats, up 12 percentage points since 2009.

Thirty-five states posted double-digit seat losses for the Democrats in state legislatures, including more than 50 seats each in Arkansas, New Hampshire and West Virginia.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... latures-o/
Seems like a pretty big rejection to me. Look at the desperate and despicable actions they've already taken. If the country continues rejecting them then who knows, maybe they could turn to a foreign power that's all I was saying. Its just one possible theory to show that the war could involve foreign powers as well as a civil war.
Your last point is a good one, especially if the nation rejects the Dems. I don't see that, but if so they cld seek outside help in overthrowing things.

Aaronjs0005
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Aaronjs0005 »

brianj wrote:
Aaronjs0005 wrote:I'm curious, is this exactly right after the half hour of silence or sometime after? I know this army will march across the Middle East so I expect it to be largely Muslims from all over in response to a break out related to Israel. If 1/3 is wiped out that wld seem to indicate the US got hit pretty hard as well. I guess Israel is what the eastern forces conclude must now be wiped out, particularly Muslims. I'm wondering bc I do believe the US going to get hit. Its the only possible way I cld see the New Jerusalem being built- a massive cleansing and renewal and I keep thinking that the NJ must be built soon and therefor a war that will facilitate that and fulfill the prophecy of the Elders stepping and saving a government practically in ruins must happen soon as I can't imagine these are events that happen 10 yrs bf 2nd coming for a variety of reasons and that can't be more than 90 yrs. My guess is 35 to 90, which means within the next 4 yrs something massive and earth shattering has got to give.
Why don't you think it could happen within ten years?

I think that within one year of a social collapse we could be sending people to start building the city of Zion, and that everything prophesied to happen from the beginning of the tribulations to the Second Coming could take place within 10 years or less.
I'm not sure if your asking why I don't think its the 2nd coming that can happen in ten yrs or that the elders stepping and the NJ being built I do not believe would happen within ten yrs of the 2nd coming which I believe is 35 to 90 yrs away.

The reason I don't think the 2nd coming is that soon (around 10 yrs) is it is Clear to me way too many things have to happen. Bf we even get to Armageddon there is like 2 or 3 world wars the Bible talks abt. (the 200 million man army and another we haven't had, but I need to study again so I can remember) They have not happened yet. A ldr name David must arise in the nation of Israel. A temple must be built there and I'm pretty sure by the priesthood, and the church has an agreement to not even proselyte I think until, abt 2030. That cld change but not yet.

Jews are not converting quick enough. The gathering of the 12 tribes has yet to see some of its greatest miracles, such as from the land of the north. The elders of Israel must step in and save the US. The NJ must be built and right now Independence is a very populated city and no one wld ever allow it. It will be a massive undertaking mostly built by Lamanites.I wld think more scripture comes forth unless that was referring to the Millennium. Also do not see how the 2nd coming is more than 90 yrs. I used to say 30 to 60, but have put it at 35 to 90. If its say 40yrs, the US being lost destroyed and the elders stepping in in my opinion must happen within 15 yrs and possibly even 4, which is in line with some of the stuff we are seeing.

I think Trump's Russian alliance will lead to it as it will destabilize other areas and they will go to war, eventually dragging us in, unless there is a conspiracy and they just come in and hit us, which I doubt. The elders stepping for many reasons I do not believe was a prophecy that was meant to be 10 or 15 yrs within time of 2nd coming. Its a prophecy meant to hold His kingdom high and as the world prays like it never has and to gather ppl in. It probably is how the NJ is built. It doesn't make any sense to me the NJ is built and the Lord comes back 7 yrs after that. NONE! There are lessons at play here and all kinds of eternal purposes. If I am right the NJ has to start within the next 15 or 20 if not sooner and the elders saving this land and Con sooner. "Trump" and his strange Russian connections cld be the set up and a huge key to this.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by BeNotDeceived »

pjbrownie wrote: February 25th, 2011, 10:10 am This one has yet to be verified by me, but here it is again:

Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote – A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:

“… My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860′s between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible.”

Another quote regarding the Civil War itself comes from an interview by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer, printed in the Deseret News on Friday, August 16, 1878:

Question: When will the temple be built in Independence?

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over

Question: What do you mean by that?

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over.
The D.C. Baseball shooter was from Chicago. Image

Stevieb
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Stevieb »

Oldemandalton wrote: October 6th, 2011, 9:04 am This 'prophecy' has been dubbed the 'White Horse Prophecy " and has been discredited by the Church. There have been other apostles and prophets who have mentioned civil strife and chaos in the latter days that makes the Civil War look like a picnic. No need to use dubious 'prophecies'. If you would like quotes I can post them latter. They're on my home computer.
OMD
I would like the list of quotes.
Last edited by Stevieb on January 16th, 2018, 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Silver
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Silver »

Stevieb wrote: January 15th, 2018, 9:33 pm
Oldemandalton wrote: October 6th, 2011, 9:04 am This 'prophecy' has been dubbed the 'White Horse Prophecy " and has been discredited by the Church. There have been other apostles and prophets who have mentioned civil strife and chaos in the latter days that makes the Civil War look like a picnic. No need to use dubious 'prophecies'. If you would like quotes I can post them latter. They're on my home computer.
OMD
I would like the list of quotes. Can you email me? Wil11046@byui.edu
Unfortunately...
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gardener4life
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by gardener4life »

OK, so ...there are a couple of reasons why you have to be careful interpreting this too broadly. It could mean a world war instead of a civil war. It may look initially like a civil war and resemble one and even be tagged by one. And it's true that we've been involved in every world war and that there will be further wars. It can represent war filling the Earth slowly over time (like WW1, WW2, and WW3 with short breaks between them only to buy time to build up warms again as suggested by one of the prophets already; George Albert Smith I think? said this) or a single very identifiable war. It can possibly mean the start of the third world war, which if you watch the news you can tell that we're going to be the start of which matches this. We're the 'boss of the world'. So whatever happens to us will kick off events in other countries; that matches the wording of this now. So if the boss of the world has a civil war, very soon every else that has had their military built up...like they are doing now will have no one holding them in check.

We can see the scriptures being fulfilled before our very eyes. Things are happening.

The Section that is the source for this is D&C Section 87

Also the consumption of nations scriptures show that we're not necessarily saving the country but saving the beliefs and spiritual idea of the Constitution for use in the Millenium. The ideas of the Constitution will live on in the Millenium (D&C 109 suggests this) but the gross worldliness of our current nation won't live on (in part because we cast out the poor and rob the future of the poor to feed the mighty man and the rich). That's why the quote of we'll save the Constitution can be misleading. But a lot of good can be done by believing that and trying to preserve it as long as we can until His Coming. And it's true that a lot of good is being done by the revival going on in our country to try to make things better and get back to a foundation of God. Who knows? If people even tried hard enough they might even be able to bring prayer back in public schools. (Why didn't people fight back against that? That makes no sense.)

There is a consumption decreed and end to all nations as part of before the Savior comes back and that 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ'. (How can you accomplish that if the Gentiles remain as Gentile Nations instead of becoming aware of an better more enduring stable eternal identity, and remain in their blindness and ignorance, worshiping ourselves, our idols, and our own government and celebrities, and our machines & craftiness? Someday that will change. And you can see those changes happening.)

I would point out something you've seen in other quotes; The children of Israel separating from Egypt is a parable of the Gathering of Israel. Without realizing it you've heard this from other sources, but worded slightly different but having this meaning. IF the Gentile Nations and Babylon state were to remain then wouldn't the Israelites have stayed in Egypt? They could not while retaining an eternal spiritual identity. And at some point Egypt decided to commit harm, and put Israel in bondage. Parable of the Wheat And Tares, and Parable of the 10 Virgins mesh with this concept to reveal what will happen in the Last Days, some time after the gospel fills the whole world, or filled as much as is in our power to do so in being accountable to the Savior.

Doctrine and Covenants 87:6

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;

Isaiah 10:22 (2 Nephi 20)

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

I would point out something else. Why do these things have to happen? The story of Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt reveals part of this and fits with verse 7.

D&C 87 verse 7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

Both in the story of Moses and in the last days this consumption decreed and many of the tribulations, plagues, and so on will occur to save the innocents of God, and the righteous from the hands of the wicked. We hear some of the things happening in the scriptures and wonder why they have to happen. But if we listen we can see it's the mercy and love of God that he will hear the cries of his faithful and those that love him, against the hands of those that would try to destroy them.

Consider the disciples in Jesus' day. Sometimes he'd say something and then they'd say... "Lord what meaneth...x x x and x." Then he'd have to explain it many times. And they'd usually have leaned on an understanding of the temporal world too much in their interpretations of scriptures. That's OK they were trying. I still respect them. But you can see how limited their view is and how limited our view is. We can easily miss the meanings because we just don't have the infinite wisdom that Christ had.

Reylani
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Reylani »

Aaronjs0005 wrote: December 18th, 2016, 12:02 am How can you guys be sure this means civil war? It sounds more like a war of words between 2 parties and then world war breaks out and we are obviously the main target.
It is 2021. The republicans and democrats are seething with hate and distrust. The enemies of the Unites States have preparec for war for decades. The riots at the capitol yesterday, i believe, have begun the 7 years tribulation. We are entering a warring period. Be prepared. I believe we will fall to civil war, then outer war, then be descended upon by other enemies. We will have to flee for our lives. The republicans won't stand for oppression and the democrats will oppress. War is here. I will not partake of the bloodshed until it is righteous, which it is not yet.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Reylani wrote: January 7th, 2021, 11:40 am
Aaronjs0005 wrote: December 18th, 2016, 12:02 am How can you guys be sure this means civil war? It sounds more like a war of words between 2 parties and then world war breaks out and we are obviously the main target.
It is 2021. The republicans and democrats are seething with hate and distrust. The enemies of the Unites States have preparec for war for decades. The riots at the capitol yesterday, i believe, have begun the 7 years tribulation. We are entering a warring period. Be prepared. I believe we will fall to civil war, then outer war, then be descended upon by other enemies. We will have to flee for our lives. The republicans won't stand for oppression and the democrats will oppress. War is here. I will not partake of the bloodshed until it is righteous, which it is not yet.
Hey Reylani,

It’s good to see you.

Lani may mean heaven, or maybe not?

Anyways, what are you meaning by “outer” war?

Sorry for two questions, right off the bat, and welcome aboard.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Joseph Smith/Civil War

Post by Bronco73idi »

BeNotDeceived wrote: January 7th, 2021, 1:55 pm
Reylani wrote: January 7th, 2021, 11:40 am
Aaronjs0005 wrote: December 18th, 2016, 12:02 am How can you guys be sure this means civil war? It sounds more like a war of words between 2 parties and then world war breaks out and we are obviously the main target.
It is 2021. The republicans and democrats are seething with hate and distrust. The enemies of the Unites States have preparec for war for decades. The riots at the capitol yesterday, i believe, have begun the 7 years tribulation. We are entering a warring period. Be prepared. I believe we will fall to civil war, then outer war, then be descended upon by other enemies. We will have to flee for our lives. The republicans won't stand for oppression and the democrats will oppress. War is here. I will not partake of the bloodshed until it is righteous, which it is not yet.
Hey Reylani,

It’s good to see you.

Lani may mean heaven, or maybe not?

Anyways, what are you meaning by “outer” war?

Sorry for two questions, right off the bat, and welcome aboard.
I think outer war definition is the war that will be fought by a foreign invader.

Reylani is tying the civil war and the invasion from China together. Joseph Smith prophesied about both wars. I personally think the sixth seal earthquake will happen between the 2.

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